I was wondering if somebody, or somebodies.... :D Could help me out here. I cut down some cherry trees on my property last summer, and if you look at the logs from the end, the dark wood in center (Heart?) takes up almost the entire diameter of the tree. For example if the log was 16" in diameter, what appears to be heartwood takes up at least 13". I hope this makes sense to someone :-\ The wood making up the "outer ring" is definitley lighter in color. Would the heartwood take up that much of the diameter? The other question is about red cedar. I am in Southeastern Indiana, and I believe it is Eastern red cedar. My question is this. Is all the wood, that is not red, sapwood? The reason why I am asking is because I have heard (from reading everything I can on this site) that if you are cutting posts, or beams You want to try and "box" the heartwood. Now in the case of the cherry, If all the darker colored wood is Heart, there is not enough sapwood around it to box it...... ??? If I sound totally out in left field here, forgive me. I have been reading different stuff from this site for about a year (?) and the more I read the more I figure out I don't know. But I really enjoy the ff, and someday I will even tackle posting pics. Any help with my questions would be great!! Thanks........... jimmy
jmmy6767 Good questions and good understanding of heartwood and sapwood. :)
Yes to your questions about what is heartwood (dark) vs what is sapwood (light outer ring).
Boxing the heart means the pith (center of the log) is located down the center of a sawn piece, such as a cant (or post or beam).
You're not out in left field, but I can see where one could get some confusion putting it together in the order that you are doing.
You may have, for example a 16" diam log small end, and want a 5x5" post or beam out of the center that will remain as straight as possible as it dries. Boxing the heart (centering the pith of the tree) in the 5x5 would be the way to do it. More of a sawing term, than description of the wood in the log.
Ditto. However, my experience with boxing the heart in a cant of cherry is not good. Mine all split on every face of the cant.
And concerning your red cedar, it has what we call sapwood (white) inclusions in the middle of heartwood (red). These streaks are also heartwood and contain dead wood. Sapwood is usually light colored and contains live cells between the cambium and the heartwood. Some species like butternut only have an inch or so of sapwood. They are less efficient in using carbohydrates produced in the crown. Western red cedar is another species that commonly have included sapwood in the heart. Other lighter zones of heartwood could be incipient decay in which the heartwood color is bleached out by fungal action.
Boxed heart in sawing is actually trying to get all the juvenile wood (wood when the tree was young and supporting live limbs at an earlier time in the tree's life in that section of the trunk). As you know trees growing in competition will self prune in the lower bole of the tree and the crown "lifts" as it ages and remains in competition. Pruning also has the same effect as long as dormant buds aren't released to form new limbs. Any new wood after the limbs die and fall away from that section of the trunk produce clear wood, no longer considered juvenile.
In my book boxed heart, at times, includes the sap wood and even no wood at all. An example of no wood at all is a boxed heart timber nice and square on the butt end and 32' to the other end it has wane on 3 of the 4 corners. Timbers with wane on them increases the amount of timber in your stand, you get more volume from less.
Tim
Yes, there could be that much heartwood in cherry. That is very good thing, because sapwood in cherry lumber is not considered desirable by many. For me, I like the contrast in certain projects. In my area, it is not uncommon to see 40% sapwood in fast growing cherry, so that lumber quality is not as good as you see the farther north you go.
jimmy6767
Here are some photos of some Amazon woods clearly showing heartwood and sapwood. We have it also and with the same problems it presents in the colder climates. In the tropics we do not have clear growth rings as there is a continous growing season with no summer and winter as you have.
I have nothing I could add to what has already been described. Keep asking questions, you have a world class University here to learn from like everyone else that participates .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_46_5_PA150169.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_Bloodwood_root_342c.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_Limoncillo.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/PINK_FLAME_LOG_SLICE.JPG)
Second picture up from the bottom is already boxed.
Tim
trees grow over thier dead selves. the sapwood is still alive and carries water and nutrients both directions (up in the growing season, and down when preparing for dormancy.) the heartwood is dead. it carries water up, but not down. and it acts as a place to dispose of waste (i think, been awhile since i took plant anatomy)
only the heartwood of white oak has the tyloses which plugs up the cells and makes it waterproof and thus good for whiskey barrels. dutch elm diease essentially convinces the tree cells that they need to produce tyloses and thus restricts the flow of water and nutrients, essetially the tree kills itself.
Thanks for all the input ;D I hate to admit it but i will have tio read it all a few times, just to think of more questions. I bought some land between Dillsboro and Bear Branch In. And I am figuring out what trees will be good for what as far as building goes. I do want to ask you guys one thing tonight, want to see if any of you can relate. O.k. Here is the short version...... Before I bought my property, when I needed firwewood, I went out, found hardwood, cut it, split it and burned it. Now, I have clearing to be done for my driveway, and I go out there (like today) with my chainsaw, but every straight, mostly straight, decent looking tree, I dont want to cut it down because I don't have any equipment right now to move and stack the logs. So I fight my way through the sticker bushes, and throught the weeds and only get the bent up nasty scrubby stuff. In other words, I spend a lot of time sitting there drinking coffee, chewing tobacco, looking at my trees thinking about what I can turn them into :D ps. and I am getting low on firewood :D :D :D
lol then your a "conservative at heart " today and dont worry about tomorrow till yesterday ? lol go slow and think it out !! trees dont grow over nite...
j6767,
Pick your crop trees and cut the junk around them to give them room to grow. It is common sense in many ways.
Hey fellow Hoosier....nice area Switz/Ohio counties....land and deer.....on your property, cruise the trees, cut in access logging roads...and like WDH says, cull out the trash trees (they'll burn)...let good stuff grow...in spring, and after storms, check what has died out over winter....new firewood...time and experience will hold you in good stead
Thanks for all the response. Is it correct to say that a post or beam with the pith in the center, will more likely dry with little twist or bow? And I would also think the grain would have something to do with this. I will continue to clear around the good trees, and use the rest for firewood. (very good advice thanks) . Indiaxman1 , Where are you in Indiana? Don't hold this against me, but I am not quite a hoosier just yet. Right now I am still a buckeye ::)
Quote from: jmmy6767 on January 27, 2010, 10:25:43 PM
....... Is it correct to say that a post or beam with the pith in the center, will more likely dry with little twist or bow? And I would also think the grain would have something to do with this.
That would be correct.. "more likely" is the key. Grain will have something to do with this, especially if the post or beam was from a tree that had some crook in it (as the pith in the center will not be straight through end to end.
jimmy 6767, hoosier/buckeye....midwest both...you won't regret that sweet corner of sou In......no interstates around....people living close to the earth...I am west of Bear Branch....next to Clark St forest...got some acreage ....rough knobs....white oak/hickory climax forest....love the woods, and try and be good steward.....like carpentry.....measure at least twice....plan..before cutting....this forum will help you immeasurably on many topics....lots of woods knowledge
Indiana Forestry and Woodland Owners Association might be another place to join and get a lot of information. Find your local state forester and get a booklet of all the consulting foresters in your area. IFWOA has field days and that is a good place to learn useful info from people in Indiana that will show you the good and the bad of what they have done in their woods. OWW is the head of the group, so you know it is a good place too.
The forum is a quick way to get answers like you just did.
Thank you cedarman, I will look them up. I appreciate the info.