Just wondering if it's cost effective, and that much of a hassle to sharpen your own blades?
Or should a guy just get in the habit of sending them out.
Gotta tell you, I like to be involved with everything I do, and I make, fix, and repair about everything I use.
Anyone have a used sharpener for sale? LOL
Jim
Hello Panman and welcome to the Forestry Forum. :)
I bought a sharpener and setter last June, and over the summer and into the early fall I had set and sharpened 95 bands for my mill.
Now that wasn't 95 individual bands, it was obviously several of the same bands over and over!
The way I figured it, it would cost around $7.00 per band, counting shipping and everything to send them to resharp.
Now I have my own sharpener and setter, and my outfit will be paid for before I sharpen 400 bands.
I would recommend that if you have the time, get your own sharpener and setter.
Look around, you may find a used one in good condition!
Depends upon how many blades you will dull in what length of time to determine cost effectiveness.
Do you want to spend your spare time "sharpening" or "fishing"..... :) Seriously, it can't take too much time to sharpen, but I still use that time "fishing"..... :D
Jim,it depends how much milling your planing to do if just for your own use it may not pay. Try resharp for a wile and look for a used setup you can make a setter if you find a grinder.I sharpened bands for a wile by hand with a shaped stone on a bench grinder,that gets old fast,but is doable.Frank C.
Jim,it depends how much milling your planing to do if just for your own use it may not pay. Try resharp for a wile and look for a used setup you can make a setter if you find a grinder.I sharpened bands for a wile by hand with a shaped stone on a bench grinder,that gets old fast,but is doable.Frank C.
I also sharpen with a bench grinder and find it not "getting old fast", it works and well. It takes 6 minutes, and that is the max time, to sharpen one band, that is twice around with a light sharpening. You don't need a mass produced sharpener, small scale sawyers should try this method as an alternative. You need to be able to shape the grinding wheel just right, this is the most time consuming part, as I imagine it is with the other grinders out there. I get 12" long sample blades sent with my bands to test the grinding wheel with. I have been using this method for 15 years.
Tim
Quote from: moonhill on February 19, 2010, 12:28:23 PM
I also sharpen with a bench grinder and find it not "getting old fast", it works and well. It takes 6 minutes, and that is the max time, to sharpen one band, that is twice around with a light sharpening. You don't need a mass produced sharpener, small scale sawyers should try this method as an alternative. You need to be able to shape the grinding wheel just right, this is the most time consuming part, as I imagine it is with the other grinders out there. I get 12" long sample blades sent with my bands to test the grinding wheel with. I have been using this method for 15 years.
Tim
Moodhill
Do you have any pictures of your grinder?
I started off sharpening my own because I knew of no company that sharpened the bands.
What I learned from doing that is that everyone should sharpen their bands and not necessarily use the economics as a reason. Yes, I found it much cheaper and more reliable to do it myself, but I have always felt better being in control of myself than farming it out anyway.
When you use good sharpening gear, you learn what makes a band cut. You can judge whether it was sharpened properly or where the other person missed the mark. It's an education that every sawyer should treat himself to whether he sends his bands out to be sharpened or not.
I generally used two and sometimes three bands a day. When I got home, I went straight to the sharpener and set and sharpened those bands. It took about an hour and most of that time was on the sharpener, slowly polishing the tips of each tooth. Usually I finished well inside of the hour, but it was enjoyable, wind-down time.
As my workday lengthened, I began stocking bands and sharpening on the weekends. That's when it could become drudgery. But, if I found that I wasn't in the mood, Sharpening three bands assured me of another day of sawing and I went fishing. It's being able to be my own master that is important to me.
I also was able to play around with configurations and found it fun.
If you can justify the cost of a sharpener, you are being remiss if you don't get one and use it.
Absolutely agree with Tom's philosophy. ;)
I usually get home from a day's sawing right around supper time.
When supper is over, I'd retreat to the garage and sharpen the days bands. Sometimes it's 2 and other times it's 3.
I, like Tom, also find this to be a relaxing period of time!
Then I take those bands and put them in the back of the box. I usually rotate sawing with either 5 or 6 bands.
I have a slightly different perspective than Tom.
I know myself well enough to know that I simply do not have the patience to spend that little extra bit of time to get it just right. I have no trouble with one-time setups, getting things just so. But with repetitive tasks, I'm hopeless.
So I accept that I will have to give up that extra bit of control and the ability to experiment. I admire people that can take the extra bit of time, and I understand why they will do things differently.
For me the bottom line is, I'm more productive sawing than sharpening and setting.
I sharpen and set my own blades. I like others find it to be relaxing an it gives you a close look at what is going on and seeing the teeth that are broken and trying to remember what ya hit. I sharpen for myself and no one else I think that would make it a job in stead of fun 8)
Sam
I'm from the other side, I send all our bands back to WM Resharp. They do several operations to the band above and beyond sharpening and setting. I think I figured it to be about $8 with shipping. If there's a bad band, they replace it. Chuck White, you said you'd have it paid for in 400 bands, does that include a wage for your time at the sharpener? Just curious.
Quote from: wewacountryboy on February 19, 2010, 12:56:09 PM
Quote from: moonhill on February 19, 2010, 12:28:23 PM
I also sharpen with a bench grinder and find it not "getting old fast", it works and well. It takes 6 minutes, and that is the max time, to sharpen one band, that is twice around with a light sharpening. You don't need a mass produced sharpener, small scale sawyers should try this method as an alternative. You need to be able to shape the grinding wheel just right, this is the most time consuming part, as I imagine it is with the other grinders out there. I get 12" long sample blades sent with my bands to test the grinding wheel with. I have been using this method for 15 years.
Tim
Moodhill
Do you have any pictures of your grinder?
Sometimes I do find I am moody.
I just don't do pictures on the FF. I do have a video and will try to get it onto U-tube in a few days. Stand by.
Tim
I have a sharpener, if I didn't I would build myself one. Setting one tooth at a time can get to be a pain, so I'm going to build myself a dual-tooth setter. I pile my dull blades in the sawshed until I get down to the last sharp blade, the take a bunch of time to sharpen a dozen or so. ;D
Whether to sharpen your ownn or send them out ?? I think there is no definite answer, I can advantages for both ways. Just depends on time available more than anything else. Definitely can make more money sawing than sharpening blades if you have enough sawing to consume all the available time. Like Tom said, there is a learning curve, that can be very beneficial..
Moonhill Tim,when you grind the bands do you use anything to support the bands overhead.??I always wanted to put a wooden roller over the grinder so holding and feeding into the grinder wouldn't be so tiring on the wrist.Timberwolf had the directions for modifying a bench grinder,don't know if they still have them,they even had a vidio.Frank C.
Just curious, I have a number of tooth setters for hand saws, anybody ever try one on a band saw blade.
Jim
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 19, 2010, 07:05:10 PM
Chuck White, you said you'd have it paid for in 400 bands, does that include a wage for your time at the sharpener? Just curious.
Dave; I am just figuring the "dollars"!
My sharpener and setter cost me $2,455.00 to my door.
I'm figuring around $7.00 for resharp of one blade.
$2,455.00 ÷ & $7.00 = 350.xxx blades to come out near even.
Now, myself, I enjoy the time spent sharpening and setting, much as my enjoyment while sawing.
I also come away with the satisfaction of knowing I sharpened the blades that work so nice.
You can't really put a $ figure on something that you enjoy doing!
I am with Tom on this as well. I have spent time working under a sawfiler from Holland while in the production mill, and feel that the more you do in house the more control you have over your whole operation, I don't farm out my millwright, or electrical work either.
Where I differ from Tom is that I keep about 50 saws on hand and hang them from the rafters, folded up. When the 4x4 marked "Dull" starts getting full I schedule some time for sharpening saws. I like to do them in batches of 20-30 saws. When I pull a saw off the mill, I make notes on it with a felt marker so I know what to look for on sharpening day. I also keep track of the saws cutting history. I like to be the one who decides when a saw is due to be replaced and when to take a little extra time to see if it can be salvaged as well.
When I bought my mill the sharpener was disassembled in a box all rusted up in a corner of his shop with several parts missing, so I sent the first saws out to a local saw shop, they came back with badly burnt teeth and course grinding marks on them. The first cut cost me a $100 log as that saw took a 6" dive before braking. I went in right then and there and ordered the parts to get my sharpener up and running and have not sent a saw out for sharpening since.
I have a jig I set up for a bench grinder that work ok, it needs a little tweaking. I finally sent a box of blades to a saw outfit cause I was shot on time, I thought they did a very poor job. They only touched the face of the tooth, burned the teeth, and they didn't clean the blades so I doubt they set the teeth. And it only took 2 months to get the blades back. :( Needless to say I wasn't real impressed. I will never do business with them again, whether it is sharpening or buying blades. I do a better job with the bench grinder.
WM will resharpen any of their blades, and they will make blades in custom lengths. I have not had any problems with the ReSharp program.
Question: when you guys (Moonhill, others?) say you go around twice do you do the whole profile on the second pass or just the back of tooth. Somewhere Ive read they cut best if back is tweaked last.
I too would not want others messing with my bands.
clgr
Interesting post.....
When we first starting milling there was no resharp program at WM. So we had to do it ourselves.
Which we did for many years, until the resharp program came out. When it first came out they said you "had to" send in two boxes of ten at a time. Well to do that you had to have two boxes to send in, and two to have on hand while the first two were being sharpened. And maybe even another one just in case. So that's 5 boxes at $200 a box (back then).
I didn't have the money to do that, as I didn't have $1000 to put into blades. So we continued to sharpen and set our own.
Well the setting part is a real drag for sure. At least to me. So I tried one of the crank setters where you turn the crank and it sets both left and right teeth and then moves on. What a piece of junk, at least to me it was. I shouldn't say that too loud I think someone from the forum bought it from me, years and years ago.
The was no way to check the set to make sure it was setting it enough, and adjusting it to set correctly wasn't easy at all.
Later on I was at a pre-logging equipment show seminar being held by WM at Springfield MA, and they asked who was sharping themselves and who was using resharp......
Well the speaker pointed to one owner in the back and asked him why he didn't raise his hand and vote.....
He said he didn't know how to vote as he was using blades until dull and then grinding them himself. After a couple of grinding he would put them back in the box and send them in. And let them be cleaned, set, and resharpened correctly......
What a great idea, I said to myself.....I can do that.....
So now I grind a few times and then after the set has been mostly ground out, I send them back. I haven't set a blade in years and years, but I grind some all the time.
It made a great improvement in my blade performance and greatly reduced the amount of blades I used per year.....
Well sorry for the long post but that's the story from here.....
Well you first have to answer honestly are you running a business or just a hobby? If it is a hobbythensharpen your own but, if you are running a business then sharpening is an expense. Also, as someone pointed out, are you getting paid to sharpen them?? I send all my blades out as I run as a business.
Quote from: dmulac on February 20, 2010, 03:23:30 PM
Well you first have to answer honestly are you running a business or just a hobby? If it is a hobby then sharpen your own but, if you are running a business then sharpening is an expense. Also, as someone pointed out, are you getting paid to sharpen them?? I send all my blades out as I run as a business.
There really are several questions that need honest answers : Do you make more sawing than you pay to sharpen? If you do, then a resharp service is a justifiable expense. If you don't, then a resharp service is an expense that can be eliminated to increase profits. Also: do you enjoy sharpening your own? and do you sometimes sharpen to suit the wood? If the answer to either of these is "yes", then you might want to sharpen at least a few of your own. And: do you just plain "hate" sharpening? If so, then send them out.
There's no "one size fits all" answer
cheers
John (I clean, set and sharpen my own - and there's nobody hereabouts who'll do a "decent" sharpening job for less than $15-$20/band)
I'm sure I'll be sharpening my own, sooner than later.
I like be involved in all aspects of everything I do, doesn't matter if it's cost effective or not.
I'd like to see a few pics of your homemade grinders, if I can I'll probably fab up my own.
Jim
After 16 years of sawing...mostly hobby...but sometimes business, I have a routine. Get an early start like maybe 9am. Saw until I get hungry which is sometimes as early as 11 but never later than 11:30. Pull the band, and into the house for my noon nourishment. Check the FF along with craigslist and out to the shop to re-sharpen my band. Back out to the mill for another couple hours of sawing...if its not to hot, or to cold.
When I first bought my mill I would have maybe 30 or more bands hanging from hooks in the shed. All different...some even from different manufactures. What a mess...no idea what I had and sharpening/setting when the time came was torture. Over the years I refined my technique. Buy a box of 15 WM 7 degree bands and take out 2 or 3. Use them until they are used up then pull out a couple more. Try not to ever have more than 3 in rotation. When I re-sharpen, depending on how the wood is sawing I might add a tic more hook or maybe a little less. I only set when the band tells me it needs re-setting. That might be after two or maybe four re-sharps. The real benefit of this system is I always have a brand new band...a full 1-1/4" wide if I need one for a 29" wide cut in a knotty old hard log that shows up. I also get to make the decision when a band goes to band heaven...if it is only 1" wide and still cutting good it stays. Some that re-sharpen would have trashed that band long before reaching 1".
A poor picture of my band grinder that was in my gallery. We need somebody smart to make a utube on how slick it works.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/2006_01040135.JPG)
I sharpen my own. My philosophy is similar to Tom's and some others.
For me the time I spend sharpening is quality time for me. I sharpen in the evenings of at night during times I would not be sawing.
I could be watching TV but I find the sharpening to be relaxing.
I label my bands as a One, Two or Three. The number depends on the quality of the band. I salvage and use bands that I doubt I would get back from a resharp. These are the number Threes that are missing some teeth. I can still use them on some questionable logs I really do not want to place a #1 band into.
As others have mentioned, I label each band when it comes off the mill. I know how that band was performing and if there is anything I need to pay attention to.
When you sharpen and set your own bands you also have the option of setting to your specifications, what works for you. I will set a group at 28-30 for fresh pine.
If I use a band I have sharpened and set and there is an issue, no one to blame but myself.
I suppose the bottom line for me is that I like to sharpen my bands.
I tolerate the setting part. ;D
Its a good feeling to handle the sharpening "in house" and not a big chore if you have the tools and a pleasant place to do it,not a cold dark shed.If you do your own your not so tempted to run them too long.No big deal to try a different tooth angle.Resharp does a good job,outher sharpening shops are spotty some good outhers poor.If your an independent cuss with the will to do it right by all means grind and set your own. Frank C.
Here is my first picture I have personally posted here on the FF, and it is a moving picture at that. Sorry no music or verbal description to go along with it just the genny running in the back ground, my welder/generator. It is self explanatory, I guess. Nothing fancy it does the job I need it to do.
As a note, the sound is wacky, it has not processed completely, that may change.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDDUMnsaUNU
Tim
Quote from: coastlogger on February 20, 2010, 12:56:20 PM
I too would not want others messing with my bands.
That is certainly a factor with me. There's no resharp in Canada, but WM gives out the names of people who sharpen bandsaw blades. They also get feedback from people like me to be sure they are only recommending reliable businesses.
I have a very reliable sharpening guy. He ran a Wood-Mizer for many years (and sharpened his own blades). An injury eventually made him give up the sawing, so he started a sharpening business. He understands what I need and will do special sharpening jobs for me at no extra charge.
If I couldn't find someone like this, I'd be sharpening my own.
Tim;
Pretty slick, and it only took 3 minutes.
Looks like I'll be trying your method.
Don't your bandsaw blades, have offset teeth? You ground all the teeth the same way.
Looks like you have a scribed line on your add-on table for a blade reference?
Thanks
Jim
That's a very "basic" sharpener you have there Tim!
But, from what I see in the video, it works very well!
Really a very slick outfit!
Congrats on making it yourself!
DanG,no wonder my wrists got tired I was doing like Tim but having the band loop up,probibly the cement floor had something to do with it.This method would key in nicely with the Rogers plan ,touch up your bands on the grinder a couple of times then send to resharp when they need a set and even them up.Tim how do you set your bands??If done correctly this method dresses the whole tooth.You kiss the back of the tooth on the side of the wheel then into the pocket with the wheel dressed to the proper hook.A diamond wheel dresser is a great aid in shaping the wheel.Basically you just copy the shape of the band.Tim makes it look easy theirs a learning curve and its best done before miller time.Frank C.
Your are right Frank C., your finger and hands may get a little tired just take a little break a few moments look at the teeth and see how it is going, you almost get used to it after a while, I can go all the way around with out any discomfort. And It does come with a learning curve, practice with an bad band, everyone should have a few of those, take your time don't rush it. Every once and a while I will get the band hung on something and hit a tooth tip, you don't want to do that too often on the same band ;D
You will want a diamond tip dresser as well as a coarse flat stone to smooth out the wheel, the wheel does not want to have any nicks of high spots as this will reflect in the gullet and may cause premature band failure, a crack starter in the gullet. Shaping the wheel is the hardest part, and getting it right.
You will need a protractor to check the angle of the tooth. The grinding wheel has a 45° bevel ground on it then the careful radius to round out where the gullet follows. The back of the tooth touches the the outside flat on the wheel first then it follows along into the gullet and then a light kiss on the tooth face. Practice this with the grinder in the off position first. When grinding you don't need much force, just light.
The Band rest is, if I recall correctly, 10° to the 45° angle on the wheel, I could check this. Out of the picture, on the base of the grinder, I have a board with two stickers screwed to it acting as a guide to assist with keeping the band alined with the band rest. It is important to keep the band even with the band rest, parallel. The height of the rest is important, too, you want it just right for you.
For a test, if I was to try this for the first time I would mock up a wooden rest and give it a whirl. No cost but the time and a grinding wheel. I am using a standard 3/4" fine grit wheel, gray not one of the white or pink wheels, I hear they will wear quicker. I redress every 20 sharpening or so, you can tell when it need it. When shaping the wheel us a face shield and don't rush it, it will take an hour or so to get the rough shape and maybe another hour to fine tune the correct geometry to fit your band. You want the band to be in a relaxed state where it rest nicely on the rest at the grinder, different length bands will make this vary. The great thing about this is you get to tinker with it ;D
I have often wondered how accurate this method really is. A slight miss alignment will through the geometry off and the band will not perform at its best. I have thought about sending the band out after every 5 sharpening or so to be tuned true and set, like new, but I am not confident in how they will come back. As some of you have said you need to find a competent fellow to do this, in my case that fellow is me, I think. I think it is a reasonable idea to sent them out for a tune up, at the same time I wonder if the sharpening service will like having to adjust to your grind this may take too much out of your bands?
I am using a dual tooth setter from Suffolk Machine.
BTW, sharpening my bands is not a hobby, nor is sawing wood, I do enjoy it all very much though. Isn't it nice to find work which is enjoyable, as a hobby is.
panman, if I am not mistaken all grinders will sharpen all the teeth, otherwise you will end up with a tooth that is higher than the others and that will not do. The face of the tooth should be square to the tooth, something your new bands don't have, it takes a first sharpening to kiss the tooth and make this true. When the band come from the maker the set is set into the band and the face is not square to the tooth, it needs a light grinding, but we all just put the new band on and go for it for the first time, I do see an improvement in the band after the first sharpening. It is just slight though and sometimes I wonder if I am imagining it.
Tim
Thanks for the link to the video tim,Good machine you build there,I think sharpeners are like sawmills, they all do the job its just some are a little easier to use.
Sam
Great video Tim thanks. You also partly answered my question I think. Your method results in the back of the tooth getting touched last. automatic profilers by their design will do the face of the tooth last. Ive got a hankering to figure out whether this detail is significant.Yesterday I did a band on my profiler the usual way,got it real nice and sharp,put it on the mill and made a cut in a big cant I had set up for the test. 26" cut 12 feet long. Made a cut and timed it. Took band off put in profiler and adjusted so it only kissed back of tooth. Put back on and cut spd seemed to be 25% faster. will have to try this a few times to see if this is the case always. anyone else do this?
Incidentally I know a couple of sawyers who do grinds like you but they all feed the band the other way AND they dont have the stone profiled so they have to follow the tooth profile.Your way seems to me to be better of course Ive never tried doing it either way but I just might. Sure is fast.
clgr
The reason for touching the face of the tooth last is to remove the burr that's left when you sharpen the top of the tooth. That burr rolls off the top of the tooth and down in front of the face. Touching the face last takes off the burr.
cheers
John
dmulac, You got covered up in this hot topic, but anyway....Welcome to The Forestry Forum. As you will quickly find out, everyone has their own way and opinion, and will fiercely defend it..... 8)
BTW, Resharp does mine.