If the subject line sounds familiar, it's because it's the subject of a thread started by Bibbyman back in 2003. The original thread is here: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,3699.0.html
Sawyer Mary had it easy on that job, the log was only 25' long. I've got a job coming up this weekend where the customer wants a couple of 30' 4"x16" beams.
Once you've created full length flats on two adjacent sides, the cut-wedge-back-lift-roll-drop-cut process seems straight forward enough. Though at 30', there will be times when the center of the beam will be outside the span of the toe-rollers, which will add a complicating factor.
My question relates to the process of creating the flat sides.
In Bibbyman's example, if you've got bark down on the bed of the saw, you're able to saw out the end of the log. But I can think of lots of reasons why it may not always work out this way, especially with a 30' log. In this case you reach the end of the head travel range, the blade is still in the log, and you can't really roll the log on the toe rollers. You need to take the partial slab you just cut off the log.
One solution would be to back the head up just a foot or two, and cut the slab free at the end of the kerf with a chainsaw. This sounds like it will work, and it was what I was planning on doing until I read this post from Dan_Shade: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,41111.msg593493.html#msg593493
I want to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly. I think Dan is saying that as you approach the end of the mill, you hit the head up lever, and exit the log by climbing out of it. And, I assume, that you don't tear the blade off in the process. Have I got that right? Will this work reliably? Are there any tricks to this? It certainly sounds a lot quicker than stopping the head, backing it up, and firing up the chainsaw.
Any other suggestions for cutting 30' beams on a 20' mill would be appreciated as well.
In addition to the two beams, the customer wants 300 1"x10"x12' boards. This is all from spruce trees damaged or brought down by the nasty storm that blew through the NYC area a few weeks ago. I believe all the material will be used for a barn restoration project. I'll post a report when it's all done, which may not be for a while.
Thanks,
Peter
Do you have plastic wedges to separate the kerf, and a 3' section of broken blade to remove the sawdust from behind the blade?
I think you've done your homework. The only advice I can give is to go slow. Don't even expect to make any time. Getting the four flats is the hardest part. One thing you may have to let your customer know is that there is likely to be a slight discrepancy where one cut stops and the other cut starts up again.
Another suggestion, try to use logs that are super straight and not any bigger than it has to be.
Quote from: Magicman on April 06, 2010, 06:14:37 PM
Do you have plastic wedges to separate the kerf, and a 3' section of broken blade to remove the sawdust from behind the blade?
I assume that wooden wedges will work as well as plastic, but other than that, check, and check.
I would want some kind of forklift or something to support the end of the log if I was cutting 30' timbers. Otherwise, like Bibby said, don't expect to do is quickly. A challenge like that can be fun, depending on your customer :D
I've done long logs twice, those long cants like to move :)
you understood what I meant, you can make the saw climb out of the cut. It is much easier to get the cant to roll back and forth after you have a flat face.
Just thinking..........Have you guys tried screwing a board to the log to get a flat surface? Then you just could shove (or pull) the log on through? I really don't know much about sawing , just seems like something I would try.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on April 06, 2010, 07:30:09 PM
I would want some kind of forklift or something to support the end of the log if I was cutting 30' timbers.
A homeowner with a forklift in Fairfield county Connecticut is fairly unlikely. :)
Quote from: Dan_Shade on April 06, 2010, 07:50:28 PM
I've done long logs twice, those long cants like to move :)
Twice!? And you've been sawing how long!? My third customer last weekend wanted 22' long beams out of a nasty long dead Hickory log, and now my fourth customer wants 30' beams. I feel like I've got a 'Kick Me' sign taped to my back.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on April 06, 2010, 07:50:28 PM
you understood what I meant, you can make the saw climb out of the cut. It is much easier to get the cant to roll back and forth after you have a flat face.
Last week I learned that backing the head without a lot of wedges is quite problematic. It won't be hard for climb cutting to prove itself as a better approach. I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks,
Peter
screwing a board to the log would work, but it would take time, and isn't really necessary :)
pnyberg, do you have a tractor or anything to move the beams? they will be very heavy and difficult to move if you don't have a loader or forklift to move them. Yeah, I've only done long logs twice, not to many barns left in this area :(
wedges and a crowbar are good to carry with you when sawing. I also took a broken band and added a handle to a short peice of it to help clean out the kerf if I need to back out of a cut.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on April 06, 2010, 09:00:09 PM
pnyberg, do you have a tractor or anything to move the beams? they will be very heavy and difficult to move if you don't have a loader or forklift to move them.
Well,
I have a tractor, but I don't see how that's going to help much since I don't have a trailer, and the customer lives 100 miles from me. If the customer has no equipment (which I suspect is the case) then we'll have to hope the logging arch can do the job.
--Peter
that will work, the timbers might get dinged up while rolling them off the mill....
Peter, As you have quickly found out, custom sawing offers challenges and rewards. You did your homework by digging up old threads and really learned from them. You are doing a super job and really getting your feet wet.....congratulations. You will make a very good sawyer....... 8)
You will need to support the end that extends beyond the mill or it will cause a deflection in the log when sawn. You are getting your feet wet with this one, so wear chest waders. I will take on over sized logs before I take on over length logs out in the field. If they bring the long logs to me then I have the forklift to assist in the milling. I would charge by the hour on a job like this. You may want to consider renting some equipment to help handle the log and beams if things start to get to be too much. There is a reason that long beams cost extra to buy, and to mill.
You might want to take a hi-lift jack with you as it will work for supporting the end of the log when it is not on the mill as backwoods sawyer said that extra weight will make the cant arch up in the middle if it is not supported. If you don't have equipment there you might want to take a come along with you as well to help in the pulling of the log.
Pete; When you get ready to cut your way out of the log, be sure to regulate
(slow down) your feed speed and go up slowly and you shouldn't have a problem.
Good luck.
Peter, the only time I would consider doing stuff that long is if it was tied in with a big job such as a whole barn and then only one or two pieces.What I would do is position the log to get max cut legnth at the end of the cut back off short dist. notch with axe or chainsaw and break off the slab.Nail say a 2x10 to the flat cut flip it and you can move it around cut that whole slab off,chalk up any overhang.Frank C.
when milling longer logs i raise the blade the last foot and cut right out the log. Then turn the log and do the same on the other 3 sides. Next raise your toe boards up swing the last log support out of the way and push the log up to the last solid support keeping the radius of your up cut back about an inch and lower your toe boards. Now make two more cuts the same as before after indexing the log raise the log and push up to the radius again .Make tow more cuts and repeat until the log is cut. I try to cut the large end of the log first to get rid of the most weight you will also need to support the far end so the timber is flat. We have cut up to 60feet using this method.
I've sawn several overlength timbers on my LT40HD. It's been my experience that you can saw a timber that's about 5 feet more than the "official" length of the mill before you start to have problems with ends sagging and lifting the center of the timber. Even then, it's a good idea to cut yourself a block that will sit on top of the hydraulic box and be exactly level with your log supports. If you want to go longer, you'll need to have some horses that you can shim to support the overhanging ends.
I cut the slabs and flitches as far as I can and then back the saw up and cut off the slab/flitch with a chainsaw. I'll sometimes cut down to about 1/8" above the cut and then use a hand saw to finish the cut so as not to score the beam. A Japanese-style pruning saw works great.
Everything you do with overlength timbers takes longer. The slabs have to be bucked to make handling easier, the flitches have to get good recovery when you edge them. The log is harder to load and unload, etc., etc. My price per board foot goes up for every foot over 20' (that's when I'm sawing my own logs). When the length goes over 26' there's a big jump in price.
I used to saw the occasional 25' timber on my 21' mill. Last year I got a job with dozen's of 22 and 25 footers, so I bought a 6' extension to bring my length up to 27'. I still had to saw a couple of 29 and 31 footers for that job. This year I just got a contract that includes 40 - 4x12x30', so ... I just ordered another 6' extension to give me 33' of mill. And guess what? I'm going to have to saw a couple of 34 footers for that job. Don't seem to matter how far you go, someone will want something longer.
A few thoughts:to avoid having to chainsaw off or rise up at end of (1st) cut I would aim to take a lighter slab,one that WILL run out just before end of mill.If this is problematic, and band still in log at end of cut, you really dont need much room to chainsaw down and meet cut. An inch is plenty, and the band will usually back up that far(stopped of course) before becoming jammed by sawdust. I suppose some might worry about contacting band with chain--could also use a watchamacallit hand hoop saw. I too have only done a few beams using this general methodology but that is what I did after a few nondiscussable false starts...worked ok.
By the time I showed up for the job last Saturday, the customer had reconsidered, and decided against trying to saw 30' breams. I'm off the hook for now, but I will have to figure out how to do this sooner or later.
Thanks to everyone for tips on how to do this.
--Peter
Well it took well over a year, but today without warning a customer asked for a 22' long 8x8. I used the technique advocated by Dan_Shade of exiting the cut by rising out of the top of the log. I was nervous, but it worked with no problems at all.
Thanks to all for your advice.
--Peter
Congratulations on your success. smiley_thumbsup In 10 years it hasn't happened to me yet, but the time is coming. ;D
I am set up to cut 44' long and the number of times that I have to cut 45' timbers would make you cry. If they would order more than a few of them I would hook up the other 12' ext.
I know of another timber framer that has sawn over 50' on a standard length LT40. I did hear he recently bought an LT50 with a 24' BX, however. :D
The long timbers I had to saw were 47'-3", or just over two feet longer than the capacity of our mill. I sawed as far as I could, and drove a chisel pointed sticker into the cut about two feet back from the band. I'd then back up a little, and cut the board or slab off with the electric chainsaw. By wedging the board up with the sticker, there is some tension in the board at the cut, so if you go slow with the chainsaw, it will break off the last 1/8" and not cut into the timber. Once I had sawn down as far as I wanted, I'd flip 180° and saw to my final dimension. I could then slide the timber on a sawn surface back about three feet and cut off the block on the end. I'd flip back 180° and saw the other block, then slide it back to the starting position, and roll it up 90° and repeat the process.
This is one of the 47 footers that has just been slid back to cut the blocks off:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/1621/DSC_0962.JPG)
Even with 45' of capacity, there's always one (or eleven) timbers that are too big. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/1621/DSC_0957.JPG)
I like that picture. Almost as much as a big skidder with a big twitch of logs behind it.
Me, I would tackle that with a chainsaw mill...
Had a guy approach me once about doing a forty foot sailboat mast...would have been happy to do it but told him he would have to buy me twenty five feet of bed extension...lol...the one advantage of the lt-15....
Has anyone laid a roller bed on top of the saw bed of their mizer to ease the movement of the cant when cutting a length beyond the capacity of their mill? just curious.
I lift the cant up with a pry bar and slide a piece of 2 inch pipe under it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20959/oversize_timbers_004.JPG)
pnyberg, thanks for the thread. I've seen other threads about cutting longer than the mill. They seemed to be an awful lot of hassle. I've seen the way my blade will dive on occasion and I'll increase the coolant and bumping the head height to regain control, till I'm out of a cut. If I don't it will smoke. What I never noticed in other threads is how Dan Shade will rise out of a cut. Makes total sense to me. Thanks to Dan Shade also.