It was above freezing this afternoon, i let the glow plugs on for the reccommended 25 sec. the started turned but she didn't fire. it was puffin smoke after 15 or seconds. tried twice more later no luck.
I turned the idle up in the cold could that be the problem?
Best thing to do would be to hook up to your mill and head for my backyard ,not trouble starting here ;D ;D
u pay postage or should we UPS :D :D :D
Turning the idle up doesn't hurt, diesels will start the best if held wide open. Are your glow plugs working? Steve
James,
How old is your perkapilar? Is it pre ULSD??? All diesel these days, red or not is ULSD and you need to think about additives on top of the antigel. synthetic oil for lubricity, Acetone to help offset the paraffin they replaced the sulphur with and xylene to stabilize it.
I would also check the fuel filter as they tend to gum up in the cold if you don't have the above goodies in it. Also feel free to cycle the glow plugs 3 or 4 times before firing. Is the battery charged up? Are the plugs getting juice?
Dave
Is it cranking fast enough, how is the battery? Did you try jumping it?
Tim
Good chance its a glow plug issue. Simple test: Get your tesrer, find a glow plug, put pos lead on top term of glow plug, neg lead on good ground, now energize glow plugs. Do you have 11 volts or so?If not figure out why,ie circuit that should give power to glows is faulty. if you do have volts, dig further. This test will NOT tell you if you have a faulty glow plug or three.
My Isuzu has a electric fuel pump, when I turn the glow plugs on I can hear the pump slow down some from the current draw. It must have fast heating glow plugs, this morning at 0 F , glow plugged about 6 seconds and it started right up and this engine won't start at 70 above without them. Steve
Sound familiar, in my case the glow plug fuse was burned out so no glow plugs. The poor motor would smoke but not start.
You can measure 12V at the glow plug with a volt meter, also some engines use a metal bar as the lead to the glow plugs, if you have one then the bar can get hot when the system is working correctly (touch the bar and see if it is getting hot).
Last test would be to measure the glow plug terminal to ground with an ohm meter (the leads would need to be removed from the glow plug so you can measure them one at a time). Should be able to measure a pretty low resistance; if open circuit then that glow plug is bad.
I know with my tractor (Case 885XL) if it is below freezing by a few degrees I need the block heater to warm up the block. It is an aftermarket coolant heater with 1500W element and a small circulation pump built in. Leave that on for about 30 minutes and it fires up right away. But the Case engine has NO glow plugs what so ever, just compression start.
If the glow plug fuse is blown...most likely you have at least one glow plug shorted to ground. One easy test is to remove the bus bar from the glow plugs.... take a 16 gauge wire and connect it to the Positive post of the battery and long enough to go to each of the glow plugs independently. Now ....we are checking to see if one is shoted to ground....touch the wire to the first glow plug....you should see a small spark ...glow plug is heating and is not shorted, a big spark means the glow plug is shorted to ground and no good. Now perform this test on each plug..you will easily tell a shorted plug from a non shorted plug. With an Ohm meter sometimes it can be hard for some to tell the difference between a good and bad plug. If there is no spark at all the glow plug could have an internal open that does'nt allow it to complete the circuit and heat up.....But,,, that wont blow a fuse. Now thats glow plug 101.........
Woodmills 1, does your engine have an electrical or mechcanical shutdown? If it does, the engine will not start untill the reset button is pressed, otherwise the engine will not get fuel until the oil pressure builds up to open the rack in the fuel pump. What engine do you have? If it is an older engine and you are using winter fuel it is possible that the injection pumps are worn enough to bypass fuel. I had this problem last winter with a Cat D17000 loco engine. Contacted the fuel rep and he advised me to dump several gallons of a certain type of hydraulic oil in the fuel tank to increase the fuel viscosity as the fuel was too thin for the old pumps. It worked. Ths modern fuel is a real PITA. You may also have a frozen fuel line. Open the filter bleed and crank the engine over with the starter. If you have fuel flowing from the bleed you may be OK. If not, check line to the tank, fuel filter, fuel level, etc. You may have to open the throttle half to wide open to start, but when it does, cut the throttle back to idle to warm up. I had my D330 running yesterday (-20C), no glow plugs, just a couple of short bursts of ether and she was running. If you have any more questions feel free to contact me. I have been working on these old Cats for over 40 years and pretty well know their habits. Cheers, Larry.
2005 cat 62 hp ona lt70 with low low hrs. started and ran fine yesterday
started every time cold this winter but died quick till I upped the idle
will check the fuse thing
this moter seems to like and need the glow plugs.
Checks as above,its very good form to remove the buss bar/wires and clean them retighten they tend to loosen due to heating and cooling.Any resistance due to loose or oxidation has a big effect on low volt current.Frank C.
Does the Glow Plug light come on ? Check with 12 V test light on the bar connections on the glow plugs. If you have power there, remove the glow plugs and hot wire them see if they glow. If you dont have 12 v at the glow plugs there is a relay and a fuse. We have not seen many fuse failures. I have seen the relay fail, and the glow plugs burn out. The glow plug relay has a timer on it it will only come on for 30 sec.
Hope this helps.
M
Check the fusible link which is a flat ribbon of metal bridging the screws that bring power to the relay (inside the black box on Loader arm side of engine) If it is burned out, it is very easy to not notice that it is supposed to be there. The relay costs over $100.00. the fusible link, if blown, is around $7.00 (it's a 50 amp link). Mine blew on my 51 Caperkins, but I wasn't able to find a short in the circuit to account for it. Works fine, now.
Unbolt the fuel shut off solenoid and see if it starts. If it does see if you have voltage at the solenoid.
thanks for all the tips, gonna be way cold next few so I may not have at it soon. Gonna try to reduce the hunydu inside list. will check the power to the glow plugs first.
On the Cat 966 and 980's I have opperated you can watch the amp gauge and when applying the golw plugs it will show about 15-20 amp draw when they are working. I kinda wonder about fuel filters. On the OLD machines there was a little screen filter at Injection pump and was often over looked and traps water
Those glow plugs do take quite a few amps, if you have power coming up to them the easy way to test would be to unhook the link between them then use a battery charger and see how many amps each one is taking. Steve
Gday
It takes a clever bloke to make a cat croke ;) :D :D was a saying i heard from an old bloke once sorry to be a s.a but i had to slip it in Mate ;) im pretty dang sure you will get it sorted and having the sawdust fly again soon as it dosnt sound like a huge drama Mate ;) ;D 8) 8)
anyway whats a glow plug sounds like somthing we wouldnt need in our climate ??? ;) :D :D :D :D ;D 8)
Regards Chris
I would try leaving the Glow Plugs on longer. On both my Kubota an my Dodge Pickup I find that I need to cycle the plugs 2 or 3 times when it is really cold out, and then it starts right up, On the Cat 977 you can see the Amp Gage show a discharge when you holt the switch in preheat and it takes at least 45 sec.
If it is smoking I don't think you have a fuel problem.
Last summer we had to rebuild the wiring harness that goes to the glow plugs. You won't believe what the little clip that snaps on the glow plug costs!
chris
unless your pulling my leg ;)
a glow plug is heating device used to assist in warming the air inside a diesel cylinder to aid starting when cold, usually 10* F and lower ----- WARNING---- do not use ether with glow plugs bad things can happen
this is my noncertified mechanic explanation
Gday
Genlgr Sorry I was mate I dont know how you blokes get thiings to work somtimes in that weather ;) ;D we have them fitted as standard to alot of things down here but they'd only get used every so often during winter ;) but then alot of gear i have used of the gear dosnt even have them from the start ;) Ive even shot one out of the head on a old 60s model TD15 drott loader i was using for a bloke out the bush once :o :o :) :) ??? ??? ::) ::) those old girls can be a pita to start sometimes ;) :D :D :D
:D :D :D we're cool 8)
as far as startin the cat i would keep the glow plug on for a little longer or cycle them towarm things up some more my JD 990 tractor has plugs nad when it's 0* it takes a couple of cycles to start
Gday
No worrys mate ;) :D ;D I was pretty sure you'd be asking how id managed blowing a glowplug outa the head and through the bonnet ;) Ill let you in on it anyway ;) :D :DI was told by the owner the only way the bloody thing would start on a cold morning was to use Airostart and the glowplugs together which i wasnt too dang sure about :o :) ??? :-\ :-\
well i tryed things his way and was back at the mill not long after id left looking for another glowplug as when id finally found the old one it had the thread stripped of it got another old one and bent the end of a csaw file and a magnet to fish the old thread out with out any going into the cyl head whacked the new/old one back in and away i went again ;) :D :D :D :D ;D
Regards Chris
Keep in mind that you are creating heat when you have the glow plug on and that bar that connects them to the power is a fusible link. It is better to cycle the glow plug multiple times with a cool down period of about double the time that they are on rather then to just extend the time that you have them on. Example: 20 sec on, 40 off, 20 on, 40 off, 20 on, verses on for 60 sec.
I don't have experiance with a Cat but some glow plugs have a relay that leaves them on for a short period then when the light goes out you better crank or they will cool off quick.You can reglow them though by turning off the key and starting over.In outher words if you hold the key too long your cranking with a warm glow plug not red hot.It was mentioned before but sometimes a bat. will have one bad or weak cell, plays hob with everything cold starting, same with a undercharged battery.Remember its always the simple things that will get ya.Frank C.
IMO double or triple glow plugging can be improved on. Think of it how much air does that tiny glow really heat and after 40 secs off is there really much heat left in cyl? On my ancient kubota powered forklift I experimented and found it more effective to crank engine over first you get a bit of smoke thats heat right?Now glow plug it and it starts right up.I believe there are way more total btus of heat put into cyls from that initial cranking than a first glow plugging. Havent tried this with other engines...
clgr
I finally got some time to check on the cat yesterday, no voltage at the glow plug bar
a quick look at the manual showed the works inside the box on the loader side of the engine. A relay and a fusable link
upon inspection the link was burned through. called indy to find out how to see if the relay was good. told to check for power to the link with key on, found one side hot with key on
drove to the supply house that has helped me with fusables on the LT 40...sorry they say we no longer stock any links....anchient technology.... :o
ordered link and spares, should be here tue or wed
thanks for all the hints and help
went to start the blue ox......and the honda wouldn't fire :D :o :o ???
JM,if you know the amperage you can use a common automotive circuit breaker they come 20,30, 40, 50 amp est.or even the big two prong fuses.Frank C.
I found some up to 300 amp automotive breakers to replace the fuses on my mizer. They are used in the circuitry for the big boom boxes. Google circuit breakers.
Have you been having any problems with condensation (water) in the tank?
Most fuel gelling problems are usually mis-diagnosed water problems. Once a paper fuel filter element gets wet with water, it just never seems to flow properly again. Getting smoke is a sign of getting fuel. But you're not firing for one reason or another. It should fire on ether but be carefull not to cycle the glow plugs after giving it a snort. We use "melt-down" to liquify fuel problems in cold weather. Meltdown works best if it's warmed before dumping into a cold tank or filter housing. If the fuel level in the tank has been kept low, you've got some condensation. If your transfer tank doesn't have a water seperator on it, you're getting water. If you use meltdown or other similar product, dump the water seperator and fuel filter and add clean fuel and some additive to both. Warming the oil helps too. Thicker oil or dirty engine oil will call for more torque to turn over that cold engine. We add 10% kerosene to our off-road equipment fuel tanks in the winter and never have problems, 10-20% kerosene seems to get us closer to the #1 diesel we used to buy. Todays #2 diesel fuel seems to have a much lower cetane rating than what we bought as #2 years ago. Amzoil cetane booster is expensive but it works wonders and will give you a great performance boost. The hotter and cleaner combustion will reduce visible smoke. One of my instructors used to say "it's cheaper to keep the tank full, than to keep it empty", most of the kids in that class couldn't see what he meant but these problems are proof he was right. Full tanks don't get much condensation because there's little air volume. Hope this helps. Drew.
My Perkins uses a automotive fuse, pretty simple and easy to check/replace. If you are bleeding line the wrench can short the bar out and pop the fuse. I think mine is 20 amp (three cylinder).
Just in case someone searches and wonders how it was fixed.
Quote from: woodmills1 on February 12, 2010, 08:04:20 PM
got out there today and replaced the fusable link, one lug was a bit loose so maybe the burn out reason. Cleaned all contacts and tighened it up. cycled the glow plugs for 20 seconds and off, checked the link it was fine. 20 seconds off then 20 seconds on she fired right up. 8)
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,42098.0.html
thanks redog I forgot to post here