We got our 2300 online FINALLY...We bought it back in January but didn't get the temporary install done like we had hoped.
We started it up on Tuesday and have had plenty of heat since, but it doesn't seem that I am getting gasification as of yet. The boiler is too smokey, much like a standard OWB. So far I'm not too impressed.
I'm hoping that I'm just in the learning curve, and things will start looking better this week. I'll be calling my dealer tomorrow to see where to start 'fixing' things.
So far, I'm burning good dry hardwood, my air holes in the upper firebox are clear, I've got coals, can poke a copper pipe through the the Fusion chamber and am putting in as little wood as possible to keep things from going out, yet leaving me enough room to clear the airways.
Ken999,
Great news! Glad to see your 2300 is on line. I blogged extensively about my install and the troubles and learning curve I went through on the thread e2300 install in PA. Whodoctor also has a great thread that helped me get going. Here's a few tips that I learned from experience:
If you experience excessive smoking, it can be only one of three problems: 1) Wood too wet, this system needs dry wood to work best; 2) Bypass door open or not closing completely; 3) Gasification is not occurring. Gasification can be stopped by: a) Poor draft due to low barometric pressures (during a storm) or odd winds with not enough chimney height; b) a full reaction chamber (needing to be cleaned out), turbulators needing to be cleaned, or chimney clogged; c) half-moon hole in the bottom of the firebox clogged or obstructed or coal bed too deep (more than 6" or so); d) no/inadequate air flow from the fan to the firebox (holes in firebox clogged, solenoids not operating, fan failure).
I got some great advice that has helped me with the odd and inconsistent smoking: After I load new wood or break apart a bridged load, I poke a hole down through the coal bed into the reaction chamber with a piece of copper pipe. This helps to insure that air flow gets into the reaction chamber to cause gasification. Easy to do, worked great for me.
Let me know if you get success...you will, there is a learning curve but once you nail it, it works great.
Dave
Thanks Dave. I hope to get things figured out soon as the boiler has been a bit of a disappointment so far.
I've followed, re-read etc. your thread and others and I must say they are VERY helpfull for newbies like myself. Thanks for taking the time to document and discuss your experiences with the stove.
As for my situation, I'm burning dry wood, no issues there. My bypass door appears to be sealing when looking in from the loading door, but I should probably look at it from the pipe-side as well before I can rule that out.
This past weekend was my first shot at being home all day while the stove burned, so I payed particular attention to NOT putting in TOO much wood in efforts to build the holy grail of coal beds. I split everything down to 3-4" and was carefull to prep the coal bed first, opening air holes in the bottom and sides, then I carefully placed in the wood, 2 rows of 16" long pieces, covering the bed evenly.
NO LUCK.
Got me....
check to see if you are getting a good fire in the fusion chamber. Should be a blow torch like flame. Open the by-pass remove the clean out door then close the by-pass.
If you have a good flame there double check that your wood is dry. Load enough wood to last 12 hours plus a little. Then see what the smoke looks like after 10 hours. I have burnt some wood I thought was dry but still had a lot of moisture. If the smoke is clear after 10 hours that is likely your issue. You are seeing water vapor.
Ken999,
You sound just like I did. You'll see that since you read my frustration blog.
This boiler works. Period. What you need to get is your 'wood grove on'. This is almost a romance rather than a learning curve. There are so many small idiosyncrasies that can cause the problem you are seeing. There was a suggestion made to make sure you are getting gasification - do try it. There are a lot of reasons why gasification can be hampered, but lets first go through the checklist:
1) We have established that you have dry wood, and I hate to sound like a broken record, but how are you sure? Do you have a moister meter or can you tell me how you know this for sure?
**The reason I ask is that steam looks a lot like smoke and the system will NOT gasify and eliminate steam. Steam comes from three places: directly out of the wood by boiling in the fire, from condensation building up in the exhaust portion of the boiler (including the chimney), and/or (and very common!) from smoke free hot air exiting the chimney into cooler humid air. The latter often mistaken for smoke. You can easily determine if it's mainly smoke or mainly steam by observing what is happening at the top of the chimney. If you stand back from the boiler and look up at the top of the chimney do you see "vapors" that seem to start billowing AFTER about a foot past the top of the chimney? IOW's, you have about a foot of clear air then vapors? If so, that's steam and water vapors and it can billow out and look like smoke, often traveling quite a distance. Real smoke will be visible coming right out of the top of the chimney. TEST: If you think it's steam, open up the bypass and you should see the "smoke" start coming right out of the top of the chimney. Close the bypass and watch it change back in a moment or so. The boiler is working fine.
2) You need a, what did you call it, "holy grail of coal beds" - funny but true. The coal bed should cover the half-moon opening leading down to the fusion combustor (essentially the hole in the bottom when the secondary air is injected) and down to the reaction chamber where the gasification occurs. 3-6" is good. Don't let the HGOCB get too deep. It should'nt be so deep that it covers the primary air holes on the sides and back of the firebox. Are you good on this point?
3) Check for gasification. Like Stumper said...and be careful. I would go one step further and shut off the master power in the back before I opened the reaction chamber cover. Then switch it back on and from a distance look in. I have pictures of what it should look like in my thread. If you don't see the "blow torch" after about 2 minutes, you need to find out why. First poke a hole in the HGOCB through the half-moon opening and into the reaction chamber. I use a 1/2 diameter piece of water pipe. Look again, after a minute see anything?
Get back with the answers to the above questions and we can move on to the next steps. Hang in there - this system works.
Dave
This AM the 'smoke' looked the best it has been. First and only time so far. I'll take a more objective look at the stack to try and determine whats smoke and whats steam.
The wood I was using over the weekend to eliminate one of the variables has been cut and stacked in the open since a year ago this past fathers day. Around about Sept. at the end of a 3 week or so dry spell we got it covered with old metal roofing. I've burned a chord of it so far this year through my PE Summit insert here in the house and there is absolutely NO steam/sizzle. Trouble is I only have maybe 2 chords of that left, and I consider it my 'reserve' for the insert should something bad happen to the boiler. Those stacks are cut 16" and are the only stuff I have to fit the insert w/o re-cutting the 'new' stacks.
My other piles, the 'new' ones, have been cut/stacked since April/May and are mostly Oak. I'm a little nervous about this wood being dry enough, but it is what it is at this point. I've 8 chord or so in these 'new' stacks, with 3 of it being White Pine that I'm trying to burn up before the real cold temps set in. I understand that the Pine is going to be trickier as it doesn't leave alot of coals, so I'm trying to stay on top of that a tick more when I load it.
The way my wood is piled, it'll be a couple-three days before I get into the hardwood again. I just today started into the 'new' piles and I have to burn some of the Pine that's in the way first.
I'll man up and try taking off the reaction chamber doors...see if I can get some 'Stumper' eyelashes...lol... ;D
Went out this AM....All the Pine I loaded bridged overnight. I'm thinking that splitting that stuff down real fine is going to be key for burning it correctly.
I took my 5.5' metal ice chopper and banged around in the upper fire chamber knocking everything down. It has a 3" or so blade on it that works pretty good for scraping the holes along the side of the airbox. I used it as a pry bar and slid everything on the bottom to center, over the Fusion chamber, then used my copper pipe to push a bunch of coals down INTO the Fusion chamber.
I shut the door, closed the bypass and the smoke cleared up quickly and was showing steam (I guess...) after a foot or two above the stack. 8)
Looks like this 'Scrape, slide to center, pack and poke the coals' is going to be the ticket.
The other good news is, after today I should be into a solid chord of hardwood before I HAVE to burn any more Pine out of the way. ;D Hopefully I get this working and can just mix a few pieces in here and there.
Been three months, got the bugs worked out, had to get to know the beast, just like a new huntin dog. Doesn't seem is if everyone is fighting the exact same bug. Heating 900 sq. ft. garage, 2 hot water heaters and 3500 sq. ft. house, I am glad to still be getting over 24 hr. burns. Temps been -5 -10 and in single digits during the day. Except one day the temp. was down to 115F. on boiler, Dad filled when we were gone and forgot to shut bypass, but appreciated him coming out to filler up, still didn't burn any LP! Using a mix of ash, elm, oak and boxelder that is split with some small rounds. SO far (fingers crossed) we are doing fine. Very little to no smoke is great, wood all cut last year so pretty dry but not fully, I can tell with the wetter wood we are getting not smoke but I think mostly vapor from chim. Bridging problem very minimal using hard wood, have never lost the fire, must eventually drop as coals burn down, I think the weight of hard wood helps? We will see how bad the fusion chamber is in the spring being I have the older model bought on sale? The people I talked to and on other posts said CB has been very willing to give a new chamber for OWNER installation. Our unit is also fully enclosed, out of the wind, which must help a lot according to other more experienced folks.
DVA, did you talk to CB with your list of questions or I might have missed it. I asked about the insulation of entire circ. motor from the manual, being the fins are there to cool the motor some. Will it burn out?
Thanks for all the advice this site has given, best regards and Merry Christmas.
Randy
Ken999, this sounds like very good news! If you are seeing a clear area of a foot or two above the top of the chimney before the "smoke" starts - that ain't smoke - that's steam. You will see that off and on as the weather changes. Wait until you finally see (or don't see) anything except for clear wavy thermals coming out. I think you're close to that utopia moment.
Your
QuoteScrape, slide to center, pack and poke the coals
routine is exactly what I do. You'll find that occasionally, as the wood falls and covers the opening that the unit will smoke for a bit until the area burns down. That's acceptable behavior. You can always shorten this time by poking a hole. I've been content to let it poke its own hole when that happens, usually back to a clean burn in a cycle or two.
What temp do you have the unit set for?
How many chimney sections do you have?
Randy - haven't called CB yet. Work has been crazy and I haven't been getting settled until well after CB goes to bed. I'm off starting the 18th through the new year, I plan on calling then. I do have your question and a bunch of others ready to ask.
Happy holidays all!
Dave
Pine SUCKS!!... ;D
Had an 'Ooopppsssiieee' last night. I came home from work to a bridged pile of pine, stove at 170, not much fire. I knocked it around and got it going. I scraped everything down and wanted to burn the pine down to the point wher I could add some Maple on top.
Wound up falling asleep on the couch and waking up at 2:00 AM... :o I ran out to the stove to find 4-5 peices of Pine laying on the bottom of the firebox doing nothing..."D**n PINE!!..." I knocked it around and found a couple coals, shut the door and let it light. I went to the wood pile and got a wheelborrow load of Maple. I fine split that load and put 1/3 of it on the now burning Pine trying to get some coals for this AM's all day load. I went out a bit ago to fine the stove running, nearly to temp w/ no smoke. I was hoping that it was gasification, but when I opened the door there was a big hole in the wood/coal's on top on the Fusion chamber, so I doubt I had enough heat for making 'gas.
I raked it around and put the rest of the load on the boiler, then fine split up another full load of Maple for today. Hopefully things look better here in a few minutes when I leave for work.
I'm set at 185 and have 2 sections of pipe.
I load all my wood crosswise. Since switching I have had minimal bridging.
I have had better luck with pine when it is cold and mixed with good wood. The pine does not seem to hold the coals it does not like the warmer weather with longer times between burns.
Rememebr that no matter how dry your wood is you will alway be producing some water vapor. The combustion produces CO2 and H20 plus some other stuff.
Came home yesterday to find the maple load still going, but smoking a bit more than I'd like. I poked it a round some but no dice....so I pulled the cover on the RC and found 3" of powder in the fist half. In towards the FC it was more more hot coals than powder, but I shoveled it out while I had the door off. I then fired the stove and got a big fireball out the door...whoo-hooo!...lol...it didn't appear to be the nice 'jet' that dva gets, but I thought the chamber might not be hot enough immediately after taking out the powder, so I closed it back up and poked some more coals down the FC, then went to the wood pile to get a small load of pine. I still need to burn some of that out of the way so I figure burning small loads while I'm home might be the way to go.
At this point the stove was still up to the bottom of the door, maybe a tick less, with the maple from the AM's loading, so I expected that and the 1/2 WB load of pine to be gone by bedtime. I planned to load some more Maple on for the night burn but I fell asleep and didn't get back out till this AM. There were still some small coals and a few pieces of pine leftover and stove was at 184. Nice.
I fine split a load of maple for today and put 10 or so pieces on the now burning pine. I fiddled around holding the fan button and got the 'base' pile nice and hot, then added the rest of the WB load for the day.
Overall, I'm still not too happy with the amount of smoke I'm getting. Things are getting better, but they are still not what I expected. Tonight I'll clean the turbulators and re-check the RC.
Stumper, what length wood are you burning crossways?
Not that you need to hear this but I just throw wood in my 6048 and shut the door......done.....heat
Haha...I know...
Getting heats not the issue for me, got lots of that thankfully...
Seems I'm getting a little less smoke tonight. I came home and around 4:15 and the stove was off and @ 182. Most all the maple was gone, just 4-5 charred chunks and a few coals. I raked it around, scraped the holes clear and turned the stove up enough to kick on the fan while I went went to the wood pile. I put some fine split maple on the bottom then mixed in some more pine with the next 1.5' or so, then topped it off with some bigger chunks of pine. I looked out the window a few times since coming in and it doesn't seem to be smoking much tonight.
Too cold to fart with the turbulators tonight...mebbe tomorrow...lol...
Let's try some install pic's...
Making some room.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3546.JPG)
Supervisor #1
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3550.JPG)
Prepping the trench.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3569.JPG)
Underdrain and stone done.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3587.JPG)
Thermopex and electric in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3591.JPG)
Sand then rigid foam then sand.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3639.JPG)
Backfill done.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3643.JPG)
Supervisor #1 and I tamping the pad prior to concrete.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3655.JPG)
Crete's here!...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3661.JPG)
Supervisor #1 putting a shine to it...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3691.JPG)
I had to wake him from his nap, but I managed to get Super #1's 'stamp' of approval before things set-up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20302/2593/IMG_3697.JPG)
Stumper- What length wood are you loading sideways?
Ken,
I enjoyed looking at the photos of your project. Nice wide trench, I dug mine by hand, so I was used to seeing a 12 inch wide trench.
It looks like you didn't mess around on the concrete pad either, nice and thick. I poured mine at 5 ½ inches thick.
Do you have a photo of the stove on the pad with the typical smoke stream coming out the chimney that has been troubling you?
Dean
Dean- No pics for the stove on the slab yet. I went overboard on the slab to keep from getting a 'light load' fee. I poured the patch where I crossed the blacktop drive too. It wound up being 6-7 yards if I remember correctly. The slab was 10" thick and 12' x 12.' I offset the hole for the T-pex to the left side so I could slide the stove over leaving me some room to stay on the pad while cleaning the Reaction Chamber. I MIGHT add another 2-3' on the back of the pad this year so I'll have something to stand on while working behind the boiler cleaning etc. Not real sure at this point. First things first though, I'm building a woodshed off the left side of the boiler and will encorperate a roof of the unit so I can stay out of the weather while fiddling around scraping the firebox and loading it up. I'll have to come up with something cleaver so the boiler doesn't become 'trapped' should something ever happen to it.
I have cut my wood the length of my Husky 372 for years. I think that it is 18 to 19 inches but I am not good with lengths. I have spent so many years lying to my wife I am starting to beleive it. :D
I will say you dont skimp. I also installed underdrain below my thermopex as I did not want any water near the pipe. I just put wire in my slab, but your rebar will do the trick.
Haha...yeah...I've been purposely misleading my better half for years too...
I take it you are loading in between the airholes on the sides without blocking the flow? I'm not sure I can load my 2ft'ers that way without causing trouble. I'm holding the wood towards the door in hopes that I at least keep the back inlets open. Our stove seems to burn from the front as others have noted, so I'm still getting a gob of 'stuff' in the back 1/4 of the firebox...more than I'd like to see anyways.
Tomorrow, I'd like to get things burned way down and give the boiler a good scraping and cleaning.
Got the mother of all fireballs this afternoon...phew...worst one yet...thought of you when I did it.
Managed to keep my eyebrows though, so I didn't score too many bonus points. ;D I must have looked like the former President Bush ducking a hurled shoe when that baby came screaming out at me...kinda glad my wife didn't see that one.
On my EC2300 I found the scraper works well to clear along the side holes each time before I fill it. I get the back ones when the wood burns down and there is not much in the firebox. Otherwise, I just keep the side holes clear. Sometimes I'll poke thru the ash bed if I don't hear the "roar" of the combustion chamber indicating gasification is going on. Shortly after I do this, I get rapid temperature increases and the boiler performs well.
I think you'll develop techniques that work for you and eventually settle into a pattern that works to keep your boiler working up to your expectations. I find mine only takes about 10 minutes per day of my time to check it, scrape the ashes away from the holes, load the wood and close it up. About every 2 weeks I clean out the ashes and monthly pull the tubulators and clean the "flour" ash out of the back side near the stack. This seems to be the ticket for good operation on my unit. Probably every one of these things is a bit different. I also find that if the temperature drops a lot (when really cold and heat load in house is high), I sometimes find turning the wood ignition gas on for 30 minutes jump starts the wood in the fire box and brings up to temperature quicker - I also sometimes turn on the gas backup in the reaction chamber if I am in a hurry to bring up temperature. Works well - you can run both burners at the same time, but the lower burner is a propane hog so not much on that one.
Good luck. Let me know if I can be of help in any way.
Im with rpote, i just scrape the side holes everyday with an ice scraper and dont worry about the back holes until the wood load really burns down. I load my stove side to side, i guess my wood is about 20 inches long and i have no bridging problems whatsoever. I also found that when i clean the stove i open both the reaction chamber and the turbulater doors because when you clean the turbulators you put all kinds of ash down into the reaction chamber. So i clean the turbs first then the reaction chamber. As much as i have tried to not have the stove smoke it still does. Sometime alot, sometimes not at all, but i still feel its 200 percent better than the smoke that use to come out my chimney when i was burning inside.
Things are looking a bit better the last couple of days. I've been loading the heck out of it and letting the wood get good and dry in the stove before it get's down to the coal bed. This seemed to have helped all the way around. I get more coals, the wood is dryer when it gets to the coal bed, all I have to do is knock it around on occasion. I'm still geting a bit of bridging, mostly with the pine. Alot of that split kinda funny with the limb knots, so the majority of it has an irregular shape.
Today will finish up the 9' x 4.5' row of 2' wood I started on the 14th. 2/3rd's of that was pine. I was going to work around that pine mixing it in some with the 3 rows behind it, but the more I thought about it the more of a PITA that was looking to be, so I've just split it real fine and dealt with it. Not too bad...6 days, 6/10th's of a chord. We've been below 0 the last 2 nights, with the first part of the week being pretty chilly to, so we've had a pretty good heat load.
Up next, a row of SOLID maple, no pine. Behind that are 2 rows of mostly oak.
The one thing we did notice this week with the cold weather was we couldn't push the programmable t-stat above 71 for some reason. Our t-stat was 2 modes, weekdays and weekends, with 4 programming periods, morning, daytime, evening and night. We had is set to jump up to 75 in the AM before we get up and evenings before we get home. The first floor is mostly open and 830 sq ft. We've got 48' of 3/4" baseboard, fed by a 007 Taco. The boiler is set at 185.
Any thoughts?
I'm thinking that we have hit the limit of what our FF is capable of and I need to bump the basement zone up 5 degrees to help with the FF.
Hi Ken,
I snap a picture of my boiler running, with only little steam cause it is 2 degrees outside when photo is taken.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18492/2080/December_09-2_065.JPG)
When it is warmer out, I hardly see any steam.
Logs I am using are 20" long, so I do not load any cross wise.
For advoiding bridging, I do not overload firebox, and load the wood with bark down (so logs roll little). I also do not load firebox wall to wall, but stack up towards one side, or other. try to avoid interlocking the logs when loading, and I do not load against back or front of firebox, staying in middle over reaction chamber (without blocking with new wood) which I think lets air move better.
I think a little more time and you will get the hang of it.
JJ
ken, i run a 009 taco pump at 120 feet away from the house. How far is the owb from the house? Are you pushing enough volume with the 007?
JJ- My smoke looks alot like that. Very reasonable and it certainly thickens up when I pull the bypass. I just got back from town and the boiler was looking pretty good when I left...ditto when I got home...'course I had to go out and fiddle with it ;). I had stuffed it full of pine for the day and things looked real good inside. The load seems to be sliding down correctly as it burns. Nice. Pulling the bypass produced thick grey smoke, closing it cleared it back up pretty good for a foot or so above the pipe.
Funny thing is, I closed it back up, as it was calling for heat and started back for the house. I looked over my shoulder and there was NOTHING!!...just heat waves. Then after 10 seconds the steam/smoke slowly builds back in and it looks 'normal'.
Hhhhmmmm.....
I walked back over and pulled the bypass...the smoke rolls, I open the door and let the fire climb back up again in the box, then shut it and close it back down. I step back and watch while the residual bypass smoke clears, followed by SUPER clear heat waves for 10 seconds, then slow build up of steam/smoke until it normalizes again.
I do this two or three more times until I'm satisfied that it's not a fluke and sure enough every time, I can get the perfect exhaust, but only for a few seconds.
I'm beginning to think that this thing is starting to enjoy screwing with my head...lol...
I wonder if I'm lacking enough air for complete combustion???...thoughts?? I've already set the Primary solenoid air up to the top holes in the back of the boiler. I've got just a hair over 3/4" when open.
Highlander- The 007 is downstairs, one for each zone, I've got an 009 or 011 onoutside on the boiler.
I think alot of my temp issue is due to the programmable t-stat only cycling 6 times an hour. I don't feel that is enough to hit the temp we had it set for. There is an Override mode which should let us call for constant cycling. That should certainly help. The other thing I want to try is bringing my 'set-back' temps up a few degrees, not letting the house cool as much in between the jump up cycles.
Here's a video of the eClassic working properly.
Dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMlodwDdjGs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMlodwDdjGs)
Today I burned up a main door gasket on the hinge side. While doing some work around the unit and cleaning out the reaction chamber the door was open. The fire inside started with the extra air and was roaring pretty good. I then noticed some creosote on the main door was smoldering, then I noticed that I could smell rubber, it was the gasket as the fire was roaring. Closed the door and can't get a good seal in the area. Opened up the door and the area of the gasket where its allowing smoke to escape is now white. I tried adjusting the door camlocks and no luck. Time to order another one.
That's what I'm looking for Dave!
Is that your boiler?
Nice video Dave, that's how this boiler should work !!
Jim
Just loaded the stove at 9:00. I packed it right full of hardwood, it'll be interesting to see what kind of burn time I get out of this load. Up coming temps for the week look cool, but not too bad. These next few weeks will give me a real good check on my hardwood use/performance. I'm not going to burn any pine until I burn up these next few rows of hardwood. We are headed right into the meat of the heating season, so tracking/documenting things over the course of the next month or so will help me better plan for next winter.
Yes, that's my 2300.
Dave
10 hours into the load and it looks like 24 hrs will be no problem. I've been gone all day and just checked it a few minutes ago...the load has settled a foot or so...there's lots left for the night. It's still smoking a bit when the blower kicks on and the 'opening the door' trick doesn't seem to temporarily clear things up like yesterday, so I'm not sure more air will be the answer.
I think my stove is one of the 'phase II' stoves with 2 rods on the top of the Fusion chamber. I noticed the middle solenoid was open on the low burn. Where does this air go? Firebox? Reaction chamber?
Tomorrow I'll clean the turb's and the Reaction chamber to see if that cleans things up a little.
KEN999 your thermostat will run steady ON when you have a 4 degree differential between set and room temp. the 6 times an hour cycle only kicks in at matching numbers. Most have a smart setting now that cycles the stat OFF as it approaches the set temp , say 75 setting 74 room so the stat doesn't overheat the home. I think you have other issues. Did you put rads in for the boiler or a heat exchanger set up from an exsisting boiler in the house. 185 boiler temp will only give you around 165 after heat exchanger witch cuts radiator BTU output in half.
I find my e classic burns the cleanest when I stop playing with it :D
superwd6 - That is what I was thinking on the t-stat cycles. I still couldn't raise the house above 73 even when I locked a temp in. I'll monkey with it more when it gets cold again, but I think I'll need to crank up the heat in the basement to bring the first floor temps up as it appears that 48' of baseboard isn't quite enough. I have the boiler hook directly into my furnace downstairs, no heat exchanger.
What kind of temp drop should I see in the basement between the supply and return line?
I had plenty of wood left in the boiler this AM...the boiler probably would have made 30-36 hrs with our current temps.
Lotsa smoke tonight when I got home from work and went to load it...I cleaned the RC, checked the turbs...I noticed more smoke than usual when all shut down, so I scraped what I could off the bypass flue from the loading door side. It looked a little better a few minutes ago, no smoke while idling. I'm letting it burn down some more before I put anymore wood on it for the night.
Just when I think I'm getting somewhere with this thing ::) ...lol...
Things look better this AM. I think there were too many coal from overloading it Sunday.
Looks to me like both the stove and I will be much happier sticking to the 2x a day loading schedule.
Yup...too much coals.
Came home tonight to the stove running and perfectly clear stack. It's getting to be a ritual, pulling in the driveway and looking to see what temp the stove is at. Today it was at 181 and I thought...
"Good it should be coming on soon and I'll get to see if it is STILL smoking."
I cocked and ear and hopped out of the truck to be welcomed be the sound of the fan.
Saaweet!!.... 8).... It was ALREADY running...
I opened her up and saw a substantial bed of coals so I let it run until 7:30 or so....figgered I better let the coals burn down as much as I could before the nightly loading. I went out and rooted around BIG TIME in the firebox with my custom bent 5/8" rebar hook, as the back was caked in pretty good. I made good and sure the back airholes were open and the air was free flowing before I put another charge in it. I've got a bit of oak mixed in this row, which I thought was all maple.
Just for grins I measured the load in the wheelburrow before I loaded it. 22"W x 23"L x 12" D. That is a level load in my WB. The weather looks like it is going to warm up a tick until the first part of next week, so I'm going to just load that amount 2x a day and see what happens.
BTW...I looked at the pump while I was out there goofing around tonight...I've got a Taco 0014 on the boiler. Is that TOO much with an 80' run of T-Pex??
Might that be the reason why I'm not getting enough heat dump in the house when it get's cold?
Hi Ken,
Thanks for the updates. Enjoy logging on (no pun intended) and reading your thoughts.
Would it be possible to see a picture of your custom bent 5/8" rebar hook? The back of my 2300 is caked up quite a bit also and I'm looking for ways to get things cleaned up somewhat. Thanks.
Jim
Oh....It's a beauty... ;D
I took a 6' or so piece of rebar and put a 4" bend in one end to dig with, then a 10" or so bend in the other for a hand hold, somewhat aligned...
Nothing special really, I just did it in the vise a work.
5/8" is a little whippy, 3/4" would probably be better/stiffer.
I'll take a pic of it if your want, but it's really nothing special...just me bieng a smart azz....
Ken,if it's too big it will burn itself out in a few months.Something about the water is still moving fast when it hits the fins,pump.I went through 2 of them.Bought them both back and got them replaced for free but knew something was wrong after the 2nd one.I have 30 feet of run and had one too big on mine.I forgot the size.I went down to a Taco 7 and have plenty of heat and no problems.This worked for me.
Went out this AM and things had burned down pretty good. I found a couple of firebricks uprooted and one of my bars covering the FC was dislodged...great...The bricks were partially covering the hole and likely were adding to the smoke level that I had been seeing as of late. Seems I better tone down the coal stirring sessions.
I monkeyed with it for a few minutes but had to get going to work. I put a small load in hoping to have things calmed down by this afternoon so I could shovel it out and recombobulate things. I managed to get the bricks out, one was broke...good thing I have the model that came with all the brick on the sides of the firechamber...I got 20 or so spares laying on the workbench in the garage.
Came home tonight with a respirator from work and got to digging it out. I think I'll wear the respirator more often as I'm a little leary of all that soot floating around when I'm working on the stove.
I got it shoveled out and cleaned it up good, then put some fine splits back over the FC hole to keep all the ash/coals from dumping back down into the FC when I put them back in the stove. 1/2 hour-45 minutes total and I was all done and the boiler started the climb back up to 185 from 153. Time check...4:45. I went out at 6:15 and it was at 183 and idling. I put another load in it for the night and called it another fine day in the life of a 2300...lol...
Well...things have been pretty good lately. I get some smoke right after loading, but other than that it's not too bad.
I've been wondering if the boiler makes enough heat with the smaller loads though. It seemed to be burning more wood with little loads compared to the normal wheelborrow load. With the holiday weekend I was home often so I played a little and loaded it more often. No real 'data' to back up my theory, but I expected less consumption with the warmer weather we had over the weekend. Could be me though.
Tomorrow will finish up the row I've been working on since the 20th. Not too bad... 0.57 chord of hardwood in 10 days. It sounds like alot but consider that we are replacing 4-5 chord/year burned in a PE Summit insert AND 200+ gallons of oil EVERY month during winter. Our house has never been warmer either.
I've got some more insulating to do on the pex lines outside and in to trap ALL the heat I can, but realistically, things will not change a whole lot until we upgrade the insulation in the house.
Anyone else get some real gooey build-up in the back corners of their boiler? I've been pulling the coals foward all the time to keep the air holes in the back open, but I'm starting to wonder if I should leave some of them back there to burn up all that oooz sliding down the walls of the upper fire chamber.
yup, i get the goo too. I use a long ice scraper and pry it off and let it burn up. I am going to get another length of pipe tommorow(that will make 3) to see if it will help with all the smoke that rolls out the door everytime i load it. If i dont load it before i shower for bed the old lady throws me out of the rack and makes me shower again.. :D >:(
That's one of my wife's complaints too...I stink after loading the stove. Before too, but she must have grown accustomed to that by now...lol...
I'm finding that I can minimize the stank by bumping up the setpoint to start the fan and fire the stove, pulling the bypass, then going to the wood pile with the wheelborrow, giving the stove time to clear itself. By the time I get back to the stove, I should have good flame in the firebox, which helps pull the smoke up the stack while I open the door SLOWLY.
I've been thinking alot about adding another section as well. I'll be curious to hear how you fare if you do add the third stack. Keep us posted.
I put the 3rd pipe on today, didnt help at all with the smoke rolling out the door. The dealer swore up and down that for every extra piece of pipe the stove should perform better, oh well, i tried.
sounds like your dealer needs money!
Highlander, what did they charge you for the extra section of pipe?
I think retail is 225.00 but if you bought the stove from them you pay 150.00.
Were you having trouble keeping the boiler lit? Or having problems with good gasification? Or needing to clear any smoke above a roof line of a neighbor?
Those would be the only three reasons I can think of to add more chimney.
I have the same problem (condition) of the smoke rolling out when the door is opened, especially after the unit has just shut down. I think the concept is to keep the firebox relatively sealed from oxygen/draft during the quiescent period; this will naturally keep the smoke dense and enclosed in the firebox.
The only way the chimney will draft the firebox after opening the bypass is if the air in the chimney is warm, and there is a way to let some free air into the firebox, which is unlikely much after after the unit shuts down and all the solenoids close. I don't think your dealer understands the principles of chimney drafting when it is applied to a closed "cold" firebox, such as the 2300.
Our wives must have all gone to the same rule-school: no smelling like smoke in bed, no matter how much money you're saving! I've learned to fling open the door and jump back away from the smoke until it clears. :-)
(Earlier this year I needed to use the paperclip trick to keep the unit lit during the low heat loads. This kept a little free air filling the firebox and venting the smoke out of the chimney. With the paperclip in place the amount of rolling smoke that came out after opening the door was much less. Problem is that during the off or quiescent period, the unit would always smoke a little as it helped to keep the coals lit.)
Lately I've been pulling the bypass and opening the door just a few inches. Most of the time the air coming in those few inches helps to push it out the chimney and clear things up in the firebox. Although there are those few times where the fire just rages out the door no matter what. In that case I just go back in the house and pop a cold one.
Jim
my third length was for smoke dissapation to keep it away from house and nieghbor. Might add a fourth length
CB has addressed the smoke rolling out the door on the newest model. After opening the door the blower turns on to help clear the smoke. Seems like a retro fit of that would be easy (but no real money in it for CB).
I have a short narrow board that I prop on the door switch to keep the blower blowing. It helps as long as the system is calling for heat.
...seems like a 4-6" smoke flap would help too...
Another row gone, 6/10th's of a chord in 10 days.
I've been cutting myself too close on the loadings lately and burning up too much of the coal bed. I gave the firebox a good cleaning the other day when I had to coal pile real low. My stove doesn't have all the holes shown in the back like the sticker next to the door shows. The sticker shows two small holes either side of a large center hole...???...I've got one little hole about two inches in from the corner. I've got the last version that had firebrick and two bars covering the Fusion Chamber.
I've had lot's of trouble lately with the fire going out. I've been mizing in the pine and I think the combination of quicker burning wood and warmer temps has been giving me fits.
I'll paperclip the boiler tonight and see if that helps.
just got my 2300 going trying to heat my pool with it. my pump for the pool is off during the night and with boiler not calling for heat at night by morning when the pool pump kits on the boiler fire is out and won't restart and i lose my temp. also i put a pulse timer kit on what should that be set at. should the wood just go in one way and should i pack it full. i need help. THANKS!!!!
Sounds like you will need to relight the fire everyday.
Ken,
The winter has passed....your reports seemed to stop back in Jan. So, how do you feel about the e-classic? Would you buy it again? Or would you look at a different gasifier?
I'm planning to make the decision soon....hope to be heating this winter with an outdoor gasifier.
e-classic seems to have a long thread of issues....
Econoburn firebox is too small for me...only 21" long.
Empyre looks OK...hope to learn more about their longevity though...and storage would be a real requirement.
Garn would be nice....but expensive (though storage is already included), requires the garn barn.....
Thanks for your opinions/experiences/comments!
Here's some of my later reports.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,41487.0.html
I'd look at a 2400 if I were buying again. The smaller volume water jacket is the only downside compared to our 2300...
If you've got room for 1000 gal. indoor storage tank, the Econoburn is likely a better boiler as the refractory between the upper and lower burn chambers should last longer than the Fusion Chamber in the CB's. Ours is ruptured and I haven't got over to the dealer to get the replacement. I think the dealers ought to be replacing them for free and updating the stove with the new holes, but it looks like it will all be up to me, which I think is crap on a boiler that has only been burned since Dec.
Other than that things seems to be working well. I'm still burning the 2300 once a day for DHW.
I run the Econoburn EBW-200-O with 1000 gals. storage and have had no issues whatsoever, it's a very simple wood burning machine. I honestly can't believe the hoops E-Classic owners jump through to make their gasifiers work. Could it be that the brainiacs over at Central Boiler did not understand the science behind the European gasifiers before they went to the drawing board or did they think they were going to re-invent the wheel??? Then unleashed it on the public market without any R+D??? Tarm has been making wood gasification boilers for 40 years in Denmark and they just might have figured out what works and what doesn't over that time period. Everything has to be proportioned from the size of the wood box and water jacket to the amount of secondary air that needs to be added. Econoburn followed that path, Central boiler cut across the field and got lost! ::)
Shuswapian
1. Many E-Classic owners don't feel that they have a problem. It's the only outdoor wood furnace I've ever owned and, with one winter behind me, I feel your claims are a tad exagerated.
2. Manufactured in Europe of not, you should be operating an EPA approved device. Econoburn is not EPA approved for phase 2 burning practices. (see EPA list of cleaner hydonic heaters).
So while you tout one device over another, and, while this technology has been in use in Europe more than in the US, someone choosing an outdoor furnace needs to take into account the current and future regs regarding wood fuel. Your perfect unit is illegal in Maryland and in much of the northeast!
Doctorb
Shuswapian,
I have a Central Boiler E-Classic 1400 and I haven't jumped through any hoops. I feel it is a very good unit and I'm very satisfied with mine.
What proportions do you feel are off on the E-Classics and why?
Dean
I have been happy with my e-2300.
being new product, there was the retro-fit with reaction chamber, and drilling extra drain holes, but this was small amount of work compared to moving 6-8 cord of wood per year the boiler req. for winter in Maine.
I think biggest problem people have is burning green wood.
JJ
econoburn is an indoor unit isn't it? 1000 gallon storage? I guess if one of my kids don't mind losing a bedroom we can compare boilers :D
jj u said u used 6 to 8 cord all year. this will be my first year with my 2300. my friend has a 6048 and thinks the fire box is way to small and i will have to fill it alot. i live in southern michigan. and he said i will use about the same amount of wood. how big is your house and is it a new or old house. mine is a old farm house but alot of up dates also.
thanks jason
Hi Jason,
I am heating 3000 square feet. Half of this was built in 1985, the other half in 2004; so mix of old and new windows, and 4" walls and 6" walls. New part is built better.
My experience with e-2300 and some of the problems I read, are due to overloading the furnace, which buries the air holes.
I load the stove twice a day. Just before I leave for work (7:30am) and when I get home (7-8pm). Just load what the stove will burn, which is never chock full. I usually fill 1/2 to 3/4 way to top. Single full wheelbarrow does it. If there are logs left over which have not broken down to coals, I load less.
I think fire box is big enough.
JJ
Central Boiler Outdoor Wood Furnace Firebox Sizes
Classic 6048 60 x 48 x 36 = 106,680 = 60 cubic feet
E-Classic 2300 36 x 30 x 41 = 44,280 = 25.6 cubic feet
E-Classic 1400 32 x 24 x 32 = 24,576 = 14.2 cubic feet
Our E-Classic 1400 holds enough wood to make it 12 hours heating our 4,300 square foot home. I seldom fill it clear up, but I do not have a problem when it's filled to the top. It will hold an entire heaping wheel barrel of wood or if you think about it; 14.2 cubic feet is 1/10th of a cord of wood. I would like to think a 1/10 of a cord of wood would last 12 hours or there is another problem.
So Jason, in my opinion your 2300 will hold enough wood and it will also burn much less than the 6048. I'm basing this on owners in the area that have owned the 6048 and upgraded to the e-classic. If the classic burns twice the amount of wood as the e-classic, the box should be twice the size.
Jason-
With a firebox the size of the 6048, I can understand why your friend thinks that the firebox on the E-Classic 2300 is too small. If you have good dry fuel, the 2300 will easily outperform the 6048. Less smoke (a lot less when running well), less wood consumed, and a lot less environmental worries.
I burned 9-10 cords last winter. My wood consumption is high because I have a 4200 - 4500 ft2 house with not one but 2 basements with two separate heating and HW systems for different parts of this farmhouse gone mad. It's like heating 2 houses that are joined in the middle.
Anyway, once you get the hang of it, the 2300 will suit your needs just fine.
Doctorb
thanks for all the help u guys. i just got my shed filled today and what u guys r saying i hope to have enough wood in the shed i think i got about 10 to 11 cord in it. it is 12 by 16 shed.
Doc you seem a wee bit defensive...have you got something to lose??? If you think everything is hunky dory with the E-Classic than gooood for you. One look at the numerous posts on this forum (and others) regarding E-Classic's problems should be enough for new buyers to be wary of this boiler. Remove fire bricks, drill holes in the boiler plate...*edited*??? At least until CB works out all the bugs.
I don't want to get into a pissing match(?), I'm simply trying to open up the discourse on this forum to more options and broader discussion. Most are on here to learn and there is a whole lot to learn about wood gasification. There are at least 10 other proven gasification boilers on the market that have not had any of the the problems the E-Classic has had. Some have but the companies are no longer in business. I think this is something people should know before they drop $15,000.
To answer other questions
1. My Econoburn is a 200,000 BTU outdoor unit.
2. I wish I had 2000 gallons of water storage!
3. I heat 4500 sq. ft. as well but on 5 cords per year because with 1000 gallons of storage it NEVER idles so it NEVER wastes wood energy.
(shuswapian, we aren't a typical internet forum and stay away from foul language, even the abbreviations. We make an effort not to turn discussions into personal arguments too. Admin)
Shuswapian
You are right, no urination contest here. I have nothing to lose but my oil costs. If you are happy with yours, and I am happy with mine, then good for us. Sure, I have read the posts, and some 2300 owners have had problems, but with a minute or two of daily care the thing works great. I checked the Econoburn site. There is not a whole lot of info on their outdoor burner. They do NOT list it as EPA phase 2 approved and it was not listed on the phase one list, which is now outdated.
Where are you located? 5 cords of wood to heat a house that size for an entire heating season is remarkable.
I don't understand what you mean by "never idles". If the furnace is going all the time, it must be burning wood. It's the idle mode that allows you to save fuel between the requests for heat demand.
Doctorb
Quote from: shuswapian on September 20, 2010, 02:08:43 AM
One look at the numerous posts on this forum (and others) regarding E-Classic's problems should be enough for new buyers to be wary of this boiler. Remove fire bricks, drill holes in the boiler plate...What???
First of all, this is a family site and I don't appreciate your initializing your profanity, so if you would like to continue to use the Forestry Forum, don't do it again. Kapeesh?
Okay, now an observation, and a neutral one from someone that has spent a decade moderating and building the Forestry Forum and has a real good handle on why threads are started and why people may seek out a forum that may be discussing, as in this case, a product.
Each and everyone of you that came to this forum to discuss the e-classic did so because you are having or have had some sort of problem or issue. I can almost guarantee that not a one of you was thinking "Gee, I love my wood boiler so much, and its so trouble free, I should seek out others within the world that are so blessed" Well if you did do that, you are just a plain weirdo.
The deal is, that is why you see the overwhelming majority of posts as "troubled owners". Not that there isn't a problem or problems, because I don't know, but don't let the fact that you see all those complaints in one place lead you to believe there is some massive issue. Depending on how you stand, and your point of view, molehills can look like mountains. Try to be a mole and use the correct perspective.
Jeff
I appreciate your post and insight. I came to the FF because of my E-Classic. Members can read of my troubles from last January. Because of the FF, I found simple solutions to my issues, easily corrected by routine maintenance. My problems from before are molehills now. So I learned from the Forum, worked out the glitches, and now feel like I have a confident grip on the product. Thanks to all those that helped me out when I was new at this and thanks to the FF for providing me the venue to learn from other's experiences.
Who knows, I might make it to the FF Pig Roast next year !!
Doctorb
Just an insight for you guys.
I've been in Middleton WI for 3 weeks testing our new product for EPA Phase II and all that other stuff, and I've learned a few things that kind of surprised me.
Relative to the OWB's with small chambers you guys are discussing, the EPA Phase II test procedure is set up such that a burner is unlikely to pass the test unless the burn chamber is small. The companies don't make them small because it is good for them, they do it because they have to to pass the tests.
Frankly, after seeing what guys like CB had to go through to pass the test, I'm impressed they were able to do it at all.
Bioman-
Can you explain to a layman how the size of the burn chamber affects the tests? Do larger burn chambers lead to a less complete burn of the smoke and thus an increase in particulate emissions?
Doctorb
I don't claim to be an expert but I'll tell it the way I understand it.
First, it is worth noting the tests performed do not represent the way the unit will be used in the real world. This helps explain why a machine can be certified and then not perform at perceived expectations. Tests are performed with perfect fuel and under ideal monitoring conditions.
In the case of OWB's, one of the tests is to run the machine at 15% or less of the rated output of the burner. The machine is fueled and weighed, the output is controlled at this low rate and the machine is run until the total weight doesn't change any longer (the wood is totally burned up). This burn rate is hard to pass because emissions numbers are tied to efficiency. Low burn rates are inherently inefficient. The longer the machine runs, the less efficient the machine is and hence the higher emissions numbers. The small chamber makes it easier to pass the test because it doesn't last as long. This particular test accounts for nearly half of the total results so it is important to pass this one. The other three tests are the high burn, the 16-24% and the 25-50% burn rates.
There may be more to it, but that's my understanding. Maybe someone from the forum who knows more about this that is willing to share.
Bioman
Were you at Warnock Hersey doing the testing?
Appreciate your insight given on the testing.
We're using Intertek in Middleton.
That's right, they bought WH
I guess I heard that and had forgotten. We say some WC tags around the shop.
Most of us inquiring about outdoor wood furnaces are consumers, not manufacturers or regulators. Bioman and Beenthere, you two seem to have been on the inside of this EPA testing process to one degree or another. Is there any insight you could pass on to us regarding 1) future changes in regulations or testing procedures, 2) real world differences between the available model furnaces that are not noted in the tests, and 3) what future improvements can be expected within the industry? Do either of you own an outdoor wood furnace? Which one did you choose and why? I am sorry to try and put you on the spot, but, I have found that, outside of the EPA phase 2 testing list, there is no real comparative data among the available devices. You could purchase one tomorrow and have a "supposedly" better one come out the next day. On the comsumer end of this, we are a little blind. Thanks for whatever info. you can provide.
Doctorb
doctorb
I have been in the 3rd party testing facility mentioned, and used to know the testing engineers setting up the tests. Not sure I'd know anyone there now. I've not been involved with EPA. To me they are an enviro-laden Gov't agency run amok.
But I do know, that trying to corall all the many variables that enter into a test vs. the many, many more variables that users will add to the field use of OWB adds to the confusion and frustration.
Gov't policy makers likely require some 3rd party testing to certify wood burners so advertising claims can be judged by the consumer. For may years, we had electrical cords and such with the UL approved label. Now there are other 3rd party testing companies that do quite well with certifying that a mfg's claims are on track and can be backed up.
I gather from what Bioman posted, that they were going through such tests to get certain certification of their burner.
As he said, Intertek can do very controlled testing with a very controled load of wood that probably is not very realistic in the real world. Species, moisture content, size of wood load, cleanliness of the burner, wind, outside air temp and RH, draft, and a host of other variables will enter into how well a wood burner will perform.
I have an indoor boiler, not an OWB. It is a lot of effort to figure out what works and what doesn't work to keep the right amount of the right wood burning for the longest period of time with the least amount of wasted burning of wood but enough heat to keep the house warm when the temps drop. Burning wood isn't like flipping the switch on the gas boiler and just walking away. :)
Your summary and frustration of what is missing in data for comparison is real, and I think right on. But I don't foresee any agency shedding any light on the "consumer end of this, we are all blind" statement. Too many variables, and getting 3rd party certification has been the best at providing some across the board comparisons. And that certification is very expensive, and has to be paid for by the consumer. If a new model comes out the next day, certification has to be done all over again.
Likely certification puts a real damper on new development. But that is what Gov't control does very well.
And for EPA, I think they would like to see zero wood burners, IMO.
beenthere
You sum things up nicely.
Those of us trying to introduce new technology to meet future needs/standards are up against old test procedures. In our case there are no procedures that match what our machine does. The guys at Intertek have to combine procedures from different technologies to satisfy EPA yet not represent what we're doing. The lab guys at Intertek don't have any other options. I do know 'they' are working on the next set of standards but don't expect to see anything released until 2012 at the earliest.
doctorb
1. As I said above, I'm hearing it will be 2012 at the earliest. Thankfully for us, the chairman of the ASTM standards committee has seen our equipment and has added this technology to the standards discussions. The challenges we're facing in the current tests have nothing to do with the emissions they test for or care about.
2. Hopefully future tests will represent real world applications - I doubt it though because assuming future emissions standards are at least as strict, there is no way most (or maybe any) of the OWB's could pass these tests if they were run that way.
3. Personally, I think we are bringing one future technology to the market right now. I believe the future lies in technology that can utilize the least expensive, locally available and most versatile fuel supplies. If local jobs can be created (local fuel producers) and consumers get access to cheaper fuels using technology that is smoke free, I don't know how it can get much better than that. Especially if said technology has a future eye on CHPC (combined heat power and cooling). The technology we're introducing has auto feed, is both an indoor/outdoor boiler and a fully rated gas backup boiler in the event you can't get fuel or want to go away for extended periods of time.
When it comes to the EPA list keep in mind the Phase 2 program is voluntary. Yes, some areas require the hang tag, and marketing is much simpler if you have the tag. However, it's a bit of a two-edged sword as getting on the list doesn't necessarily mean the equipment is better -it just means the company was able to pass the tests under unique circumstances. So, given the current testing climate it is honestly difficult to determine how a machine will perform and whether it is better because it has been through the program.
Consumers are ultimately the final judge of how well products work. It's too bad manufacturers have to 'voluntarily' make certified machines that are thought to be 'better' for having gone through the rigors of Phase 2 testing.
That said, the program isn't inherently bad. We personally found we needed to make a few changes to our product - good ones for the consumer. The variables are immense and I wouldn't want to be on the committee writing the standards. Trying to figure out how to test all this stuff is a big task.
Well, I guess I have used the "EPA approved list argument" for the last time. In essence then, the EPA doesn't require testing standards of all OWB's, their tests don't shed accurate info on the degree of efficiency / heat production / pollution under real world conditions, and yet they, complicit with state governments, write the regulations for thier use.
Bioman and beenthere, can't thank you enough for the tutorial. I admire people who can make progress in the face of such inane bureaucracy.
Doctorb
You got it......
beenthere- your statement
Quote from: beenthere on September 21, 2010, 11:32:03 AM
And for EPA, I think they would like to see zero wood burners, IMO.
is a bit chilling, in more ways than one.
It's hard to actually grasp the environmental impact of one form of energy use versus another. Oil is drilled and shipped and refined throughout the world. That process uses energy and creates pollution. Natural gas is clean when burned but the fracking (short for fracturing) process to get the gas out of the earth is awful. Solar, while clean, has been expensive and requires lots of room. I don't know the impact of the manufacture of the panels, but it would not seem excessive. Wind seems clean enough but not all of us live on a high ridge. Each of our energy sources has problems and consequenses. With the better methods of wood combustion, and further advances to come, it's hard for me to imagine the EPA outlawing wood as a fuel. It is not hard, however, to envision a failure on their part to accurately compare the total enviromental footprint of each of these energy methods.
Doctorb
Well said.
Thank you Bioman and Benthere for insight on the insanity.
EPA is out of control in my state (mho), req passing the poorly defined testing critera in 2008.
Some manfacuring models were 'frozen out' by the limited testing resources of EPA, and were elimated from my buy list.
Jim
Here's an update and validation of the content in this thread. This comment is posted on the EPA site in regards to testing procedure. They only cover efficiency in the notice. From experience we can tell you the same holds true for emissions and performance. This from the EPA at http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html#foot3 -----
Please Note Energy efficiency numbers that have been calculated using the current test procedure are generating numbers that do not represent actual efficiencies. As such, we have taken down the efficiency column from this web site. Please bear with us while we review this issue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I look forward to new test procedures and some regulation/rating that effect real performance in this industry :)
I think that the above comments by Bioman and beenthere regarding EPA testing of outdoor wood burners should be required reading for all owners and prospective owners of these furnaces, and for all regulators of their use. Doctorb
Ok, Ive been monitoring your post here and found them very informative. Ive recently installed at E-classic 1400 and this is my first wood stove so I had no experience on how it should or shouldn't work compared to others. The Dealer who installed it was an idiot so I wish I would have went with another dealer if I could do it over. First off the guy didn't bring enough ground pipe so it delayed the install til he got his act together. Then the guy started to drill through the basement wall without observing what was on the other side and almost drilled into a water sofner I had along the wall. Then after the stove was installed the dealer didn't purge the air from the pipes and the first time I fired it up the stove boiled over because the water couldn't circulate through the heat exchanger because of the air in the system. Ok, Now that Ive established my authorized dealer in the area is an idiot i'll move on to the stove and I have some questions for you stove experts. Once I got the stove operating properly the stove seems to be performing quite well. Ive always had consistant heat and always at the exact tempature that I have the house thero set at so everything seels to be operating good. The only problem Ive had was the stove went out a couple times and I had to restart the fire. My question is should the half moon in the bottom of the stove be completely covered with coals or should this be kept as clear as possible? Or should I keep a coal bed on it and just poke a hole though it to get air?
Does the firebox temp fluxuate according to the heat demand or should this be normally at a certain tempature? Mine seems to usally be in the 200-300 degree range unless it kicks on to bring the water temp up.
Ive noticed inside the furnace there is a black substance that builds up on the stove. Looks almost like it's melting paint. Ive scraped this off several times and it keeps re-appearing. I noticed this after the first itme I used the stove and it's still doing it after a month of operation. Is this normal or just something a stove will do? is something causing this? Ive noticed on the top of the inside of the stove it looks like a bunch of black drip spots of the black stuff. Hope I dont sound like a idiot but thats the best way to describe it..lol
Thanks in advance for your input.
Guitarjunkie37
Welcome to the FF. You'll find lots of help here.
1. The half moon should definitely be covered. It only becomes uncovered when the fire burns too low. I have an e-2300 as opposed to the e-1400, so I don't know the optimum depth of the coal bed. That's in your instruction manual. Yes, you can poke a hole through the coal bed down through the half moon. I do it often, but I have no proof that it is necessary. When the coal bed becomes finely powdered firmly packed ash, air won't go through very well and it will be time to empty some of it out. Anyway, I can go for days or weeks without seeing the half moon!
2. My stove only measures water temp, not firebox temp. I wish I had that option. As far as the firebox temp is concerned, the stove goes through a cycle, including low burn, high burn and idle. The firebox temp may be different on all three of these points in the cycle. I think that it would fluctuate dependent upon how much demand for heat is requested, assuming that there is enough fuel in the firebox and the air flow was good.
3. The black stuff is creosote. It can clog your air intakes. Notice that a very hot fire removes it. I don't scrape it from the walls, only from the bypass door opening so that the seal on that door remains good, and off the air intake holes to make sure air flow is good. Minimize creosote by burning dry seasoned hardwood. This means getting your wood up and ready a minimum of 6 months in advance. See the seasoning firewood thread.
There is a learning curve here and you will get frustrated. Bring your troubles onto the FF and we can help solve them. We have all been there.
Doctorb
Hey Guitarjunkie37,
Good advice from doctorb regarding the coals over the half moon. I find if my coals get too deep the boiler will labor to bring water up to temp. Heavy smoke and lack of gassification are sure signs of this. After a while you'll be able to tell how it's running and where it is in its cycle just by looking at what's coming out of the stack.
If your losing fires, it's telling me either your wood isn't seasoned well enough or you need to (add?) or adjust the pulse timer to keep a good bed of coals. Been there done that!
Good luck!
Time for an update I suppose:
Recently I drilled the two holes in the rear of the firebox to allow for more airflow and better more complete burn. Typically I'd have to really work to keep the back lower portion of the firebox from building up with a big 'bock' of nasty unburned gunk. Since drilling the new holes this problem is gone completely. I've never had it so good maintaining the coal bed. It's really hard to believe these boilers even made it out of R&D without the additional holes. I used a 5/8" bit as it was what I could borrow. Turns out the corner holes, the last ones going down the sides, were smaller in diameter than 5/8" so I opened them up some too while I was in there. The two present in the back were 5/8" IIRC. Regardless of size, the additional airflow made a huge difference. If you haven't done it yet, do it. You'll be glad you did.
The other modification I made was removing the bottom, low burn, solenoid and attached disk. Bye bye low burn mode. Another huge improvement IMHO. The stove cycles quicker and smokes less at re-fire time. Without any real timing of things, I'd guess the stove gets up to temp AT LEAST 1/3 quicker, maybe even 2x as fast. It's another mod I'd recommend to any of the 2300 owners out there like myself who have older, non-Firestar controllers. The other nice thing is, on my bigger temp cycles, when I manually running the stove while home, the stove doesn't haul right along to the old low burn mode set point, clicking off a degree every 1.5 min, then fall flat when the solenoid drops. It just chugs right up to temp then shuts down with no over-run in temp. Another feature that should have never made it past R&D.
Things have been real good lately...I dipped into some primo maple a week or so ago and I've never seen the firebox so clean. It looks as good, maybe even better than it did at the end of the summer when I was buning 50 degree swings everyday for DHW. Unreal...no goop, the little bit of build-up is easily scraped down as it's nice and dry, not sticky. I'd like to attribute this to the mods, but I think it's more to do with the nice wood. I'l find out soon as I'll be through the nice maple and be into a mix of hardwood softwood in a month or so.
Now if I could get my dealer over here to swap out the blown FC (since April... ::)) and do a warrantied swap out of my controller display, I'll be sorta happy. Oh...I need to replace the cover on the RC door. It's warped.
Quote from: ken999 on December 18, 2009, 11:40:48 PM
Haha...yeah...I've been purposely misleading my better half for years too...
I take it you are loading in between the airholes on the sides without blocking the flow? I'm not sure I can load my 2ft'ers that way without causing trouble. I'm holding the wood towards the door in hopes that I at least keep the back inlets open. Our stove seems to burn from the front as others have noted, so I'm still getting a gob of 'stuff' in the back 1/4 of the firebox...more than I'd like to see anyways.
Tomorrow, I'd like to get things burned way down and give the boiler a good scraping and cleaning.
Got the mother of all fireballs this afternoon...phew...worst one yet...thought of you when I did it.
Managed to keep my eyebrows though, so I didn't score too many bonus points. ;D I must have looked like the former President Bush ducking a hurled shoe when that baby came screaming out at me...kinda glad my wife didn't see that one.
One night I came home after a few too many frosty cold ones, and dident pull the bypass before opeing the door. My wife was stand on the porch watching as a jiant fireball shot ot as i opened it, and singed my entire head. Lol I looked like Michle Jackson after that one!!!!! lol
Quote from: shuswapian on September 20, 2010, 02:08:43 AM
Doc you seem a wee bit defensive...have you got something to lose??? If you think everything is hunky dory with the E-Classic than gooood for you. One look at the numerous posts on this forum (and others) regarding E-Classic's problems should be enough for new buyers to be wary of this boiler. Remove fire bricks, drill holes in the boiler plate...*edited*??? At least until CB works out all the bugs.
I don't want to get into a pissing match(?), I'm simply trying to open up the discourse on this forum to more options and broader discussion. Most are on here to learn and there is a whole lot to learn about wood gasification. There are at least 10 other proven gasification boilers on the market that have not had any of the the problems the E-Classic has had. Some have but the companies are no longer in business. I think this is something people should know before they drop $15,000.
To answer other questions
1. My Econoburn is a 200,000 BTU outdoor unit.
2. I wish I had 2000 gallons of water storage!
3. I heat 4500 sq. ft. as well but on 5 cords per year because with 1000 gallons of storage it NEVER idles so it NEVER wastes wood energy.
(shuswapian, we aren't a typical internet forum and stay away from foul language, even the abbreviations. We make an effort not to turn discussions into personal arguments too. Admin)
I like my e-classic 2300, but when i bought it used i dent care if it was EPA Aproved of not, I bought it cause it was a wicked good deal (half price) 1 year oled. But if I found another unit that I thought worked better and was cheaper, I would have bought that...made in Errope , approved here or not...I dont care ...who is gonna get me the wood stove police.... Enjoy your stove whatever it is if it heats your house well.
Logging, etc, etc.! ;)
Wow. You went way back for that quote! We haven't seen Mr suswapian around here for a while!
I must respectfully disagree with your "as long as it heats your house, who cares?" post. I understand your sentiment, but know why the regs and restrictions have been applied.
There were many non-gassifying stoves out there, and neighbors started to complain. The townships and municipalities turned to the Clean Air people at the EPA, who took measurements of the pollutants and the particulate matter near these older type stoves. They found the air unsafe and worked with the manufacturers to create a less polluting product, hence, the EPA Phase 2 program for OWB's.
Now, if you have regs in place where you live, and if your neighbors complain, and if you can not show that an older type stove was installed before the regs took effect, they can make you remove the stove. If your neighbors don't care, then no one will care, and you can burn however you please. But cutting down on pollution can't be considered a bad thing, regardless of whether your neighbors are bothered or not. Just my opinion, and not meant to be inflammatory.
Quote from: doctorb on March 02, 2012, 04:56:15 PM
Logging, etc, etc.! ;)
Wow. You went way back for that quote! We haven't seen Mr suswapian around here for a while!
I must respectfully disagree with your "as long as it heats your house, who cares?" post. I understand your sentiment, but know why the regs and restrictions have been applied.
There were many non-gassifying stoves out there, and neighbors started to complain. The townships and municipalities turned to the Clean Air people at the EPA, who took measurements of the pollutants and the particulate matter near these older type stoves. They found the air unsafe and worked with the manufacturers to create a less polluting product, hence, the EPA Phase 2 program for OWB's.
Now, if you have regs in place where you live, and if your neighbors complain, and if you can not show that an older type stove was installed before the regs took effect, they can make you remove the stove. If your neighbors don't care, then no one will care, and you can burn however you please. But cutting down on pollution can't be considered a bad thing, regardless of whether your neighbors are bothered or not. Just my opinion, and not meant to be inflammatory.
Very well said doctorb!
Thanks for the update Ken. I am sure this post has and will continue to help many.
Dean