In another thread I mentioned that I always sign and have the customer sign a contract before any work is done. I designed my contract to be torn in half so that each of us get's a copy:
THIS AGREEMENT, by and between Customer:_______________________________________ and
Sawyer: KNOTHOLE SAWMILL, LLC, with the Wood-Mizer one-man sawmill as follows:
1. Sawyer agrees to cut Customer's logs at: Customer's Site or Sawyer's Site for $___________ per thousand board feet of lumber cut. Charges are based on actual lumber cut rather than scaled volume. (Note, Net usable lumber will be greater than scale when cut with the Wood-Mizer). A board foot of lumber is defined as 12"X12"X1". Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie: 0-1"= 1", 1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc. Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.
2. In addition to above, Customer shall pay Sawyer $__________ for delivery and location setup of the Wood-Mizer. Also, if the Sawyer is required to relocate the Wood-Mizer on site, there shall be an additional charge of $_________ per move. In the event a saw blade is broken or damaged by foreign matter (nail, horseshoe, spike, fence wire, etc.) in the customer's log, there is a charge of $_________ per damaged blade.
3. Customer agrees to provide _______ men to assist in loading and reloading logs and lumber. All logs shall be stacked in location of mill so that there can be continuous loading of mill by rolling logs without moving mill.
4. Payment in full shall be made as follows: _________________________________________
5. It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous. Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber. It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties. Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___
Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________ =================================================================================
THIS AGREEMENT, by and between Customer:_______________________________________ and
Sawyer: KNOTHOLE SAWMILL, LLC, with the Wood-Mizer one-man sawmill as follows:
1. Sawyer agrees to cut Customer's logs at: Customer's Site or Sawyer's Site for $___________ per thousand board feet of lumber cut. Charges are based on actual lumber cut rather than scaled volume. (Note, Net usable lumber will be greater than scale when cut with the Wood-Mizer). A board foot of lumber is defined as 12"X12"X1". Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie: 0-1"= 1", 1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc. Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.
2. In addition to above, Customer shall pay Sawyer $__________ for delivery and location setup of the Wood-Mizer. Also, if the Sawyer is required to relocate the Wood-Mizer on site, there shall be an additional charge of $_________ per move. In the event a saw blade is broken or damaged by foreign matter (nail, horseshoe, spike, fence wire, etc.) in the customer's log, there is a charge of $_________ per damaged blade.
3. Customer agrees to provide _______ men to assist in loading and reloading logs and lumber. All logs shall be stacked in location of mill so that there can be continuous loading of mill by rolling logs without moving mill.
4. Payment in full shall be made as follows: _________________________________________
5. It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous. Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber. It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties. Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___
Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________
This is just what I use. You can re-design and customize it to fit your needs.
I found that there are many situations not covered by that kind of contract, like who is responsible for damage to the mill from other equipment operating around the mill, or from a fire that occurs. I had two contracts drawn up that cover most situations that the mill will be put into. My every day contract is 3 pages long and my more detailed one for when the mill is barged, flown, or moved by other equipment is 5 pages long and leaves no stone unturned. I have not had a customer baulk at signing a contract yet. I leave it with them when I do a site evaluation so they have plenty of time to look it over.
When I started in business 16 years ago, I had 500 carbonless 2 copy contracts printed up. I still have 497 left. I did thousands of jobs without a contract and never once had a problem. Still, I guess it is better to be safe than sorry.
So far, I've done it all on a handshake after a discussion of the terms. Never been shafted yet.
I'd only suggest you make a carbon copy, rather than two half pages torn in half.
One could easily say that the other half was "different", whereas a carbon copy would be a copy of the original.
But a start at getting a mutual understanding. And hopefully no need for any further differences of that understanding.
I use this contract for some of my saw-jobs, but most are just on a handshake basis!
The only thing I've added to the contract is that I have written a 3rd sentence in #3, it says "When the customer doesn't provide a tailer, add $25.00 per day to apply towards hiring someone to tail the mill!"
I just make a second copy of the contract and give one to the customer when I show up to saw his logs!
one thing I would remove from the contract is the stipulation that when using a woodmizer etc you will cut more than scale Not always so Yes most of the time But why add something they can hold your feet to the fire when you don't have to
jmo
Chico
Chico, I somewhat agree, but the statement is generally true. It really serves as a reminder to the customer that he may get more lumber than the logs Doyle scale.
I had a customer ask why I charge by scale rather than Bd. Ft. sawn. He had some old punky logs that we were sawing 3" Planks. He would jam a screwdriver in each plank to see how solid it was. If he didn't like it he put the plank on the slabwood pile. I ask him if he was going to pay me for the planks he put on the slabwood pile because we had sawn them even though he culled them out.
I wouldn't lock myself into a particular type of billing.
I either bill by the BF or by the hour. I make that decision after I see the logs. Always by the hour on cedar. Today I sawed cedar, cypress, pecan and cherry. The entire job was by the hour. I agree on not "locking myself into a particular type of billing".
I charge a board foot rate for all softwoods and an hourly rate for all hardwoods. I would hate to charge by the hour for cedar as I make better money by the bft unless it is small logs and I am cutting ½" boards. Cedar cuts so easily with the 13* hook I can turn up the feed speeds considerably more then other woods.
Trouble with our cedar is that most logs are 6-10 inchers. Most of the larger logs have rot and/or badly fluted. Also most customers want it cut as wide as possible resulting in different widths. I've compared many jobs and found hourly rates work for me. Here is an hourly rate job:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0201.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0202.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0203.JPG)
I wish all the cedar I've cut looked like those, Magicman! I've sawed up some pretty ugly ones. Backwoods sawyer, I'm assuming that the cedar you're sawing is not eastern redcedar (Juniperus virginiana). Our cedars, as Magicman said, are usually small, knotty, and heavily tapered.
Probably WRC, we cut it here and it is like butter. Pretty big oftentimes as well.
Looks like White Cedar to me.
I've sawed lots of it. Sawed pretty easy, only fault I found with it was that it tends to be small.
Makes for a little more handling.
When sawing WC, I usually just square it up and go with what's left for the width.
Once in a while, I get a little bit of side lumber!
Dodgy Loner, Yes, this is a good cut of ERC. He gathers it all year and I saw about that amount for him each Spring. Most of the other customers cedar is badly fluted and has "punky" spots. Also, since his is small and came out of the woods, it doesn't have metal..... ;D
When I was portable I sawed with a contract. If they would not sign the contract then I did not saw. I ended up in court twice and each time the contract saved me. Once the logs seemed to have come from across the property line. The other time it seems when a guy was cutting up the slab wood for fire wood he cut himself with the chainsaw. Tried to sue me and the customer. Since the customer had agreed to take responsibilty by signing the contract I was not liable for the slab pile. The guy cut himself almost a week after I left the site. ::)
Now since they drop the logs off here I do not have them sign a contract. I know they will pay or the lumber does not leave.
It's just a "CYOA" thing.....Thanks for your comment Arky...... ;D
Quote from: Magicman on August 13, 2009, 11:56:34 AM
Dodgy Loner, Yes, this is a good cut of ERC. He gathers it all year and I saw about that amount for him each Spring. Most of the other customers cedar is badly fluted and has "punky" spots. Also, since his is small and came out of the woods, it doesn't have metal..... ;D
I wish we had Eastern Red Cedar in this area!
The closest I've seen ERC anywhere near here was about 70 miles away and not for sale!
Yes the first rule of combat. CYA then CYBA and all will be well.
I get ERC by the whack and never seem to have enough.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10186/DSC02607f.JPG)
Need about two whacks right now.
My wack was neater than yours...... :D :D :D At least you have a loader. My customer knows that I don't, so he stacks them straight. His is one of my favorite jobs every year.
Magicman -
I notice that those logs are in three stacks, do you move the mill to each stack?
Thanks for posting the contract - it gave me some ideas for revising mine.
- Marty
Marty, I do move the mill to each stack. That's easier than moving the logs, plus the logs are "clean". Considering the business that I get from him each year, I'm happy to move to each stack at no additional charge. My mistake this year was setting up where I had to "back up" on each move. Should have been pulling forward.
Sometimes when they come in on the trailers they have the logs stacked so that the butts and tops are going each way and since they are not all the same length it is hard to pick up even with a loader. Sometimes I have some pretty bad whacks of logs.
Thanks Magicman
Don't know how you get anything done with all the time you spend bailing me out ;D ;DThanks Brian
Friends gotta stick together. :)
This is awsome Magic Man. You cover all the bases!
Quote from: Magicman on August 10, 2009, 07:48:25 PM
In another thread I mentioned that I always sign and have the customer sign a contract before any work is done. I designed my contract to be torn in half so that each of us get's a copy:
THIS AGREEMENT, by and between Customer:_______________________________________ and
Sawyer: KNOTHOLE SAWMILL, LLC, with the Wood-Mizer one-man sawmill as follows:
1. Sawyer agrees to cut Customer's logs at: Customer's Site or Sawyer's Site for $___________ per thousand board feet of lumber cut. Charges are based on actual lumber cut rather than scaled volume. (Note, Net usable lumber will be greater than scale when cut with the Wood-Mizer). A board foot of lumber is defined as 12"X12"X1". Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie: 0-1"= 1", 1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc. Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.
2. In addition to above, Customer shall pay Sawyer $__________ for delivery and location setup of the Wood-Mizer. Also, if the Sawyer is required to relocate the Wood-Mizer on site, there shall be an additional charge of $_________ per move. In the event a saw blade is broken or damaged by foreign matter (nail, horseshoe, spike, fence wire, etc.) in the customer's log, there is a charge of $_________ per damaged blade.
3. Customer agrees to provide _______ men to assist in loading and reloading logs and lumber. All logs shall be stacked in location of mill so that there can be continuous loading of mill by rolling logs without moving mill.
4. Payment in full shall be made as follows: _________________________________________
5. It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous. Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber. It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties. Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___
Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________
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THIS AGREEMENT, by and between Customer:_______________________________________ and
Sawyer: KNOTHOLE SAWMILL, LLC, with the Wood-Mizer one-man sawmill as follows:
1. Sawyer agrees to cut Customer's logs at: Customer's Site or Sawyer's Site for $___________ per thousand board feet of lumber cut. Charges are based on actual lumber cut rather than scaled volume. (Note, Net usable lumber will be greater than scale when cut with the Wood-Mizer). A board foot of lumber is defined as 12"X12"X1". Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie: 0-1"= 1", 1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc. Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.
2. In addition to above, Customer shall pay Sawyer $__________ for delivery and location setup of the Wood-Mizer. Also, if the Sawyer is required to relocate the Wood-Mizer on site, there shall be an additional charge of $_________ per move. In the event a saw blade is broken or damaged by foreign matter (nail, horseshoe, spike, fence wire, etc.) in the customer's log, there is a charge of $_________ per damaged blade.
3. Customer agrees to provide _______ men to assist in loading and reloading logs and lumber. All logs shall be stacked in location of mill so that there can be continuous loading of mill by rolling logs without moving mill.
4. Payment in full shall be made as follows: _________________________________________
5. It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous. Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber. It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties. Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___
Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________
This is just what I use. You can re-design and customize it to fit your needs.
Magicman i was reading your sawing contract and read where you said " Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie: 0-1"= 1", 1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc. Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.
". Is that meaning when you saw a 2by4 you figure your bf on 2"x4"x length instead of 1-1/2 by 3-1/2 just wondering I was wanting to work on some sorta contract or agreement so everything is in writing from the get go try to keep things clear as mud
I charge for the actual board footage sawed!
Apply whatever agreement that you and your customer make before the lumber is sawn and I suggest that you modify the agreement to meet your sawing circumstances. I charge the same for sawing a "2X4" no matter what the actual dimension is. For example I charge $1.60 to saw an 8' 2X4 no matter how you measure it.
I am not selling a volume of lumber, I am selling a custom sawing service.
Another way to charge and it works mighty well for me is to charge by the linear foot instead of bf: .20 for 2X4, .30 for 2X6, .40 for 2X8, .50 for 2X10, and .60 for 2X12. Again the price per linear foot is the same no matter what the actual dimension is, and it's easy for the customer to figure/know exactly what his cut list will cost him before the sawing begins.
I'm like Chuck and charge by the actual bf. Often I just measure the finished stacks and plug into an excel spreadsheet I made. I sometimes average the width of the stacks and count each one as wide board then record the number of rows. Other times I just measure and record each row separately as a wide board such as 1" T X 10' L X 47" W. There is very seldom any significant difference in the totals either way. If sawing standard sizes I just record the sizes such as 2X4X8 the enter the total number.
I tell all customers under 1" billed by square foot same as 1".
I have a 2 page contract, had my attorney look at it to make sure should stand up in court before I started public sawing. He then told me when i started he had a stack of logs needing sawing so he was one of my early customer.
I have yet to use a contract but I have given one or two out to be sure people understood the rates and expectations. I'm dealing with rural folks who are pretty honest and down to earth and never been burned yet.