I was wondering if anyone stickers lumber from a customers logs and if so, do you charge for that?
I have mostly sawed for myself but more and more people are bringing me logs.
I hate to just stack the pine boards on top of each other. I will admit that I have been stickering for no extra cost. I band the stack and load it. They have a nice neat stack.
Stickering is getting old. :)
I am thinking about offering two different prices. One stickered and one not.
How much would be a fair price to charge for sticking the stack?
Thanks for any insight on this.
Takes your time for sawing wood for stickers and your time for stickering. Seems your time is worth $12-20 an hour, and charge for the sawing of stickers (your wood or theirs). No need to work for nothing.
Make it in the deal to begin with...stickered for so much. I assume you want to sticker so you don't have to complete the sawing of all the customers logs at one sawing time.
To me, it is just part of the job. It makes no sense to put all that effort into making nice boards, then not taking care of them. As BT says, it is worth being compensated for, but I'd rather just include it in the price to start with.
Stickering also helps to bind the stack together, making it easier to handle. That isn't much of an issue with wide boards, but a stack of 2x4s will fall apart if they're more than about 6 layers.
Mostly though, it just makes a nicer job of it and that will pay dividends down the road.
I am for charging for stickering. Here's why. Lets say I stickered your lumber last time and this time I don't need it stickered. I am going to ask for a discount on the bill. Now if you have the price built in you are fine. If not then you will suffer the loss. Remember, you are in business. Get rid of the Wal-Mart mentality. You need money for health care, pensions, profit etc. You have to make it any way you can. Do not be afraid to charge for your services. You set yourself apart by doing high quality work in a timely and dependable fashion in a professional way.
If you are stickering for an hour of the day for nothing, you have lost at least $50.00 worth of income from sawing.
The customers you get by being the cheapest and never satisfied because they always want it even cheaper.
Quote from: DanG on May 25, 2009, 07:27:16 AM
To me, it is just part of the job. It makes no sense to put all that effort into making nice boards, then not taking care of them.
Fundamentally, I do whatever it takes to best take care of the boards I have worked so diligently to manufacture. I don't make 'cheap' boards. There's plenty other folks that do that.
Thanks for the replies.
Tom has pretty much nailed my mentality. I look at the stacks I have for the customer to pick up and compare that to what we picked up from the local mills when I was a kid.
I sticker the customers lumber like it was my own. Not much of a problem with a few logs.
I just finished 20 logs for a guy. He is bringing 20 more when he picks up his lumber.
I will stick these 20 the same as I did the first 20. These are dimensional boards, 2x4, 2x6 he is using to build with on his farm.
After these are finished I think I need to make some sort of adjustment in pricing for stickered vs non stickered.
It is hard for me to figure my time by the hour. I need to come up with a BF price.
Thanks Again for the advice and opinions.
how many sticks do you use?
some folks use like 3/length (one at each end and one in the middle) for customer's boards instead of the 18-24" rule...
I no longer custom saw, but when I did, I dead stacked the lumber. It was up to the customer to pick up their lumber in a timely fashion and get it home to stack and sticker. When it was requested that I sticker, it was an additional 5¢ per board foot and 30¢ per sticker if they planned on keeping the sticker. Stickers cost too much and take too long to manufacture to just give them away.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on May 25, 2009, 12:42:23 PM
how many sticks do you use?
some folks use like 3/length (one at each end and one in the middle) for customer's boards instead of the 18-24" rule...
I sticker everything at 14". In the back of my mind I do not see the customer unbanding and resticking when he gets home. Those chores seem to find their way to the back burner.
Quote from: Brad_S. on May 25, 2009, 12:59:43 PM
I no longer custom saw, but when I did, I dead stacked the lumber. It was up to the customer to pick up their lumber in a timely fashion and get it home to stack and sticker. When it was requested that I sticker, it was an additional 5¢ per board foot and 30¢ per sticker if they planned on keeping the sticker. Stickers cost too much and take too long to manufacture to just give them away.
The entire "sticker" part of milling and lumber has been a real education for me.
None of the local saw mills we used growing up stickered anything. All the lumber was in plies.
I never considered how quickly I would go through stickers or the number of stickers we would need in a day of sawing.
I need to come up with a way/price to compensate for the stickers and the time I spend making them.
I cut the stickers if requested and charge at my standard bf rate of 35¢. The customer is responsible for stacking and or stickering. If I saw for a customer here at the farm, I tell them when their boards will be ready and it's up to them to come and pick them up.
QuoteI do not see the customer unbanding and resticking when he gets home. Those chores seem to find their way to the back burner.
I don't see many of my customers having a way to unload a banded stickered stack when they get home. Unless they own a fork lift my guess is that it's done one board at a time. So stickering is a wasted effort.
Here, stickering is necessary. Green or undried lumber can not be deadstacked for more than a day, except maybe a few odd days during the winter. The end of every sawing day here is stickering what has been milled. I don't, nor have any inclination to, band folks' lumber. I give them the ins and outs of it, what its apt to do/not do, drying, etc. Once they pick it up, it is completely up to them as to how they wish to care for their lumber. If they decide they want stickers, they are 50 cents each, and that's a bargain for the customer as compared with providing/making their own.
If I'm there and/or not too busy with other projects, I will help them load. By the time they come to pick it up, I've already handled it plenty.
I have the same problem as tcsmpsi. For most of the year, unstickered green lumber will grow pretty green hair in a day with this heat and humidity.
Apparently, some of you put a lot more time and effort into your sticks than I do. First, on the MDS, it is real easy and quick to make 1x1 strips to cut them from. I usually make them as I saw by taking them wherever there isn't sufficient wood to make a 1x4. I have a jig sitting behind the saw, and lay them in it as they come off the saw. When it is full, I cut them to length with the chainsaw. I might have 5 to 7 minutes invested in a wheelbarrow full. I do all stickering of customer's lumber as it comes off the mill, only handling it once. I keep some low-grade 8/4 lumber handy to make the bottom layer for 4/4 stacks so I can use the forklift to move the stack. I can reuse these for the same purpose after they've picked up their lumber. It only takes a minute to distribute 6 or 8 sticks for the next layer of boards, then everything is the same as deadstacking. I don't mind dealing with the sticks, but I ain't handling the lumber more than once! :D
This might be a good place to mention something. In reading the above, some of you might think that you've caught me stretching the truth just a tiny bit. You see, I've been virtually out of the sawing business for almost 2 years, with a bunch of broke down equipment, and no money to fix it. ::) Well, I have now completely rebuilt my sawmill engine and it is running oh so sweet! 8) 8) I have but to hook up the governor, mount the shrouds on it, and put it on the mill to be up and running again. So, while all of the valuable info I dispensed above was from the past, I don't feel all that bad about having stated it in the present tense. ;D
I need a little more info , while we are on this subject. Oh and by the way thanks for starting this thread. 8) When i am pulling side boards from my ties or pallet cants I sticker them and leave about a half inch or so in between the boards give or take. Question: Are you leaving space in between the boards of customers lumber or stacking the edges tight. Someone said they were banding it. Must be stacking tight. Just wondering.
Congrats on the rework Dang. 8) 8) Tim
If we sticker a customers lumber and it is not going into our kiln then I charge an extra $0.03 bdft. We will used old fletchings off of the edger to do it with. If they want good stickers then I charge the $0.03 bdft plus $0.50 for each sticker. Most take the bundels dead stacked and a pile of fletchings with them to make stickers from.
We stack the boards tight to each other. When they dry they will pull apart. Stuff thicker then 2 inches we try to leave a gap.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10186/Picture%201032.jpg)
I stick all lumber with a space between each board, the sticker is as far to the end as possible, and 2'-3' apart, sometimes 4',if it is thicker stock and will be re handled later, someone mentioned 14" that could get old. $.50/sticker, sounds high even with time included? I save the first flitches coming off the log, these are nice clear stock and anything 4' long gets set aside like DanG said and gang sawn when there is enough, I even save the stuff down to 18" long, as long as it doesn't fall between the rollers on the edger. Even in the winter boards should be stuck or they will freeze together and that is a hassle. I have seen other sawyers not sticking and wonder why they don't, in a few days they will grow the green ugliness we all dislike. I seldom see a client make it to pick up sawn stock in a timely manner in which to keep the greenies out of the pile, it is bad enough even with a stuck pile in the summer. I don't have a bander yet, am looking into it on a different thread.
Tim
DanG
QuoteThis might be a good place to mention something. In reading the above, some of you might think that you've caught me stretching the truth just a tiny bit. You see, I've been virtually out of the sawing business for almost 2 years, with a bunch of broke down equipment, and no money to fix it. Well, I have now completely rebuilt my sawmill engine and it is running oh so sweet! I have but to hook up the governor, mount the shrouds on it, and put it on the mill to be up and running again. So, while all of the valuable info I dispensed above was from the past, I don't feel all that bad about having stated it in the present tense.
DanG,
I've always considered things stated in past tense as the voice of experience. ;D Things like "don't ever do it that way or else ......" Are very helpful and I'm always glad someone else learned it first. :D ;D :D ;D :D Anyway I'm happy to hear you are almost back in business. I'll be waiting for some of your new learned experiences.
$0.50 /sticker isn't a bad price.
a 4' sticker is 1/3 of a BF, stickers should be made of clear material, and they are a pain to make, even when it's easy.
I sticker every thing unless the customer will be here the same day. All my stuff is still loaded piece by piece. I make stickers on the mill, one ince passes on 1.5 lumber and 1.5 passes on one inch lumber. I use them green once then plane them. At 3/4 you get one extra layer for each four in a stack. Stickers are like gold in this business.
QuoteI use them green once then plane them. At 3/4 you get one extra layer for each four in a stack. Stickers are like gold in this business.
Hi, My name is Dave. This is my first time here and I'm a sticker abuser. :D I use them green, dry or what ever way they come. I do use only dry stickers for loads going into the kiln. But my stickers end up in piles, twisted, left out in the rain and generally abused. They also make great fire starters. ;D I make a lot of stickers because I go through a lot of them and it's not because of sending them off to a customer.
Quote from: Banjo picker on May 25, 2009, 07:45:32 PM
I need a little more info , while we are on this subject. Oh and by the way thanks for starting this thread. 8) When i am pulling side boards from my ties or pallet cants I sticker them and leave about a half inch or so in between the boards give or take. Question: Are you leaving space in between the boards of customers lumber or stacking the edges tight. Someone said they were banding it. Must be stacking tight. Just wondering.
Congrats on the rework Dang. 8) 8) Tim
Yes, I leave a space between the boards and I also band. I cheat. :)
Originally I would notch the ends of a couple of stickers and band over them. This kept from pulling the boards together. It also kept the band from indenting the green wood. I originally used the "banding stickers" on top and bottom.
Now I use a little longer, thicker stick and band over that, still cut a small notch to hold the band. I cheat even more. :)
I now only place the banding sticker on the top.Top and bottom is harder to do working by yourself. Now I just use the banding sticker on the top. It does not pull the boards together.
Dan, How is your jig made. A rough description will do. I have to find a better way. Been using a chop saw or radial arm saw doing one at a time.
Tim, the jig is so simple it will make you sick. It is merely a 1x10 nailed to the edge of a 2x8, a little over 12' long. It sits on a pair of cutoff stumps. It has a piece of scrap board nailed into one end to close it up, and the other end is left open. I just measured from the closed end and made a mark every 3 feet, which is the sticker length I use, and made a vertical cut in the 1x10 at each mark. Just stack the material in there and run the chainsaw down through each slot, and you have a pile of stickers. :) I usually put about 20 strips in there at a time, and it takes about a minute to cut 80 stickers to length, minus the culls of course.
This is not a precision system, by any means, but plenty close enough for what I'm doing. A layer of rough boards rarely comes out to exactly 36 inches anyway. Since you have a band mill, you could run a stack of 1x8s through the planer to get consistent thickness, then stand them up on the mill to get your strips. You should get 21 48" stickers out of each board.
We use a huge numbeer of stickers. We made a jig by taking 1x4 and nailing them into 4 X shaped pieces . Then we used cross pieces to hold the 4 X's at the proper distance for us to make 43" stickers. We use 5/8" thick cedar edging strips that are placed in the jig. When the jig is full we use a chainsaw to straighten the ends and cut the middle. We can make a couple hundred at a time. Cedar makes great stickers. Our lumber is stickered straight off the mill most of the time. A stickered pile of ERC will stay good for 10 years except for the top layer.
Quote from: DR_Buck on May 25, 2009, 09:46:56 PM
QuoteI use them green once then plane them. At 3/4 you get one extra layer for each four in a stack. Stickers are like gold in this business.
Hi, My name is Dave. This is my first time here and I'm a sticker abuser. :D I use them green, dry or what ever way they come. I do use only dry stickers for loads going into the kiln. But my stickers end up in piles, twisted, left out in the rain and generally abused. They also make great fire starters. ;D I make a lot of stickers because I go through a lot of them and it's not because of sending them off to a customer.
I am a sticker abuser too :'(.
Tim
When I was a sawmill customer, I never did expect my lumber to be stickered. Then again, I was always the off-bearer, and I always stacked the lumber directly onto my trailer, so there was no issue with the lumber molding before I got it home ;).
Now that my dad and I have a mill, I don't find stickers to be a problem to make at all, but then again we're probably not using nearly as many as some of you. I dry 1" pine boards and then stack and gang-rip them on the sawmill to 1" thick. I always take 1/2" off the edges first to straighten them up. Since I use 8' boards, I have to cut them in half, so I tightly bundle together about 50 at a time with baling twine and cut them in half with a chainsaw. I can cut 100 stickers in no time this way. Like DanG's method, it's not a precision operation, but it doesn't need to be. I put them 24" apart on my stacks and that seems to be perfectly adequate.
I always want to cry when I take clear boards and rip them into stickers. I treat mine like gold, my mill sits in the rain, under a tarp, i keep unused sticks in my shed :)
sticks with knots or wane in them are junk stickers and won't stay straight.
Dan, what do you do with your edgings and low quality boards? What about the ones with a big hole in the middle where you had to dig out some tramp metal? Making stickers is a good use for those boards and waste materials if you can come up with an efficient way to produce them. Logs with a lot of taper have lots of stickers that usually go in the burn pile.
my edgings are typically not useful for stickers because they aren't uniform in width. I think bark leads to headaches as a sticker.
since I 99% custom saw away from home, i typically leave all of the tramp stuff in the slab pile. If available, I do use some of the lower grade boards. If the sticker is a one time use thing, I guess a knot isn't so bad, but it's nice to be able to get multiple uses out of stickers.
I can see the problem if you're sawing on the road. Sawing at home does have its luxuries. ;)
For those who are interested, here are a couple of shots of my super-simple, ultra-cheap, highly efficient, nuthin' to it sticker makin' jig. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10074/jig01.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10074/jig02.jpg)
Looks like I used a 2x6 for this one instead of a 2x8...probably just what was laying around at the time. It has a big pin knot right in the middle, so I didn't waste a thing by using it for this.
when i'm on the road, i tell the customer to pick a few boards and i'll rip them down.
I don't even offer to sticker customer's wood unless they are paying me to kiln dry it because I don't want to be completely responsible for how perfect it dries, whether it bows or twists, how much checking there is, etc.
I will explain to my customers how to properly sticker their wood -- no charge. I'll throw in a diagram for free.
I will cut sticker material (1x1) from their logs, to be cut to length by the customer -- no charge.
I will sticker the customers' wood if they ask. Cost is $54 per hour, same as my hourly sawing charge.
When I'm making stickers for my own lumber piles, I simply jig-cut a pile of 1x1's, using something similar to Dang's jig. Any sticker that has a knot or too much wain just gets tossed -- into my firewood pile ;D.
If the customer is buying my lumber and wants to take the stickers, they're $.25 each. The 4 foot long 4x4's under each pile are $5.00 each.
You'd be amazed at how many customers figure they can help themselves to any old piece of 4x4 they find lying on the ground. Or maybe you wouldn't ;D.
Customer: "You don't mind if I take a few of these do you?"
Me: "Nope, not if you don't mind paying me $1.25 a foot for them. :)"
Customer: "I wasn't going to take anything that looked good."
Me: "That's why I'm only charging $1.25 a foot. ;D"
Fortunately dead-piled Douglas-Fir doesn't deteriorate or stain for a couple of weeks (in summer) or a couple of months (spring and fall).
I have to ask this. Several have mentioed not wanting knots in the stickers.
Why is a knot bad for stickering. Do the stickers need to be from clear boards?
a sticker will "crook" where there is a knot, which makes it impossible to keep the stickers inline. They also have a tendancy to break easily.
I've used them in a pinch, but I typically use clear lumber to make stickers (and cry while I'm doing it).
I am able to get 2x4 at the same place as I get my salvage logs so I cut they to length and then in half .
They are a little thick but work well!
To promote the chronic sticker abuser mentality, I use stickers with knot and even two short ones to make the width of the pile. As we know they are expensive and I make do with what comes along. I try not to use them and wince when I do, they usually get culled out as I am going through the pile in its final use, rough boarding usually. If I was kiln drying I would pay much more attention.
Tim
I do nearly all of my sawing "on the road", only once had a customer want to sticker his lumber as we sawed.
He had a wagon to stack the lumber on, but we were sawing random widths, 6, 8 & 10 and stickering would be nearly impossible as we sawed.
I told him that he could take the edgings home with him and sticker the lumber after it was all sawed.
He was surprised when I explained to him how much it would slow us up if he stickered as we sawed.
When we saw, we put bark slab in one pile, edgings in one pile and wider boards with 2 flat sides on a third pile. Then the good stuff goes on the stack. After it goes into a pile, the customer can take whatever he wants!
Chuck
I sticker all my wood at 16", and only use Doug fir for making my own stickers.
I charge the price of the log + milling and trimming time then divide by the number of usable stickers and I come up with about $.10 each. For trimming them to length, I use a chop saw set up on the flatbed trailer with a stop and cut five at a time. I cut up about a dozen logs at a time, so that I can get good production at it.
When I am on the road, I dry stack unless the customer wants stickers cut. I will mill them on the mill and then they can cut to length, as the customer will invariably want an odd length so that they can take full advantage of the space that they have available to stack the wood.