Hello again! After getting so many helpful tips about portable mills on my other threads, I ran off and did a bunch of research. Now I'm back to verify my findings with you guys. Here's my situation:
We need to mill lumber and posts/beams from the trees on our property in order to build our house. The primary needs of this mill is to saw a moderate amount of logs into framing members that have 1, 2, 3 or 4 flat faces. Secondary need is to mill a moderate amount of planks for floor and roof decking. Tertiary needs are to mill a small amount of dimensional lumber for interior wall framing and skirting or other finish mouldings. An ancillary consideration would be milling for personal woodworking projects such as cabinetry and other furniture. The initial investment needs to be balanced against the speed of production, the costs of manufactured goods, the necessity and price of accessories to get the mill to do what we need it to do, and the quality of the end-product (i.e. will we need extra time/money/equipment to make it adequate). Waste is not a particular concern because any slabs or sawdust generated can be readily used on the homestead, and more trees are free and readily available.
This mill will be used in multiple personal projects on the homestead (barn, sheds, garage/shop). It is not our intention, nor desire, to become professional or semi-professional sawyers for additional income, nor to resell the mill used as we will have continued need for it for the foreseeable future. Since we are owner/builders whose primary focus is on developing the homestead as quickly as possible, we need to balance the production rate of the mill with the complexity of acquiring, learning and operating it. Operating costs, such as consumables (and the ease of obtaining them) and maintenance (and the ease/viability of performing it ourselves) also need to be factored against the monetary, location and time constraints.
We want to keep the majority of our land undeveloped, so do not want to clear cut our lot for timber harvest, or spend a great deal of time and effort clearing trails all over our property through thick brush and forest. Since most of the building-quality trees are randomly located on the property, we will be cherry-picking the best ones, which may or may not be located near any existing trails or areas that are easy to clear. It is essential that any mill we purchase be able to easily be transported to the tree so it can be sawn where it drops and then transported back out as lumber. It is likely that this will be done on foot, at the very most a combination of hiking and ATV. Due to budgetary and storage constraints, we should also minimize the amount of additional equipment that may be necessary to transport the timber or the lumber under these circumstances unless it offers significant safety or production benefits.
So our requirements came back as:
· Low to medium price range ($2-3k max), or justifiably high-priced (i.e. everything you need is "in the box" and lumber quality is "practically finished" - so awesome that we can sacrifice getting a well drilled or getting solar pv, etc)
· Easy, low cost operation
· Easy, low cost maintenance
· Parts and consumables inexpensive and easy to locate
· Durability and longevity
· Able to operate effectively in extreme cold climate
· Extreme portability without (much/any) mechanical assistance
· Ability to cut smaller diameter (< 20") and variable length (short and long) logs into usable lumber
· Safe single-person operation is a very-nice-to-have
· Located in AK, shipping/freight included, or low-cost shipping/freight is a very-nice-to-have
Given those parameters, we're back to the CSM. The BSM & SBM are all great and would definitely be faster with a thinner kerf, but they are still a bit out of our price range and aren't quite "mill it where it falls" portable enough like we need given our terrain... if we can't afford the mill, we certainly can't afford any specialized handling equipment either ;). All the CSM, regardless of manufacture, definitely weigh A LOT less than the other types, which is a big consideration when shipping to AK (because, we're like on the moon or something!). I had a chance to test drive an Alaskan CSM, and agree that it would probably be just a little too rough for flooring and exposed framing; and not nearly fast enough for the miles of BF we'll need in the end (it's also a PITA to set up super nicely to get the best lumber).
Now I've pretty much narrowed down my options to the Logosol M7 and the Wood Bug. While the Wood Bug is nice and I appreciate personal innovation, the Logosol just seems like an easier set-up all around. Ok, I'm very biased toward Swedish engineering, too. Both rigs are comparably priced; however, for that price, the Logosol includes the M7, Husqvarna 385 XPand the Log Cabin Moulder (if I wanted it). It also comes with the starter-kit, which is my first set of chains at least. One thing that does concern me, and it's probably not even an issue, is that the WoodBug is specifically designed for smaller diameter logs (less than 24"), and the Logosol doesn't really mention or demonstrate any small stuff. I just want to make sure it can handle them nicely, since the average home log size in our area is between 12 & 16", with a few up to 24 or 36. If I find and wanted to mill anything bigger than that, I will swallow my pride and have our local sawyer do it.
So, maybe any CSM or Logosol owners can chime in to let me know:
1) How does the M7 handle small diameter?
2) should I just get my own Husqvarna 395 XP or 3120 XP (or Stihl MS 660 or 880) and just get the base M7 (it's also on special), or will the 385 be plenty big enough for the size trees I'm working with?
3) Does anyone have the moulder attachment and find it useful?
4) Does that moulder attachment use any of the standard Logosol knives or just the log home ones?
All the rest of you can chime in of course and give me a reality check if I've missed my mark!
Thx :-*
Cat,everything you want just cries for a swing mill.You can buy a electric hand plainer and DanG quick dress exposed wood.Not badmouthing chainsaw mills but you would soon tire of it and not complete many projects.Frank C.
Hey Frank - while my husband likes to think he's super-human, I think even he would get a little tired having to lug or wheel a 300 lb carriage (Petersen ATS - the smallest breakdown I could find) around while hiking in dense forest and tundra. I think the multiple, lighter trips to get the rest of the 500 lbs of gear that go with it would just do him in :)
I used the alaskan mill for a while and production is very............ slow, and back breaking as the log laid on the ground. I watched the Logosol work at the Sawlex this year and was impressed. Nice engineering, well built, operator was standing and pushing the saw thru the log, very slow........ also, with frequent stops to change the chain, you would need more than 2-3 chains for a day of cutting though. my guess is order a chainsaw sharpener to go with it and about 10 chains. I believe the shootout results are posted some where to give you an idea of what the production would be like. I do not see a problem with milling small diameter logs with it.
The swing mill would be ideal but I have not found one in your price range or even close, as I have looked for quite a while for something in the $5k range. I agree about hauling the swing mill carriage and equipment as heavy, especially where you will be working, in fact after watching the young bucks at Sawlex do it, I figured I was to old and not strong enough. The only one was the baby swing mill from Peterson, except you needed a generator, and they also pulled the unit out of production, to bad as with a small gas motor it would have been ideal for you. Good luck!
Stephen... I read the Shoot-out results for 2009. Logosol entered their woodworker's mill, which I believe is the essentially the same but geared for shorter logs. The guy admitted that he wasn't as familiar with the WWM as he was with the M7 and had problems calculating with the 1/8" scale the contest was using... but his production was still 73bf/hr (would have been 120+ without the mistakes). He was also running the XP 385... . I think that could go higher with a bigger saw.
I would definitely stock up on chains/bands/blades for any mill I ended up getting, plus the sharpeners that go with them. It's 4 hours to the nearest place for replacements that may or may not even have them. I think we have something like 15 extra chains (and sharpeners, etc) for our firewood saws, just in case LOL.
I like the swings, but they are just a little too steep for me and not 100% site appropriate. The baby swing would have been great, even with a small generator... too bad it's out of production :(
There is a band mill run by chainsaw engine. Can't remember the name, offhand, but, they would be as portable as you want, and, the price is right. RIPSAW I believe is the name. ;D Have you run across them ???
Had a guy saw some SY Pine for me, before I built a mill. Worked OK, for what it was.
Hi Deadheader - I looked into the Ripsaw. It has the same set up and working height problems as the Alaskan, although kerf is less and production slightly higher. It is the right weight & portabilty, and price range though.
But for that kind of set up and price, I could get the Logosol Big Mill and the saw.
You mentioned smoothness of cut. I was thinking band mill would save time and effort down the line with no real need for planing most lumber made.
Quote from: PlicketyCat on December 14, 2009, 07:50:25 AM
Hey Frank - while my husband likes to think he's super-human, I think even he would get a little tired having to lug or wheel a 300 lb carriage (Petersen ATS - the smallest breakdown I could find) around while hiking in dense forest and tundra. I think the multiple, lighter trips to get the rest of the 500 lbs of gear that go with it would just do him in :)
The cut products you haul out won't be any lighter than 300 lb.
More power to you, but I don't see any of this happening for a long enough period of time to finish a cabin. ::)
But I do hope your dream comes true for you, even so. :)
Or you could go with a WM LT-10. Small, Portable, and Wood-mizer has a special on it untill Dec 31.
http://www.woodmizer.com/us/sawmills/manual/lt10/lt10Promo.aspx
_______________________________
Charles
sling_shot
I agree with Beenthere- you're going to find, I suspect, that time to get into where you want to cut plus time spent hauling out the lumber will be deal breaker. Why not devote more effort to getting better access, at least to enough logs to build your cabin, then worry about moving the mill around? Buying a small Woodmizer is money invested, not spent- you can always sell it for about what you paid for it if you do maintenance like you should. And the time saved by NOT having to re-mill or plane or finish your chain-saw scarred boards will save you when heck of a lot of time and evergy, both of which you sound like are tied up in other things anyway.
Just my 3 cents worth- good luck.
Lj
For any logging operation ,even small ones,you must be able to get a truck, tractor,or horse close to where your felling unless of course your highlining.Even lugging out lumber a long distance will get old quick.Build a modest road into your woodlot cut firewood as you go then when you fell a good sized tree you can haul it or its lumber out.Time and effort spent on infrastructure will repay you four fold.I must know whats a Plicketycat?? good luck on your ventures please keep us posted.Frank C.
I have cut spruce lumber with a CSM - with a ripping chain on the cuts were smooth and easy. After I had squared the cant I could cut a 2x10 by 10 feet in a couple minutes.
I cut all day with the same chain , doing a light sharpening during my lunch break. That's because spruce is a soft wood and there is no metal in my trees, probably none in yours either :)
Those Logosol machines are nifty, well engineered tools. I nearly bought one myself. Then I looked at a few used band mills and realized how much faster they were. I will spare you the rest of the story. Also, that was before I found forestry forum.
Your not cutting trees over a huge area so maybe the logosol is best for you. It is light and portable. The price is reasonable. You also get another chainsaw out of the deal. For someone with more time than money it may be a good mill to start with. Transporting finished product seems to make more sense in your situation than hauling logs. After you run it a few years and get better settled you may decide you want a band mill. When that happens you will wonder why you bought the Logosol. ;D
Thanks for all the advice guys.
I know that it would probably be faster to haul the logs to the mill & use a mill with a higher production rate. If I had a proper woodlot -- where all the good big trees were pretty much in one area, I wouldn't hesitate to cut trail into it so I can get a vehicle in there. Unfortunately, while I have plenty of trees that would make good sized house logs on my property, they are peppered randomly throughout my 80 acres. It's' just the way it is up here in second growth forest (forest fire in '69) - trees grow really slow in the cold and the big ones are only big because there is nothing else big around them. If I cut trail into each of them, not only would my lot look like an ant farm, but I'd be clearing trail all summer rather than building. Unless, of course, I spent a couple grand hiring a crew to come out and gouge them out with the front-end loader, decimating everything in their path, and then backfilling with gravel or mining slag to form a driving base in the boggy tundra because we're now allowing the permafrost to melt under the sun. Not exactly what I want to do.
However - if I can drop the trees this spring before breakup/mud season, it will be MUCH easier to haul them out with either my truck & winch, or the ATV & winch, using a sled. The snow is hard-packed, which covers most of the brush/thickets and tussocks that makes hiking, dragging and driving around murder in the summer (even with an arch). I could get much closer to the tree with a vehicle, at least within the range of our winch cable, which would allow me to retrieve them and bring most of them to a central location that's cleared; or at least to get the mill closer and the lumber out easier. The snow also keeps rocks and other debris to a minimum if you do drag. A little more of a PITA than having a log boom or skid loader or hydraulics, but it will work... we do have a winch mount in the bed of the truck, so at least we don't have to pick up the heavier trees and lift them into the bed if dragging isn't good in a particular place.
I looked into the Wood-Mizer LT10 since it's within my price range now that it's on sale. Three things concerned me - 1) water lube, maybe not the best option in a place that is below freezing 6 months of the year. 2) weight - unless I can find a dealer or a used one in AK the freight is going to kill me; even if there is one in AK, unless it's really close, we're looking at at least a day's drive or transportation costs to get it. AK is REALLY big with a very minimual road system- very few truack deliveries down my unpaved highway, so we have to think about about air caro (and whether it's too big/heavy for the planes that can land at the little airstrip -- otherwise it has to helo dropped $$$) or barging it up the river. 3) average production rate is 100 bf/hr... same as the M7.
As for quality of end-product right out of the mill. I've read a lot about this and checked out the stuff some of the locals have produced with their mills (CSM and BSM - no swing in my area). What it comes down to, in most cases, is operator skill, species of wood, and keeping the blade/chain sharp. I've seen wavy rough boards from a BSM, and I've seen light-sand only boards come from a CSM. I'm just not entirely convinced there is an inherent quality benefit to any one saw type... at least not in the entry-level category.
I do realize that the mill is an investment, not an expense. But there are other equally, possibly more, important investments I need to account for in my budget... like running water, electricity, food, farm equipment. If I had to say which I had more of, time or money; it would definitely be time. I don't mind taking some extra time to do something or to finish it up nicely because I enjoy the work and I'd rather take my time and enjoy it than rush rush rush just to "git 'er dun" and be stressed about it. If the house isn't done by next September, I'm not opposed to living in the tent another year. It's the whole triagnle of expectations - Fast, Cheap, & Quality - you can have two, but not all three.
Thanks Sprucegum -- most of what we'll be using this on is spruce. Hardwoods are rare, only birch and aspen.
Hi the Skill Mill that Petersons Portable Sawmills produced would be right up your alley .I know they do not produce it now but if you contact them on ther toll free number1-877-327-1471 and ask for Aaron he may be able to help you .I bought a WPF model sawmill from them and picked it up in June it is a great machine .Good luck in your mill hunting .
Thanks Firefighter - I'll give Aaron a call next time I drive into town (no phones or cell reception out here). Do you know what time zone the office is in? I'd hate to drive 20 miles just leave a voice message because the office is closed LOL!
Howdy
Before I built my portable CSM I went and cut some lumber on a M7. I thought the mill turned out very nice lumber and it would be a perfect mill for a woodworker. It wasn't quite what I wanted so I built a ProCut type portable mill, but part of the reason I built instead of bought was for the publicty for my woodshop. I have seen many people write about how rough lumber is when it comes off of a CSM, but I do not agree. It all depends on the way the chain is filed. The biggest drawbacks to a CSM is speed and kerf. I wouldn't want to try to make a living milling with one, but I don't and my wood is free so the drawbacks don't matter to me. What I'm saying is buy what suits your needs best.
TJB
Plickety: won't Skype work on your computer and network? Or is two way but not connected? Seems like I remember "dish plus" but I'm too tired to search for it- fingers are worn out from too much computering... From personal experience, I've even used it with the laptop on-board mike and speakers; looks real funny holding it up like a giant cellphone, but Skype is free and calling almost or totally free, depending on who you're calling and whether they have Skype also. My daughter uses it to take bagpipe lessons from her teacher in Canada- talks/plays/listens for an hour for almost nothing.
Well, which ever way you go, band or chainsaw, you're in for some of the most fun you can have: definition of fun- "productive hard work." On and some of the hardest work you'll find also, otherwise it wouldn't be productive nor fun...
Lj
Thanks for the vote of confidence TJB :)
Lj - Skype-to-skype works fairly well up here over the satellite. Skype-to-phone or MajickJack type VoIP applications, not so much... it works, but there is a serious lag and you have to use radio protocols like "over" and "copy" when you're talking, which can get really annoying on a long call or with someone not used to it ;)
Hard Productive Work = Fun in my book. If it didn't, I sure picked wrongly when I decided to homestead in the bush on a shoe-string budget LOL
Take a look at my homemade sled
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/349/sled.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/349/sled2.JPG)
Its light enough to pull into the bush by hand. After its loaded with lumber, firewood, etc. I hook 400 feet of 1/4 inch cable to it and walk back to the truck. It tipped a few times but mostly it just flies out like magic 8) 8) I run the cable through a snatchblock on a tree beside the road so the truck can go down the road as the sled comes perpendicular to it.
The pics show me using an old snowmobile but I would advise against them, they are more trouble than they are worth unless you travel in a group.
Rock On Sprucegum - that sled is cool. I've been trawling the Manley Wal-Mart (a.k.a. the dump) and have found some burned out snowmachines that I could scavenge the skis from and a big piece of metal roofing that looks like it may have been a camper at one point. I think I could probably rig myself up a fairly decent sled, even without a welder (yes, that's another thing on Santa's list). One of my neighbors uses a big plastic toboggin for his firewood, which I think is hilarious (although crafty) since it flies about 2 feet in the air whenever he hits a bump and he has to use a mesh web to keep the wood inside. I might drag one tree behind a snowmachine, but probably not a full sled either.
Yer on the right track - the key features are wide-apart skis for stability and a wide V-shaped handle. The handle is fastened to the far outside edges and helps the sled brush past trees.
Wasn't the Petersen Skill Mill, electric?
Some random observations for you ...
I sawed timbers for myself for 22 years with an Alaskan mill before upgrading. I had a 30" mill and a 70 cc Jonsereds. Most of my wood was Douglas-Fir, WRC, and white pine. When I decided to upgrade, I had a good look at the Logosol M7. The only reason I decided against it was because I was planning to start a part-time sawing business. Here's some observations for you ...
My CS lumber had a better finish then I've ever seen come off a band mill. There's a few tricks to that: chain filed straight across (or almost so) instead of at 30 degrees; uniform cutting speed; counterweight to balance the saw head so you don't have to push down on the mill; and kerf wedges! Little hardwood wedges. 1" x 2" tapered for half their length, and 1/32" thicker than your cut. Paint 'em red so you don't lose them in the sawdust. Drive a pair in every 4 to 6 feet, one on each side. They keep the kerf open so the returning chain doesn't chew up the product. Some folks don't believe me when I tell them about the finish, but I've got an 8" wide by 6' long piece of birch veneer in the basement that measures 0.020" thick -- cut with the Alaskan mill (there's a little ol' secret to this ;D ;D).
A lot of the time I'd lift the log onto a pair of horses with my tractor, and that was a heck of a lot easier than trying to saw at ground level. That was one factor that had me looking at the Logosol.
70 CC's was underpowered. The bigger the sawhead, the faster you cut. But you have to trade that off against the weight you have to shift around in the bush.
Ease of use: There's a guy just outside town who lost an arm at the shoulder 30 years ago. He uses an M7 for making timbers for his own use.
I didn't buy a chain grinder the whole time I had the CSM. I've got one now and I'm kicking myself for not buying one way back then. I've seen a few that run off 12 volts for field use. Nice thing about them is you can experiment a little with tooth angle -- it can make a real difference in cutting speed.
A couple of years ago my customer's log yard got severely snowed in and the FEL was only available for half an hour -- just enough to skim out a road to the logs. I was pulling them out and skidding them on the snow to the mill with a 2WD pickup (with about 400 lbs of weight at the back of the box). No winch -- just a choker from the hitch ball to the log.
I've got a hydraulic band mill now, and it is way, way faster than the CSM. But I'm running a full time business with it. Given the description from your first post, I figure you're doing exactly what I would do under the same circumstances.
Thanks Brucer for your honest insight. When I tried out that Alaskan, I didn't have any control over what blade was on the saw and I think that may have been the issue (plus it was a Husky 445 -- under-powered at best). I read Will Malloff's "Chainsaw Lumbermaking" and the only thing that really scares me about the Alaskan is all the myriad steps he showed just setting up for the "perfect cut" and all the little gadgets and mods he kept making. But, the lumber did look *danG fine.
I was figuring with the M7 that it would simplify the process a little. Of course, if the average Joe (or Jane in my case) can get away sawing beautiful lumber with an Alaskan or Logosol Big Mill (just lagging guides to the log) without all the tricky math and modifications, then I'm certainly not opposed to an even less expensive mill. It's not that I can't do any of those things, just that it could be a tedious process to go through every time with smaller logs.
Do definitely need a chain grinder. I've come to this conclusion just hand sharpening my firewood chains... hours and hours of filing can get old really fast ;) And we're getting a larger saw anyway, since we're maxing out our current one on the larger trees just bucking firewood (ok - frozen firewood might be the real problem).
I'll give my two cents worth- I built a post and beam style cabin up here in AK using a rip saw like deadheader was referring too. I would fall a tree with my stihl 036, perfect saw for interior alaska size timber and perfect for the ripsaw, then attach the saw to the mill and go to town. The guide beam system for this is pretty slick too, no nails or boards. Its compact, light, and works well. The smaller tooth size makes for dang near planed wood too with miniscule kerf. Also, this tool is awesome for making tongue and fork or half lap joints or quickly resawing timbers later when buildingjavascript:void(0);. I like it alot especially if you dont have a central area where you are staging logs. Also, I have a portable capstan winch and skidding cone from nova jack. So handy for what you are planning to do. Use it to yard up logs in multiple locations or skid em to your site, Then use it to set ridge beams, etc. Put a want add on Craigslist too, I saw a rip saw for 500 bucks not to long ago and I recently got a nearly new 2004 lt 15 for an undisclosed steal of a price. This is my third mill and they keep getting better, oh to have some hydraulics, one day.... Have fun and good luck, no matter what you get sawdust will be made.
Thanks BeetleKill - good to get another Alaskan on here who knows what I'm talking about with the trees up here ;) I'll look into the other goodies and get on CraigsList again.
Hi cat I cant figure how it is any easyer to get a two sided 14 inch
16 to 20 feet long log plus side lumber back to the home site than
it would be just to get a round log of the same length it would be the
same trails same distance but one heck of alot less work and trips.
If you had a small mill you could cut timbers ,demention,lumber as
you need it. all your waste/fire wood would be there and you could
saw for future out buldings.
You said that a small delay wastn't a probelm you can yard and stage
your logs this winter while it's frozen saw and build this spring.
best of luck to you anyway you go.
Petersons have a live chat on ther web site ,it will save you going to town te site iswww,petersonsawmills.com now in NewZealand it is wednesdayaround noon .If you go on there site an click on contact it will tell you the time in New Zealand good luck
Hello CSM owners and Plickety was wondering with using a csm how often you have to refuel a 66cc saw or larger . That would be a consideration of mine. I may be one of the most frugal FF member so 5 gallons of gas and gallon of bar oil are like gold to me. Plus all the chain filing and extra chains and spare bar. I think the ripsaw sounds like a better option. the money you save on a smaller saw can go towards the mill. I don't know enough about the ripsaw to recommend it but I have sawed with a CSM when I first wanted to mill lumber. It was time consuming and worrying about the wear I was going to put on $1,000 saw didn't have good memories. I sawed up one large poplar about 30" diameter and never used that kind of mill again. For an occasional use maybe. small projects with no other choice than a hand rip saw definitely.I can't imagine all day to cut and mill lumber for building. running a saw for a day to fell trees and cut firewood is enough. IMO good luck with what ever you choose.
If I was just squaring logs into posts and beams, it probably wouldn't save much work. But planks and dimensional would be much lighter to carry out, even if I had to make more trips. Doing it manual, without any toys, it's not possible to haul out a 500 lb tree by yourself... but you easily carry 10 loads of 50lbs ;) But we're trying to sled these babies out with some sort of vehicle to a central location while we still have snow on the ground because that would be easier all around.
I'll check out the live chat.
I didn't find any hard data on gas consumption in any of my research. Lots of references to "similar fuel rates" for the different saws, but that wasn't compared against the BF. Logically, you'd think that MPG would be related to HP... so more HP = less MPG regardless of what engine you're running. With that logic, assuming that the M7 & the LT10 have similar BF/hr, then the LT10 would probably burn just a little more because it's slightly higher HP... but I don't have any real numbers.
Plickety, In talking to you I've found you have a keen analytical mind, I think you are on the right track...I don't know about the M7 specifically, but have messed with CSM...I sawed with an MS-660..7hp chainsaw...big bugger uses alot of fuel for the return, 12" log and say ten feet long, cut through and through was at least a tank and a half...in pine...consider hauling more fuel in...for the log size you are talking about an MS-440 SHOULD be sufficient...660 is better..but unless you are cutting big hardwood, the 880 is like swatting a fly with a buick..
The water cooling on a BSM is not much itch in the cold...gallon of windshield deicer fluid and little pine-sol to cut the pitch...you don't have to run water constantly, just every so often to cut the pitch or cool the blade in heavy cuts...I went through a gallon in a 29" pine trunk 14' long the other day...
you guys are on this stick to make it work, and know your resources, where I don;t necessarily... I would personally be after a swinger...with an eye towards sawing on shares once the buildings and fences were up...the CSM likely won't produce enough per hour, day, whatever to saw for trade...but that's me, you may not want to be in the sawing business....
one other point to consider...swinger blades while more expensive are quicker to sharpen and can be re tipped..
Something I am not sure of though, that skill mill would cut all sorts of neat profiles and angles....will the other swing mills do that sort of thing?
It might be that once others find out that you have a mill, they will need some lumber cut. A small portable bandmill might pay for itself and in the same time, allow you to cut what you need and also cut wood for others on the side, and be a good financial investment.
Sawmills are like magnets that draw others in. However, you may be too remote for that possibility. In any event, be sure to think ahead of what you might think that you only need now, and plan ahead. That is a lesson learned by many.
Seems a four stroke engine (such as on most bandmills) would use a lot less fuel than a two stroke engine (most chainsaws) of the same horsepower.
Besides.......
Heck with all that oil in Alaska Plickitycat is not worried about that ;)
Also, a being a southern boy, I would think that a frozen log wouldn't need much lubrication to cool a band saw blade. Heck, wouldn't the ice do the job? Someone will set me straight. Its probably like the airblower I use for fish tanks, the air friction produces an incredible amount of heat. I have actually melted and blown out schedule 80 pipes. 340 cfm is alot ;D
My apologies for getting off topic.
Hi, I have a homemade sawmill using a bar and chain and a 16 hp lawn tractor engine it seems to be a bit faster than most of the CSM's I have seen on the net, I'm guessing the cutting speed is around the same as a 10 hp bandsaw so it is not real fast and YES it makes a 1/4" kerf and uses chain oil and wears out a bar or nose sprocket after a while, burns gas and NO the lumber you cut is not "free", it is not easy work and can be very frustrating when something is not working right (you can be dang sure that will happen with any mill you choose just like any other piece of equipment) but here is the thing that made me go the route I did,
I was origionally thinking of making a band saw. (this was 12 years ago did not have internet just a few brouchures and had seen a few band mills) I got looking at the cost of bands and seeing the pile of rusty broken ones next to the mills I looked at and thinking those are $20 to $25 each!, then I got a price on the sharpening and setting equipment $2500.00, so for the cost of a bar and 2 chains (under $200) I changed my plans and went with bar and chain and built the mill for $2500.00 using mostly new steel and parts (paid $500 for used lawn tractor for engine $2000.00 for the rest) I milled out all of my timbers for my part timber frame house and as much again with those two chains and spent $10 on files. I used a clamp on file guide for 4 or 5 years then broke down and bought a half decent grinder. I have bought 2 more chains since but could still get another 3-4 sharpenings out of the first ones.
What I am getting at in a long round about way is IF time is not a big factor, and shipping is a pain in the ___ and expensive, I'm thinking I would go with some type of csm setup for a mill with a portable winch, get a extra bar or two, spare nose sprocket, chain repair links & hand held chain repair tools (I have never broke a chain yet, .404 chain, but were your so far off the beaten path it may be worth it) and the rest of the regular chainsaw stuff, taking care not to over heat the saw it should last quite a while.
Which ever way you folkes go with this I wish you luck and admire your ambition and resolve to follow your dreams.
Cheers from Nova Scotia.
oh..get the chainsaw tuned slightly rich on top end...snot as hard on 'em that way..
Good point about fuel efficiency on 4-stroke vs. 2-stroke. I'll keep it in mind. But hey, once I'm set up I'll be brewing my own ethanol so who cares about fuel efficiency LOL (yes, yes, I've heard the horror stories about ethanol -- it works just fine in my climate because it's soooo arid and cold)
There are maybe 200 people/families living within a 2-hour radius of me in any direction, even less in the winter. I doubt there's much need for another portable sawyer in the area (there's one in the village down the road, he charges waaaaay too much but would not take kindly to competition). Superfluous anyway as we'd rather make extra cash selling our farm goods than hiring out our services and back muscles. We might help out a neighbor with a new build or something once every few years, but that would be more for community than profit. (yes, I'm one of those sick people who aren't motivated by profit).
Getting stuff here is a major PITA and can get expensive. During the worst of winter, you have to rely on the mail plane to get you stuff, and even then he might not come if the weather is bad, and there is a size/weight limit in his plane unless you contract out special with another bush outfit ($$$). So much easier to drive 4 hours into F'Banks one day in the summer and pick up a wahootey-load of parts and other consumables -- either at a store/dealer or a big box that UPS holds at the depot since they don't deliver out here.
Quote from: PlicketyCat on December 15, 2009, 02:38:36 AM
... I read Will Malloff's "Chainsaw Lumbermaking" and the only thing that really scares me about the Alaskan is all the myriad steps he showed just setting up for the "perfect cut" and all the little gadgets and mods he kept making. But, the lumber did look *danG fine.
I used a Granberg mini-mill for a couple of years and then discovered Will Malloff's book. That was pretty much what got me switched to the Alaskan mill. I did pretty much everything Will did, except that I improved on a few things. The set up looks complicated but it got pretty quick after some practice. Unfortunately, you end up with so much "stuff" to cart around that you're making twice as many trips to get everything to the log.
For a big log on the ground, his winch system was great. When I had smaller logs up on horses, I just pushed the saw and ate the fumes.
That's a good reference book to have on hand if you go with the M7. You'll probably find yourself adapting some of his ideas.
Quote from: zopi on December 15, 2009, 10:31:21 PM
oh..get the chainsaw tuned slightly rich on top end...snot as hard on 'em that way..
That's for sure. Will mentions that in his book as well. Just a touch rich, though, it doesn't take much.
Brucer - one thing that I did think was great about Will's method with the Alaskan was that he blocked the base and adjusted the the guide spacers on either end to take into account the log's taper... he tried to keep the heart level all the way down. With most of the mills I've seen, it looks like you just plop the log on the deck and start making cuts. The bottom is level so the top could be steeply angled on a tapered log... meaning the heart would be angled downward as well. I imagine towards the center of the log, you'd start cutting "ovals" out of the heart because the blade is not in a level plane with it. Does that even matter?
It matters alright...If the heart is level your lumber will be both stronger and more attractive..in extreme cases the angle would be great enough to cut through the grain all the way across the board..weakening it in shear and compression both..
PlicketyCat
I was wondering if you looked at the Norwood portamill (Norwood link at left of page) it looks like a good idea for using a chainsaw may be someone on here has experience with it and can comment.
Cheers
Quote from: zopi on December 16, 2009, 07:51:07 AM
It matters alright...If the heart is level your lumber will be both stronger and more attractive..in extreme cases the angle would be great enough to cut through the grain all the way across the board..weakening it in shear and compression both..
That's what I figured. Guess I've been looking at cupped, bowed, waney, twisted, knotty, poorly cut board from Blowes and Home Labyrinth too long to remember what good lumber supposed to look like! :D
Quote from: Hilltop366 on December 16, 2009, 01:17:35 PM
PlicketyCat
I was wondering if you looked at the Norwood portamill (Norwood link at left of page) it looks like a good idea for using a chainsaw may be someone on here has experience with it and can comment.
Cheers
I did check it out. Pretty nifty use of an extension ladder as the tracks (big for me because I hate stuff that only does one thing). It's a little spendier for what you get than the Alaskan or the Big Mill, but it does have the built-in easy measurements and the guide head so you're not down sucking exhaust and sawdust. The only real drawback that I saw is that it's maximum width is at the low end of our average good house logs, so we might end up with good logs we can't mill. It's also set up to mill dimensional lumber 1" & 2" x up to 8". We need something that can square beams (up to 12 x 12), make planks, and possibly slabs for countertops & tables, I'm not sure if this would be the right mill for us since we've got limited dimensional in any of our building plans.
The dimension material at the box stores is after many have sorted out the high grade material, and used it in higher value products, such as structural beams, trusses, and the like.
Along the way, what is left ends up as a product that does sell at the box stores. People buy it, as it is cheap. And they complain about it too. ;D ;D But it is still cheap. :)
When you log and saw your own trees, that high grade material will be yours to keep.
Ain't it the truth? And then you spend hours picking through the leavings trying to find the best of the worst -- like separating fly speck from the pepper! I even went to our lumberyard and tried to get higher grade for our sills (at least!) on the tent platform... no go, seems they reserve the good stuff for the "professionals" ::)
I can't wait to have "total control" over the quality of my building materials. I'm pretty sure a board from even the most bent and gnarly tree on my lot, that I milled drunk in the dark, would yield better lumber than some of the crap I had to pick through for our platform joists -- just can't find decent 2x6's with all 4 edges anymore! If they have all the edges, then they've got a huge know right on the edge or the crown is spliit >:(
I've had a logosol M5/066 combo for 10 years now, never had a problem with either.
Smooth accurate cuts but not high production. If you are doing TF building an advantage is you can add a 1/2 or full mill to it and cut beams as log as you need. They have bolted a bunch together and milled whole trees into long boards/beams (100ft +).
A single mill can be carried into the woods by one person, but it's much easier with a helper.
It will also mill shorts and odd shaped wood that other mills can't.
Thanks Professor - it's good to hear that others ahve used similar combos with success. It's likely that both of us will be carrying things in and getting set up, then one of us mills while the other goes off to drop the next tree or prep the next log. We'll definitely need the ability to saw long logs, since many of the timbers in our cabin will need to be 14'+ and I'd rather not scarf them if I can help it!
How are you going to move the milled cabin logs out to your site? They are still going to be plenty heavy to move by hand.
Stonebroke
We're going to haul the big house logs out this winter (hopefully) with the truck (or ATV) & winch while there is still snow on the ground. Those we'll have in a central location (hopefully the home site if we decide on one soon) to mill. We can get into the forest with the truck a lot easier in the winter than in summer without having to clear as much trail... at least close enough to play out the winch cable. But the logs we're milling for planks, and the small amount of dimensional we'll need, we'll probably just mill where it falls because it's easier to carry out a few boards at a time (in several trips) than it is to get the whole tree out at once in the winter or summer. Most of the house logs would need to be 14" dbh or less, so those are easier to winch out and drag. Our trees up here are tall with minimal taper, but not very girthy, so we can get a good long 12x12 beam out of 14" log. We do have a few bigger trees (20-36" dbh) that we'll be milling for planks as it's more bang for the buck (pun intended ;)) and they're just too darn big to transport without heavy machinery.
You will only get at best a 9"x 9" beam out of a 14" log.
Quote from: LeeB on December 18, 2009, 06:29:28 PM
You will only get at best a 9"x 9" beam out of a 14" log.
Right right - most of my beams are 8's & 9's so I got 14"d stuck in my head. For the handful of 12x12's we need 18"d logs or a smidge higher for those, especially since they are some of the few fully square timbers in the layout (most are only flat on one or two faces and live on the others)
Quote from: PlicketyCat on December 16, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
Brucer - one thing that I did think was great about Will's method with the Alaskan was that he blocked the base and adjusted the the guide spacers on either end to take into account the log's taper... he tried to keep the heart level all the way down. With most of the mills I've seen, it looks like you just plop the log on the deck and start making cuts. The bottom is level so the top could be steeply angled on a tapered log... meaning the heart would be angled downward as well. I imagine towards the center of the log, you'd start cutting "ovals" out of the heart because the blade is not in a level plane with it. Does that even matter?
Although I haven't bothered to do it in my little foray into CSM I thought all the "info" and videos I looked at showed that one should have a long straight piece of tree, carefully mark the center at both ends, measure up your boards and kerf from the center. Then make the first cut so you had a wide piece at the butt and a narrow piece at the far end as your first cant. This sets up so you progress toward the center.
First I need to find a long straight piece of tree :)
Yes, the "rules" say you should do all those things and make your cuts level with the heartwood and measure from the center from both ends, etc etc... but how many people actually do it, or even read the rules? LOL All the demo videos show it real simple like because they use a straight tree with minimal taper to begin with. That's what I liked about Will's book, he goes into all sorts of ways to deal with crookedy bent trees (including using the the way they are!)
Quote from: gemniii on December 18, 2009, 08:23:31 PMFirst I need to find a long straight piece of tree :)
Luckily, we don't have too much of problem with that up here... trees tend to grow straight up with few limbs and minimal taper... guess that's what happens when it takes 100 years to get 9"d ;)
Quote from: PlicketyCat on December 16, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
Brucer - one thing that I did think was great about Will's method with the Alaskan was that he blocked the base and adjusted the the guide spacers on either end to take into account the log's taper... he tried to keep the heart level all the way down. With most of the mills I've seen, it looks like you just plop the log on the deck and start making cuts. The bottom is level so the top could be steeply angled on a tapered log... meaning the heart would be angled downward as well. I imagine towards the center of the log, you'd start cutting "ovals" out of the heart because the blade is not in a level plane with it. Does that even matter?
I do a similar thing with my logosol.
You can lift either log support independent of the other to get a centered cant. First take a square to mark out the Beam (centered) you are cutting out on each end of the log. The first slab comes off then cut for grade until you get to your cant size. I get a fair amount of nice 4/4 and 5/4 before I get down to the cant.
Another thing besides centering the cant is to only use the straightest logs for beams. Wavy logs will check a lot as the pith moves back and forth from/close too the surface and will also be weaker. Use these for sills and save the better for posts/beams.
If the snow don't get too deep I've got some logs to mill soon, cherry for grade and ash for grade/beams , and will try to post some pictures
Thanks Professor - I'd love to see some pics of the end product from your Logosol. I was wondering if the two jacks on the M7 could be set independentally to adjust for taper, good to know. I'll try to keep any wany, check-prone wood to the porch and not the main house if I can help it... I'm not too keen on weak sills since we'll be raised up 2-4 feet on post & pier to stay above the snow and not thaw the permafrost. If we were on grade or a stem wall, I'd feel a little more confident using less than "perfect"... but I've seen too many cabins sagging on rotted or cracked sills up here. Once the snow gets into a bad check, the thaw-freeze cycle will split it right open like a nut shell in a couple of years.
The noreaster this weekend went south so I've got perfect skidding weather now with about 3-5" of crusty snow. Will try to get some pics of the mill/product if time permits. Still have a deer tag to fill.......and first ice fishing of the season today.........
And yes you can adjust the log supports independently, can even mill a ramp/angle if you want to. The M5 was 1/4" increments, not sure what the M7 has.
I've replicated what the logosol video depicts, cut a 1/4" ca. 8ft cut (veneer) and bend it around into a circle.
Good to know that it makes decent veneers. Since our house is round all the fascia, etc would need to be curved. Wasn't looking forward to cutting them curved or steam bending... glue lam is sooooooo much easier and predictable!
I have a Logosol M7 and use the 385 husky with it. It will do every thing that Logosol says it will do. But I do think the 395 would be a better saw. Not for the size so much as the way it is built. Most of us that have the 385 have had to shim up where the saw fits onto the sled. Other than that, I have four bars for mine.16", 20", 24"and 36" with a sprocket for each bar. Most of the time I run the 16".
I think it cuts better lumber than the bandsaw (I also have a 1220 TimberKing). The Logosol cuts a log up to 17' the way it comes, the bandsaw cuts 12'. I can use the saw for other things if I need to. Like cut up that 100 year old Oak that came down on my well shed in a storm last year. I can take the guide bar off and put it on a jig to quarter cut any log that is too big for the M7. Stuff like that.
The mill doesn't rust but you do have to watch the bolts don't loosen up on you.It is loud and it takes more gas and oil than a bandsaw. But it really doesn't cut all that much slower the the bandsaw. Either one will do more than I want to in a day.
Good luck which ever you chose. Hope tis helps..
Rodney
Thanks Rodney, good to hear from someone else who uses both types.
Quote from: Rodney SinclairEither one will do more than I want to in a day.
Exactly! ;D
I watched the logosol video and it seems that anyplace that you would be able to carry that frame into... you would also be able to get a logging arch into with your ATV to cart the logs out. Especially if the log is bucked to the length that you need.
I have sawed enough timber to build my cabin and 4 large sheds over the past two years and I'm sure glad that I did not have to move the saw to the trees. You should try to make an accurate estimate of how much lumber you are going to need. I think you will be surprised. I sure was.
I don't know anything about working on permafrost but mounting an LT 15 on a post type frame should work OK.
I read in one of your posts that you thought that the BF production of the logosol and a WM LT10 would be about the same. Maybe it is. But I can assure you that my LT15 will double or tripple that production. I paid $4500 for my used but excellent LT15 and that came with five 2' mounting stands, extentions so that I can cut 20' logs and many other extras. So good buys are out there. I don't envy you doing this kind of work without a tractor but I do know it can be done and I admire your grit.
You also remarked about not being able to use cutting fluid in the freezing conditions. I usually only use cutting fluid when sawing pine but I'll bet that someone here has an answer for that problem.
Hi Qweaver, I did find a few good deals on various larger mills... none of them in AK though :( The shipping alone negates the savings. The only BSM "deal" I found up here is a homemade one of questionable integrity.
I was flipping through an old copy of Fine Woodworking magazine from the 70's the other day... ironically, the Chainsaw Milling edition... and came across this ad
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20792/FineWoodworkingVol8-Pg5.jpg)
Is it all just co-inky-dink?
Blade lube isn't always necessary...I've become ever more sparing of it,,'cept in pine..and dry hardwood..
As it gets cold, add windshield washer fluid...as it gets really cold..use straight windshield
washer fluid..when that freezes...go in the house and pul the jug after you...then, next spring build a sawshed with a big honkin barrel stove to burn slabs in...being cold sucks.
I have a Logosol M7 and have cut 5,000/10,000 bdf on it. There is no way that it will come close to what you can cut with a bandsaw mill. It is a great mill for a hobbyist but in my opinion you would starve before you could support yourself cutting lumber for resale. You must sharpen tyour chains without removing them from the saw. It takes too long to remove the chain and reassemble saw. I use a dremel tool to resharpen my chains. Also a file will work great but if you plan on removing chain to resharpen it is a great waste of time and work.
In Alaska I imagine I would love to have a Logosol. I read that someone suggested you use a wheeled device to lift the log and carry it to the mill. This is a good idea. I have moved my mill to the log a few times but you will need a level spot to set the mill before loading the log on to it. Not necessarily level but all legs must be supporting the weight.
Put some thought into it.
I've spent a good part of last year using a Logosol M7 to mill the framing lumber for my retirement house. Would I do it again ? Maybe, or maybe if the lumber prices were as depressed as they have been, I might just buy the lumber ;) (I bought the M7 a few years earlier, however, when lumber was higher). It was a rewarding experience, however, and gave me something to keep me busy in my retirement.
I did get a fairly good deal on the mill and saw (Husky 395), I think about $2500 for both. However, if I never mill another log, they have paid for themselves several times over, and I still have a hefty saw that I can use for firewood.
I have a one man operation. Used an ATV and homemade logging arch to bring the logs to the mill, and a homemade winch stand to load the logs on the mill.
If I were going to have milled 1x's, however, I most definitely would have considered going the expense of a band mill, or at least a used band mill. It's just too much cutting, in my opinion, to be making very many boards with a chainsaw.
But when I consider all of the work that was involved, the actual cutting was not really that big a portion of the time. But boy, that 395 sure is loud and makes a humongous amount of sawdust. I would mill a 3 or 4 logs and then have 6 to 10 wheelbarrows of sawdust to cart off.
Bottom line:
If you have a project to do that involves mostly beams and/or framing lumber, the M7 is a relatively inexpensive route compared to a band mill.
But if you're going to be making a lot of 1x's or going to be milling for a long time or trying to make money with it, go the band mill route.
Thanks for sharing your experience with the M7 Jimbob
Quote from: Jimbob on December 28, 2009, 10:15:20 PM
Bottom line:
If you have a project to do that involves mostly beams and/or framing lumber, the M7 is a relatively inexpensive route compared to a band mill.
But if you're going to be making a lot of 1x's or going to be milling for a long time or trying to make money with it, go the band mill route.
I totally agree, if you're looking to do a lot of dimensional or thinner "finish" lumber then the BSM is probably much better than the CSM. Fortunately, our project is 70% posts and beams, 20% 2" thick floor/ceiling planks, with the remaining 10% dimensional lumber for interior framing, trim, molding, cabinets, etc. On the other buildings we'll eventually build, there's probably going to be even less dimensional & thinner "finish" lumber required.
FWIW... Moved to Oregon from the Great Land several years ago, in prior years, had experience with circle mills, BSM and had used a beam machine to rough cants from spruce logs. When we ended up on our tree farm here, needed to log, then wanted to mill a little on the side for own use, bought a 372xpw w/28" bar, and 2 ripping chains, did the logging,
then milled about 600BF with the Alaskan Mill II that I bought when I purchased the saw...Wow was I suprised at how nice the boards turned out! Kept the chain sharp, used mu felling wedges to keep the kerf open, and the boards turned out as bood as or bettern than anything i have seen come off a BSM, albeit ALOT slower. For the money, a CSM in your circumstance makes alot of sense to me. If I get into a need for more volume milling, will either track down a used skill mill, or build an electric powered swing blade, for now the CSM does the job, for what I need it to do. I liked cruising the local walmarts in AK, always found lots of good stuff. Especially in the more out of the way places, like Kotz.
Quote from: mad murdock on December 29, 2009, 01:05:09 AM
I liked cruising the local walmarts in AK, always found lots of good stuff. Especially in the more out of the way places, like Kotz.
I just found an old ford flat bed that's been chopped off at our "wally-world"... thinking I might be able to rig that up with a square tongue to help haul with the ATV. I still have to make my log sled out of those old snowmachine skis. Too bad my welding torch is in storage up in Fairbanks :(
The real Wal-Marts up here are probably the only place in the US where they stock the bear repellant right next to the pet supplies and tarps in the home section LOL!
I can't wait to get into Fairbanks and spend an afternoon at AIH (Alaska Industrial Hardware) now that I know what sort of things I'm looking for here at the 'Stead. I know they have the Granbergs and the Beam Machine... but I'll have to see if they have the Logosols, or any of the others, since they weren't listed as distributors on the Logosol site (in fact there were no dealers in AK listed, hoping that's an oversight -- Alaska, the forgotten planet ROFL).
I'm starting to lean back more towards the Alaskan III again... with the money I save, I can get the uber-Stihl or Husky and still have some left over for other log handling gear that we desperately need.
I think if I were in your shoes I would definitely log arc/sled your logs home to the mill like mentioned above.
I've had all 3- granberg, woodbug, and now LT40 HD. What becomes a real pain and soon learned is bringing the mill to the logs. You're commited. You always have to move the mill around on site, then you always have to move logs, lumber, and you're always on a dealine of some sort- getting things set up in time, getting stuff moved out in time, etc.,
Then when you're out in the field and something breaks your murphy'd.
I thought moving a light mill to the logs was going to be the ticket, and soon found out it was not. Even with the CSM it was much more convenient and easier to bring logs home. You can work at your pace, and just walk away when done and not worry about it. The logs can sit and wait.
The other huge conisderation are the mill slabs- excellent fire wood easily bucked up. When you're out in the field the last thing you want to do is haul slabs at the end of the day. What a waste of good hot burning firewood.
If it were me I would start hauling logs in, anyway you can and start your log deck, then when you get a mill you can go to work.
As stated before, cutting anything but beams with a CSM wastes a lot of wood, and is a lot of work. Moving up to a bandsaw mill was a huge eye opener, and increase in productivity, and less work not because of the LT40 necessarily, but the band blade kerf. When I milled up my first log and looked at the pile of lumber I got out of it, my jaw dropped.
I would look at the bandmills, that are on tracks like the L-15's etc., and wait til' I could afford one of those mills, and park it at the house.
Hi JP, yes, I think we are going to start sledding the trees out before the snow melts. I think the only way we'd normally go to the tree is if it was really honkin' huge and we couldn't move it or it was in a strange area that we couldn't get at to haul it out. All the rest we're going to sled or arch out if we can. That way we can set up an assembly line of sorts, which always seems to go faster. And you're right, firewood is a terrible thing to waste (esp. since we have 6 mos of winter up here :))
I think we'll get the CSM to start since we can afford it and we need to get started on the house and can't wait to be able to afford the BSM. Then, when we can afford something bigger/faster, we can evaluate our needs even better since we'll have first-hand experience of our trees, projects and working style ;) In the meantime, we can slowly labor through squaring beams for the house framing... that's 70+% of the project right there, maybe we'll even be able to afford something else before we need to cut planks/boards and dimensional lumber.
Did you see this unit, i found it on e-bay
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360226850681&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123
Thanks for the heads-up Stephen, that's a cool little mill. I contacted the seller, and shipping up here would more than double the cost -- YIKES! Since some of our timber will actually be bigger than 16", I think something this small may get us into trouble in some spots LOL!
I had the opportunity to test drive an Alaskan with the next-to-biggest Husky and a low-kerf ripping blade on spruce logs at a dealer the other day when I was in Fairbanks. Wow! The cut was very clean and I planked out a 28" dbh 10' log in about 30 minutes (including first slab set up!). Not too shabby for what we're planning to do :)
So!!! Whats the Answer? Did you take it home with you? ;)
The one they had was a demo model, but they should be getting some more in stock this spring so I'm on the list and they'll let me know when the shipment comes in so I can drive into Fairbanks and pick it up. If I'd "bought it" that day, then it would have been a "special order" and I would have been charged all the freight... too much $$$. That's one thing I love about some of the stores and salesmen up here, they really do try to help you save money and get the right things (even if store policy is a little "greedy")... I even had one guy get me a discount on lumber and insulation by swearing to the checkout clerk that I was his girlfriend so I'd get his employee discount LOL.