Ok guys, as I promised in my intro message over in the general discussion board I am going to lay out the sawmill build for you guys to have a look at.
My logic followed this sort of thinking
- I need to cut a bunch of wood;
- why don't I build myself a sawmill;
- makes sense to start with a simple bandmill;
- Oh, I have 2 free Briggs engines (16 & 17hp), but they are vertical shaft, not horizontal shaft;
- OK, I'll build a 4 stroke powered chainsaw mill;
- but i need a bunch of dimensional lumber and that chainsaw is going to be really slow;
- So why don't I build a 90 degree, 2 blade, circular saw on the same set of tracks;
and there we have it, this is where I am going. Use the chainsaw head to cut posts, beams and cants, or use the circular to cut dimensional lumber up to 3x7
My Internet research for inspirationFF member Hilltop366Youtube videos
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmkm1WGTYmI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbhG_u5UtgQ
Photo
https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2262&pos=16 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2262&pos=16)
FF member Stevensam's millhttps://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15908/2007-06-21%20007.JPG (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15908/2007-06-21%20007.JPG)
DIYBANDMILL member ttoberer first millhttp://www.diybandmill.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=13&g2_itemId=3235 (http://www.diybandmill.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=13&g2_itemId=3235)
Lucas mill dedicated slabberhttp://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=DS8+16B&catID=195 (http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=DS8+16B&catID=195)
Phase 1 Chainsaw mill
Fairly simple design with a Harvester bar and chain from Bailey's Online, a 16hp Briggs 4 stroke on top; a frame to hold it all together and away you go. I am currently in the middle of this build and hope to have it completed fairly shortly. Here are some pics
Basic Layout
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/CAD1.jpg)
Construction (with engine shown)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_001s.jpg)
Construction (without engine)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_005s.jpg)
Track bearings details
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/CAD2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_009s.jpg)
Ok, this phase is still in design and will wait until the chainsaw head and tracks are done before construction begins.
Inspirational link
http://www.diybandmill.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=13&g2_itemId=5564 (http://www.diybandmill.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=13&g2_itemId=5564)
Basically this is a 17hp 4 stroke Briggs twin vertical shaft powered, 2 blade, 90 degree circular saw similar to the Mobile Dimension saw, but on tracks like the bandmills. The two blades are going to be home made 18" dia 5 tooth brazed carbide running horizontally and a 10" dia 4 tooth brazed carbide running vertically and behind the main blade. The engine will be directly coupled to the large blade by vbelts and the secondary blade will be powered by a 90 degree twist belt off of the main blade shaft, like the MD. If I had a horizontal shaft engine, I would change the orientation, but I am working with the stuff I got.
Brainstorming Sketches
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/circ.jpg)
Yes you read correctly, I am going to make the blades myself.
Going to start with, reconditioning saw plate from used diamond blade concrete saws. I approached a few commercial concrete sawyers and they said they would give me for free as many blades as I wanted up to 5' in diameter as they just toss them into the trash after the diamonds wear out. (Side note, the 5' diamond blade is worth $12,000 each!)
Raw blades (did I mention FREE)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_006s.jpg)
So, I am going to take a 24" blade and cut it down to an 18 (plate thickness is 0.131") and a 14" and cut it down to a 10" (plate thickness is 0.087"). The carbides are going to be CWG 0.230" wide grade C2 pretinned carbides from www.carbideprocessors.com at a cost of less than $20 for 50 tips. Going to build a brazing jig similar to the ones used on the demo videos on Youtube by CarbideProcessors
Machining Operations on the mill with a rotary table
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/blade.jpg)
Finished Tip Geometry
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/bit.jpg)
OK, wow. that is all for now...
James
James your a clever lad well on your way, most of us will just get in your way.Very good idea about recycling concrete saws,you biggest problem will be machining the pockets for the carbide bits,mayby mr. Bridgeport can help.Keep us posted and be persistant.Frank C.
welcome to the forum Pitotshock
Great job :) Looks like a fun project. Don't forget to build yourself a peavey too. I just burned out some plate for the hook and a pined it to a piece of 1 1/4" pipe then welded a hook on the end to grab with. Works great and is practicly free to build. I made a couple extra for when I have helpers around.
Firebass
Pitotshock, your way ahead of me. You think you could help me out sometime ;) ;) ;D 8) 8)
I am impressed to say the least.
Hi Pilotshock and welcome.
Looks like you got a good start.
I think that the two belts would work better than one, one seems to be maxed out at 16 hp, might I also suggest to use spring tensioners on the slack side of the belt, this should work better than having one belt humming tight so it won't slip (tends to overload the bearings).
The two tracks should work better than my mono rail for ease of pushing the saw and eaiser to build. Wish I had done that with mine but my cheapness got the best of me that time ::)
Cheers
Thanks for all the comments guys! Don't think I came to this design all by myself. I poured over every discussion posted in this forum over the last few years to get any comment that might be applicable and I used them. So I really see this design as a FF collaboration.
Thanks for the tips HillTop366, I have thought long and hard about double sheaves and plan on using them in the circle mill, but they are pricey new. If you look at the design specifications of a B series vbelt, this many hp is too high for one. Besides I have the exact same engine and electric clutch you do and planned on using the clutch on the chainsaw mill (was yours out of a Ford YT16 lawn tractor too???) Cool to have the chain engaged and disengaged with the flip of a switch. I do have an idler pulley and spring that was planned for the slack side of the belt to keep it tensioned.
PS, I'm really impressed by your drawings and design, but I do have some misgivings about the vertical shaft engine. I realize that you already have it and you're "cheap ass" :D , but there are a couple of reasons that say to bite the bullet and get a horizontal shaft motor for the twin blade. First, it is tough to find a suitable vertical shaft engine to pull two ¼" kerf blades through ten inches of wood. (7x3) Secondly, you could go with a much larger main blade if you orient that blade vertically, due to the gravitational effect on the rim of the blade. I'm sure a good Saw-Doc could hammer your blade to handle it, but that is just another expense that you wouldn't need.
That being said, I've had a fascination with another engine option for some time now. Back in the '70s, I had a very small part in building a Scorpion helicopter kit. It was powered by a 115hp Evinrude outboard motor powerhead. At the time, that was the lightest powerplant available in that size range, even with the attendant radiator and water tank.
But HEY, you're the Engineer and I'm just an old dink with aspirations that extend beyond my ability and energy. I wish you the best with your project and look forward to observing your progress. If you prove me wrong, I'll be shickled titless! ;)
Howdy, thats a pretty neat setup. How does the lift work? Could you post some pics of that? Thanks TJ
Quote from: TJB on January 02, 2010, 12:18:00 AM
How does the lift work? Could you post some pics of that?
It's not all in place yet as I am waiting for the ACME rod to arrive in the mail. But basically, (or me just over complicating a simple thing) this uses 4 split nylon blocks to slide on 4 round bars with 4 ACME screws connected together by roller chain provide the up/down force.
When it is together I will be sure to post a pic.
However, when I do the second, circular head, I will be using small roller bearing instead of the linear bearing blocks. Just too much work for not much gain.
pitotshock
The chainsaw part of the mill is what I'm interested in. I built a pro cut style mill and it works fine but then I saw Hilltop366's video on youtube and decided I like that design even better, so I have been thinking about building a new mill like the one you are working on. I have a 14hp Kohler vertical shaft engine with a electric clutch off a JD riding mower and was thinking since the 066 on my mill now has something like 7.1 hp, the Kohler will double the hp and be enough for what I want. What I am trying to decide is if I want to put 4 acme rods on the corners to lift it with or if I wanted to use rods like yours to hold it straight and use a boat winch to lift from above. I also like the thought of flipping a switch to engage/disengage the chain. I would really like to see pics from you and Hilltop of the connecting shaft setup. Keep the pics coming and thanks!!!
TJ
Good day Pitotshock (you might have to explain the name to me I'm not getting it)
The electric clutch is real handy the same switch turns on the bar oil as well, my engine came out of a Lawnboy 16, I have another so when I found another with a blown transaxel I bought it so I would'nt have to take the engine out of the lawn tractor in the fall and return it in the spring, The trans axel's are kind of weak on those tractors but the engine goes on and on, the lawn tractor is 20 years old and mowes 3 or 4 acres, I have worn the front wheels and steering out once and the transaxel out 3 times, but the motor does't even use oil yet!
I would take DanG advise on the sawblade or at least put the large one vert and small one horz, someone might be able to tell you the required gas engine hp per 1" of cut , then all you got to do is change your brain to see the log cut from the side instead of the top :D.
And good day TJB as well,
The 4 cycle hp and 2 cycle hp ratings can not be compared directly, the 14hp hp Kohler won't have 2x the power of the 066 but it will be more, (can't remember the ratio off the top of my head). I used a worm gear winch for raise and lower, it stops when you stop turning it up or down and does not have a ratchet to mess with, I also put a lock on the frame to keep it from creeping down when cutting.
Try and get some pictures later, bit of a snow storm right now.
Cheers
Quotesomeone might be able to tell you the required gas engine hp per 1" of cut
With most circle blade setups you plan on having 2 or 3 HP per tooth. So you can get away with 8hp driving 4 cutters on a swingmill size saw, or 100hp driving 50 cutters on a full size circle miil. The action of the cutters is the same in both. More power doesn't help as you run into other problems with the gullet filling with chips and the blade overheating.
A shallow cut just means you can feed a bit faster.
So the plan of using 16hp to run 2 x 4 tooth saws is in the right ballpark. It's going to load up in a full depth cut, but as the edger is probably only going to be 1 or 2" deep there should be enough power for the main saw.
Ian
Hilltop366,
Here is a link for you with the explanation of where Pitotshock came from.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,41079.msg592839.html#msg592839
As for the lawn tractor, the donor that gave up the 16hp for me had a transaxle that was cracked in half. Must have been the same thing as yours with a different paint job.
Ianab, thanks for the info on hp/tooth. Sounds like the engine is just about the minimum size to start out with.
Now only if I had a horizontal shaft output to put that big blade vertical instead of horizontal. Thought maybe a snowmobile engine would work, but I hate the idea of running a big 2 stroke like that. I had toyed with the idea of using a 3 cylinder Suzuki Swift engine w/ carburetor, but those air cooled Briggs are so self contained they make it easy. Maybe I will try and find a free Suzuki engine somewhere... (48 hp at 5100 rpm with a torque of 57 ft-lb) Anybody have any other ideas for a small engine?
I was milling some cherry today and my old 066 quit on me. I'll have to take it by the shop next week and find out what happened. If it's a goner then I will be building this new sawhead sooner than I thought.
Hi TJB
I used a trailer spindle and had a key way put on it for the driven pulley and also had the end turned down a key way for the harvester sprocket and the center driled and tapped for a bolt to hold the sprocket on the shaft, I also got some round shims made to have some adjustment for the sprocket height.
I would not use the trailer spindle and off set engine again instead, go with a two track setup with the engine more centered and a longer shaft with pillow block bearings or a tube turned to take sealed bearings with bolt ears to fasten to frame, more like what Pitotshock is making. The drive pulley(engine) is aprox 5" , the driven is 4 1/4" , the sprocket is 2 1/4" with .404 pitch chain.
If you have a little less power you would have to reduce the chain speed a bit.
Check this one out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRzhdnDqTNQ&feature=related
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRzhdnDqTNQ&feature=related)
and this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRtjbOA0Ho0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRtjbOA0Ho0&feature=related)
Hilltop I had planned on going with the 2 track setup. I already have the mill built, I will just have to change the carriage to take the engine/bar setup instead of the chainsaw I'm using now. If I can make the carriage I have now work it would be great but I can always build another if it doesnt. Here's a pic of my mill
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20126/2504/Picture_776.jpg)
Firecord, thanks for those great youtube links, I haven't seen those ones before. This is quite the machine, with all of the hydraulic controls. :P
firecord
I agree with pitotshock, those are some really cool videos! First time I have seen a electric and hydraulic setup together.
TJ
Quote from: Ianab on January 02, 2010, 01:55:44 PM
Quotesomeone might be able to tell you the required gas engine hp per 1" of cut
With most circle blade setups you plan on having 2 or 3 HP per tooth. So you can get away with 8hp driving 4 cutters on a swingmill size saw, or 100hp driving 50 cutters on a full size circle miil. The action of the cutters is the same in both. More power doesn't help as you run into other problems with the gullet filling with chips and the blade overheating.
A shallow cut just means you can feed a bit faster.
So the plan of using 16hp to run 2 x 4 tooth saws is in the right ballpark. It's going to load up in a full depth cut, but as the edger is probably only going to be 1 or 2" deep there should be enough power for the main saw.
Ian
Excelent Post Ian! This is why I hang out here. I always found it interesting that your mill works well with a 10HP(smaller) engine. This explains why.
Firebass
Ok, the weekend was a good push forward. Got the Log dogs done, welded up the frame and finished welding the saw cart.
The bed is 19.5' long
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_022s.jpg)
Detailed Pics of the log dog setup
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_011s.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_013s.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_012s.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_015s.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_016s.jpg)
And if you need extensions to grab something a little higher, they can be inserted into the tubes like so
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_014s.jpg)
That's looking great, Pitot! I like those vertical extensions on the clamps. Frequently, you run across a log with rotten sapwood that doesn't want to clamp up very well. That ought to take care of that little problem! 8) 8)
OK, here is some more brainstorming on the suzuki swift powered dimensional saw. The 3cyl engine is about 22.5" tall 18" long and 16" wide.
What do you think of this kind of layout.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sketch.JPG)
Pitot,your a man of action.I like the log dog setup adjustable and self locking.Do you have any provisions for toeboards to compensate for log taper??Only thing I can see is there is a minimum distance for twisted "V" belts ,too close and the belt life is dismal.Its hard to beat a well equipt warm shop.I'am sure if something isn't just right with your mill it will be redesigned post hast.Frank C.
The design looks good to me, in that it looks a lot like the MD design. The one thing that concerns me is the bearing in the back-end of the engine with all that lateral pressure on the crankshaft. You seem to be familiar with the MD and you probably know that they modify their VW engines to put a big honkin' bearing there. Of course, it is a two piece case rather than a solid block, and that may make the difference. I would check on it before I put much money and effort into it, though.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on January 05, 2010, 04:15:50 PM
Do you have any provisions for toeboards to compensate for log taper??
Nothing in there yet, but I want to start out simple and expand as time goes on. My plan was just to have some 2x6's handy to adjust for taper if required. I do have a little 2 ton bottle jack sittin around though...
Quote from: DanG on January 05, 2010, 04:16:44 PM
The one thing that concerns me is the bearing in the back-end of the engine with all that lateral pressure on the crankshaft. You seem to be familiar with the MD and you probably know that they modify their VW engines to put a big honkin' bearing there.
Actually I have only seen the MD through this website and photos online, so I am making a lot of guesses here. Thanks for the heads up on the VW bearing upgrade they did. The rear end bearing in an auto engine is certainly not designed for this kind of abuse. Your right in that lateral load problem and I was trying to wrap my head around adding in some bearings to support the output pulley, but nothing has popped in there yet.
What is the rough distance between shafts on the MD that the twist belt runs between? (just to give me an idea of size) As my mill is pretty small, I want to keep things fairly tight together to give the most adjustment range possible.
Great drawings, this is very much what I was looking to do, I have a larger engine from a toyota 2200 cc Camry that I was wondering if it could be used, it makes it's power at a lower rpm. I was thinking about the stress on the rear bearing and figured it would require some sort of extra bearing(s) and mount before the pulley, it's still in the car so I am not sure what the end of the crank shaft looks like but I don't think it will be the right shape to mount a pulley directly to. I have a plate or frame sort of thing in mind that bolts to the engine once the trans is removed with a heavy steel tube turned on the inside for bearings and internal snap rings and a shaft made to except the engine crankshaft on one side and pulley on the other.
Was also wondering if the front of the engine would be better equipped to handle the side load of a belt, it already has belts on it so I was fiquring a load in the other direction would reduce the side load or at least make it down instead of up. It might be eaiser to make a adapter to the crank pulley than the other end of the engine. A side benfit is the vert. blade shaft could be much shorter.
I was wondering if it would be better to make enclosed bearing holders with two bearings on each end for the blade shafts and put it through a piece of rectangular tubing, cut the tubing off at a angle to expose the inside to provide a place to put the bolts to mount it. I know this won't be cheap but if you add up the cost of good pillow blocks (you have 5 and I think the ones next to the blade should be doubbled for a total of 7 imo) it adds up quick.
May be some thing like this or move the main shaft to the right and reverse the position of the pulleys on it.(main pulley in center and second shaft pulley on end)
More things to ponder.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18975/2262/Eng_2.jpg)
Pitot, I can see that you have some challenges ahead of you with that narrow chassis for this type of mill. That factor alone may restrict you to a vertical shaft, now that I think about it. The crossbeams on my MD are 8' wide, and I'm still restricted to about a 36" log, due to the width of the power/saw head. It looks to me like you're going to have to cantilever the engine out to one side in order to save that width for the log. One thing I've thought of is to use a chain like a motorcycle to transfer the power to a jackshaft, to take the strain off the rear bearing. You could run a shaft with a pair of U-joints to a jackshaft, but that would eat up a lot of width too.
On the MD, there is an 8 groove pulley on the extended engine shaft. Six of these grooves are for the shaft of the main saw, one for the hydrostatic drive, and one for the alternator and governor. The main saw shaft has two six groove pulleys, and the edger(s) runs off of one of them. Those pulleys run between a pair of pillow block bearings.
I really think you would profit by seeking out a MD, Mighty Mite, or D&L mill to saw on and study. A lot of this wheel has already been invented.
Just some comments on adapting automotive engines. Very similiar to the problems encountered when using an automotive powerplants in aircraft. Keep in mind that those crankshafts are cast, they crack and break easily when subjected to un-intended side loads. forged steel cranks are a real good idea. The neatest conversion I have ever seen was thunk up by a guy named Steve Whittman of air racing fame. A foot long piece of the outboard end of a chevy truck axle, the outside face machined off flat and holes drilled to mount in the place of the flywheel. Think big metal flower pot the size of the bell housing with a good sized hole in the bottom, and a flange around the top. Bolt that on to the bell housing mounts, with the stub axle sticking out through the hole in the bottom. Then mount a big honkin sealed double row ball bearing in the hole in the bottom of the flower pot. Also gets the engine out of the way of whatever you are powering.. Cheap and simple, but rugged, the kind of thing Steve was famous for.
Good point DanG about the width perhaps if the engine was raised up and the blades more centered under the engine the engine could hang over the track on either side when at the outer most position this way it would not be too out of balance, the balance is something I didn't consider when making my CSM and had to add out riggers on the engine side (and yes I have tripped over them a few times).
Pineywoods what your talking about for a output shaft is more or less what I had in mind except I was thinking about using inner and outer bearings to eliminate side load, I guess it is a little different than spinning a prop, where the belts are putting pressure on one side.
Another mill to look at that Meadows Miller put me on to is the Rimu.
OK, more food for thought.
Quote from: pineywoods on January 05, 2010, 09:15:46 PM
Keep in mind that those crankshafts are cast, they crack and break easily when subjected to un-intended side loads. forged steel cranks are a real good idea.
My intention is to have a fairly small sawmill and only using ~30hp from the suzuki engine (say 3300 RPM instead of Max hp at 5500 RPM). So I would not expect loadings to be excessively high. I am trying to mentally compare the design of the crankshaft and bearings from a Kohler Twin 30hp engine against the Suzuki Swift engine and I would have to say that the auto engine is a lot beefier. Surely if the Kohler/Briggs etc crank can be side loaded to this degree, the auto derivative can be?
This is the insides of a Kohler twin
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/kohler.jpg)
The suzuki 3cyl engine block and crankshaft bearings. (Design as expected)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/g10_engine_block.jpg)
Below is the Suzuki Swift engine being used for the power source in ultralight aircraft. You can see that these use a cogged belt to reduce the rotational speed for the prop. These engines are developing somewhere around 60hp and you can see both the supported and unsupported versions. The unsupported setup will put side loading on the engine bearing to the same degree as the this would
The unsupported belt drive - pulley attached directly to flywheel
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/drive_no_bearing.jpg)
Bearing supported pulley drive
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/drive_with_bearing.jpg)
For their lowest output engines they use the unsupported version. When the engine power is increased they switch over to the supported type.
Ok here is the circular blade superimposed on my small mill tracks. This shows the two extreme positions and the engine position.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/movement.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/end.JPG)
Looks a little tippy when cantilevered out that far. But you could put the battery and fuel tank on the opposite side to balance it out a bit. The engine itself is only 140lbs; put some blades, bearings, pulleys etc and you are up over 200+lbs. You can see why I ran the pulleys off of the flywheel and put the blade in the front. Trying to compact this design as much as possible.
Need to go really high on the frame to get over the top of the engine to put cross bracing in place on the right hand side
What type pilot bearing is in the end of the crank ??? If It's a bushing, what about a plate that attaches to the bell housing holes, with a Flange bearing that just might fit inside the space created by the crank case, or, reverse the bearing to the outside of the plate. I'm referring to some engines that have the flange for the Flywheel recessed as it were, inside the plane of the block.
Put the pulley on the shaft that will be run through the flange bearing and into the crank. Shaft would have a collar welded on to bolt to the crank flange. Put the pulley outboard of the bearing ???
That would reduce the side load a bunch, and have a greasable bearing as well ???
We did something similar on the Porsche engine we first had on Homey.
Yep I see your point about the compactness it probably don't get any better than what you have drawn.
It may be that the easiest way to cure the overhang problem is to make wider tracks.
Insted of a twisted belt in the short distance ,why not a 90* gear box? Surplus Center has a few.
Quote from: Don_Papenburg on January 07, 2010, 11:19:33 PM
Insted of a twisted belt in the short distance ,why not a 90* gear box?
Yes I think a 90* gearbox would work very well to power the edger shaft. But, in general I am keeping this build as cheap as I possibly can (just for fun, really). If I was forking out the cash for a 90* gearbox I would probably go towards a swing mill design. Those mills are such and interesting concept that works very well on the manual machines.
Found a company website that does commercially built chainsaw mills, thought I would share the link with everyone who may not have seen them yet
http://www.lmsaws.com/chainsawlog.htm
Side note, my 4 stroke chainsaw mill is progressing well, but I am now into fabricating all the small parts. So a lot of work is goes into a handful of parts. This follows the 80/20 rule, I am spending 80% of my time on 20% of the machine.
Once I get the thing put together more pics will come.
Thanks, Pitotshock, neat link. Although I believe Tom shared that previously, looks familiar, not sure.
I look forward to your results.
Here are a couple of updates.
On the chainsaw slabber, I have the drive shaft completed and tensioner pulley installed. Just waiting on my 1/2-10 ACME tap to arrive in the mail so I can cut the nylon nuts and install all of the raise/lower mechanisms into their final place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_029s.jpg)
Further design and development on phase 2 (90 deg circular saw) is going well. While the small car engine was a good distraction it is not going to be part of the immediate build as it was going to add too much complexity for this build at this time. Maybe it will become a phase 3. Besides couldn't find the engine I wanted for free as of yet...
So here is the updated design with the 18" diameter blade turned up onto the vertical to improve the deeper cuts and the space between the two shafts made as great as possible to give the 90 degree twist belt a chance. This design built around my existing tracks will allow up to a ~30" diameter 16' long log to be sawn. Big enough for me.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/Circular.jpg)
I also pulled the 17hp vertical shaft Briggs Intek engine for phase 2 out of the lawn mower last night.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_034s.jpg)
Nice to see you are making some progress. On the csm I was wondering if you have a way to adjust the blade or saw carriage (front to back and side to side) so it is running on the same plane as the log bunks. I used a long straight edge set across the saw bar at 90° and measure down to a bunk on each side of the bar. Looking forward to the first test run!
Cheers
Adjusting the chainsaw bar to be parallel to the bed is done with each of the four acme screws on the frame. Each threaded rod is 10 threads per inch with a 16 tooth chain sprocket on the top. So, rotating one of the rods by one tooth on the sprocket will get an adjustment in that corner of 0.100"/16= 0.006". Kind of overkill for this application, but you will be able to true the blade in both front/back and left/right directions.
That should do the trick.
OK, so my 1/2-10 ACME tap arrived and I cut the nylon nuts that ride on the 4 ACME threaded rods. The blocks are machined to a snug fit inside the ends of the frame.
Like So
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_032s.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_038s.jpg)
Then the four screws are activated with one hand crank by a 35 series roller chain. The ACME rod has 10 threads per inch, the sprocket welded on those have 16 teeth and the hand crank has a 40 tooth sprocket. That makes the hand crank move the bar 1/4" per revolution.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_036s.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_041s.jpg)
All the forces side to side or front to back are transmitted through the split linear bearings, which were machined from blocks of nylon. These forces are taken into the cart by 1" cold rolled round bar. I really wanted chromed bar, for corrosion and wear, but was not to be had for cheap.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_043s.jpg)
Here is a pic from below of the belt drive and the electric clutch. Note that I completely screwed up the tensioner pulley as it is on the wrong side! It will have to be moved over the the opposite side to work properly. Don't know what I was thinking that day...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_044s.jpg)
Next up is mounting the fuel tank, battery, bar oil tank and a panel for the engine.
Looks good, next thing you know you will be cutting some wood!
Looks like the tensioner pulley is a V type, if so I would suggest switching to a flat pulley and put it on the outside of the belt that way it will put more belt on the driven pulley for added traction,it will need it, if not never mind.
A source of cheap chrome rod is old car struts and shocks (might not be long enough for this) Your not the only cheap assed on here :D
My original idea for the chromed bar was to use the front forks from a motorcycle and just take out the inner tube. Large diameter and plenty long enough. The only thing is you would need 4 for this design and that means 2 bikes with the same front forks. If I ever upgrade this setup I might do that. There is a bike wrecking yard not too far from here, that you can pick through and find the stuff you need.
Bike forks! , man never thought of that, good one.
OK guys,
here is the latest update. Things are progressing well; got the tanks in place, wiring and control panel built. Got engine started and running (to test the wiring). Disassemble, paint and reassemble. The paint is a two part urethane industrial coat that was on special at the local auto supply place.
This is the assembled saw, just a few pieces to go now
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_050s.jpg)
The 1/4" polycarbonate shield for protecting against the rotating bits
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_051s.jpg)
The control panel
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_055s.jpg)
Well I got the last components put on the machine, namely the chain oil system which consists of a 12VDC solenoid valve and a brass needle valve. This is only switched on when the electric clutch is engaged, so no oil is being wasted
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_057s.jpg)
Made up my chain (.404 / 0.080) and installed it
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_063s.jpg)
Fired up the engine and engaged the chain. Started turning and the clutch seemed to fail. Made a whining noise for about a second and came to a stop. When you turn the belt by hand the clutch just has a grinding feel to it. I think it's cooked. Will have to disassemble and take this one apart.
Just figures, when everything is ready, one of the most expensive pieces breaks...
Never fails to happen to me!
That stinks!
I was getting excited scolling down your post. I thought we were going to see the chips starting to fly.
I guess it is better to break now, while the mill is still sitting in the garage, than breaking when it is all setup in the bush beside a pile of logs with two helpers standing there looking at me...
smiley_exclamation IT LIVES!!!!! smiley_grin_earmuff smiley_safety_glasses
popcorn_smiley
OK, took the e-clutch off and tested the coil, everything was in good shape, just needed the air gap adjusted so the magnet could hold the plates together. Re-assembled and fired it up.
Put a piece of hardwood maple firewood in and did a test run to open it up. Had to adjust the tension of the chain a couple of times to tighten it up, but all went well.
First cut
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_067s.jpg)
8)
Surface finish with the standard cross cut harvester chain
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/sawmill_068s.jpg)
If you used the java uploader to upload and let it resize your pictures, they would be twice as big.
Thanks Jeff for the java uploader it's the best. 8) Bigger pics would be better for my eyes.
Pitotshock, Great Work!!!! But it looks like you went through alot of trouble to cut firewood ;) ;D
Seriously, you did some nice work on your mill. You will have a stack of lumber before you know it. 8) 8)
Congrats on the first cut!
You won't believe the difference when you recut the chain to 10 to 0 deg. it will be way smoother, When you do you will need to take the rakers down the right amount (a little at a time) to match your power output and gearing also type and size of wood . I'm guessing in the 40 to 50 thou range but you might want to start with a little less (it's hard to put some back on).
Also wondering what you ended up using for a oil pump, keep a close eye on the bar there should be enough oil that you see some sawdust sticking to the end of the bar.
8)
OK here is a bigger pic, thanks for the tip Jeff! Although I don't seem to be able to select any directories deeper than 2 levels. Any reason?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_067.jpg)
ahhhh, much better
Glad to see it making dust, I have been enjoying reading this thread. Here's a pic of a board I cut with a 0 degree angle chain.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20126/2504/Picture_780.jpg)
It has begun!
Phase 2 Circular Dimension saw is now in progress
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_074.jpg)
I'm pretty psyched about this build, as it is a departure from what any other homebuilder has really done, lots of little parts to fabricate, multiple sliding mechanisms, making my own blades etc...
Winter is ending and time is short to get this done now, so I will be burning some midnight oil to get this one in on time; as usual. This whole sawmill idea popped into my head in late October, research and design in November and construction start in mid December through to spring.
I've been working hard on the mill and have finished the translating frames, main blade shaft and I have started to machine the main blade saw plate.
Here are some pics of the main shaft made out of a rear wheel drive axle shaft. Let me tell you that this took a lot of work on the lathe as this material is VERY hard. C6 carbide cutters and very small cuts... I have drilled the blade mounting holes (not in pic) with a brazed carbide concrete drill bit. Regular HSS drill bits just melted away.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_086.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_085.jpg)
Oh, I found a commercial sawmill builder in British Columbia, D&L Timber Technologies, who has something very similar to my design. See their site http://www.dltimbertech.com/sawmill-models/dl-twin-saw-models/ Granted, theirs is a little fancier than my completely manual mill...
Pitotshock,
Nice looking work.
On your fixed blade design, is your intention to be able to position the vertical blade horizontally clear out to your carriage tracks? Which would mean the the motor would likely stick outside your main carriage uprights?
I am trying to figure out a similar setup, I have a bandmill with about 42 inches track to track width, but want another carriage with a swingmill. Since my motor would be offset, I would have to roll it clear outside my carriage track on one side. I am thinking I will have to counterweight as well.
More updates
Scrout: Yes, my engine is going to be hanging out on the open end of the frame when sawing at the extreme edge of the tracks. My tracks are only 32" wide and I am attempting to be able to cut a 30" diameter log (efficient use of space!). My track rollers are set up like a roller coaster, so forces in the up/down and left/right directions can be transmitted to the track. I have no fear of a tip over as the track weighs in at 350lb and the motor is only 75lb and over hung by 6 inches or so...
More pics for all you visual chaps.
Main blade shaft in place with pillow block bearings and double groove sheave. Note the blade side bearing is 1 7/16" dia and the opposite bearing is 1 1/4" dia. Both have the same casting size so the axis of the shaft is parallel to the frame. You can see the slots cut into the rectangular tubing to allow the main blade to move so the belt drive can be tensioned (also to adjust the lead angle in the main blade)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_093.jpg)
Cutting down the concrete saw plate on the mill with a rotary table to remove the diamond edge
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_094.jpg)
Final trim of the outer diameter
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_095.jpg)
Mock up of the engine, shaft and blade in the frame
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_100.jpg)
Looks good!
When I made my csm I hade some trouble when trying to tighten bolts through tubing enough without squishing the tubing as a result the bolts would not stay tight and I ended up using a piece of small pipe inside the tubing to put the bolt through. I was also wondering if you were planning on putting some adjuster bolts to hold the pillows in place while adjusting the shaft. The machineing look real nice, I picked up a small lathe a while back but haven't had a chance to use it yet.
cheers and keep up the good work.
Hilltop
Quote from: pitotshock on January 05, 2010, 05:56:46 PM
Quote from: bandmiller2 on January 05, 2010, 04:15:50 PM
Do you have any provisions for toeboards to compensate for log taper??
Nothing in there yet, but I want to start out simple and expand as time goes on. My plan was just to have some 2x6's handy to adjust for taper if required. I do have a little 2 ton bottle jack sittin around though...
OK, tonight was the "build the toeboard jack" night and I really like how it came out. Just a basic bottle jack with a set of scissors to hold the top plate parallel to the bottom plate. It is made out of some 1.5" square tubing, 1.5" flat stock, two bearings, 1" cold roll bar and the bottom is some channel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_102.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_103.jpg)
Hilltop
Yeah I am not bolting all the way through the tubing. the bolts are welded to a carrier inserted into the middle of the tube. When the tightening force of the bolt is applied it will only be on one wall of the tube, so I should be good there.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on March 18, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
I picked up a small lathe a while back but haven't had a chance to use it yet.
Every tool is just another capability to do something a little better. My wife asked me "what are you ever going to use that thing for?" when we bought the milling machine. I couldn't believe my ears :D Now I don't know how I could live without it.
Quote from: pitotshock on March 18, 2010, 09:31:47 PM
Yeah I am not bolting all the way through the tubing. the bolts are welded to a carrier inserted into the middle of the tube. When the tightening force of the bolt is applied it will only be on one wall of the tube, so I should be good there.
That should take care of it. I could't tell by the pics but I would have felt bad if I didn't say something and it caused you problems.
OK, here is the first real big day for the chainsaw mill
I needed six posts for an outdoor horse shelter I am building in a few weeks, so its time to fire up the chainsaw mill. Wake up Saturday morning, get everything packed and head out on the road to the in-laws place. Got there at about 9 am; the mill was setup by about 10:30; headed out to the bush around 11 am, and bring some eastern white cedar back to the yard by about 1pm. Lunch and saw until about 5:00. Boy, what a day! Just need a couple more and I will have what I need.
Have-sawmill-will-travel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_106.jpg)
Everything setup just inside the machine shed
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_111.jpg)
Monster log for the first try - 16ft long and about 10" at the top
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_112.jpg)
One of the 12' 6x6's just completed
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_114.jpg)
Truck loaded and ready for home
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/2605/sawmill_116.jpg)
Hmmm, guess who made the custom roof rack...
Quote from: Hilltop366 on March 20, 2010, 04:12:40 PM
but I would have felt bad if I didn't say something and it caused you problems.
This is exactly why I love this place!
You are very right about bolting through the tube and yes I thought of that too, but someone else who is reading this and going to build something for themselves might read this thread and take something away that helps them. This is exactly the kind of feedback I am looking for, thanks again Hilltop, you have been extremely helpful to me.
Nice roof rack. 8) Were you able to load the sawmill by hand? Or did you use a loader?
It looks like it worked just as planned. 8) 8)
Yes some mechanical help is required to load that frame onto the truck rack, as it is about 350 lbs. So, maybe I should put 'portable' in quotations...
OK some general comments about the first job sawing boards with the chainsaw mill.
Basic stats:
Total actual cutting time through a log was something like 20-25 minutes over the two days.
Time standing and working at the mill would be around 5 hours.
It cut four 16' 6x6s and three 12' 6x6s.
Total linear cuts add up to 400' between 6" and 15" wide.
Chain is still the standard cross cut .404 harvester chain.
None of the logs were very straight, so it gave me a chance to 'see' the cant inside the log
Pro's:
Cut pretty fast through the cedar, 16'= 45 seconds
Cut in both directions, so I didn't have to return the carriage to the start
Got the job done!
Toeboard jack worked great to level out the pith
Log dogs were pretty good at holding down log
Con's
Not enough bar oil - I attempted to use gravity feed for the oil at about 2' head height between the oil tank and bar. This would fling oil all over the place when running without load. Once cutting into a log, I need a fair bit more oil to keep the chain happy. A pump is in order
Too much power for a single B series belt - The belt on this is a Dayco BP series and after all of this cutting it is cracked 90% through in one spot and shows a lot of heat wear. When I was pushing the saw through the log, I kept enough forward force to keep the engine on the edge of stalling out. i.e. developing max power (From a 16hp Briggs). Way too much demand on the belt and the small pulley would get too hot to touch after 45 seconds of use! Going to have to take it a little slower from now on
Traversing the sawblade upwards takes too much effort - cause: when the whole frame was finished welded the tubes that hold the nylon blocks and nylon ACME nuts rotated slightly, pinching the screws and increasing friction.
You have to be vigilant with the wedges when the cut is deep enough to make a thick slab. The pinching weight on the bar resists forward travel
pitotshock
Just so I'm clear, how long did it take to make a cut? I saw where you wrote
Total actual cutting time through a log was something like 20-25 minutes over the two days.
Cut pretty fast through the cedar, 16'= 45 seconds
I hate to sound dumb but I'm not quite sure what you meant. I saw where you wrote (Time standing and working at the mill would be around 5 hours.
It cut four 16' 6x6s and three 12' 6x6s) and that seems like a long time for seven 6x6s so I thought I must be misunderstanding something
TJ
I don't know, TJ. Sounds pretty reasonable to me, considering that it was the first outing for a brand new design/build. It's pretty impressive to me that he made lumber that wasn't pointed at one end. ;) 8) 8) 8)
Yup, that has been know to happen lol I am building a second mill a lot like pitotshocks so I am trying to find out what works and what doesnt.
TJ
No, you heard right, 5 hours of work, 25 minutes of actual saw blade making chips and 4.5 hours of
- take the tractor get a log off the wagon with the log tongs and place it onto the mill
- look to find the 6x6 inside it, turn it a few times
- turning the logs for each cut
- redogging the log down
- adjust the blade height
- restart the engine make the cut
- then move the cant and put it on the truck
This was the first time sawmilling and the first time for me even to be around a sawmill. Definately a learning curve thing here. The last log went a lot quicker than the first one did.
That sounds good pitotshock, you did a great job on the mill!!! I have been around mills and chainsaws my whole life and you sould have seen me on the first log, nothing wanted to go right. Thanks for the info
TJ
As time goes on and your experience level grows, you will learn tricks to cut your grunt work time down considerably. You will also learn tricks that will save you several hundred steps/ day and that will equate to more lumber.
I too am impressed with your success on your first sawing experience. good job. 8)
Hey, I wanted to say something in regards to your 90 deg saw blades you are making yourself. It looks like you are making swingmill / MD style blades, and since youre obviously quite handy, you would be miles ahead if you made the blades insert tooth rather than brazed in style. Just my opinion for what it's worth.
You got a good start Pitot, like I have said before I spend way more time messing with the log and setting up for a cut than cutting. things should smooth out a bit (you may also find yourself looking at lots of hyd. pics and videos soon) as far as the lack of bar oil and being on the edge of the limits for a single belt it all sounds very fimiliar to me. The 10° cut chain may not garb as bad as standard cut chain and I also found that a hand crank feed allows me to keep a smoother feed rate which helps from the cycle of over feeding and then backing off to let the engine recover, makes it a lot eaiser on gear.
I got a idea that when you get the other saw head rigged up and working good you may not use the csm very often.
for the csm, have you looked into the belts that they use on bikes?
that or go with chain drive.
jim
I've wondered about the bike belts too. I think the main reason for belt drive is that it is easier and cheaper to replace smoked belts than sheared engine components. ???
Quote from: Hilltop366 on March 26, 2010, 11:01:46 AM
I got a idea that when you get the other saw head rigged up and working good you may not use the csm very often.
I have the same feeling, but I still think it will be the powerhead of choice when I need to make a post or beam. I don't see myself cutting too many wide slabs for woodworking
As for the motorcycle belts or chains, the electric clutch I am using (which is really handy!) from the lawnmower has an integral pulley and moving over to something else would require a different design. My suggestion for others would be to use an industrial 2 belt centrifugal clutch, or put the engine on a pivot and use the belts as a clutch, but still have 2 belts to take the hp. Otherwise you will have to reduce your speed of feed to keep the belt alive.
Hey guys, in case you are wondering, I am still alive and well; the circular saw is still a go; I just own a horse farm and the summers around here don't leave any time to spare. So where I left off in March, is exactly where the project has stayed.
I plan on getting going again in the next month or so and hopefully get this thing done so I can get to cutting this fall/winter.
Hopefully, it won't be too long before I start posting some updates again...
PS, glad your back, I was just wondering about your whereabouts the other day. I look forward to your posts.
Quote from: fishpharmer on September 15, 2010, 09:04:38 PM
PS, glad your back, I was just wondering about your whereabouts the other day. I look forward to your posts.
Me too
I'm about a half hour up the road from you pilotshock. I'll trade you tours. Show me yours and I'll show you mine. I'll even throw in some bedding for your horses. :)
Tim
QuoteShow me yours and I'll show you mine. I'll even throw in some bedding for your horses
Now that sounds like a plan, although mine still looks like a pile of parts...
and how did you know horses go through a pile of bedding? :D
great looking mill mine has a 16 hp b&s with a 20 inch bar its setup pretty simple have fun and keep your fingers safe
I would like to hear more about this mill! How has it been coming along?
Not too much to update here. The circle mill is still in the same spot I left it a couple of years ago - half built. The big problem is the job I needed it for got done by a mobile Woodmiser so the big push is off and I have 1,000 other projects around the farm that are higher priority... Ah such is life.
I still do plan on finishing this project in a few years, as I hope to buy a bush lot in the next couple of years and build a small cabin out of local materials.
The journey getting there is more important than the destination.
Hey,
First post - And let me start with a big Forestry Forum Plug! This site is awesome. I found pitotshock with a " 'two blade' sawmill" search. And with a little browsing I've also found pineywoods solar kiln with planmans additions (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=50281.0) and a log cabin thread to boot. Every half baked idea that's bouncing around in the back of head is already here with pictures.
And the reason I'm posting:
Pitotshock: You're sketch of the 2 blade saw mill looks like a cad. Could you post the file? I'm building one this spring and that's what I have pictured in my head already. I'll post back any changes / progress so you can see my mistakes for when you get back to yours.
Kguger...welcome to paradise... ;) Pitotshock is building one heck of a saw. He needs to dust it off and get back to work on it. 8) 8)
Anybody remember this old post? Hah!
Well after sitting for 6 years in the back corner of the shop, I'm going to try and complete the 90 degree circular saw build this winter. I layed out all the parts tonight and tried to make sense of all of the stuff.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/20151208_195644.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20867/Circular~0.jpg)
Has it really been almost 6 years?
I'm still following along, I'm very patient.
Pitotshock,
Wondering if you would want to share some measurements with a guy just starting out.
Pitotshock, can you please recommend a good source for the type of sprocket you used?