Looking at a used woodmizer LT40 Super. How do I make sure there aren't any liens or anything when there is no title? Hate to fork out many $$$ and then have some banker come looking for it :(.
Get the serial number and call WM ,they can tell you a lot about the machine!
You should also have the seller write out a sales slip.
It should state on the sales slip that there are no leins on the machine as well as the V.I.N., and the mill description!
chuck is right . bill of sale is the way to go on things that dont have a title. notarized if at all possible.if you are financing it thru a bank they can tell you if it has a lein against it. in oklahoma equipment with leins have to be registered by the bank when money is borrowed.pc
Your bank should provide you with a bill of sale, handle the notarizing and everything. I know that mine would, whether I was borrowing or not.
In the state of Illinois many lenders will file a "UCC lien" when there is no title. I would get the serial number and also the owners name (guy selling & the one registered with Woodmizer) and then do a UCC search. If you are getting a loan, ask your lender to do the search.
Add this to your bill of sale....
The sale is subject to the following conditions and representations:
Seller warrants to Buyer that Seller has good and marketable ownership rights to said
property, full authority to sell and transfer said property, and that said property is sold
free of all liens, encumbrances, liabilities, and adverse claims of every nature and
description whatsoever.
Just my 2 cents....
Thank you guys, that is all very helpful. Unfortunately this deal has fallen through. I was originally looking for an LT15, watching craigslist. Well, I found a very vague ad for a "WM LT40 with hydrualics, only 74 hours. Best offer over $20,000" Well, is it a 40 hydrualic, super hydrualic, gas, diesel??? So I call the fella, he is as vague as the ad,except he says it has the gas engine, 24 horse he thinks. He paid someone else to operate it, he never touched it himself. Well I had just worked a 15 hour day so I was feeling a little vague myself. I told him I would like to come have a look at it. He said that his son was delivering it to his warehouse in Duluth the next day, I could come look at it then. Well, I figured I'd go have a look and I could ID what exactly it was and determine if it was a good price or not. So, the next day, I rise early call the owner to make sure the mill made it there, he said he hadn't got ahold of his son but was sure he made it in. So, I load up the family and drive the 100 miles to duluth and upon arrival give the fella a call. He asks if I got his message. Umm, no I didn't. "Our road to our property was washed out, my son couldn't get to the mill." :( Oh well, stuff happens, I can let that go. Anyhow, this phone consversation he has way more info. It's an 06 Super Hydrualic, and it has a Kubota diesel, not the gas. Every option available that year, Accuset 2, Debarker, Sharpener and Setter with it, all extra parts he had from his fleet of 5 of these mills he had. Extra debarker etc. I told him I was out of my league, I thought it was a gas engine , my best offer over 20K was going to be 21K if I liked the machine, and I realize this unit is worth waayyy more than that. He replied he had a fella offer him 32,500 for it but he couldn't get the money right away. I told him I couldn't even come close to that(I started out looking for an LT15 for cryin out loud) Well, he wants to know what can I offer? Well, I have a pretty good handle on what this thing is worth, I've been studying the woodmizer catalog like crazy lately, all the extras with it. All I can do is $25K (I know I am stretching my limits financially here) Well he would talk to the guy from Wisconsin and see if he was going to come up with the cash or not. He would call me back. OK, so I took the family out to do some fun things in town, the day wasn't wasted. The next day, I waited half the day for his call, finally called him. He was sorry he hadn't reached me, his warehouse had gotten flooded with 6" of water the night before, the duluth storm drain backed up in some flash flooding.(They got around 4" of rain- the mill wasn't in there luckily) But, the Wisconsin fella can't get money for a week or 2, if I can get him the $25K the mill is mine. But he needs to get it done with now (this is on Sunday), can I wire him a down payment of $500? And he needs the full payment in cash, because his bank is in Wisconsin and they put a hold on checks from out of state banks:o I haven't even seen this thing yet. I said why don't I run down there quick, look at it, I'll give you a down payment if you can give me a reciept. (I'm getting a little suspicious when he wants me to wire him cash,and why won't a cashiers check work??) Well, he'd call me as soon as his son got it there. I had only a narrow time frame, I had to be back in Grand Rapids at 6pm. Well, he never called, I understood he had a full plate that day but he seemed to be in a rush to get this all done. Well I never heard back from him, so the next day I was Johnny on the spot calling the bank right at 9, get everything approved, making a lot of phone calls to get insurance for it, etc. Ok, everything is in order, except I need a serial # from the mill for the loan. I call the owner several times, finally get ahold of him. He will call me with the serial# in a few minutes. OK, after 2 hours I call him back- I'm at work, I don't have unlimited time to wait around for a phone call. :( Oh, sorry, he says, I'm at the parts store right now, I'll run back and get that number for you and call right back. No prob, I think. I talk to my foreman, he tells me I can get off early enough to get the loan squared away and go to duluth to look at the mill. That's good, I usually can't get off early like that. I got off at 1:30, drove home and waited for the phone call. It doesn't come. I try him a few times, no answer. I'm starting to get a little frustrated, I've got all my ducks in a row because he was in a rush to get this done and now I'm sitting at home waiting for his call :(. Well, finally I got ahold of him about 4:00, he had left his cell phone in his son's car and his son left. OK, honest mistake. I still need the serial#!!! He says he'll call me back with it, 45 minutes tops. OK, I'm not going to make it to the bank now, and I don't want to drive to Duluth to look at it and not be able to pick it up now. He's fine with that, he'll call me. So I wait, and I wait..... Finally I went outside and started clearing some brush with the skid steer to vent a little. Come in about 10, ask my wife if he called.. Nope. So I go to bed mad. Got up this morning mad. Tried to call him 3 times. No answer. Now I'm really mad. He was the one in the big rush to get this done, and he can't even return my phone calls >:( >:( Finally I left him a message that my offer just dropped back to $21K, I'm sick of wasting my time, you can sell it to somebody else for all I care. call me back or don't, whatever, I am mad and stressed beyond caring at this point. So, I haven't heard from him, no surprise there. This was a very frustrating experience, I was very excited to own this mill, scared of how much $$ I was laying out, lots of emotions, I knew I would have to make some dough with it to pay for it. I don't even know if it exists for certain!!! What a rollercoaster ride :) Sorry this got so long, I just found an LT15 on craigslist to call on. Back at square one ::)
You should go to your nearest WM dealer and just purchase a mill with the funding that your bank has approved for this non existant mill. I am sure you could actually do this over the phone with WM to get the serial number before you make the trip. WM has some awesome deals right now....... New mill.... warranty..... what more could you ask for..... if its used you are after I am sure WM could line you up with one of them too..... ;D
That's kind of what I was thinking, I know Woodmizer returns their phone calls.
it sounds to me like you was almost snookered. rule#1 if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. rule#2 revert to rule#1. maybe the sn was 0000oooo.... pc
Do you have his phone no.? I would like to hunt him down
lazerdan,
i got some pent up anger issues with the guys that stole my saws that i could send with you to give him.pc
barbender, What a run around. If i was betting, the saw would be hot. He and his friends proably had someone elses in mind to sell to you. They proably couldnt get there hands on it at the time. Could be some of you sawyers on here hes trying to sell. Hope not.
I was at Wills in Mt Vernon, Mo monday and looked at a LT 28. Very nice saw and well built. I believe that they are selling it at a very reasonable price now. About $11700.00. Not sure what add ons it had. Good luck at finding a good deal. bg
i have some neighbors that have a wm 30 or 40 ,wm edger and wm resaw some gas and some electric and the whole deal could be bought for less than 21k . they are in ok though. 2 years ago a friend of mine ,fred, bought a wm lt40 and baker resaw with a sawdust blower system for 14k. the deals are out there look for honest ones. cookssaw's last magazine had 2 lt 40's in it for sale for 16k and 19k. dont be afraid of a used one cause from what i hear they hold up real well. pc
Ditto the used mizers. I can't speak for the other brands but I don't think you can wear out an lt40. Everything thats a normal wear item is easily replaceable or can be adjusted. I bought a used 95 manual mill with 4500 hours. Motor was tired but still usable. I adjusted the head to bunk spacing for the first time yesterday -7200 hours. Have a neighbor who has a 95 that was converted to 3 phase electric. has 17000 hours on it and is still run daily. Be patient, the good deals are out there..
I talked to the same guy with the mill. He told me it would not start as the mice got into the wiring. He said he was selling it because of heath reasons and that he had cancer and the doctor told him to sell it.
Yep, that is the same guy. I think he is legitimate, just too many irons in the fire maybe. Seriously, I hope he didn't pass away or something, he sure isn't answering my phone calls. There are more important issues in life than a mill sale for sure, I hope I'm not being too tough on him. This was a big deal for me though, this would've been the single biggest purchase I ever made.
As far as the used mills, I hear you guys, there are honest deals out there, and I know the Mizers don't really wear out. I'm still not sure what I'll do, I talked to Wisconsin WoodMizer today, they could bring an LT28 up to the North Star expo for me in September, they demo it at the show and I get free delivery. Plus they would do the training there. So, I'm thinking it over. I like the deals you can get on used stuff, but it seems like half the time it ends up being an adventure and waste of time. Maybe I'll just fine tune my homebrew mill and be content with it. Time will tell.
As I read your story, first thought popped into my head: too many excuses.
Second thought that popped into my head: the last year Wood-Mizer sold the Super with the Kubota diesel was 2004.
Sounds to me like this mill is a phantom mill.
Here's how I think about it. Good chance this is a good mill and you could get a great deal. But looks like you have to be patient and careful. Must be very careful if you're buying a used mill from someone who isn't exactly rock solid in his presentation style which seems to be this seller. There will be an explanation for all this behaviour which you can probably understand after you make contact and probably understand even more after you buy the mill and reflect on it a few more months (hint hint find out beforehand). Also you have to be careful about evaluating a used LT-40 if you haven't owned one before because it is a complicated machine full of details. Especially if the mill isn't running. Also even if you can get it running you may not want to before checking some things like the engine oil, the transmission fluid in the main drive bearing, etc. etc. Also it wouldn't be hard to ruin something or do something very dangerous starting up and running a mill by inexperienced operators.
My LT-40 super 2001 42Hp kubota has a VIN sticker on the main beam which you can see in the center of this photo. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21495/2822/avin.jpg)
I recommend asking for a photo of this, or copies of the original purchase receipt, or if nothing else for the VIN/Serial # from this sticker. I would absolutely call wood-mizer and verify that your seller is the owner of this mill. Also I would talk to WM about key things to check out on a used mill. WM is 100% helpful.
If you can get this far it would be great if you could find an LT-40 owner to go with you to evaluate and buy the mill. I'm sure many of us on the forum would be happy to help you make a list of key things on the mill to check out.
My diesel is great. I can saw for about 6-7 mill hours on a 5 gal tank of diesel.
good luck
Well, the patience part is where I came up short. ::) It wouldn't surprise me if the mill wasn't an 06, as Brucer suggested. I don't know these machines enough to know which year they had what motor. Woodmizer seems to go through enough engine suppliers. For what it is worth, from personal experience, I would have rather had a kubota than a cat diesel, which I think is a Perkins rebadged. That's from with experience construction equipment though. You fella's tell me, what's the best motor on these mills? I still don't know what I'll do. I could buy an LT15 and have it paid for, and just have it for personal use and a very occasional custom job. If I go with an LT28, I'd have to borrow money, and I would have to make money with it to justify the price. I don't know if I want to have to make money with an all manual mill. But, once I start looking at options and hydrualics, it's kind of all or nothing. (LT40 super) When I can't decide, I just wait.
mine has a honda but it aint a wm mill. i think that a lot of peoples preference on motors comes from what they have used a lot. maybe the motor isnt the most important part since it usually wouldnt cost too much to replace a kohler 25 when compared to the cost of a new mill. i think a 20 hp honda can be bought for less than 2000 and my mill new cost 6500. pc
BB you sound much like myself. When I can't make up my mind I usually pull back until the answer becomes clear....or what is commonly called "analysis paralysis". In pursuit of finding the perfect answer, we end up doing nothing which in my opinion worse than making the wrong answer. That being said, I like to follow the business philosophy of "fail fast, fail cheap" and move on to the next idea :-) This just means don't dump your life savings into something until you can confirm it's going to work out.
I've got a friend that has an LT15 and has been sawing for 7 years (evenings - part time). There are days when when he could justify a 30k LT40, but there are many days\weeks\months were he is glad he's only got an LT15 too.
I am sure you will find many on here that will tell you that going into business to pay for a piece of equipment is the wrong thing to do.
LT15 - keep it fun :-)
LT28 - Looking down the barrel of a payment each month :-(
doug,
i am with you on the double barrel payment book thing. dont do it if you can help it.
barbender,
a fella needs to have the justification for buying a mill. just saying i am gonna cut lumber isnt enough. having a market for the lumber or an end use in mind makes it a much more stable investment. most banks wont take payments in boards.i had in mind to use my own logs to saw for lumber for the addition to a house. the framing lumber alone would have cost just more than the mill i purchased. many fellas here have done this. the mill is now a income source for my farm. selling lumber and cants plus doing custom sawing.
another consideration has to be manual or automated. someone who isnt very mechanically able probably may not want many bells and whistles.less things to go haywire. for me , i am young enough to enjoy the work and am not really working for high production so a manual mill fits me pretty good. it was affordable enough that i could pay cash for it.
intrest is a little cheaper now but when i built my chicken farm at 10% intrest and 12 years on a $330,000 note you would pay the bank a total of $548,000 or so. i dont have to guess who was making more money.
these things and serveral others all must be considered so as not to wind up with a high priced paper weight.pc
Quote from: barbender on August 12, 2010, 01:40:11 PM
For what it is worth, from personal experience, I would have rather had a kubota than a cat diesel, which I think is a Perkins rebadged.
Yep, the "Cat" is a Perkins.
WM has been switching over to Yanmar diesels on their most recent mills. My 1982 John Deere tractor has a Yanmar diesel. It's had its share of abuse and it's still going strong.
Quote from: paul case on August 12, 2010, 07:33:56 PM
a fella needs to have the justification for buying a mill.
For many of us, that's true. But I know several people who spent $30k plus on a fancy boat without giving it a second thought. "Why'd I buy it? Because I wanted one." If you've got the dollars and get as much enjoyment from a sawmill, why not buy one for "fun".
I went for an LT-40 manual to do part time work, because I could afford one. When the "part-time" work got out of hand in less than a year, I borrowed the money to upgrade to a hydraulic mill. No problem borrowing the money -- I had a track record and I was able to show the bank that the mill would always be worth more than what I owed them. Paid the thing off in 20 months instead 60.
There are good mills out there at fair prices (like my original mill) but you have to do your homework -- and don't be afraid to walk away from one if you start to sense that something isn't quite right.
That's right, a lot of people buy a new car, truck , boat or whatever without thinking twice. It sure seems a 20 to 30 thousand dollar mill is a way better investment, it might make you money, big tax savings and it won't lose most of it's value in 10 years. There's quite a few nice low hour hydraulic mills under $20000 over on the Sawmill Exchange. Steve
My '98 WM Super is easily worth today what I paid for it almost 9 years ago. I recovered my "buying cost" the second year. I would not hesitate to consider buying a used mill. There is just not much to wear out or get out of whack and these can be replaced or adjusted. Manufacturer's support is awesome.
Much of my success is due to the Super. I got many of my customers because I could easily handle logs that other mills couldn't. Good customers are repeat customers. At my present sawing rate, I will exceed One Million BF during my 10th year.
Quote from: ladylake on August 13, 2010, 08:01:35 AM
That's right, a lot of people buy a new car, truck , boat or whatever without thinking twice. It sure seems a 20 to 30 thousand dollar mill is a way better investment, it might make you money, big tax savings and it won't lose most of it's value in 10 years. There's quite a few nice low hour hydraulic mills under $20000 over on the Sawmill Exchange. Steve
Quote from: paul case on August 12, 2010, 07:33:56 PM
a fella needs to have the justification for buying a mill.
For many of us, that's true. But I know several people who spent $30k plus on a fancy boat without giving it a second thought. "Why'd I buy it? Because I wanted one." If you've got the dollars and get as much enjoyment from a sawmill, why not buy one for "fun".
I went for an LT-40 manual to do part time work, because I could afford one. When the "part-time" work got out of hand in less than a year, I borrowed the money to upgrade to a hydraulic mill. No problem borrowing the money -- I had a track record and I was able to show the bank that the mill would always be worth more than what I owed them. Paid the thing off in 20 months instead 60.
There are good mills out there at fair prices (like my original mill) but you have to do your homework -- and don't be afraid to walk away from one if you start to sense that something isn't quite right.
[/quote]
kudos guys i see your point. dont get me wrong i am glad that some folks buy new cars and new mills and such. that way there are some good used ones for folks like me to buy. barbender said something to the effect that he was borowing for it and it would have him far extended on his finances so my advice is try not to sink the boat before you even get it to the water. pc
Barbender, you brought up a good point for me, checking to make sure there are no liens on the mill you are trying to purchase, never even crossed my mind. I just made a 13hr road trip to look at a supposedly new Timberking 1600 with less than 100hrs on it. A picture would not have revealed the damage on the mill and after 3 phone calls to the owner nothing was ever mentioned about any damage. I looked over the mill and questioned all damage done to the mill and then cut 2 boards on it. The band was super dull and produced wavy faced boards. The owner had new bands but never offered to change blades so I walked away. I have been looking for a good used mill for over 4yrs and refuse to spend $10-16,000 on scrap metal. Good luck on your search and don't be too impatient, make sure it is what you want!
I can keep sawing away on the homebrew mill, that's ok. The main reason I was going to go for this WM was I was reasonably certain it would pay for itself after I got the word out that I had a mill, and if it wasn't paying for itself I could resell it for at least what I paid for it. I had the money to make the payments on it just sitting there doing nothing for about a year, after that it would've been a problem. I still think it would've been a decent deal had it worked out (and the mill condition was as advertised) I must have made the guy good and mad, he never has called me (I did tell him not to bother ::)) I think someone else must have offered him more money and he took it, otherwise, if he wanted to sell it so bad I would think he would still call when he knows I had the money waiting. Oh well, I'll keep watching and if one falls in my lap so be it.
Keep watching the "For Sale" below and "Sawmill Exchange" is another option.
Yep, I've been watching WoodMizer's site for used mills I like too. If I buy one, it will either be an LT15 because they are affordable, if I spend more than that it will be on something with hydrualics. I like the LT28 because of the long cutting length (not the 16' or whatever the LT30s were) but I would be like gator gar, building hydrualics to add on after a couple of months. I'd don't have a lot of spare time for that stuff right now, I'd rather just get something that is ready to go.
Lots of good used floating around down south, the romance of a mill has worn off since the hurricane recovery rush. I just heard of a Lt40 yesterday for about 14K
first, before I forget... hello fellow wood guys:P awesome and extremely helpful forum! Okay so, im not really in the market for a bigger better sawmill but stumbled across an LT40 super but I haven't went back to take a 2nd look yet. hes asking $15,000. Im guestimating that its either a 96 or 97. it doesn't have setworks or the bored return thingy. is there anyway to tell if the frame is the newer stronger frame other than knowing the year? has been sitting a 1/4 of the way out of a storage container for about 2 years and has the operators box covered with 2 tarp like covers. would I still be looking at possible electronic problems or no?
all I know about the saw now-
Faded paint and minimal wear if any. woodmizer LT40 super HD 40 hp lombardini diesel 880.2 original hours with what may be upgraded blade guilds. Manual clutch. the man says it will be running and cutting logs for $15,000. in my mind "it may be cutting and all's good but I need 2,000 or 3,000 dollars play just in case something's wrong that I cant see right away. so I was thinking of offering 12,500 and climbing. I could do 13,500 if there is no major issues that a 16 year old kid with the mindset of a 60 year old tinkerer cant fix! Called WM and they said a LT40 super 97 with 880 hrs is between 15,500 and 18,500. Anything to help before I go back and look at it would be much appreciated! Please and thank you! :D
It could be that you have to clean up electrical contacts and rusty surfaces, but if it functioned all right when put into storage it should still be running fine. I don't think you would have to put too much elbow grease into it. It was right around '97 when WM first started putting the two-plain clamps on the LT40 and higher# mills. If it is the later model clamp the frame is likely the more robust one as well. A friend of mine has a '97 mill with 12,000+ hours so they do last a very long time.
Buying such machine - or inspiring to do so- at age 16 is really cool.
Best of luck.
GD
97 was the year for frame changes and the changeover from the old flap type clamp to the hydraulic 2 plane clamp. Get the serial number and call woodmizer. They can tell you exactly what the build status was. BTW, the 2 plane clamp is highly desirable. The heavier frame is nice, but the frame was pretty robust to start with. With decent care, the lombardini appears to be good good for something like 5000 hrs. The only other real expensive part would be the setworks, if bad, it's easy to bypass and run in the manual mode.
Awesome, thank you guys!
just got off the phone with WM and Rodney told me that the "1997 LT40 super hd is actually a 96 because it has the old frame and old flat style clamp, also only has one HD pump instead of 2... AND then he says no set works would work...they may but I would be taking a risk. sooo after that conversation I ask for archi to give me prices on used mills. here's what I got.
96 LT40 super hd- 15,100 to 17,500-----(all 96 were old frame, 1 pump, no retrofit setworks at all.
97 LT40 super hd- 15,600 to 18,100-----(all 97 mills between 1/1/97 to 3/1/97 were actual 96 mills, not 97. from 3/2/97 to 12/31/97 were the actual 97s with the 2 pumps(faster hydraulics), new frame, bigger up/down and travel motors and setwork compatible)
98 LT40 super hd- 18,600 to 21,500-----these mills are compatible with setworks and have all the revisions. 1998 LT40 supers are the ones you want.
I know that was confusing but it explains a lot.
so for the "1997" that is actually a 1996 LT40 super HD is technically worth $15,100 to me. but I don't do retail. so im going to start at $11,000 and go from there. will keep you guys posted!
just out of curiosity why would they call it a super HD for almost 2 years if it was the exact same thing as the normal LT40 hd????????????????????
well gentlemen, this is what I ended up with. LT40 super hydraulic '98 model with 2 plane clamp and lombardini 40hp diesel it runs so well you wouldnt notice the 3,911 hrs unless you looked on the meter. I did over pay ($17,000), but it was well worth it! everything has been maintained so it only needed a small number of parts/belts. if you find a fully hydraulic WM with diesel and 2 plane clamp under $20,000, jump on it. if you guys have any thoughts on the motor or mill I would love advice and knowledge :) :) :)
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Way to go...
Look forward to seeing some logs getting turned into sawdust and boards. 8)
sawingisfun22,lucky you. Have fun!!
I was looking at the LT28 new. About $15,000 with the extras I wanted. Then I saw a craiglist ad for a used LT40 manual. I went up to look at it last weekend. about 600 miles round trip. Towed like it wasn't there. I brought it home after running a log through it. It's a 2001 with the log package. 25hp Kohler. New battery. A slew of extra blades. Only 554 hours on it. 10K out the door.
As for complicated to run, not really. Didn't get a manual. But Woodmizer sent an e-copy of the correct manual 10 minutes after I requested it. Registered it and am waiting for a "free" new owners package for buying a used mill. Don't know what it is but I am impressed with WM.
Now I just have to go out to the property and grab some logs and fire it up.
Quote from: gimpy on August 12, 2014, 09:34:40 PM
I was looking at the LT28 new. About $15,000 with the extras I wanted. Then I saw a craiglist ad for a used LT40 manual. I went up to look at it last weekend. about 600 miles round trip. Towed like it wasn't there. I brought it home after running a log through it. It's a 2001 with the log package. 25hp Kohler. New battery. A slew of extra blades. Only 554 hours on it. 10K out the door.
As for complicated to run, not really. Didn't get a manual. But Woodmizer sent an e-copy of the correct manual 10 minutes after I requested it. Registered it and am waiting for a "free" new owners package for buying a used mill. Don't know what it is but I am impressed with WM.
Now I just have to go out to the property and grab some logs and fire it up.
Ahhhhhh! I'll sleep like a baby tonight. Good story!
A dream come true but you should be locked up for sawmill stealing. Surely it is a crime?? Wow, what a deal !!!
Quote from: Magicman on August 12, 2014, 09:50:57 PM
A dream come true but you should be locked up for sawmill stealing. Surely it is a crime?? Wow, what a deal !!!
'Ol Jealous! :D :D :D
Good things can still happen to good people. 8)
Quote from: Magicman on August 12, 2014, 10:00:05 PM
Good things can still happen to good people. 8)
You are exactly right my friend. :)
Funniest part of the trip was finding out the guy had my last name. And it's not Smith or Jones. Small world.