Every mill manufacturer makes claims of what can be sawed in an hour on their mills, I am curious
as to what numbers you guys actually rack up...There are alot of variables involved, # of helpers,
hardwood or softwood, edger use, product produced etc...considering setup, what mills are you guys driving and what can you saw an hour?
I usually work alone, with an LT-15G, and I am slow as January sap...but I can exceed the 125/hr claim if I am busting my hump, especially now that I have a dead deck I can load a half dozen logs onto before I get started..but I usually go around 85-90 an hour.
I wonder if I could break three hundred with an offbearer and someone to keep the logs rolling onto the deck...
Some of you guys have gone from the regular hydraulic mills to the supers...are the supers really that much faster?
I went from an LT-40G24 to an LT-40HDD51 Wireless remote. My best footage is still with the manual mill, however I had a hydraulic log deck, and good logs. All things considered, I can produce more in a day with the Super. I'm still beat, but not as beat as I would have been on the manual. If I had an off bearer, it would make a huge difference.
Zopi,
My feeling is they get their numbers by finding a pile of straight, and clean debarked sticks and have a person run a loader to keep the deck full, while a crew of two deals with the slabs and boards. If I only had to push my saw up and down the tracks, I would be a production king too!
But like you, I am the loader, the sawyer, the off bearer and the stacker. That pile of boards I can make fairly quick takes alot longer to sticker stack and put under tin, and that doesn't include dealing with the slabs, sawdust and loading the deck.
THere is a nice comparison article in "Sawmills and Woodlot" where they go in depth on the different mills at some competition. Had some handy tips for upping production regardless of type too boot.
Dave
I went from using a LT40HD25G to a LT40HD25E super back in 2006. I am still suprised each day how much faster the new mill is over the old one. All that being said, with one other person, if we can cut and stack 1000bf/day everyday you dont need anyone to rock you to sleep at night. Sawing logs is way too easy. Stacking boards, cleaning up sawdust, slabs, etc... is where all the hard part is.
Cypress Man
if you're busting a hump, you can roll pretty quick sawing 2x6's of 2x8's out of 12-16" logs that are 10' long.
On average, I probably get 200-250 bf/hour, counting lunch and breaks.
The fastest i've sawn is 2350(scaled international) bf of fence and barn material from good poplar logs in 7 hours, which is about 335 bf/hr. I didn't stop for lunch that day, and only took a few short breaks.
BDFT/hour is just a comparision or sales pitch from the people that sells mills. I have had days were I was lucky to saw 100 ft/hr and other days I have done 250. Think about it if the bdft/hr factor x 25 cents a bdft = profit what would be the selling point of the mill. I would rather saw 100 feet of good saleable lumber than 300 feet of crap that I was ashambed of, "It is what it is". I think if you focas on sawing good lumber that is uniform in thickness and width you will have all bd/ft comming off the mill useful, but if you focas on speed of bd/ft comming off the mill you might end up with a whole lot of campfire wood :D Just my 2 cents
Sam
Hello, I do not know much about big mills but my little Belsaw can saw 250bf and up per hour. I saw by myself and edge all of the edging boards at a later date on a 802 Belsaw edger. I saw most all 4/4 and MY logs range from 8 to 12 feet long and from 12" to 22" in diameter and are nice logs. GT
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20207/2492/DSCF1866.JPG)
Yep, there are a lot of other things to keep us all busy. That is why I have a handy all terrain forklift to do the material handling, move log, scrap wood and the final stack.
The common description of speed is how many board feet an hour can be cut of 1" thick boards. In that vain I typically run about 300. However, another is to look at the saw feed speed, mine ranges between 30-60 fpm, where 30 is for 12" or larger and 60 is for 6" and smaller. I would rather run at 30 because it gives me 1/2 minute to keep caught up.
I mostly cut softwood. I would love to cut more hardwood; I find it tends to be easier to cut than Douglas Fir (my main product).
GT..that is a neat looking mill..MY wife and I were talking about cleaning up the flitch boards after the sawing is done earlier this evening...we are bot allergic to putting boards back on the mill. ;D
Dan, that must've been one aching back sleep-in-the-next-day tired....
One of the things that slows me down is the back and knees...years of walking steel decks have about wore them out, but I find that if I vary my tasks, do one thing for awhile, then take care of something else..keeps me going longer...but if I have a hustling offbearer and all I have to do is saw and supervise...well, that's my idea of a good time...
When I had my 15 I had some pretty good days sawing nice SYP logs (1X12's, 10's, 8's). Some days I was lucky to saw two big logs. Now that I have a 40HD I can saw through faster while sawing and leaving the boards in a stack, but I could definitely raise and lower the 15 head faster myself. I think that is the selling point on the super, bigger motors equal faster up/down.
I know I can saw a 1000 bdft and be alot less tired than I did on the 15. :)
Don
Don, that is definitely a factor for anyone..not being as tired at the end of the sawing..I'm perfectly happy with the -15..but the chances of throwing my back out are alot scarcer with hydraulics...my wife is onboard with that one..probably because she has to listen to me snivel when I throw my back out.. :D
to be clear, I had two offbearers that 7 hour day. I dont think I touched a board. I only touch cants, to sweep the sawdust off of them to look at the grain :-)
zopi, that is one of the reasons my wife pushed for me to upgrade. She wants me healthy to do other things. :D
Don
I get about 200' per hour when I am cutting 4/4 stock, more when cutting thicker stuff.
It is possible to cut 1000'' an hour with proper support, and cutting 12x12x16' posts.
Stick with the 200-250' an hour. It's what the majority of the market asks for in 4/4, 6/4, and 8/4 material.
I usually get between 200 & 225 bf/hr of 1" lumber. That's movin' right along and no interuptions.
I'm sure the manufacturers claims are based on clean logs, ideal size (20" X 10') and new blades, along with good help!
There are probably some other variables figured in there too!
My sawing rate is whatever it takes - :D Matters not to me if I spend .66 hours on a log or .772 on it. No time clock to punch here! You get all those logs done too fast, I'm sure the wife can find something for you to do! Something important too! :D
:-X
Around 200 BF/hr is comfortable, it's getting the hours in that is the hard part, too many other distractions. So in a 8-10 hour day I get 1000 BF, one person with reasonable logs, I am happy to see a pile of 800BF.
Other distractions, the list is long, here is a few. Running out of fuel, sharpen bands, hunting for the jack I or someone else left elsewhere, starting machinery when it is 3°, plowing snow, lunch, the cell phone, another machine ran out of fuel, have to run to town to get more fuel( I'm too poor to fill my bulk tanks), the wind blowing the wrong way and making it very uncomfortable to saw(some of us don't have remotes), Tweaking the grinding wheel to the right profile, you know stuff like that.
Tim
I have a little different take on this. I'm a one-man operation with a LT30 non-hydraulic. I should also say that I don't have enough business to keep me going. For that reason, I don't look at bdft/hr as my measure. I look at maximizing my revenue and building a customer base. Now that may sound like I don't worry about efficiency, but that's not the case. I have two things that drive me. 1)Work hard (keep moving and don't waste time) and 2) give the customer a good value. 1) is easy, just work like i would want someone to work if I were paying the bill. 2) takes more focus. I try to educate the customer and I explain what I do and why so that he is comfortable with the end result. I advise him on things like weather the log is worth sawing, How to cut it and how to treat it after he gets it home. I also always refer him to the Forum to learn more. I'm sure I could be faster with a hydraulic mill, but I do believe I give the customer a good value for his money. As for sawing for myself or sawing logs to resell, I constantly am looking for ways to be more efficient around the mill. Most notable, support equipment and lot layout.
Since I do not saw as often as others who custom saw as a business, I keep records of each day's production and the sawmill hours. On my LT15, sometimes with a helper, most times not, and cutting 1" hardwood, I have averaged 108 BF/hr. This is based on actual sawmill engine run hours and not total elapsed time.
My best day ever was cutting 1x12x10 SYP for Dodgyloner who had is Dad helping also and we produced 1550 BF that day. For a LT15, that is really kicking up the sawdust :D.
If I am sawing alone and I produce 500 BF, then I consider that a good day given all the tasks that you have to perform.
So if you assume 6 sawmill run hours in a day and you can average 108 BF/HR with the LT15 over time, that is 648 BF/day. If you were custom sawing for $.30/BF, you would make about $200/day. With the cost of the mill, the support equipment, and your time, that is why you cannot make a go custom sawing with a smaller manual mill.
It can vary a lot , sawing small pine logs (5" all the way up to 8") the other day, just over 150bf hr with a helper. Sawing nice pine logs had 838bf in 2 hours with good help. Steve
I attended a "short class" put on be WM at one of their field days. I'd hate to think that I would have to be as productive as they were to reach the limits of a particular mill. In short, what a mill is capable of producing and what you will actually produce are not the same.
My advice is to work at your comfortable level of productivity. When you rush, things start to happen. You hurt yourself, you hit stuff with your blade, you don't open the log correctly, etc.
I was sawing a job for a customer that worked at a commercial mill. We sawed about 1500 BF that day. The next day he asked his sawyer "how long it would take him to saw 1500'. The sawyer said......"about 3 minutes...... :D
Every thing is relative...... 8)
Quote from: WDH on December 22, 2009, 08:07:46 AM
My best day ever was cutting 1x12x10 SYP for Dodgyloner who had is Dad helping also and we produced 1550 BF that day. For a LT15, that is really kicking up the sawdust :D.
I recall that we had it all sawed and stickered after only 5.5 hours that day, which makes for a rate of over 280 bd.ft/hour. We weren't hurting ourselves, either. So if you have great logs and plenty of help, you can easily outpace their stated bd.ft/hour claims. However, if I am sawing on our LT15 by myself with small or crooked logs, I sometimes don't surpass 50 bd.ft/hr.
As soon as I get the intesinal fortude to go out in the cold, I am gonna run the mill the reat of that day...and I can assure you that I won't be setting any records today..but my ability to obtain free logs and fetch them home far outraces my ability to get them in lumber onad on stickers.. :D Dumpster diving for logs..
Gotta couple Mbf standing or laying around the county...need to make room for it.. ;D
heh...did a couple hundred bd ft in a couple hours this morning..of course it was mostly edger boards and cants...gonna git out thar and hit the heavy stuff in a bit, now that the log deck is clear...
Had a holly stump a buddy asked me to haul off this fall...for giggles, and so I wouldn't have to move the heavy bugger, I threw it in the mill and cut ten nice
turning blanks..all of them spalted..frosty white and black..nice contrast..
Think I might PEG 'em and throw 'em up on Ebay or something...
First, to make money you have to sell product, so yes maximize everything
second, the min and the max with my first bob's LT40
min 36 bd ft per hr at 3 bucks quartersawing for ron the cooper
max 4200 bd ft one day log truck 2 dumps for slabs, 3 workers beside me and 2 by oak all day stacked close. no fun back and forth back and forth change the blade
third, the second bob's LT70 OMG
fast fast fast $360 trailer deck 2 hrs
quartering for ron the cooper goes to 114 per hr at 3 bucks
white cedar flies of the mill lovely wife says these boards are light :D
and did I say I wish every one needed horse fence
get customers sell product
MERRY CHRISTMAS
LOL..It can be an adventure..Finished up around 400 bdft for the day, but the afternoon was spent loading logs on the deck and quartersawing some oak,
and grade sawing some apple and hickory for turning stock...got some pretty Q-sawn, but it's pretty low grade...the tree had been standing dead for some time..heart ws good, but the first couple inches of the log was ratty...got a little spalted side wood out of it though...
The last log i loaded did me in..back and knees were done...I WILL have hydraulics. Soon, I hope.
Rush order today for 90 ea. 3/4 x 8 x 9' and 45 3/4 x 4 x 9' to side a barn out of SYP. Loaded the logs on the deck and was done in less then an hour. The trailer was parked at the end of the green chain and they loaded as I sawed. Kinda wished I had not sent all the hands home for the year now. ::)
On the LT40HD25G and one helper we average 250 bdft an hour.
On the LT70E25 and 3 helpers can average 800 to 1,000 bdft an hour.
Both mills have orange edgers behind them.
On the manual mills, edging on the mill really kills productivity and requires about twice the energy as sawing regular 4-square boards.
An orange edger would be real nice ;D.
no lie...did 100 bd ft of flitches I had been avoiding this morning...got some nice boards out of it but jeez...
We've met the advertized production rate pretty often when we have good logs and things run right. We've even exceeded it a couple of times with exceptional logs.
When sawing oak ties and 4/4 lumber, we have often hit 500 bf/hr average for the whole day. But we have a live deck, edger, dust blower, rollers to roll the ties out on, etc. And a lot of experience in organizing our work. And we both saw so one can load the deck with logs or take away slabs while the mill is still going.
to reduce edging, I started flipping cants 180 degrees after cutting the opening face. I find it really speeds things up.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on December 22, 2009, 10:42:01 PM
to reduce edging, I started flipping cants 180 degrees after cutting the opening face. I find it really speeds things up.
That's the only way I saw now, unless the log is huge and ugly. Steve
Some are telling their cutting rates without posting their equipment, which makes it a little hard to compare.
I'm running a late model Norwood LM2000 with the 20HP engine. The mill is consistently cutting 200 - 250 bd/ft per hour in Douglas Fir 2x4 and 2x6 at a comfortable rate. Larger beams and timbers are of course higher numbers, but I find I like using 2x6 as a fair comparison (At least one of the major mill manufactures uses 2x6 as their method of rating bd/ft rates and after reading about it I sort of stuck with the idea).
My cutting speed in 6" D. Fir averages out at 60 feet per minute. On a sharp band its higher, but this is an average. One note about production though, my current site is very tight on space, being only 30' wide and 175' long. I spend more time playing with the logs than I should, and the sharpening shed is a little ways from the mill. Taking everything into consideration, I find most days I am in the 100-120 bd ft per hour range looking at production in terms of a daily average. That includes everything relating to sawing except lunch.
When edging flitches, I save up a bunch and do 6-10 at a time. I am willing to loose a bit of material in waste in exchange for the time saved by edging them this way.
Quote from: ladylake on December 23, 2009, 04:11:21 AM
Quote from: Dan_Shade on December 22, 2009, 10:42:01 PM
to reduce edging, I started flipping cants 180 degrees after cutting the opening face. I find it really speeds things up.
That's the only way I saw now, unless the log is huge and ugly. Steve
I actually have the exact opposite theory on the best way to edge. Whenever possible, I flip the logs 90
o at a time, which means I end up with more boards to edge, but most of them already have one edge that is straight. This makes them easier to arrange for edging, and I only have to edge one side on most of them.
DL,you are on target,plus you get much better lumber,bert
that is true, DL. I kind of cheat. I will just "snug" the clamp, then I can go get the flitch lined up so the cut "lines up the heart" with the deck.
It works for me. And besides, edging boards really slows you down when you have to do it on the mill.
Since I do all of my edging on the mill and are generally also cutting stickers, I use the 90o flip also.
i typically use flitches for the stickers. But it kills me to saw up all of that clear lumber into little sticks :(
If I'm making stickers, I'll take a few small low grade logs and make them all at once...then i don't have to think about it...same thing with bunks..
We still edge long and heavy stuff on the mill.
We'll drop in the flitches and edge them when we get the cant down to say 6" thick. Often we can slide a flitch right off the cant and clamp and edge it next rather than slide it off and then back on. Any any case, we don't take it off the mill but just push the flitches to be edged off on the loading arms.
I use the 90 degree method some 90% of the time. The only time I don't use it is when the log is bent real bad and won't clamp right turning 90%. Mary uses the 90% most of the time but flips 180% more than I do.
P.S. Jeff asked us mill owners years ago to put what equipment we're running in our profile. You may note may of us old timers have this list of equipment at the bottom of our posts.
I usually flip logs 90°, cut, flip another 90°, cut to the dimension I'm looking for, then flip another 90°, then another 90° and saw down to the bunk.
That is unless I am quarter sawing!
On small stuff, I use the 180° method!
Flatten two opposite sides, then flip it 90° and start making boards.
When I get about half way through the cant, I'll flip it another 180° and saw to the bunk!
How I flip depends on species and what my final product is for. I flip cedar 90 degrees only...with smaller logs and wasting a little sapwood I only end up with a few flitches from each log. They only need edging on one side. I'm sawing a lot of large oak now, with most of it going to board and bats. Its also flipped 90 degrees.
When sawing hardwood for cabinet use, either for myself or a customer I most always flip 180 degrees. The reason is the grain pattern is centered and symmetrical plus I get more wide boards. Customers really like the idea. You can do it by flipping 90 but most don't....they saw too deep on one face than when they flip the log the next board will be flat sawn on one side and rift sawn on the other side. Put that board into a raised panel and it will be most ugly.
Quote from: Bibbyman on December 23, 2009, 09:50:33 AM
P.S. Jeff asked us mill owners years ago to put what equipment we're running in our profile.
It certainly does help when a question is asked. It keeps you from answering a CSM question with a WM LT40 answer...... :-[
LOL...Hydraulic CSM...
My average dropped today...changed the oil and air filter on the mill...sawed one big pine out,
and shut it down for a break, now the little bugger won't start...prolly flooded it or something...
Zopi, you are a bad man. Hydraulic "coal and switches" for you...... smiley_christmas...... :D
just remember on smaller oaks....flip, flip. flip, and flip again or they will curl right up on ya
Lt-15 will take a 29" log...ya..keep thinking that while I'm chopping...
Loaded it with the hydraulics though... ;D
I'd like to make a meaningful contribution to this thread, but I'm not sure if the hourly sawing rate takes my 45 minute break into account or not. ??? I ain't sure I ever sawed for a whole hour at one time. ::)
I hate edging so much that I flip 90 degrees to get more boards with at least one straight edge. If it were not for the bugs, I would just leave the other edge alone, but here in the South, bark on hardwood lumber is a sure bug magnet.
Pine bark too. I am very careful that there is no bark on stickers.
I don't mind edging though. It goes with the territory. Really, I guess that I "act" like I don't mind it...... ;D
Gotta 23"x18"x66" red oak cant (can't) left on the mill...got wore out turning the big bugger...I'll stand it up with the tractor tomorrow and cut the quarters..Dentist over across the river wants some Q-sawn..outer boards in this one were spalted...pretty nice too...got through all my pine this morning, and
hopefully will finish these two big oaks tomorrow...I'm not cutting anymore big logs until santa mizer comes sometime next year, too bloody hard on my body..
Quote from: DanG on December 23, 2009, 08:59:35 PM
I'd like to make a meaningful contribution to this thread, but I'm not sure if the hourly sawing rate takes my 45 minute break into account or not. ??? I ain't sure I ever sawed for a whole hour at one time. ::)
if ya saw fast enough..it doesn't matter...I can relate to the long breaks..I tend to putter if I don't concentrate...
you can use a handyman or a high lift jack to flip over the monsters.
Also, when I had a manual mill, I rigged up a "boom" with a boat winch for turning bigguns. it worked great for loading and for flipping.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on December 23, 2009, 11:55:28 PM
you can use a handyman or a high lift jack to flip over the monsters.
Also, when I had a manual mill, I rigged up a "boom" with a boat winch for turning bigguns. it worked great for loading and for flipping.
I've been procrastinating on the winch boom..I keep hoping Hydroclaus will show up I guess...Been using the tractor boom to move pretty much everything too heavy to move by hand...
Here's how I figured the board feet per hour my first full year in business (no helpers) ...
Annual output = 84,000 BF.
Working days = 180.
Average daily output = 467 BF/day.
That covers everything -- maintenance, unexpected repairs, short days, clearing snow to get at the mill, talking to customers, etc. Oh, yeah ... and sawing ;D.
Quote from: Bibbyman on December 23, 2009, 09:50:33 AM
P.S. Jeff asked us mill owners years ago to put what equipment we're running in our profile. You may note may of us old timers have this list of equipment at the bottom of our posts.
Good idea, I will comply.
I think that the bf/hour claims is a guide line. There is to many things that figure in that can change the rate of production.
I don't know but all this talk about flipping and flopping wore me out :D :D :D.
woodsteach (with a swingmill)
I was starting to thing the same thing, don't know how any lumber gets sawn with all that work involved :D (also swingmill)
Actually I think I would safely claim I cut 200-250 per hour counting the time spent loading logs and moving stuff around etc. Pretty much seems the going production for mid range portable mills looking at this thread.
When I started out sawing, I was after wide boards, so I flipped 90, also most logs were huge, and I was running a manual mill. If I'm sawing to a target, say an 8x8 cant, or dimensional lumber of say 6 or 8 inches, I flip 180. This sets me up to have a very square cant for a timber. Also, once I take a slab off of either side, I am pulling finished dimension boards off the mill. This also works for sawing wide planks. I like to get 16", 18" and 20" boards out of the big pine logs, so I will flip 180 and pattern saw down to the nearest of those dimensions, leaving a waney, large cant if I have to. This knocks a lot of the smaller stuff of the log, and relieves some of the tension and makes for less edging. If I'm grade sawing, I am not as worried about exact widths, and even perfectly square edges, so I will pick my opening face and turn 90, unless I have trouble clamping.
Yes you end up with less edging boards when flipping 180 although both sides will have to be edged but they're on the mill already and only need to be turned over, got to agree with Dave on dimensional lumber, pick out which side to saw through take a edging board or 2 of the other sides first and your at your target size, also it does make clamping easier . Having a good chain turner speeds thing up when turning 180, with a slow turner or by hand I'd turn 90 also. Steve
I'd agree with the 200-250 /hr but DanG, my last custom job with what you guys would call firewood logs, was not quite that high but the customer loved the highly figured/knotty wood. Hedge, sugar maple and silver maple. So ya do what the customer wants with their logs. Sometimes it would be nice to have the long straight logs. ::) ::)
woodsteach
I like to go like @#$% Aftier the log is dogged and on the bunk. After I peel off all the boards I like to sip a frosty while I stack my prized new stash after which I find myself pacing back and forth thinking to myself "What a mess!" For me setup and cleanup is the real bottleneck.
Merry Christmas
Firebass
Woodsteach them long straight logs make very clear boring boards. Got no character and provide no challange to saw. Why they make my grader fall asleep on the job.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10186/DSC00731f.JPG)
I see your grader also lost his stick and his tally sheet or is it a her :D
and BTW
MERRY CHRISTMAS ya bunch a yoper rastafarin sawyer types
I absolutly love this topic.We love to saw with our manual mill so much we sold our bigger lt70.We saw here in the interior of alaska,where we saw alot in winter.The hydrolic mills are h not able to run.We try to log in winter and mill in summer but we do alot of special orders for other peoples logs that they need in summer as boards.Also with me and my two sons we can load turn and off bear quicker than the wm hydrolics.We were at a trade show that had a very famous mill from the east,I wont say the name.When we were chating with him he became very vocal about our mills qualities,he challenged us and gave us just a quarter of his lot to prove in public his claims.Our mill with two of us and their mill with two and all the bells and whistles.We out produced that BLUE machine by a third and edged all our boards and claimed all our saw dust from a catch bucket to a storage box .They had a large sawdust trail and unedged boards they could not count because they were un finished.By the way our manual mill is a 2001 LT15 we love it and cant wait to get that new wm resaw.
AKsawyer, that's very interesting about the hydraulics in the cold. How do you move your logs then?
I agree, this is an excellent thread.