The Forestry Forum

Here at the cabin in the eastern end of Michigan's U.P., we started noticing the death of a Tamarack here and there, but didn't pay a huge attention to it. Last year we had several more die (a couple dozen) and we started to pay closer attention, but figured it was wet/dry stress problems.  This year almost every tree is effected (infected?) and clearly doomed. I now see, that I have a few trees down the road on my twenty acres that died this year as well. I have many Eastern Larch that are of pretty good size that as yet still look healthy but I think its only a matter of time.  After spending some time in the effected areas, I am sure this is a bug problem and doing a bit of research on the internet, I think the problem could be the eastern larch beetle.

Here are some photos. the trees leaf out as normal, then lose their needles early in the season and are dead. If you find a tree that looks to have normal foliage within the group, you find where the bark is already coming off to show what appears to be insect galleries and the little pin point sized what I am guessing are either entrance or exit holes.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC02390.JPG)

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will you be able to salvage and lumber or is it a total loss.?

That's sad, Jeff. One of my favorite trees when I lived in Maine. We had a huge one in our yard, 30" abh and over 100 ft. tall. It started to die about 15 years ago and my dad cut it.

Attached is a PDF file from the minnesota DNR website if you haven't seen it already. From your pictures it does look like the eastern larch beetle but this year we certainly have received more than our normal amount of rainfall.  

2or3 years ago it started happing around my place ive harvested some every year  the last three years. it sure gets light quick. you really notice it on the pulpwood check. i live in the middle of the U.P. near gulliver

A year ago this past spring, I clear cut a plantation of European Larch that was planted by the MN DNR in SE MN. They had some excellent growth rates in the 30 or so years since it was planted but the bugs had thinned it out so bad that the Buckthorn was taking over. And it was planted on level ground on top of a hill so it was not wet ground. 

So I am sure you are right in that pests are responsible for the deaths of your trees. The DNR forester on that job I cut said that was a problem with Larch or Tamarack in that there were too many pests that attack the trees.

Here are two pictures I took on that job. The first one shows how thin the stand had become.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Isinours-2.jpg)

This one shows a few that were on the edge of the hill they wanted left standing. There were some 15 inch dia trees in that stand but they sure had a lot of taper. 



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The tree with many names-- in Maine we called it Hack or Hackmatack. But we had special words for everything there. . . . . .

I'm not sure exactly what we should do yet. My brother-in-law and I will develop some sort of a plan of attack. He has much more effected here then I do. My trees are for the most part bigger, but more isolated from each other, where as Pete has some pretty pure stands as an over story.

I asked my friend up in Sault, Ontario when I was out that way and he gave me 2 or 3 bug names which escape me now, and the bug you suggest could be one of them. He was familiar with the problem as he is an entomologist with Forestry Canada. He's not that far from where Jeff's cabin is and frequently travels to Michigan.

Could you direct him to this thread? I would think the photos might be a pretty telling story.  I'm guessing we are going to have to implement some sort of salvage plan. On Pete's its worse as other then the tag alder, the larch is the prominent species. If we take that all out, what do we do then? We really don't want more tag alder.

Message sent, only don't expect expedience as he is often away from town.  :-\

in maine we call it european larch desiese   the story i heard was it came from europe with some hack ... larch....that was used for pillings at the cargo port in eastport. it has killed most of the hack up here

Larch saw fly has been responsible for most defoliation in my area, it comes and goes like the budworm. They look like green moth caterpillers in bunches. I've killed a few on a European larch a couple years back and never saw another. I don't see any bugs on my planted larch on the woodlot, thanks to a diverse species mix and no monoculture. Now we just have to increase the moose tags. ::)

Google Link (http://www.google.ca/images?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&q=larch+sawfly&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=fciSTMjGMMSclgfjvOSnCg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQsAQwAA&biw=1118&bih=593)

This is not a defoliation. Well, I suppose ultimately it is.

Yeah, I remember. I wasn't offering this insect as a diagnoses, just commenting as to what has been hitting ours back east.

Is it just me, or are way too many tree species going the way of the American Chestnut?

When we get these pests it seems to always be in the name of global commerce. Nobody has the forethought of possible ecological consequences. Then there becomes a campaign to save the trees with little hope of preventing the spread of the pest or the financial means to do a whole lot toward it. Then, after a period of time when all the studies are written and people whose career it is the write them find something else to write about, the focus is directed toward another pest which needs another study written to put on the shelf next to the last one.  ;)

Actually, the turn in conversation about this seems to be a bit out of place because in this instance, the larch beetle is a native North American Insect. It's been around a long time with outbreaks documented clear back to the late 1800's early 1900's and pretty wide spread.

Pretty good paper here from the Forest Service.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/fidls/elb/elb.pdf

So hasn't the larch sawfly Jeff, it's came and went in many cycles since the 1800's, yet it was introduced. But, as you observed this problem in your larch is not a defoliator and quite possibly native. I guess this thread is subject to all the many twists, conjecture, meandering and opinion that many take for the sake of participating. When do we talk food? :D

I don't know if there will be a satisfactory solution to the larch infestation your experiencing unless it involves  replacing larch with say black spruce. But, with budworm in the area that don't seem right either. Maybe it's one of them cycles and the larch will be renewed in a new generation on it's own. Seems it's shade intolerant however and if it's going to reseed it better be quick to get above the alders and weeds. The odds are probably black spruce is the best solution, something deer won't eat and budworm may overlook until it passes it's cycle before it gets to pole size. And will survive in alder cover to possibly benefit in some way if alder leaf beetle hammer the alder canopy, but allow enough alder to provide nitrogen to the spruce. We have had budworm here and yet we reforest with spruce, and if memory serves, budworm will take fir over spruce sometimes.

There sure are a lot of Larch, from where SD lives all the way to Alaska (not sure if they're all the same species) but I hope there at least are areas where the bugs don't get them. It sure would be a shame to lose it-- the north parts of Canada and Alaska can't boast of too many species to begin with, and Larch is a major part of the wilderness up there. Even in Maine I remember seeing them in droves once you got north of Route 2-- on a fall day you could drive up to Anson or Athens or Dover Foxcroft and see thousands of young to older Hackmatacks turning yellow to drop their needles. I'd hate to think of losing them all.

I hate the thought of losing just mine. :-\   I think I have a picture of one of the mature ones on here somewhere. I'll look

The darn things can get quite big to with really long limbs. Some hard to thin them out of spruce with those big limbs, almost like a huge tumble weed. I was thinning plantation one time and they had seeded in. I musta cut two trailer loads of them on 3 acres before I just gave up and worked around them. I was using chain saw and thinning we do is brush saw work, or suppose to be. They get big fast in a plantation and the plantation was only 12 years old. :D

The dead ones I have so far are going to be tough. They stand mostly surrounded by other trees and there is not much of a hole for any of them to be felled, and they are the tallest trees pretty much other then some of the spruce aspen and some of the birch.

I felled one this week that I thought I could get down. Wrong, it hung in a dead birch limb I was convinced would have simply broke off. I got it down with the quad and winch. I even took a video of pulling it. First I reached in and clipped off the hinge, then slipped a cable around it and pulled from the other side of some trees.  I have a pic of hauling out one of the logs with my Logrite arch. I don't know how else I would get these individual trees out without it.



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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhDtRe5O-qg

Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 17, 2010, 09:58:19 PM
The darn things can get quite big to with really long limbs. Some hard to thin them out of spruce with those big limbs, almost like a huge tumble weed. I was thinning plantation one time and they had seeded in. I musta cut two trailer loads of them on 3 acres before I just gave up and worked around them. I was using chain saw and thinning we do is brush saw work, or suppose to be. They get big fast in a plantation and the plantation was only 12 years old. :D

How big is the biggest one you've seen? I wish I knew the dimensions on the one my dad had, that I grew up under. I know it was over a hundred feet and was the tallest tree around for at least half a mile. In an area that was 90% woods.

my neighbor Lou has many over 20"dbh and hundred foot tall.

Quote from: Jeff on September 17, 2010, 10:51:30 PM
my neighbor Lou has many over 20"dbh and hundred foot tall.

Yes, that's the size of most of the big ones I saw in Maine. Ours was over 24", nice and straight and had massive (for a conifer) limbs reaching out for at least 20 ft. from the trunk.

I can't remember the specifics on the heights of any of the big ones I've seen, but I'm pretty sure it tops out around 80 feet as it doesn't get the height of red or white spruce. Sometimes it's deceptive on the  heights if your main stand is cedar or something that only grows about 60 feet. ;) The diameters that I have seen do approach 30 inches like the aspens and those long reaching branches most loggers hate. :D They seem to be bigger where there are settlements, out in the back country they are not so common because it's mostly shade tolerant species out there with the exception of white birch and aspen. Most aspen out there is road side or around wet areas that were logged. We have larger tamarack up here than in the south, one fellow was looking for some big ones from down south. Wasn't going to be paying much for the timber to make up the trucking so the deal died. He was going to use them for sewage systems I think. I don't think you can build a new house these days on a wooden cesspool sewage system, so it may have been down in northern NS. I guess the tamarack are mostly around the bogs out back. But still any thinning near boggy ground is mostly spruce, fir and cedar. Even on my land I introduced every tamarack there. Moose ravage the things. ::)

My dad used it for  truck bedding and other tough use application. I think they used to use it, along with hemlock, for railroad ties a lot, if I remember correctly.

Jeff's tamarack grows a bit straighter than here. A lot of ours is full of spiral grain, far worse it seems on old fields. It's a bit nicer in natural forest floor, don't know why. They have to grow fairly tight here to be anything to rave over. ;)

Jeff,

It looks like a tough job on salvaging just the larch, but it appears to be the primary objective. Can you take out some additional species along with the larch for a possible commercial sale and to make the access and falling easier?

Can a faller buncher get on the area or is it too wet? Have you been able to get in contact with Dr. Hyde yet and discuss your larch situation?

No contact with Dr. Hyde yet. I'll try again on Monday.

I think my ground is just to sensitive have a commercial logging done in there without changing it forever from what it has been, according to my neighbor, for all of his 80 some years and more.

You won't want that big equipment in there unless the ground freezes up well in winter. The trouble to, is I can't see the economics of it. With whomever you hired, they'd gut the place just to make it profitable for them to operate. There is a lot of stems but the average is on the small side. We aren't talking high value species either. Cedar, as long as it takes to grow to get to decent size never has been worth much compared to spruce. The black spruce is still pretty small, with a few scattered sizable ones, ones you are just beginning to get more growth due to diameter. However, the overall stand could benefit from a thinning at some point to release the maple and spruce somewhat. Jeff, how's the shoulders? Well, assuming your looking for some work. :D

That ground never freezes. To much organic action going on below. What ever needs done, I'll be the one doing it.

Yes, I thought that it was inoperable. Nature will have to take its course.

Quote from: snowstorm on September 16, 2010, 08:42:48 PMin maine we call it european larch desiese   the story i heard was it came from europe with some hack ... larch....that was used for pillings at the cargo port in eastport. it has killed most of the hack up here

I'm not so sure about that.  I know that when they originally brought the European larch over here they had a problem with continental vs. maritime seeds sources.  One (I can't remember which) did pretty bad over here while the other was fine.  It was a seed source issue that has since been worked out but I think European larch got a bad name in the process.

I don't think tamarack is headed the way of the chestnut.  It's a very fast growing tree on upland sites and does well on the wettest sites also.  It will stand more water than cedar, black spruce or black ash.  I think tag alder tolerates slightly more but not much more water than tamarack.

Unfortunately it has a variety of hosts that tend to kill entire stands.  As has been noted it's a cyclical thing.  It could also be one of those things that once you learn about it you start noticing more and more of it until you think the end is in sight for that species but in reality your perception has just widened.

Jeff it's too bad that you lost a bunch of big ones.  If it's any consolation I don't think that they tend to make it past 100 years in these parts. 

Talking of size I don't think I've seen one hit 90'.  100' is big and over 20" dbh is notable around here.  That's forest grown stuff on pretty wet ground.  On dry ground they can really take off.  I cored one this last spring that was 15" dbh and 32 years old, pretty phenomenal growth for the frozen north.

Clark

I don't agree with your assessment of white cedar not growing on sites that are very wet compared to tamarack. In my woods the really wet sites are dominated by cedar. I introduced tamarack to cedar sites that were cut because it's a fast growing tree. Those same sites have natural cedar growing back as well. I've seen areas that tamarack grew with the cedar and the tamarack are now stubs, the cedar will live there 3 times as long. I have cored a good many white cedar around 16 cm dbh on the real wet sites and they are between 140-180 years old. Shade tolerant trees are slow growers. Also, any bog, I mean with picture plants and sphagnum, over north are growing with black spruce and tamarack side by side in the moss. I have thinned boggy ground, because it was an island of land in the middle of a site, that had no tamarack, just black spruce and cedar. Now, tamarack will grow quicker than any species on those wet sites for sure. I have 8 year old tamarack on wet ground as tall as 14 year old black spruce on dryer ground. They are 14-18 feet tall. Also, my black ash are in those same wet places with the cedar and tamarack and very slow growing as well, not many amount to much in decades. Black ash will grow slow even on dry land. Also I don't have much alder, but I have willow to no end. We are talking about ground that would be growing just cattails and sedges if wetland trees and shrubs where not present. I call tamarack the tree that will grow on water, but that ain't exactly true now is it? ;)

Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 19, 2010, 02:40:30 AM
I don't agree with your assessment of white cedar not growing on sites that are very wet compared to tamarack. In my woods the really wet sites are dominated by cedar.

That's interesting Donk.  My observation comes while fishing and looking at these low areas that extend into the lake.  Invariably the black spruce, black ash and cedar will fade out and the tamarack will continue out towards the lake farther.  Maybe that is a regional difference?  Or I'm viewing something a little bit different than normal next to the lake?  In either case we're definitely splitting hairs!

Clark

Jeff,

My friend says it looks like dendroctonus simplex, or larch beetle.

What he says is: "Out here it acts as a secondary pest, knocking off stressed trees. Perhaps his trees were under stress from drought or high water table? That's what usually knocks them off!"

Jeff, I have  Forest Insect & Disease Leaflet # 175 he sent. It's 500 kb, so I can email it to you if you wish. Maybe it will come up in Google or on the USFA website if you prefer.

My friend is coming back east to his mom's. Her brother, his uncle, passed away yesterday. I knew him, he worked for father a few years back.

Yea, email it to me, or attach it to a post yourself if you can, because it comes in under the limit.

I should of, could of, seen this coming. Actually I did notice it clear back to this post in 2007, but did not give it the weight I should have.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,24810.msg354740.html#msg354740

Here are two pics of one of the effected trees back then, and a picture of one of the healthy ones, both from that original thread.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/property_8.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/property_7.jpg)

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Ok, I see now. You musta raised the limit from 250 kb or whatever it was. Here's the document.

Skimming through that leaflet I noticed they mentioned the larch beetle can sometimes be a secondary pest coming in after the trees have been hit by budworm or sawfly and defoliated somewhat causng stress to the trees as well. You've got budworm looming nearby, I did not notice any in the vicinity but they are up around the Soo and down along I75 a ways I noticed, giving the spruce a pounding.

I had big plans on doing a salvage harvest this summer, and getting all the logs sawed into beams, timbers and cants, but some medical issues this spring and then a pretty involved shoulder surgery pretty much trumped those plans. However, today I started on this project. I'm still only about 70% on the shoulder recovery I would estimate, but I've found I can start and run my new Stihl that Tammy and the kids got me for Christmas.  It sure do feel good to be at least a little bit productive. :)

I only dropped, trimmed and bucked about 6 trees today, It was a pretty good first workout, outside of PT. I don't feel I over-did, but I can still feel it. ;D At least a start eh?. I'm skidding them into the edge of the field with my atv and logrite arch. The only problem I have I think is that there are going to be a whole heck of a lot of logs and I have no easy way to pile them, but I'll figure something out.  :) The logs are in better shape then I thought they would be so far, they have degraded some, and some of the first to die may be to far gone, but the ones I have cut so far will definitely have some recovery.

Lynda came back and took a picture before her and Pete headed for home. She took a video while I was bucking some logs, then I set a camera up and videoed while I felled a couple smallish larch.  It's been a good day. :)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/jeff_first_larch.JPG)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/larch_stump.JPG)

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You maybe able to parbuckle them using skids and chain/ropes and the ATV like they would use a horse. Be careful not to roll them on yourself.  If you could use a couple standing trees as stops on the back of the wood pile, it would be safer. Make a trail out from the stops into the woods or if you have a couple big old spruce yard trees you can use as stops. Use the skids on the slope of the pile to gain mechanical advantage of a straight ramp without the bumps of the piled logs. Anchor the chains or ropes to the stops, run the ropes over the top of the pile to the log and wrap around the log ends. Throw the ropes back over the pile toward the stops and pass them between, tie to ATV hitch and roll them babies up the pile. Slide the ropes off the ends of the log. Repeat. Don't try to roll them up a steep pile, I don't know if your ATV's would have the weigh or power. Maybe if the winch was used and the ATV anchored.

Baby steps. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPrPCM9NkLI

Don't over do it, I don't wanna have to be cutting and piling logs next August. :D ;)

first it looked like an episode from ax men ;D

Good job, Boss.  Your shoulder is coming along nicely for you to be able to do that.

I had to play axmen once today. These trees are so dried out on top that they have very little momentum when they begin to fall, and to start out, I didn't have much of a place to start dropping them because they are so thick, so it takes very little to hang em.  The first one hung, then the second one hung trying to knock that one down, but that opened up the opportunity to drop a bigger tree to take them all on down to the ground. Fun! :)

Quote from: WDH on August 22, 2011, 09:02:51 PM
Good job, Boss.  Your shoulder is coming along nicely for you to be able to do that.

I've got a pretty good comfort zone now to work with. Hopefully just getting out and living will increase my range of motion, which has been my biggest limiting factor.  It's coming along.  :)

nice pics, be careful :)

Good job. best of luck with your recovery.

I always enjoy doing something like what you are doing. Just making the woods better and working the land. Deer will like all of the new growth that will come up. Any plans for the lumber,or just going to save it for later use? Good to see you working again. Using a chainsaw is work for your shoulder.

Best mental and physical recovery strategy there is . . . running a chain saw. Go easy and enjoy yourself. Nice pics and video.

Short Video clip to show what I've been doing the last couple days. Lots of work creating some skid trails for the arch and the quad just to get things started.  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONCcdx0i-wE

It is such a shame to see all those dead larch.  Reminds me of the dead hemlock in the North Georgia Mountains.

Its really sad.

Well, nature has a way of compensating.  100 years from now there will be a vibrant mature stand of something, maybe not larch.  In any case, the cycle will repeat itself again, and in a few centuries, the larch will probably be back. 

Jeff, was that behind the cabin where we walked or on your place?

Beetle killed SYP trees are what got me into the sawmill business.  Matter of fact, I guess beetle killed SYP trees is what is keeping me in business.  I saw hundreds each year for landowners just to keep them from going to waste.  They may not even know what they are going to do with the lumber.  They just have it sawn and stacked in the barn.

It was very depressing to see all of your trees dead or dying.   :-\

This is at the cabin.
My trees are more widely scattered, so I am hoping they all don't go down because for the most part they are much bigger, and far more inaccessible. I have had several attacked and killed that are going to just have to remain due to the difficulty to extract them.

I have used a 100+ feet of cable and a few blocks to long line them out.

good looking vids Jeff/  Glad to see you are able to get out to the woods and shake a little rust off 8) 8)  8) Are the Tamarack affected in the whole Lakes states region?  We used to cut it during the winter months, always brought a decent price, and winter logging was always best, as it like to grow in wet areas.

I watched it again with Pat, and recognized a bit more the second time.  You returned to the cabin from the East.   ;)

Quote from: Magicman on August 27, 2011, 10:43:03 PM
I have used a 100+ feet of cable and a few blocks to long line them out.

My woods is predominantly northern white cedar. Dense cedar. Scary dark even in the middle of the day  :). To begin with, there isn't anywhere to fell many of the trees let alone try to snake them out. The soil is mostly hydric, so sensitive to most any type of mechanical disturbance.


The Beetle is native to North America and is nothing new. We just happen to be the unlucky recipients of a local infestation.

http://threatsummary.forestthreats.org/threats/threatSummaryViewer.cfm?threatID=225

Quote from: Magicman on August 27, 2011, 11:01:32 PM


I watched it again with Pat, and recognized a bit more the second time.  You returned to the cabin from the East.   ;)

Yup. :)

I guess I mentioned it before, but Jeff has another looming threat from the spruce budworm. It isn't far away, I saw it at the Soo. That eats fir and spruce mostly, but can go for larch. The worms drop down from the upper crown on a silk thread.

I have a few places that ceder and hemlock grow. But my are some rocky. Would have a hard time not making a trail with rocks in them. I noticed your land is kinda flat too. I have alot of uneven spots on my land.Too bad about the tamarack.

If you have 9 minutes and 15 seconds to kill, my sister took some video clips today of my working on the Tamarack that I threw into a short video. I figure I am about 8 to 10% into the job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWfkpJCoU84

Nice job using the arch. I just hate to see your stumps cut so high.  I think they would get in your way with the other trees. But I suppose your shoulder has something to do with it.  ;D

Figures she would video the only high one. :D  I left that one high on purpose. I have several trees back and to the right of the photo that need to come out, but I have limited direction to fell them. I left this one high so I can drive the atv up against it, then run the winch out and winch the butts around on these trees to where I can get the arch over them and pointed in the direction they need to go to come out. I don't want to pull them tops first to keep from tearing stuff up, and if I fell them the other way, they will damage the young aspen stand we just thinned. There was a method to my madness. ;)

As of tonight, those trees are now down and out, and that high stump has been cut off just above grade. :) If you look between where I was cutting, and Lynda was filming, that used to have about 10-15 trees standing in it. I need to easily drive over the stumps, so they are low.

Just like reality TV. Just have to wonder how those cameras get around to all those "just right" places. :)

Good video of the process and how easy that logging is with the LogRite tools, even with the shoulder healing.

I lied. There are two other high stumps right now. Pete directed me to leave those high and there will be three more high ones on the opposite side of the stand. We cut grooves in the top of them with the saw then he puts his deer mineral on them. The deer end up eating the stumps right into the ground to get the mineral.  This is Pete's "Grow Em big Antler Grower' that he makes and sells. We've given quite a bit of the stuff away at the pig roasts.  :)

Nice job.  Too bad you weren't lots closer to me.  I have got quite a bit of demand for tammarack bull rails and trailer decking.  It lasts for years even untreated.

That's why the stump was high.  ;D   I really enjoyed the viedo. Never seen a ATV and logging arch working in the woods.

Only issue I have...

Chainsaw started first pull... BOTH times.  :D

Both of mine are 100% reliable, 3rd pull every time  :-\

But yeah, nice video of what you can do with small scale low impact logging. Hauling out some useful logs, with basic gear, and not making any huge mess.

Ian

Quote from: Jeff on September 07, 2011, 09:15:29 PM
We cut grooves in the top of them with the saw then he puts his deer mineral on them. The deer end up eating the stumps right into the ground to get the mineral.   :)

That is a great idea.  Way to get the deer out of the garden and actually do something useful to you while you help them help you become a better bone collector 8) 8) 8)  BTW, nice looking job, and looks like the shoulder repair is doing you well!  Looks like you are having fun!  Thanks for posting the vid.

The hardest part of this job, is keeping my "landing" clear. I have to pile things by hand, so that's tough PT. :D  I've actually got to do that again before any more felling or skidding as I am getting plugged up mu allotted area in the field again. It's a lot easier with two people to pile, but I don't expect any capable visitors for at least a couple days, and that's probably the reason why. :D

I think the rest of the afternoon, I'll put on the sprayer and go fertilize food plots and try to avoid the piling for a bit longer. :)

Quote from: Jeff on September 08, 2011, 12:33:14 PM


I think the rest of the afternoon, I'll put on the sprayer and go fertilize food plots and try to avoid the piling for a bit longer. :)

:D :D That's the spirit!! I always say, why do today what I can put off for tomorrow ;)  Just kidding.  I have a couple of handy brush pile makers that will work pretty well most of the time, (couple of teen-aged boys).  Maybe your ATV is stout enough to handle the brush if you fashioned a brush rake for the frunt, that you could mount to a snow plow, or the plow frame, (if you have one handy)? 

I also watched the right shoulder during the video.  You didn't reach much above your head with your right hand, but you used the shoulder well in several maneuvers.

Did you always start your chain saw with your left hand, or is this a result of the right shoulder injury / surgery?

I know that you want a perfect shoulder (who wouldn't), which your not gonna get, but, from my viewpoint, your shoulder looked great in the video.  Are you going to log this whole thing yourself for PT, or are you going to invite Burlkraft to enjoy in the fun?

I think Burlkraft is running scared from the last time. :D I'd love it if he came back soon though. ;)

I'm starting the saw left handed because I am gun shy of doing it with the right as of yet. I've had pull starts jerk back violently before, (not with the new saw so far) and I don't think that is something I am ready for. You can see in the video where I try to unhook the log from the arch with my right arm, but have to go to the left. I am definitely depending on the left to do the lions share yet, but there are no free rides for the right. It's pretty sore at night, but so far, raring to go with each new day.

Jeff-

I hate to bore others on a true Forestry thread who already know this stuff, but could you, or anyone else, give me a synopsis of what happens, in a business sense, to those trees you're felling.  Do you keep the lumber and get it cut into boards at a mill?  If so, what's your plan with the lumber?  Do you sell it to somebody who takes it to a larger market to the highest bidder?  Is the value of this lumber lessened by the larch beetle?  Do you haul it away yourself or does a sombody come and pick it up for a cost.  Where's the profit in this, or is it just good forestry practice to thin out these dying or dead trees, regardless of profitability?

Well, this may turn out to be one of those "dig a hole there."  "Now fill it in" type of scenarios. :) 

The dead tamarack has no market value. Our goal is to clean the slate so to speak. The standing trees quickly become a hazard. The tops break out and fall without notice. Right now, there is a lot of sound wood out there, but the uses for it are few and far between. This was a fast growing stand. I'll take a ruler out and a camera to show you just how fast, so any lumber is apt to be quite unstable.  What we are planning is to saw out large timbers, 4 by 6 6 by 6 and 6 by 8 to use to build a cabin some where. Why? We don't know. (dig a hole there)  Where? We don't know that either. :D   The small stuff will go to good use. One of our friends up here had a stroke this summer. He has a small sugar bush a few miles from here. All the small stuff will go towards his evaporator's fuel supply this next spring. 

The goal here I guess is to do something, because it can't do anything but make things better. :)

Doc, our tamarack out my way tends to get a spiral twist to the grain. You look at the leader and it looks like someone took a wet rag and twisted it. They call that spiral grain. The most I've ever seen tamarack sell for was $70 a cord, most times $50. Aspen is worth more than twice as much. And tamarack will grow fast, even on wetland. I planted some here and it was 6 years younger than spruce that was on better drained soil and it caught up with the height of the spruce already. I planted it for that reason as I hate places to be over taken by non-commercial shrubs like alder and willow and dogwoods. It's a tree that will practically grow on water. In fact actually, I have seen floating mossy islands in shallow lakes get tamarack on them. These islands are real small and usually anchored in shallow spots by heath shrubs like Kalmia and leatherleaf and labrador tea. I have caught a good many trout from the shade of these small islands. ;)

Is it no good for dimensional lumber?

Nobody here saws it, it goes to pulp and nobody wants a lot of it. Sometimes it's wide open and by next week deliveries could be shut off.

The other larch species, such as western larch is more valuable for dimension lumber and flooring. Any plantations I've seen were European and Japanese larches, and some are 40-50 years old now.

It was used in my fathers barn to support the floor of the haw mow above the cows. just slabbed on 2 sides.  Used a lot as firewood when I was a kid.  Needs to be used in a closed stove and not in a fireplace as it pops a lot when burning.
My mothers cousin wanted a tamarack coffin.  That way he could go thru hell a poppin. ;D

Here is one of the stumps to give you an idea of how fast the tamarack grew here. Recently, they had slowed right down. I count 40 years on this one.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03211.JPG)



It's getting pretty sparse out here....
And no Steve, I do bring it in at night.  ;)Do you miss it yet?

Oh, and thecfarm, thats not a stump. Its the butted off end of a log. ;D ;)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03212.JPG)

Sorry. I won't say nothing bad again about what you do. Until next time. ;D  I get a new saw and think I'm an expert.  :D

I'm just joshin ya with the stumps cause I don't wanna play the grits card. :D

I remember now, thecfarm brand grits.  ;D

I know what handling brush is like, one mild fall I cut and burnt old orchard trees and any nuisance shrubs. I would have 2 or 3 bomb fires on the go. The old trees were half dead and a lot of dry limbs. Then I planted yellow birch, while cherry also took root from seed. And I released a fare bit of spruce and fir on half the clearings.

On another note, the waxwings, blue jays and robins have been going after the mountain ash and wild blueberries like crazy.  :) The woods I have been in working have lots of mountain ash bushes in with the new regeneration. It's a 200 acre block and there will soon be 19 fellas whacking away. There are 10 there now on sections already marked. With 19 fellas they will cut about 60 acres a week. ;)

The Grits Card!

That will surely keep him in line  :D.

I learned a few things today.

Don't run over small cut off limbs and assume it is safe because they are laying flat. Especially if you have large lugged tires. I threw one straight in the air today, out the side and it turned in mid air and whooped my face shield.  Prior to that I had one tip up and smack me in the arm and about the head. Up until that point, I was causally skidding without my helmet and shield. No such thing as casual skidding. Even with an ATV.

Also, don't try to pull a gnarly top log, or any log for that matter, starting off with a turn, when you have trees or other logs  on top of the skid about to be pulled. That arch flipped in a second, and lifted the back corner of the quad when it did, but let go when the hitch released.  I have a 1 1/8" ball on the bike, and a 2" coupler. Glad for that, as it came apart without hurting anything.

I have a long ways to go at this, and I'm sure I'll be learning more stuff by accident, but I do know I'll have my safety gear on when it happens. :)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03223.JPG)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03222.JPG)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-vJGXjrwbQ

Jeff
Glad you are ok. Not a good feeling to see wheels in the air, but at least better if they are not the ATV.

be careful, its never good when any tires come off the ground :o

I'm thinking you grappled the log to far back with the arch that had bad sweep. The log flipped the cart by striking on one of the braces as the log went into a rotation spin. And grabbing by a top end ( it doesn't appear to be small end of the log) is like pulling a telephone pole with a single wheel on the but end. It will tend to roll around back there. I remember one guy from forest extension pushing this practice until several fellas spoke of experience of the but rolling around, especially bad if there is sweep in the log. With pronounced sweep in a log it will/can cause the log to rotate. It's not all that casual to just grab any old end of a log and pull, and look straight ahead thinking things can't go wrong. Watch them knarly ones, they have a mind of their own. ;)

One of the many things we lost with the death of the Tamarack. This photo of the stand that died was taken in the fall of 2005 from the back field



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC00999.jpg)

Yes, the morning sun really brings out the fall colors.  ;D

As I sit here in my bear blind and awkwardly try to turn my head to look to the west, I'm reminded how thankful I am that I was wearing my hardhat today. This morning I got caught up on all of my skidding, so after a short breather to check on the forestry forum, I went back and began to fell the next area of daed tamarak.  Many of these trees are already shedding top Li.bs and even whole tops.

Anyhow, probably a dozen trees into it, I reached what would be the largest and most difficult tree of the day. I notched it, inserted a couple wedges, then made my back cut. I piclef up my hammer a gave the first wedge a tunk, and then stepped back and watched the tree fall perfectly. I stood and admired the placement for 3 or 4 seconds before the widow maker hit me square on top of the head. It was probably 4 feet long and 2 inches in diameter. I straightened my helmet and went to limbing.

I didn.t give it much more thought until now because of the stiff neck. I would suspect the helmet system saved me from a pretty severe injury or worse.

Yeah for sure. I was laying a strip line in thinning about 3 weeks ago and it happened to cross through some dead white birch, nothing as big as your forearm. But a top came out of one from about 6 feet up and maybe 2" diameter. It was rotten and half soft, but I felt it for sure. Kinda seated the helmet a little fermer on the head, but no damage. Something like that on a shoulder blade would lay a good bruising for sure. Just the day before I steared clear of some bigger dead birch along the boundary. A lot heavier if a piece would come down.

Be careful in the dead stuff.  ;)

They don't call them widow makers for no reason  :o

Once again PPE saves another noggin  :o

A hardhat probably saved my life just like in your case.  Good thing that you were wearing your PPE.  So many times I see pictures of people running chainsaws in shorts with no shirt, shoes, or PPE of any kind.  I have heard that chainsaws are one of the primary causes for emergency room visits.

I learned my lesson I cut my left leg above my knee 10yrs ago with dads 034. I put all my ppe on before I walk out the house now. 

I knows what yous mean about them widow makers!  I was cutting a rather large and limby doug fir this summer, and one of the good sized limbs had broken from maybe 20 feet up or more, and came straight down on my head, I felt like I got pile driven into the ground a foot!  I almost blacked out, even with the hard hat on.  I didn't see the limb hanging, or I would have not stood where I did.  Shook it off and was able to keep going without any serious damage, good I had my full brim brain bucket on!  PPE is where it is at.  I am amazed that I lived through the early years when I was cutting my teeth in the woods.  PPE then?!? never heard of it.  Not even ear plugs for the McCulloch!  Just toilet paper stuffed in the ears.   Sure was nice when they invented those ear plug thingys! 

Lucky you Jeff. By the way,since being up there alone,I suppose you are calling Tammy every so often when you are cutting? I've never had that happened,YET. A few smalls ones bounced off a few times,but nothing of any size.

Tammy and my sister have a rule for me. No felling when I am here alone.  I still do, but limit it to what I consider simple falls, but don't tell them that.  ;D  I do call Tammy every day, but Pete and Lynda are here often and Tammy was here this past weekend.  Lou is also available when I need to get more trees down.  We are within radio contact distance.  Lou is worse then a mom with me for making sure I contact him.  If I go to my blind hunting, I have to call him when I get there. I have to call him when I get back to the cabin too.  He's been that way since I had the fall 3 or 4 years ago.   I accuse him of just wanting to be there first to see what I have in my pockets. ;)

It is always good to let somebody know where you are, you can never be too careful :)

Well, I think I am at about 80% as a guess on the removal of the dead larch. Since I am working all by myself it's been pretty slow going. I have learned one thing about this process, well several things actually, but the thing I was thinking about that dead, dry tamarack trees and the long jagged limbs are some nasty things. I'm thinking the saying what doesn't kill you makes you stronger fits when working with this stuff.  I've got cuts and scrapes and bruises all over me from working in and around it. I've been conked on the head once a couple weeks ago I think it was plus I've had at least three different incidents.  The first was limbing one of the bigger trees, and stepping on a branch that I though was flat on the ground, but really laying over a hole. The branch broke and when my foot dropped in, the stick tore through my boot, my jeans, and then stopped short of tearing into my leg, only bruising it. I had my chaps on when it happened too.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/boothole.jpg)

Then this week, I had something happen, that I really don't know what happened.  Somehow I must have created some sort of spring pole while skidding wood around a bend in my skid trail, then on another trip through somehow released it.  I didn't see it coming, or even where or how it came at me, but it hit me waist high, right at the belt. it snagged my leather belt and stopped me dead while the quad's momentum carried a little bit farther without me even after my hands were pulled off the throttle. I ended up on the back fender holding on to the back rack. My leather belt ripped completely in half. Pete and Lynda were here when that happened. I took the rest of that day off and went to town and got a new belt.  Then late yesterday afternoon I went out to throw some brush out of the way so I could get the arch back to some remaining skids I had close to the cabin. While wading around, I tripped and fell forward. On my way down I saw the jagged snag where a branch had driven in the ground from a felling, and then broke off like a spear point sticking straight up. Nothing I could do.  It missed my neck by about 6 inches. I had my helmet and screen on too. I'm being careful with everything I do, but this is just one nasty environment. Everything is dead, hard, rigid, jagged and sharp. There is a lot of ways to get hurt out there that never occur to you until they occur.

Anyhow, things really look different then they did.  Here are a couple sets of before and now photos.

Before
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC02390.JPG)


After
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03363.JPG)

Before
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC02399.JPG)

after
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03364.JPG)

I hate the stuff. :D Long limbs, when it hits the ground it's still up in the air unless it's a mature tree with weight behind it to crush them limbs. But, that doesn't always work either. Darn stuff is like tumble weeds. Just try and rid of the stuff in a plantation. :D

Boss, don't shoot yoreself in the foot over that larch.  Don't let the spring poles larch yoreself into space, either. 

I know what you mean Jeff.Lots of things can and do happen. I cut alot of dead stuff for my OWB.I see things too that can hurt a person.I try to cut all my limbs 2-3 feet long to get them on the ground. Sometimes I ran the saw up and down the limbs too.Looks real good on the ground to drive your ATV through. No high stumps I see.  :D  It is alot of fun to better your land. I wonder what will grow now? Have a picture of the trees on your landing?

I'm getting ready to run to town and get some supplies. I need to get another can of chainsaw gas and some FOOD. ;D  I do have a photo from last week.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03365.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03366.jpg)

Wow, you been busy Boss.   ;)  Wish I had a pile of larch logs like that....  ;D

How do you stack those larch without a loader. ???

Everyone of them by hand by myself. Put one end up then pivot up the other. I'm turning into an ox. ;)

what is going to happen to all of the wood?

I guess you don't need to eats yer spinach when you got logs like that to pile up!  Looking very fine there 8) Glad to hear you didn't impale yourself on any snags!

Good honest hard work. ;D Good thing most of it is semi dry, that's heavy stuff fresh cut and green, even the small stuff.  :)

Obviously the shoulder has healed and you are feeling better  :)

So, what are you going to do with all that dead larch?

Believe me, some of it is still plenty heavy. You will notice a direct relationship to the size of the wood to its location in the pile. :)  The shoulder continues to improve. What it can't do, I work around. At the end of everyday it is the sorest part of the body, but its not the pain of injury that I had before, but the pain like you get from simply pushing muscles to the limit. Same sort of pain I would get after physical therapy. At least with this therapy I have a pile of wood to look at as a result.

The firewood will probably go to fire a friends sap boiler this coming spring. The logs are going to be sawn this next spring as well. Not exactly sure into what yet. My land does not have a suitable spot to build on due to soil type and water table. If I could find one little old acre somewhere close to my land, and I have been looking for quite some time without any luck, we would be using it to build a cabin.

Couldn't you build on your land on stilts like they do on the Gulf Coast?

I've augured down 6 feet and its still organic material. If a guy wanted to throw enough money at it, you could build, but the problem up here is wetlands and other code limitations ontop of the actual structural and foundation concerns. We have to deal with Hydraulic and frost heave.

Yes, I suspected that the Code would get you.

Having seen, or rather seen into some of those thickets that you are working with, I can testify that you are and have been facing a challenge.  Unseen dangers everywhere.  Your progress has been amazing and I'm sure in part to that Logrite arch.   :)

Will the openings be planted with something or keep cleared for possible bushhogging?

We are still contemplating that.  The plan is to see what comes up this next season. there is a very real chance it will be aspen, and if it is, we may go that way.  We have been poisoning the tag alder stumps in hopes they don't come back. If Aspen is not the regen species, we may plant it or there is the possibility we will brush hog it.  It is up in the air right now simply because this was an unplanned event and we were forced into doing something or nothing. Did that sentence make sense? ::)

Yes, it absolutely made sense.  Sometimes you just gotta scratch where you itch.   ;)

Since its raining steady here today and we are under high wind advisories, I couldn't do much in the woods in the way of harvest, but I did don a raincoat and spent a couple hours flagging live trees. The good thing is I found probably 60 or 70 live trees. Some are too big for me to reach around to flag with the marking tape. The bad thing is, while doing this I discovered at least as many dead trees I had not noticed.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03368.JPG)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03370.JPG)

The purpose for flagging the live trees, is for a couple reasons.  One, to tell the freshly demised from the still living, as it won't be long before the needles drop, and two, to track the living trees to see if they have not just survived the brunt of the infestation to date, but continue to survive. I've found some real good ones that will make excellent seed trees if they do. several over 15-16" DBH

While I was out flagging around the field, I snapped a couple photos from the log end of my piles. The two piles in view are saw logs.  I am just now getting into sawing the larger trees. I have at least this many more logs coming just from here at the cabin.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03372.JPG)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03371.JPG)

Since I was already soaked, even with the rain gear on, I took a pail of bait to put out for the no-show bears down on my place. On the way back out I swung my one of my nicer Tamaracks. I was greatly saddened to see that it to has expired. I hdidn't have the will to go on to check on the other large ones. Its just sad.  All I had with me to show scale of this tree was the pail. I'm not sure how the heck I can get this one out of my woods. :-\


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC03375.JPG)

Tammy just called me and said she hear the wind jack-knifed a semi on top of the Mackinaw Bridge and there is at least one fatality.

I just heard an update on the Mackinaw Bridge incident on the T.V.  The Bridge is closed.  A tractor Trailer crossed from the south bound lanes into the n orth bound lanes, hitting a car and hitting the rail 4 times.  The semi driver is the fatality. They do not know yet if the death is related to the accident, or a health issue. The bridge is still closed.

Reopened 5:30 pm, just read

That must be pretty exciting to bounce around like that up on that bridge. Hate to have been in that car or anywhere around the bouncing semi.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/fatal_semi-car_crash_closes_ma.html

Cut that big tree into 8 foot lengths,would that may it do able? I use some salt to kill my stumps,but I am here all of the time too. I cut kinda a bowl into the stump and fill it full of salt and than water. Whatever it needs when I check it,I fill it up,be it salt or water. Deer like it too. Most of the time I only do this to the poplar.

Problem is there is no where to fell it.  I think one or two trips in with the quad and the arch wont hurt anything, but there is no opening for the tree to come down without collateral damage. I have several big cedars around the tree I do not want to remove. There are probably another 20 dead trees within a 50 yard radius of this one, and pretty decent as they have grown in a dense cedar stand, so they are long and straight in trunk.

Guess you have a wildlife tree.  ;D

I'm not ready to concede that yet. There is a lot of wood in that tree.

Life is never simple.  If you could get someone to delimb and top it first, then only the main trunk would be felled which should cause minimal collateral damage.  The main trunk could even be taken down in 8', etc. sections.  At least that is probably the direction that I would take.

I know a guy, but he's in prison. :-\ ;)

You know a couple don't you?

Have you thought of using a block and your winch to pile the logs?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10030/Jeffs_whack.JPG)

Nice hinges on those butts. ;D

You have got a pile of  logs there.

Nice logs  8) 8)

It's nasty here today. Several of the Tamarack I have to take down yet have been topped by the current wind event.  I walked back to the back field, which is about half way to the back line of the property to put out some enticements for the deer as Pete plans on hunting when he and Lynda get up here. They were due this afternoon, but opted to stop at Pete's dad's to stay the night before coming on up. Probably due to the high winds and Lynda fretting about the bridge crossing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8UkKRI-iZU

Cancelled hunting here today also due to the high winds. Went to the Cadillac Gun Show instead.

Has Logrite got ski's for that arch?

I have no idea. I don't recall ever seeing any skies on any of them as options.  Kevin would probably make you some.

I have some but an idea for yours would be a box on a ski that could be cinched around the tire as the tire sits in the box on the ski.
That's what I had made for the LT-15.
Do you use that place in the winter?

Not usually. Pete and Lynda have turned into snow birds. :-\   They won 't even be black powder hunting this year.  I may be coming up to burn brush though once there is snow cover. 

Skies on the arch wouldn't do me much good as I don't have a snow machine. If I needed skies on the arch, I'd need them worse on the bike.

I know someone with an argo on tracks.

 :)  I plan on being done before snow flies.  Ya wanna come swamp lumber in the spring? ;D

Maybe, I'll be sawing in the Spring to beat the bugs in May but I could be available some time in March.
When are you going to be there by yourself again?

I'll have to get back to you on that. When I get home I have at least 5 new websites scheduled to be built so I'll be tied up for a whiile.

I like to see others peoples woods and fields. I have a small field like that in the woods. But mine is surrounded by stone walls. Do you have someone to take the firewood? Most around here won't even touch softwood for fire wood. Won't even throw in just one stick of softwood and 2-3 of hardwood to burn it. Was windy here yesterday too.

Tamarack is pretty DanG hard and makes a good firewood.  It's got the same BTUs as black cherry  :)

I've gotten a good many of those cheaper air tight stoves, that peavey mart sells, red hot with tammarack...  Threw in just one too many sticks on da fire.   :D  It burns so hotttttt that we had to fire the door  and windows open in the bunkhouse to cool down in -20 C weather.   ;)  Thats what we call a Northern Redneck Sauna.  It melted all the snow that was within about 10 feet around the whole bunkhouse.  How we never burnt it all down I just don't know.  :D

Steve and I met up at the cabin the week after New Years for a few days to do some brush burning. The following is all the video I took while we were there. It's unedited so, be warned. Mostly be warned about being bored. :)  If you go to youtube to watch it, you can choose to be bored in high def. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbS_fwGWe0M

Nice coat, Boss.  Nice fires, too.

Took a while to get those two nice camp fires going. But no rabbit to cook? I was waitin to see it finally jump outta that stump, but guess it was safe just sittin tight.  ::)
Thanks for sharing.

Having visited with Jeff at the cabin and seeing those dead Tamarack trees before he harvested them, it was very interesting to watch this and to see things and places that were familiar.  Now, I am anxious to see the logs turned into lumber.   :)

So that's the famous futon, find any stinkbugs Steve.  :D

That wasn't boring at all.  I like the little bunson burner thingy too. 
Thanks for the trip.  It's cold here today but not that cold. ;)

It certainly looks like winter has spared you of any big snow storms there so far.  ;)

I need to burn my brush pile too. I have a flame thrower too. That thing will go through some fuel wide open and it will make some noise too. If I had a leaf blower I would try that trick out too. Now that we have snow on the ground,it's much safer to burn. And I can burn anytime I want with snow on the ground. I live in a small time,volunteer fire dept,so have to wait until after 5 to burn with no snow.

I use a splash of Diesel.   ;D

True using a splash of diesel with about 6 inches of snow on top of the pile.  :D I use both diesel and the flame thrower when there is snow.

We used diesel on the one pile up by the cabin that I mentioned as a failure in the video, $10 worth in fact. Never could get it to go.

I've burnt lots of brush to over the years. Just used fine sticks and dry wood with paper to get the fire going. Never used any petrol. I would get the piles burning so hot that the green stuff burnt up just like the dry stuff. :D I would have 2 or 3 piles burning, and I handled it a lot because a pile of brush just burns a hole in the middle. So I just kept feeding as the middle burned. I burned a lot of green apple wood and that stuff would keep fire all night, I could add more dry stuff on top in the morning and my fire was soon roaring again. One winter my uncle and I burnt brush on several acres of cut land, no snow at all, all winter. Back in 2002 there wasn't any snow here until the end of January and I burned the old apple orchard wood and shrub brush for 2 months.  That was only an acre of land, but there was sure a lot of burning. 8)

Interesting thread Jeff, sure is a shame about all your tamarack dying, but @ least your getting some use out of it, nice job falling & skidding. Glad to hear your shoulder is coming along, play safe!!...


                     Dave

I have 2 piles on our property that we have tried to burn several times with no luck.
The wood is rotten and is some bigger stuff.  I've tried adding other wood and got a good fire going but the old stuff still won't burn.  Diesel and burning old tires hasn't worked either.

  Old tires :o no_no   We always built the brush pile on top of a couple old tires to get it going  fire_smiley fire_smiley  ;D 8) 8)  I have an on going wood debris pile that gets burned every couple years.  No tires any more and it's not that I've burned them all either.  Still got lots of them around  :-\  A friend of a friend got in trouble a couple years ago for burning tires.  He had a large brush fire going near the interstate.  Tires had been used to get it going but were long since burnt.  Anyway a DEQ agent went by on the highway saw the fire and tracked down the access.  He fished the cords and beads out of the fire and wrote a ticket  ::) >:( >:(

I knew better also but this try was a last resort sort of thing.
It didn't work so we won't be doing that again.  I knew they could see the black smoke and worried about for a while until dark.

When burning slash piles in the regeneration opening I found that what SD says is true.  The easiest and most foolproof way to get a fire going is to start small with dry wood, shavings, and dry kindling.  As the fire begins to get a head of steam add bruch to it slowly until you have a good sustainable fire.  Once the fire is to size you can begin to load the bigger stuff.  I used my front loader to move the outer edges of the pile into the center as the center burned.

OWW
That is the technique for me too. However that torch sure looked like fun except for lugging it to the pile. About a half pint of chainsaw fuel mix works well for some "starter". :)
If I burn tires it is at night, but don't anymore just because of the nuisance of picking out the steel afterwards.
Just may have to get a fire going today or soon, as we finally have some snow cover.

I've seen my father pour diesel as fire starter. All it would do is burn the diesel off. He had nothing to move the piles except tractors and you don't really want to put the front end of a tractor near a fire. Years ago, the way we cleared land was to push it up to the edge, then 20 years would go by and everything was pretty much gone. Then we just leveled out the piles of mud, there would be some sticks in the mud that didn't rot so fast but a rock picker to pick the rotten wood and rocks out did wonders. Why dad used this diesel was it was a government program that you had to have the land cleared in a certain time frame. Their way costs twice as much or more than the way it was traditionally done. Some of them guys don't listen to someone that knows. The bulldozer guy dad hired from an excavation company, said if the inspector fella showed up again he was going to bury him in his truck. :D

I wish I had some video of the helitorch.  The same material used to gel fuel for the helitorch works well hand applied, if mixed into a thicker gel.  It will burn anything, as it stays lit and burns hot for a long time.  i will see if I can get some info on it. 

Here is a video of the helitorch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1kpobfCgAk

That was awesome  :o :o

Not a cheap thing to do just from lookin' at it  ;)

thanks Beenthere!  Though I have the original patent for the 'torch on my office wall, i can't put my finger on any of the old film footage that we had as promo material.  Before the torch was invented here, our guys would hand tie and deposit via helicopter strings of cans of gelled fuel wrapped in det cord over a burn unit, then touch it all off at one time.  Was a pretty sketchy way to do it. That is what drove them to develope the torch a much safer way to do it.  Nowadays we do aerial ignition, but not near what we used to do, since it is not too politically correct to touch off fuels on purpose, though if mother nature does it on a grand scale, nothing is said of the co2 released to the atmosphere, I guess it all depends on who strikes the match :-\

No that's just plain  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Maybe slightly OT, but what is the biggest tamarack you guys have ever seen? We had a huge one where I grew up in Maine-- it was the tallest tree on my parents' place. Around 100 ft. tall, and 28 inches or so ABH. It finally died and my dad dropped it and got some boards out of it for his truck bed. Because of growing up in its shadow, I got the false impression that Tamarack (we called it hackmatack) was the biggest kind of tree in Maine.

Generally tamarack is no taller than balsam fir, and tops out around 65-70 feet tall. They do get big on the but especially growing on old abandoned fields. I have measured some in the upper twenties. The limbs on these bigger trees were very long, at least 20 feet. I live in Western New Brunswick and my woods are on the border with Maine, my house is 3 miles south. Most of our tamarack is spiral grained (twisty). You can even see the spiral twist in the trees I planted in the wet places. Grows fast, I'd rather have tamarack than dogwood and willow bushes growing on the wet places. I think the record tamarack was in Maine and I forget the height. But it was recently cut because it was dying.

As of 1980, my dendro book indicates the record tree to be 95' with a circumference of 9'8" (37 inch diameter)

We had a small stand of it,maybe an acre, back in '93.We probably had some about that big. I have no idea the height.But the biggest we had was white pine. Some were over 4 feet and we had a few 5 feet across. Some were real nice looking pines and some were some ugly. My Father and me chased down all the big ones. Now those big pines are hard to get rid of. The debarkers only open so wide and those big trees won't fit. Seems like Hancock will take the big ones now. I don't have anymore left.

Yes, the white pines get much bigger than the tamarack. They do grow some big ones in Maine, I've seen some o those 5-footers. The tamarack at our place, I never measured it, but I'm sure it was at the very least 95 feet, but nowhere near the record diameter. The limbs spread quite widely, and some of them were over 8" thick at the base. I now deal with a number of trees that are 100 ft. tall and taller, though I rarely saw them in Maine, just that one hackmatack and the few pines that got that tall. I guess the fores height in Maine must be typically around 50-60 ft. wheras here in South Carolina it is probablly 80-90 feet typically for a mature forest. The truly mature stands here are sometimes over 100 ft tall, especially in the mountains. That's true especially of the oaks, tulip tree, and sweetgum, with some pine that tall in the mountains.

Spruce, especially red spruce, can grow  to 110 feet or more. But has to be a good site. I have measured red spruce on the Waspke flood plain that were 105 feet. The fir in one stand that came to mind had died and fell down and were no taller than 65 feet. The site was a little wet for fir and it never had much of a diameter. Hardwood on the ridges here are short. In protected areas with deep moist soil they can get to 80 feet, not much taller. Oh, you might find a 90 foot sugar maple or yellow birch, but very rare around here. Mostly because they were cut years ago.

       Sad to see the loss of your trees. How far into their normal life cycle were they? Around here tamarack (western larch) is our top firewood tree price wise and is the same as doug fir at the mill. Are you going to re establish the tamarack or go in a differant direction, and will they start in a shaded understory? We don't have hardwoods out here and if it wasn't for the tamarack our hills would never change color.

I'd say the trees on My sister's Property were middle aged, around 40 or so. The big trees on my property I do not know. I have cedars up to 100 years old, and tamarack growing up amongst them. They actually have quite a different appearance due to growing in the dense cedar. Much taller then on the cabin property. If we have a dry spring or summer this year, I may be able to get some down and out, then I'll know the age.

Well, Burlkraft and I are converging on the cabin tonight getting ready to start milling up some of this Tamarack over the next few days.  :)

Sounds like it will be an adventure, and some hard work to boot.

Best of luck. Not sure about the weather for the East end but supposed to be in the upper 80's out west for the next couple days.

hope you guys have a good time. I hope they saw out good for you.

Well now you have lots of logs to saw out for a visitors/guest chalet. At the very least and shed for the surplus lumber. ;D

Cut the lumber to build a shed to store the lumber.  There is something circular about this  :).

Have fun and be careful, well with Steve helping be really careful! :D

Let the fun begin!   8) 8)

Jeff, I have a cousin that lives in Barbeau Michigan, If I can get an e mail address from him I will send the pics.  He has lived there for 40 plus years now and knows some loggers/forestry guys in the area.

Sorry for not posting. Will catch up when we can. Steve leaves in the morning. Im here with a busted truck. Need parts shifter cable and gas tank strap. Ill catch up on private messages as soon as i can. Thanks a ton for all the help Kevin!

You're welcome JB.
THANK YOU for the fish dinner!
You guys must be whipped by now.

Jeff has no internet or a truck.
We thought we had about 20 logs left and as he was sawing up some firewood to finish off a trailer load of slabs
he counted what was left.

60 logs!!!!  :o :o :o

Looks like it's gonna take anudder few days up there to finish.

Kevin....make sure you are on vacation then  :D :D :D :D

WHAT?
60 logs?
That must be that pile of spindles on the south side of the staging area.
I thought that was his burn pile.

Jeff, I was wondering if you would care to describe what has happened at this site in the ensuing years.  What species are being able to colonize the site?

Thanks,
tom

PS....It was mentioned by others as well, but one thing to keep in mind with tamarack, as opposed to the European, Japanese, and hybrid larch entities that are also out there, is that tamarack is a shorter-lived species when compared to any of these three.  It was mentioned...a lifespan of roughly 100 years.  That is short for a pine-family member and is also short for a larch.  By comparison, European, Japanese, and very likely hybrid larch types can be expected to live for multiple centuries when well-sited and left alone.  If I had to assign a number of years to what I think is likely the genetic potential lifespan of any one of these 3, I would guess right around 400 years.  It is my understanding that there are very large, old hybrid larch in various European countries, and that great size can be attained.

In my experience European larch grows faster than tamarack.  I used some this winter for firewood. Japanese larch is fast growing to. I had one in the yard but the sap sucker pecked it too death, which may have indicated a bug in it. The only bugs I saw was sawflies and I killed those. Those none natives grow far straighter than any wild larch here. I was involved in measuring several sites of replicated eastern larch in the Maritimes (NB, PEI, NS). We measured growth. Growing habit and form were assigned a number on some sort of scale. I only measured the growth with range pole and diameter tape, a couple researchers involved did the rest. I've seen a few European plantations on the research farm, but our focus was native eastern larch. Can't give you much of any details, it was 30 years ago. ;D

Not that it means much, but my dendrology professor seemed to like tamarack over any other native softwood. Forget the reasons, but I suspect it was due to the fall color and limbs covered in little cones. There was one planted near the back entrance of the Forestry/Geology building. :)

And don't forget balsam fir doesn't live much past 80 years and down she comes for the worms. ;D Grows twice as fast as spruce, if on well drained site with decent soil. They look like crap on wet ground, yellow and stunted.

Bill,

I can't help but chime in here. I do realize this discussion is now about ten pages long and spans nearly a decade. That said, I've not read it either.

I'd like to point out a couple of things relating to my exposure/observations of Tamarack. One, there is no shortage of tamarack in New Brunswick. Because of changing times/newer materials, tamarack demand is declining. There's lots of healthy tamarack. Two, tamarack grow best when it can receive lots of sunlight. In my unscientific observations, sunlight is equally important to soil moisture in promoting optimal tamarack growth.

As is, I use tamarack to make end grain cutting boards which I make/sell as a hobby. To my knowledge there is only one mill in NB that saws/dries any volume of tamarack (St. Leonard), and it's not an Irving holding. Having said that, if there was any money to be made in tamarack, 'The Empire' would be a dominate player.

Yep, I agree with what you have said George. :)

My planted tamarack  are to fill the voids and some will be firewood. ;D

Just to add here, not far from you, out behind Beechwood toward Moose Mountain, but near the lake was about 100 acres of tamarack the bugs ate, back around 2007-2010 time frame. ;) Down the road in Williamstown there is a stand along the road across from Taylors (Darren) that the bugs ate. In my area here there are not many tamarack although in an old cut on the farm here I noticed some growing in a spot. I thinned down there 12 years ago and there was none then. Seeded in since, on a wetter piece. My woodlot is on the wet side in places, but the only tamarack I have there is nursery stock, there was none wild there. Now down by Waterville Hospital there is a stand of young tamarack on Culberson's land, road fence around it. Up the high way from there on Crabbe, no tamarack on that thinning and some wet land in there. Both sides of highway, opposite side was Culberson's by pines.