My Stihl 361 purchased March 2006 has only been used by me for homeowner use.
It stopped dead and the dealer says it's seized ($500 repair). They looked at the gas and said it was improper mix, not enough oil. I have Babied! this saw. It was my pride and joy. From the day I bought it, I emptied my one gallon gas can and mixed single gallon Stihl HP Ultra. I made a point of measuring the gas as one gallon exactly form the pump.
What could have gone wrong? I see nothing but positives about this saw. Is anyone having trouble with Stihl HP Ultra oil? The dealer seemed to judge by color. Is the HP Ultra just lighter in color? Any Ideas?
I asked the dealer to check into it and they seemed to listen to me but the saw is our of warranty so I'm probably screwed.
Honestly, if could figure any thing I did wrong I'd just pony up and buy a new one but with no explanation I don't know what to do.
Welcome to the forum.
Maybe pull the spark plug and see what color it is. If there's a rubber boot between the carb and cylinder that may be suspect too. I'm sure others here will know more than me, mostly wanted to say hi. :) TT
That's a bummer. Any chance that the mix can be tested, or a clear glass of it be compared to a normal Stihl mix?
I'd sure want more evidence of a bad mix (albeit, if the saw doesn't work, and it is out of warranty, it may be a moot point).
Wish you luck in learning the cause. I guess I might question myself if I really remembered to put the oil in with the gas, if this happened to me. Sometimes I operate on cruise control, and just think I did something. ::) ::)
Welcome to the forum. As a fellow MS361 owner, I appreciate what you are going through. Purchased it in '04.
I would sure look at it for yourself to make sure its that messed up or bring it to another shop. The stihl oil I have been using in my 361 is kind of a different color, a greenish yellow. I use 40-1 in all the newer stuff I have. Did you run it till it seized up? My father inlaw ran his homelight xl with no oil till it ran hot enough to seize and after we put 40-1 in it and he's used it ever since. good luck
For testing the gas for oil, I normally put a drop of the suspect fuel on a piece of paper, and put a drop of another batch, that I KNOW is correct, on another paper. Then I leave it for some minutes, to let the gas evaporate, and just compare the spots left by the oil. Quick and dirty, but it is easy to see, if it has more or less oil than the correct. It will show too, if I have used diesel instead of gas! Don't ask how I know!!!
I'd say just the dealer trying to pass the buck blaming it on the gas, most new saws are set to lean thanks to the EPA, the factory RPM specs are too high, too lean thanks to the EPA and if set there soon as you get in a long hard cut they burn up. Steve
Thanks for all your replies. I don't think I messed up on the mix. I always run the one gallon can till empty then use a single sized Stihl HP Ultra for each tank. Believe me I've been trying to think of everything. Could the fill on the Stihl oil be inconsistent? I know I didn't skip a mix. There is oil in my current can, just not enough per dealer.
Does anyone else use the HP ultra? It was specifically recommended to me when I bought the saw. I have read in the past that some use a higher mix ratio. The Stihl oil recommends 50 to 1 and I followed that.
Most saw owners refuse to adjust their own carbs and they for sure refuse to remove the limiter caps to adjust the carbs out of fear of "voiding the warranty". ::)
Well, you see just how good that warranty is when the saw lean seizes. Unfortunately we're seeing a lot of this with the ethanol in the gas. Gas can no longer be stored for months and still be used safely. I used to be able to use 6-8 month old fuel with no problems, but now I can tell the difference after 3-4 weeks. The alcohol settles out and the resulting fuel causes your saw to run lean. Combine this with the fact that saws at delivery are set on the razor edge of too lean to begin with and it only takes a few episodes of using bad fuel to burn one up.
how did the saw run right bf it seized? were there problems with idle or erratic running? how old was the gas in the tank? i would follow the recommendations on testing the gas on paper. that way you at least know if you did in fact have oil in the mix. i don't think the repair should be $500. maybe $350 or so. if it only needs a piston and cylinder, a good tech can do that swap in less than an hour. if you are fairly handy with tools it is a pretty easy job to do-it-yourself. don' fear this repair. two cycle engines are very simple to work on. if you pull the cylinder you may find that you only need a piston. post some pics. if you are not comfortable with the thought of repairing it yourself, i would take it to another dealer for a second opinion. the worst case scenario is that you put the saw on ebay and get yourself $250-$300.
on yeah, i have run ultra exclusively for the past two years with no problems. the only thing i don't like it that it is harder to tell if you oil in the gas. every once in a while you doubt yourself. i wish stihl would put more color in the ultra.
Thanks again for good replies. The saw ran fine before it died. The only thing I remember is it rev'ed high at the end of the tank. I've always run till empty thinking it was better to fill with new tank of gas. It always rev's up for the last 2 seconds before empty. Actually this seem a little more noticeable on my Stihl string trimmer.
I remember on the last tank noticing the rev on the last cut maybe 3 seconds, no longer. I filled the tank again with the same gas can. It started fine but ran 30 seconds then died and was seized. Starter cord wouldn't pull.
I use fresh gas. That's why I only use 1 gal tank. Maybe 1 tank of gas lasted as long as 3-4 months since I bought the saw. I used to use Stabil with every tank but I stopped a few years ago because I understood that Stihl oils included a stabilizer. Does anyone know if that is right?
If your stihl dealer is like the ones around here, they're crooks. Dealers are just that, dealers. They'll tell you an outragous price too repair it, so you'll buy a new one. Did they give you the rebuild price without takin' it apart? I like my stihl saws, but hate the "certified" idiot behind the counter. Maybe the Stihl company should now about these people, or maybe they already know? What level of authority is to blame?
It's not a good idea to run a saw until it's completely out of fuel .
I wouldn't take a dealers word for anyhing ,they are in business to make money you know . Of course if a person were not mechanically inclined I suppose you have no other choice but to .
On a light sieze,it that is truely the case ,they can often be saved with a little cylinder clean up and a new set of rings .I've saved a lot of them . They ran fine,maybe less than perfect but are still in service today .
Don't keep mixed fuel for much longer than a few months .Stick it in the lawnmower or something to use it up .The old mower could care less if it contains a little bit of oil .
Quote from: blizer on May 16, 2009, 07:59:25 AM
The only thing I remember is it rev'ed high at the end of the tank. I've always run till empty thinking it was better to fill with new tank of gas. It always rev's up for the last 2 seconds before empty.
..............
I remember on the last tank noticing the rev on the last cut maybe 3 seconds, no longer. I filled the tank again with the same gas can. It started fine but ran 30 seconds then died and was seized. Starter cord wouldn't pull.
When the saw runs on an empty tank, the fuel leans out too much.Automatically the 2 stroke oil too leans out.
If the piston seizes due to this, the engine will show the symptoms of having run on too little oil or no oil at all.
This could be the reason for the dealer to have told you that you were using the wrong fuel mix.More of a case of too little fuel mix.
As Al says, this kind of seize is usually very light and the piston is salvageable.
If you are up to a DIY job,you could save that 500 bucks, probably without changing even the rings.
Joe
Just talked to the store manager (Winchester Equipment, Winchester,VA). He corrected prior claim of too lean mix. He called Stihl rep, the HP Ultra is just lighter in color. They tested it and mix is fine. He says it a light seize, "Just one spot". Nothing else wrong on saw. He's checking to see if Stihl will cover repair.
I am disappointed how quickly the service dept blamed me and dismissed my initial questions. I almost walked away from it before I asked for the store manager.
We'll see how they take it from here.
Hopefully they will help you, but as others have said running them until empty makes a too lean condition. If you do that repeatedly it won't be good. Good luck.
Quote from: blizer on May 16, 2009, 09:42:48 AM
Just talked to the store manager (Winchester Equipment, Winchester,VA). He corrected prior claim of too lean mix. He called Stihl rep, the HP Ultra is just lighter in color. They tested it and mix is fine. He says it a light seize, "Just one spot". Nothing else wrong on saw. He's checking to see if Stihl will cover repair.
I am disappointed how quickly the service dept blamed me and dismissed my initial questions. I almost walked away from it before I asked for the store manager.
We'll see how they take it from here.
Well at least they're working on getting it right now so give them a little credit. I would be disappointed also but it does pay to be an informed consumer.
Your experience with saws sounds like mine. I don't have a great deal of "hands on" so I do a lot of reading. Picked up two things from people that have real experience:
1) NEVER let the saw run out of gas on full rev. I think you now know why he said it.
2) If your not going to use your gas in 4 - 6 weeks get rid of it and mix new. Gasoline blends today just won't hold up to storage, even short term. Ethanol separates and attracts moisture.
Like you, I'm trying to figure out how to keep my saws running long-term. This is my $0.02 and hope it helps. If I'm wrong about the above, I hope someone here will correct me. Doing my best to avoid mistakes.
If it were me. Pull the the cylinder and see how bad it is. It sounds like it will clean up. If you need a piston meteor sales a replacement for $35 with rings. If you dont need a piston and the cyl clean up. I would put a set of rings in it.
361's come alive with a simple muffler mod to let them breath. Then pull the H side limiter cap and adjust your carb.
I dont trust dealers words either, ask to be shown the scoring.
Quote from: Ironmower on May 16, 2009, 08:07:01 AM
If your stihl dealer is like the ones around here, they're crooks. Dealers are just that, dealers. They'll tell you an outragous price too repair it, so you'll buy a new one. Did they give you the rebuild price without takin' it apart? I like my stihl saws, but hate the "certified" idiot behind the counter. Maybe the Stihl company should now about these people, or maybe they already know? What level of authority is to blame?
Sure doesn't describe my Stihl dealer. I keep worrying he will retire soon, and then I don't know what/where I would go. Not overly impressed with the others who are available. Bottom line, I am spoiled. :) :)
Never... ever... ever... run a 2 stroke out of fuel... you lean seized the saw. If you think you are gettin' close to runnin' out of fuel while cuttin'... stop and refuel. Expensive lesson learned here.
If the saw come up in RPM's like that for ANY reason... shut ti down... it's either runnin' out of fuel or has an air leak somewhere.
Always runnin' a saw out of fuel just to put a new tank of fuel in it is silly... especially while runnin' it all day.
Gary
Gary is correct. Sounds like your little habit is what seized your saw. I suggest you never ever ever do that again, because every 100 or 150 times it will cost you an engine. This goes for ANY two cycle motor. The oil is in the fuel, so if it's running out of fuel then it's running out of oil as well. And if you've been running it hard for 15-20 minutes then it's good and hot, the last thing you want to do is keep it revving while you starve it of oil as it runs out of fuel.
Too many times people create silly little habits that usually do more harm than good. And they never mention them until after the damage is done. :(
Quote from: Rocky_J on May 16, 2009, 06:49:37 PM
Too many times people create silly little habits that usually do more harm than good. And they never mention them until after the damage is done. :(
Also lots of "Old wives tales" on how equipment should be maintained... "There was the old geezer that lived down the road from me and my pops... he said to always soak your chains in oil overnight before using them, and to always wrap the airfilter with a womens panty for extra protection from sawdust." :D
Some learn weird things like this from people they have known a long time, and respect their opinion... whether it's right or wrong. Lots of "overengineering" and wrong info gets put out this way... or because "That's how we've always done it."
Gary
Let me interject a thought here .Running out of fuel while cutting is not the same as purging the fuel prior to long term storage .
For the later ,start the saw,then shut it off and drain the tank.Restart and let it idle before it dies from fuel starvation which on a Stihl could take 5 minutes on an empty tank .
Very risky once again to run a saw out of fuel while at speed .
I've run 2 stihl 036's and a 361 for 10+ years and never lost an engine yet, and I always run out of fuel, although I shut her down at the first sign of over reving. Sounds more like gasoline seperation to me (ethanol). I just re built a 026 that the dealer told me needed a new piston and jug rebuild ($350). It cost me 30 dollars for parts and I did the labor myself. If nothing else I would take it to an independent shop and get it torn down. If you are out of warranty you have nothing to loose.
So have you decided what you're going to do? A top end on a chainsaw is a fairly simple project, and you should be able to rebuild it yourself for alot less $ than your dealership. Even if you have to buy a few new tools. ;)
:) TT
Quote from: Al_Smith on May 16, 2009, 10:33:04 PM
Let me interject a thought here .Running out of fuel while cutting is not the same as purging the fuel prior to long term storage .
For the later ,start the saw,then shut it off and drain the tank.Restart and let it idle before it dies from fuel starvation which on a Stihl could take 5 minutes on an empty tank .
Very risky once again to run a saw out of fuel while at speed .
Very good point Al... I didn't differentiate between purging and runnin' lean in the cut... Thanks ol' buddy. :)
Gary
--and I might further point out that if you let a saw sit for months at a time full of fuel you will screw up the carb innards in time .Then if you are like me you will get very good at rebuilding carbs .
Forgetfull minds cause tired fingers . :D
I hope you get your saw fixed. I've got three right now but would be miserable without my primary saw. Speaking of doing odd things I usually after running hard for awhile and before I set it down for fuel and maint. run my saws at something not quite an idle but not wide open to help cool them a little. I don't know if it helps but I have always been told never to shut down anything without a little cool down. That prolly comes from alot of heavy equipment running in the family (oil and turbos :) ). what do you guys think? wasting time or good practice?
:D i was always told if it aint broke, dont fix it.. also if it works dont change it ????
Quote from: baronthered on May 18, 2009, 04:07:47 AM
I hope you get your saw fixed. I've got three right now but would be miserable without my primary saw. Speaking of doing odd things I usually after running hard for awhile and before I set it down for fuel and maint. run my saws at something not quite an idle but not wide open to help cool them a little. I don't know if it helps but I have always been told never to shut down anything without a little cool down. That prolly comes from alot of heavy equipment running in the family (oil and turbos :) ). what do you guys think? wasting time or good practice?
Well a saw doesn't have an automatic transmission, or a turbo to cool down... so you are wasting your time. Plus 2 strokes don't like to be held at half throttle. You load up the cylinder with unburnt fuel over a brief period of time. All on, or all off... Just shut 'er down. you ain't gonna hurt it.
Gary
Early on I had one I had to cool down,still have it .PM 610 Mac that I used to run until it died from fuel starvation because at the time I didn't know any better .
The electronic coil would go goofy on me and not spark for love nor money until it did cool . There you sit in the woods twiddling your thumbs waiting a half an hour like a bump on a log . :)
It took me a while to get a little smarter about things .If I let it idle about 10-15 seconds before I shut it down it did just fine .
When all else fails,contact the customer service folks at stihlusa.com.They've kept my 31 year old 075AV going strong.Welcome to the forum! These are some great people on here 8)!
Thanks for all the replies.
Good news, the dealer talked to Stihl and they provided free parts,
I just paid labor $120. I'm pleased with my dealer, Winchester Equipment
for going the extra mile.
Again thanks for all the good replies.
I've stopped running to empty on all my equipment.
Good for you Blizer, seems like a good resolution to the problem. Some eh, your back up and running that used saw, want to sell it cheap? I mean after all it is used, isn't it? :) :D :D
I,ve run my saw's and everything I own thats 2 cycle out of gas for 30 plus years now and have never lost a motor, but one thing I do is I use a heavy 40:1 mix which also allows you to juice up the carb settings. I firmly believe in this mixture and my older saws prove the point, the oldest 075 purchased in1983, 056Mag in 1985, 034/044 in 1990 have never been apart.
;D true said!! oil is cheap compared to a shop hour ... even if your shop hour is at home most that will usually go wrong is the plug will foul out . run all my 2 cycles at 24:1 or 1 quart to 6 gallons of #87 oct. early 80,s had pro huskies and ran their oil at their ratio and it showed how they wanted you to buy a new saw with in a year !!! with the 24:1 and new jonsereds there still going long and hard!!! lesson learned
If a little is good then more is better! Heck, why stop at 24-1? 16-1 or even 1-1 should offer the most protection yet! Why even use gas? Just run straight oil! 8)
Quote from: chucker on June 17, 2009, 12:18:10 AM
6 gallons of #87 oct. early 80,s had pro huskies and
My Dolmar dealer has a sign hung up in his shop. Please run 89 octane min now days in the saws. He is a Ole timer with many many years at this same location.
I had to ask the question why? He stated the 87 today is not the 87 of 20-25 years ago and he is seeing alot of burned up saws between the ethanol amounts in 87 and the heat generated with 87 octane. That was good enough answer for me. I had ran only 87 till that day with no problems, but switching to 93 only cost 20 cents a gallon.
Plus I know how much my truck appreciates it when I run 93 in it compared to 87, heck the truck feels like it has alot less pulling power on 87 and 87 sets off the knock sensor to retard the timing.
I've never worried too much when the saw starts running out of fuel-- Will usually stop at first sign-- glad to take a little rest myself--but I have tried to finish cuts---
Didn't even consider or know it could be a potential problem--explaination makes sense
I won't do that any more!! Maybe this is more of an issue with the newer, higher revving saws-- of which I have a couple. I'll be sure and offer this advice to others. Could this be a reason for me to switch to synthetic oil? more residual protection? I have not switched yet but as has been stated any oil is relatively cheap compared to saw prices and/or time consuming repairs.
Thanks forum
I have used a 40/1 mix in my saws too for a long time , and also have not had an engin failure due to lack of lube . I think the 40/1 mix is a very good comprimise the the 50/1 that is proned by manifacturers out there that and using the highest octane gas available that has no ethanol in it is the way to go ... Some may or may not agry , but that is ok with me , I aint going to try and lean out my saws to get to know how to rebuild them .... ;)