Howdy,
I've got a customer who wants 10" wide plain sawn walnut for flooring to install in a job they are doing. I can't imagine what the seasonal movement would be between two 10" wide boards, but it must be huge. After i explained this the guy said, its okay we are face nailing and back relief cutting????? How does this make them not shrink? He said that is what was on the floor when water damaged it, and that is what they are putting back.
I made the mistake of making 5" wide plain sawn maple floors. The problem isn't so much the individual shrinkage but the poly glues them together pretty good so 3 stick together making one seam open up more than the T&G in width. Great for dirt. I see this advertised all over. "Wide plank pine floors", i don't think these are quartersawn or laminate. How can it work? Would the gap be about 1/2"? If you put down really dry, then it would expand and crush the fibers in the one next to it and shrink back down to same gap size. I hate the look of my floors and wish i stuck with 2 3/4" wide. I now know there is a reason why all flooring was made this way for so long. Its what works.
they want the walnut anyhow, how can i make sure they don't think my lumber is behaving any different then what they are replacing? Its not laminate, snap lock, veneer, or quarter sawn. How about the resawn barn beam flooring popular right now? That is quite wide. Shouldn't work very well either. Thoughts?
Thanks
kelvin
I don't see too many people buying wide plank these days. Some of the nicer custom houses in Lake Forest (north suburb of Chicago) were putting this in at $15 to $20 per square foot installed. Most used dyed rope pounded into the gaps after the stain had dried. This tended to keep small children from falling through the cracks. I think they used a marine carpenter who was familiar with restoring luxury boats. A customer of mine was sawing old pine warehouse timbers for this until the bottom fell out in 2006-2007. He use oakum and braided jute on gaps 1/8-1/2.
Wide will surely cause problems. I would make sure that they knew precisely the moisture content of your wood, so then if problems erupt, they knew what they had going in.
I've seen and sawn quite a few wide floors, pine and cypress. Some have been as wide as 20+ inch boards. They do open up and most aren't tongue and grooved. It's a look that a lot of people like. Living on a floor like that allows the oils and dust in the air to make a grout in the seams. It is quite attractive eventually. The grout is usually quite dark. It's not the look for someone who wants a modern, tight floor, but for a lodge or rustic home, it really looks good. Oh! And what a conversation piece each board becomes. It becomes more than just a floor, it becomes a bunch of pretty boards.
Each to his own, I guess. :)
Here is an outfit with a design office in chicago. I think they are out of NH.
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/chicago/river-north/carlisle-wide-plank-floors-047331
Kelvin it depends on how dry your stock is after machining. If it's green than yeah, 1/2" - 5/8" shrinkage for sure. If your around the EMC for your climate when machining, then a lot less movement. And with each seasonal movement, the difference in shrinkage cycles narrows. It won't diminish, there will still be shrinkage. But the greatest shrinkage is in the first cycle, then as time goes on the movement of this year is the same as the next.
wide plank is not an unusual thing around here. lots of it in high end homes in aspen area. flooring that is KD is usually brought to the job and left to acclimate to our humidity levels for quite some time. i have not known of it to be a problem around here. most of it is installed over radiant slab, and that keeps it DRY. i have an 8" wide pine floor in my house and have never noticed any seasonal changes.
My dad's house has 12" spruce floors in one room; face-nailed, no T&G, just like your customer is planning on doing. I think that your customer understands that nails are flexible and will allow the seasonal movement that will inevitably occur. He probably doesn't think that the nailing will stop the movement. The cracks will be nowhere near 1/2". The cracks in my dad's floor in the winter are about 1/8". I think it looks nice. Just make sure the lumber is well-dried before it's installed. Probably best to install it in the summer, because the floor can actually buckle if it's installed in the winter and then expands in the summer. I've seen it happen. Cracks are much more tolerable than 1" humps in your floor.
My house was built in 1993 and early 94.
My floors are kiln dried Maple in the kitchen, from 2" to 8" wide T&G end matched and they move.
The living room and halls and den are cherry KD 3" to 9" wide T&G end matched and they move too!
The Bedrooms are eastern White Pine T&G from 14" t0 18" inches air dried .
All move but not too much.
The pine of course moves the most, with gaps if maybe 1/16 to 1/8" which close in the summer.
All are screwed up from underneath with SR screws.
The problem came when they were finished with a product called Pacific Strong.
It is STRONG alright.
when the floors started to shrink, it split quite a few boards ripping the top of the grooves, keeping the seams between the boards constant..
My pine floor has split a few boards this winter after 15 years!
Looks ugly at first, but adds character. in MHO.
I have been looking into this myself, and I think most of your problem Kelvin is yours is glued down.
If nailed down dry (or screwed from underneath) on rosin paper It will help minimize the big gaps avery few board issues. You will have seasonal gaps, but hey, thats part of the fun!
With today's temperature and humidity controlled homes, massive shrinkage and expansion should not be an issue if the wood is properly dried and permitted to acclimate to its new home prior to installation.
I laid 3/4"x12" kiln dried pine over two subfloors - spruce and hemlock - in a 180 year old house.
Non-T&G - using hand wrought nails. The house goes from 60% to around 85% humidity annually.
In the summer the boards are tight - very few gaps. In the winter with the wood stove going - there are spots
you can drop a dime in - but very few as well.
I stained and covered with 6 coats of durathane. That was 7 years ago and we need to lightly sand and apply more coats this year. The space is roughly 500sqft kitchen area - heavy use with farm life and young children
re: the dimes!
lloyd
I am also interested in this subject. I have 300 sqft of 8'' wide denim pine drying for some flooring to be used in the home I am planning. My concerns are why would you not tongue and groove the edges and what would be the nailing pattern for face nailing?
Quote from: DWM II on April 07, 2009, 07:06:05 PM
My concerns are why would you not tongue and groove the edges and what would be the nailing pattern for face nailing?
Ditto the T&G comment. Is there a reason that you would not T&G? Is there a witdth limit beyond which T&G is not a good idea? I am planning on 6"wide boards.
Quote from: brdmkr on April 07, 2009, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: DWM II on April 07, 2009, 07:06:05 PM
My concerns are why would you not tongue and groove the edges and what would be the nailing pattern for face nailing?
Ditto the T&G comment. Is there a reason that you would not T&G? Is there a witdth limit beyond which T&G is not a good idea? I am planning on 6"wide boards.
We T&G all the flooring we see. We make as wide as 10" fllo boards. You do lose a little footage when profiling, about a 1/4". With the T&G you get a floor that is interlocked and where the gaps, if they develop, are shallow. This will keep dirt from getting under the floor and eliminates possibly seeing the subfllo. However, if your fllo shrinks more than the width of the tongue, you are probably better without the T&G.
Mark
Thanks for the info guys. Interesting to see how this works sometimes. Can't quite figure, but i guess it has something to do with central air conditioning around here keeping the summer humidity down, and humidifiers in the winter on the furnace. That would stablize the humidity swings. My floors are terrible though. I'm really mad about how they got glued by the poly and have created 1/4" gaps where the T&G isn't enough to hold the flooring. That was something i hadn't counted on.
Thanks all,
kelvin
Kelvin, If you think about it most of the flooring laid these days comes out of a big box store and is already prefinished. So then you don't have to worry about poly gluing the floor together. My 2 3/4 oak floor pulls apart in the winter quite a bit (1/8). Of course that's with wood heat. I have been thinking about doing a wider floor in my kitchen. Now I'm wondering if I should stick with the 2 3/4.
Around here lots of floors are "ship lapped" instead of t&g´d, meaning the edges are rabbeted to make a tight joint.
Quote from: ellmoe on April 08, 2009, 06:46:00 AM
Quote from: brdmkr on April 07, 2009, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: DWM II on April 07, 2009, 07:06:05 PM
My concerns are why would you not tongue and groove the edges and what would be the nailing pattern for face nailing?
Ditto the T&G comment. Is there a reason that you would not T&G? Is there a witdth limit beyond which T&G is not a good idea? I am planning on 6"wide boards.
We T&G all the flooring we see. We make as wide as 10" fllo boards. You do lose a little footage when profiling, about a 1/4". With the T&G you get a floor that is interlocked and where the gaps, if they develop, are shallow. This will keep dirt from getting under the floor and eliminates possibly seeing the subfllo. However, if your fllo shrinks more than the width of the tongue, you are probably better without the T&G.
How would groove and groove with a spline work? You'd have more room for movement?
Just wonderin if anyones tried it, and what happened.
Face-nailing gives a more rustic appearace to floors, so if you want a more rustic look then you face-nail. If you face-nail, there's no good reason to tongue and groove. It's more work, more wear on your tools, and uses more wood. Our face-nailed floors have four cut nails equally spaced on each joist (they're 11" wide, but nominally 1x12). Tongue and groove joints hide the nails, but they have less holding power the wider the boards (you would be using half as many nails for 6" floorboards than you would for 3" floorboards). I would be nervous about using tongue and groove on floorboards much wider than 6 or 8"
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on April 14, 2009, 03:03:18 PM
Face-nailing gives a more rustic appearace to floors, so if you want a more rustic look then you face-nail. If you face-nail, there's no good reason to tongue and groove. It's more work, more wear on your tools, and uses more wood. Our face-nailed floors have four cut nails equally spaced on each joist (they're 11" wide, but nominally 1x12). Tongue and groove joints hide the nails, but they have less holding power the wider the boards (you would be using half as many nails for 6" floorboards than you would for 3" floorboards). I would be nervous about using tongue and groove on floorboards much wider than 6 or 8"
Dodgy, I have kicked around the idea of using cut nails on our floor for the squared-off top. I am assuming that you used tapered cut nails. Do they hold well? I was concerned about them backing out.
My youngest son works for the wide plank flooring company in New Hampshire mentioned in another post. I was able to get a plank floor when they were cleaning out the warehouse. It is 8" face width antique oak, made from old barn wood complete with knots, checks, and a few characteristics of old wood. Each piece was stressed relieved on the back side milled to 3/4" thickness.
The floor set piled in our mud room where there is a wood stove from November to March last year. I removed the carpet in our family room then face screwed and plugged the oak planks to the plywood subfloor, 1500 plugs and screws. I took special care to get each piece as tight together as possible and picked a dry time of the year to install the floor. I sanded the floor to get all the plugs even.
For finish I applied Tung oil that was diluted 50/50 with Citrus terpenes (citris solvent). It took 6 applications before the floor stopped absorbing the Tung oil mixture. During the summer humidity the floor behaved well. The next winter with the lower humidity I saw some shrinkage but nothing more than 1/16".
The space between the boards in my case adds to the character of the antique oak and I really like the color the tung oil gave to the floor. I think those who want the wide board look are also expecting there to be some reasonable space between the boards.
Randy
Quote from: RSteiner on April 15, 2009, 08:17:19 AM
My youngest son works for the wide plank flooring company in New Hampshire mentioned in another post. I was able to get a plank floor when they were cleaning out the warehouse. It is 8" face width antique oak, made from old barn wood complete with knots, checks, and a few characteristics of old wood. Each piece was stressed relieved on the back side milled to 3/4" thickness.
The floor set piled in our mud room where there is a wood stove from November to March last year. I removed the carpet in our family room then face screwed and plugged the oak planks to the plywood subfloor, 1500 plugs and screws. I took special care to get each piece as tight together as possible and picked a dry time of the year to install the floor. I sanded the floor to get all the plugs even.
For finish I applied Tung oil that was diluted 50/50 with Citrus terpenes (citris solvent). It took 6 applications before the floor stopped absorbing the Tung oil mixture. During the summer humidity the floor behaved well. The next winter with the lower humidity I saw some shrinkage but nothing more than 1/16".
The space between the boards in my case adds to the character of the antique oak and I really like the color the tung oil gave to the floor. I think those who want the wide board look are also expecting there to be some reasonable space between the boards.
Randy
The only thing I would have been concerned about was the humidity rising in the summer and the floor pushing together. I'm glad it worked out though.
Breadmaker,
Our humidity in GA is fierce. If a wide floor is put down at a very low moisture content typical of our northern brethren, I expect that we would see expansion and buckling. Anything below about 8 - 9% would be risky. Shrinkage is much easier to design in than expansion in our climate.
Brdmkr: looks like you have competition :D. To answer your question, the cut nails hold very, very well. More tenaciously than round nails, I would say. We didn't actually install the floor, though. The previous owner put them in, and he did an excellent job.
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on April 15, 2009, 09:47:12 PM
Brdmkr: looks like you have competition :D.
I suggest that boardmaker can type better than me. Four less letters logs me on faster ;)
One of the issues I have seen with T&G is a little inconsistency with the face width can create gaps. A friend installed a heart pine T&G floor that consisted of boards with face widths of 4",6",and 8" which he face nailed with antique looking cut nails. The face width varied a little over 1/32" from board to board making it necessary to match each run to minimize gaps in the beginning.
With plank flooring if you had a slight variation, which I did on mine, I ripped those that needed it so they were all the exact same width. Being a machinist I think I am a little too fussy about fit.
I have 250 sq. ft. of 8" T&G heart pine I am going to install in the kitchen area soon which has been piled all winter in the house in the same room as the wood stove. The humidity should be about average when I get to install it. I didn't have any buckling issues with the antique oak floor although in the summer the floor is tight, not gaps.
When it comes to durable finishes in a high traffic area what works good on a soft wood floor? I think I will have to remind my wife that the floor is going to get distressed looking as time goes by.
Randy
I think it's hard to beat a good oil-based polyurethane for durability and water-resistance. A satin or semi-gloss sheen will show fewer scratches and imperfections than a high-gloss.