I was at my tree farm for a couple of days and was sad to see how much damage 6" of snow caused. I know/hope that most of them will not have any long term effects.
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Limbs broken from snow load
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0660.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0673.JPG)
Entire top broken out of this one
Up in Meridian, we lost some limbs from bigger trees. I didn't look at the smaller trees too close.
How do measure that sort of thing? I reckon the surest way will be counting the dead trees this summer. The only snow I want to see is in pictures or on vacation.
same thing here in va we had a little more snow too. ive been cleaning a patch of 6-10 acre va pine that the ice brought down. i have close to 3 or 4 loads of sawlogs and 4 or 5 loads of pulpwood stacked next to my prentice 110 at the deck and there are about 3 more loads of pulpwood laying in the woods i havent cut a standing tree down except for about 10 with broken tops all the rest was already down
Magicman
It that some kind of weak pine tree? We generally don't get snow damage up here in the north country, We have to have 1/2 inch of ice before we really start seeing anything.
Stonebroke
Wife and I were talking about the damage to our pines from that snow as well. I guess the pines down here just aren't designed to carry the weight of the snow. :-\
LOGDOG
Our Loblolly SYP is made for the South and probably eats grits. The limbs are brittle and just not designed for snow/ice load.
Here in the foothills of CA it seems that the trees above the snow line don't get much damage, but 20 minutes away the elevation is 2000 ft lower and when they get 6" of snow there they loose tons of trees. It's all oaks down there and where I'm at it's mixed conifer and oak. This year it seemed the wind caused more damage for me than the 2 ft of snow. I think that if the trees get regular snow they grow stronger IMO.
Those pines look like the results of some sopping wet snow or ice. Red pine gets a beating like that here at times. I was just out looking at some of my trees that I leave a tally sheet located inside a pill bottle. One was a red spruce that the weevils hit 3 years ago and killed the leader. I just measured it the other day and looked at that damage and you wouldn't even know the top was killed. A new shoot took over and growing straight as an arrow. The tree doubled it's size since 2006. Some of the older shoot lengths were over 3 feet a year. I have a mischievous black bear that likes to steal my pill bottles with tally sheets. He stole 3 I see, they may be under the snow, but probably with canine teeth marked through the bottles. :D One tree is an oak and he climbs up that tree every fall, claw marks up and down it and some broken limbs. He's gonna get some buck shot if he keeps being a cagey menace. :D
black bear tastes good! I bet he'd never do that again.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_redoak-clawed.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_redoak-clawed2.jpg)
Here's the bear works. ;D Acrobatic feller since that oak is just a sapling less than 5" at dbh.
I noticed that in the pic posted by Magicman the tree in the background is not damaged.
The issue with snow and ice load on pine is the needle length. Long needled pines like longleaf and slash are not adapted to snow, and snow or ice loads decimate them. That is why they do not grow north of the ice line. The snow and ice accumulate on the long needles and the weight is too much for the branches.
Loblolly has a relatively long needle, bit not as long as longleaf and slash. Therefore, it can persist farther north. However, above the Mason-Dixon line, loblolly's needles are not adapted for that snow load and red pine takes over. The needles of red pine are shorter than loblolly and it ranges much farther north. Then, further north you get jack pine with a really short, stout, twisted needle and you run into the spruces and firs with the very short spiky needles.
In the midwest, the natural pine is shortleaf with a needle about half the length of loblolly. Since loblolly grows much faster than shortleaf, it has been planted in northwest Arkansas and Missouri. However, the ice particularly takes its toll, and we get to see why loblolly is not naturally abundant in that region :).
Given a million years, nature balances everything our according to her plan. You can get away with planting loblolly too far north for a number of years and even decades, but eventually, in the natural scheme of things, adaptation and the lack of it takes over and returns things to the proper balance.
You cannot fool Mother Nature.
thank you for the explanation, I am learning all kinds of things I will never be able to use on FF but it is still extremely interesting.
Stonebroke
WDH, I like that explanation to. ;)
Must be nice to know stuff and be able to explain it too..... ;D :) :D
In addition to what Danny said, the proportion of latewood and also its quality is that counts regarding snow damage resistance. The latewood is denser than that formed early in the season earlywood due to the fact cells of latewood are very thick-walled and with very small cell cavities, while those formed first in the season have thin walls and large cell cavities. The strength is in the walls, not the cavities. Hence the greater the proportion of latewood the greater the density and strength. Most of the pines tend to create a big share of earlywood, especially faster growing species in rainy regions. They are not likely to bear snow and ice load, therefore would easily break
The southern pines are denser than the northern pines Toni, for that very reason, more latewood. ;)
Quote from: stonebroke on February 20, 2010, 08:49:26 PM
Magicman
It that some kind of weak pine tree? We generally don't get snow damage up here in the north country, We have to have 1/2 inch of ice before we really start seeing anything.
Stonebroke
When you get that kind of snow every winter (and on multiple occasions each winter), the weak links are taken care of before they are big enough to be a significant loss.
Yes, you have to think in terms of eons when you deal with trees.
Here in South Central Virginia, we are outside of the native range of loblolly, but it is now widely planted. Snow and ice are a concern in its cultivation and there are some things that can be done to minimize its impact. First, the family of trees that one chooses to plant must come into play. Historically, I have planted families that were cultivated by the Department of Forestry here. The trees have been selected to be suitable in this environment. They generally have a smaller crown ratio than their southern cousins. With that, you may give up a little bit of growth, but it is much more hardy to ice and snow.
Secondly, I will not thin as heavily here as folks do further south. My typical thinning at age 14-15l leaves aound 85 square feet of basal area and 240 trees per acre. The residual trees provide some support to their neighbors. If you are familiar with ice damage, it tends to be a domino effect. Once a hole gets started it continues to grow outward. Further south, folks will thin more heavily than that.
Individual limb breakage is not of much concern. Trees are pretty hardy and will recover. Terminal breakage can be more of an issue. You may end up with some cull in your sawlog class. Around here most stands have been impacted by ice during some part of their rotation. You can find a dogleg in many individual trees.
From a damage standpoint, trees are most susceptible about 18 months post thin / fertilization. They have had time to add needles, but the diameter has not increased significantly. Ice can cause substantial damage in these stands.
Wudman
where does ponderosa pine fall in for needle length?
A little on the shorter side. Middlin'.
How about Eastern white pine
Stonebroke
White pine is quite a bit shorter than red pine. I know the range maps shows red pine grows all over New Brunswick, but that's not true as it's natural range follows red clay soil and red sandy clay soils here. Where I live it's only present because it was planted. We also have frequent ice storms in my area. Up along the Tobique watershed where red pine can be found wild there is rarely ice storms and the soil is red clay and some sandy clay glacial till. White pine grows everywhere, even bog edges.