I 've been given 3 big oak logs too huge for my mill and too big to haul. I figure I could quarter them but have only a Husky 455, kindof a medium saw but has done everything I need up until now.
My bud said he had a guy I should meet. This guy has a garage full of saws, works as a saw mechanic and his passion is chainsaws. Would not loan or rent me a bigger saw but spent his time showing me the 066 and bigger Stihls. Suggested he had a "guy he knew" who had a saw to sell. He gave me his name and said he'd have him call me.
Went to a saw shop the next morning two counties over . Mention the Guru . They think well of him. Mention " the guy he knew" and the saw shop says he's the Guru's sodekick /buddy/wingman.. Whatever.
Both these guys seem to be quality people. I get this 066 for a little over half what new would be. Both vouch for the saw. Starts up pretty easy.
Get to the logs with both saws figuring to switch saws and logs to not continuously rip for extended periods at full speed. The 066 ran great and I was really happy. Then it got low and I filled it with my normal mix that ran the Husky all day. Had mixed it fresh that morning. Had verified on the net that it should be good although maybe higher octane would be better. The 066 ran Ok for a while but then faded. Took a long time to restart after a rest. Ran another 5 minutes and quit. Would not restart.
Called the Wingman that night. Took the saw to him. Wouldn't start. Checked spark, etc. He pulls off the exhaust and we see scoring on the piston. "That shouldn't have happened", he says.
He offers to fix or give back money. I said , Give me the money but I loved the 066's power.
WHAT HAPPENed? I'd hate to think I messed up their saw but could my new fuel that ran my Husky all day really be the problem?
Is any used saw a major risk for this? Are Stihl's so sensitive to fuel mix? Shouldn't they have told me?
Why did the guy have that much cash in his wallet. Does the chainsaw reselling market have a buyback policy?
Was this a nearmiss or what? ???
Should I pay full price for new and chance screwing it up because Stihls are sensitive?
No idea what happened with the saw but it is quite easy to insure you have correctly mixed fuel/oil ratio... personally if I sold a saw that was running fine and the purchaser brought it back at the end of the day and the cylinder was scored I would have to say well that is unfortunate for you! I'd have no way to know what the guy did to it or if he was even running a mix...Stihl saws are not "sensitive" to the mix I mean either your running a correct mix or not. I use amsoil and one can safely go down to 100/1 with that.
Why the hit on Stihl's?
You must know they wouldn't be so successful if they were "so sensitive".
(note...am I just being sensitive ?? :) )
If you were milling you were running 32:1 or so in YOUR mix right? Was the 066 tested and tuned with a mix of 50:1 that was in the tank? You see where I am going with this. If saw was tuned for 50:1 and then you switched to 32:1 with no carb changes :-[ ;).
I live pretty close to Medina. If you want to try a 122cc stihl 084 I have for sale, be my guest. Mine are set up 32:1. Half the price of new 880 also in the trader section.
i run husky and stihl side by side with the same mix all the time. no problem here.
Milling and stumping are most likely the hardest service a saw can be subjected to .
As a general rule you tune them quite fat or rich when doing either .Most saw cuts are under two minutes in length but on a stump or ripping a log you could be at 15-20 minutes or more .A rich mixure burns slower and thusly does not produce as much heat .The saw might run a tad slower but is better protected with lubrication that being the case .
Now then if that piston is cooked on the exhaust side that's a dead give away it was leaned out .If it's on the intake side it had sucked in something that ate the piston up .Bad filter, hard to judge over the internet .
as cut4fun alluded to earlier, a saw tuned to run on 50:0 and then switched to 32:1 will be running lean. it might make the difference if the saw was already running on the lean end of the spectrum.
Quote from: nmurph on October 01, 2010, 07:17:21 AM
as cut4fun alluded to earlier, a saw tuned to run on 50:0 and then switched to 32:1 will be running lean. it might make the difference if the saw was already running on the lean end of the spectrum.
I'm having a hard time understanding how if you run a richer gas mixture it would cause a saw to be running lean.
John Mc explained the well in the saws running rich thread. Steve
Thanks to everyone for the insights.
No hits on Stihl, just my first experience with them and I did say I loved the way it cut...while it cut.
I'm still saying that I think there was a lot more that should have been said about the fuel I should be using, possible carb adjustments needed, etc. as these guys are knowledgable fellows. I'd told them what I nneded to do.
Ely suggests he uses the same mix for both brands and I was keeping the running time per saw limited for caution's sake.
I'll be talking to the Wingman as I see he left a message.
One other thought on your mixed fuel. Are you using a HP oil to mix with your fuel or just regular oil. The high performance saws like an 066 need a better mix oil than lesser saws, especially in an extended cut where your really getting on it. A lower quality oil may have not given enough lubrication, and could have caused the scoring.
Quote from: ladylake on October 01, 2010, 10:25:36 AM
John Mc explained the well in the saws running rich thread. Steve
I don't know about that I would be very doubtful as to if that had any real negative effect on a saw and I say that because in all the years I have been running saws and with all of people I have ever known that runs saws day in and day out I have NEVER heard of a single instance of someone putting a richer gas to oil ratio in a saw and having that cause it to run lean and damage a saw. I have never heard of anyone in a saw shop ever mention it either. If a person normally runs 50/1 in a saw and they have the carb adjusted so its running correctly and then put in a 32/1 or 24/1 or richer mix that should not cause damage to a saw and I have never heard of a single instance of it ever happening. I'd have to see it to believe it not have someone explain it theoretically, but thats just me.
If a saw is properly tuned with 50 to 1 switching to 32 to will make it run a little leaner but most likely not in the burn up zone. If a saw is tuned on the edge of being lean with 50 to 1 switching to 32 to 1 could very well put it in the burn up zone. Steve
Northwoods1,
I think you are have a hard time understanding because you are misusing the word "richer". When going from 50:1 to 32:1 you are not using a richer mixture. It is a leaner mixture.
For each 'intake' stoke there is a certain volume of liquid which comes out of the carb. If at 50:1 the amount of gas is correct, at 32:1 you have more oil therefore you have less gas because the volume coming out of the carb remains the same. So you are now running the saw leaner.
Anyhow, that's how I see it.
Quote from: northwoods1 on October 01, 2010, 10:17:23 AM
Quote from: nmurph on October 01, 2010, 07:17:21 AM
as cut4fun alluded to earlier, a saw tuned to run on 50:0 and then switched to 32:1 will be running lean. it might make the difference if the saw was already running on the lean end of the spectrum.
I'm having a hard time understanding how if you run a richer gas mixture it would cause a saw to be running lean.
Not if you adjust the carb richer for milling smiley_dizzy. :D If you leave the settings the same you would be correct. But please tell me you are wise enough to know better. ::)
Quote from: DouginUtah on October 01, 2010, 03:38:56 PM
Northwoods1,
I think you are have a hard time understanding because you are misusing the word "richer". When going from 50:1 to 32:1 you are not using a richer mixture. It is a leaner mixture.
For each 'intake' stoke there is a certain volume of liquid which comes out of the carb. If at 50:1 the amount of gas is correct, at 32:1 you have more oil therefore you have less gas because the volume coming out of the carb remains the same. So you are now running the saw leaner.
Anyhow, that's how I see it.
wow great info. i thought the same way as northwoods1, now i see the light. thanks for the explaination brother!
Well it just boils down to the fact you are taking a thoughobred saw and making it do a Clydesdales work .It will do it but you have to feed it accordingly .Never the less what ever the reason too bad the saw got cooked .
After reading this over and thinking about it awhile here is what I bet happened. Just a WAG!
066 was tuned to 50:1 at peak cutting rpm. Ran low on fuel and OP put a 32:1-40:1 mix back in and made it even leaner.
Remember this was milling and should have been set really rich from the get go IMO and she was to lean from the get go and the condition got worse when it went even leaner when milling . Just my WAG.
I'd told the seller/s I needed to "rip" the logs into quarters so the very knowledgable sellers knew what I was going to expect from their used saw. I'd seen the comment that stumpage and milling are toughest on the saw and I'm assuming you're using milling and ripping for the same heavy continuous sawing?
So, if I'm understanding correctly , someone should know to change the settings and the fuel mix when they're sawing lengthwise down the log for long periods? I thought I was going to avoid excessive heat by trading off between saws.
And the smaller Husky never complained a bit running on the same mix. I did have a rip blade on the Husky and standard on the Stiehl. Didn't seem to make that much difference since the Stiehl was so much more powerful.
Still mystified as to what happened tho I 'm trying to absorb the mix to settings to planned use explanation.
Switching off saws would have helped them cool between the cuts, but I'm assuming you didn't switch in mid cut. One good, long continuous rip can generate a lot of heat in a saw. When you think about what they are really designed for (more along the lines of shorter felling and bucking cuts, then a pause before the next cut), it's easy to imagine how the heat buildup in a long ripping cut can be a problem. Any problems are magnified if the saw is running a bit lean. When running rich, the extra fuel has a cooling effect (kind of like what happens when you spill fuel on your skin - it chills you as it vaporizes).
It could be the reason that one saw had no problems, while the other did , was that one was tuned for "peak" cutting performance on shorter bucking cuts, while the other was set up to run richer. Another factor could be that one has a more restrictive muffler (like a catalytic muffler) while the other "breathes" easier. I replaced the catalytic muffler on one of my saws because the saw tended to heat up when I spent time doing quick, repeated bucking. The problems disappeared with the new muffler.
John Mc
Here's another thought .Many people prefer to use a "ripping chain " if they are indeed ripping .Fine and dandy ,nice smooth cuts but slow as a snail .
A good old chisel will cut a darn sight sight faster and if positioned correctly will not plug up with chips .Of course if not so positioned right will plug up tight as a bull's butt at fly time .Never the less a good sharp chisel pulls a darn site better than a rip chain and if you are going to run the lumber through a planer what makes the difference .
Those of saw modify persuesion that build special millers also keep the power stroke as long as possible and tune for high torque rather than high speed .Those saws as a rule will run cool under long cuts and don't get the revs that might be built into a "woods port " but they will run almost forever built like that .
Hey Guys,
I was asked if I knew of anybody having a bigger saw for sale. This was not my saw, never was. I put the buyer and seller in touch.
A little more information, as was told to me.
Saw ran good until "Opti" was used to fuel saw. Not sure if 1 gallon pouch (70:1) or 2.5 gallon pouch (100:1).
New owner had a previous saw that was also melted down.
The information I got about this saw was that several tanks of fuel had been run through it by the seller, with no problems. There was no problem until the fuel mix was changed. This is what is also stated the the first post.
Larry (GURU), HOS.
That's the word I got the other day too.
The buyer of the 066 ran his fuel after running out the tank the seller had in it, buyers mix was 70:1 or something crazy.
I know the seller WINGMAN and was talking to him face to face about this the other day. Seller is a super HONEST stand up guy. Operator dont have a clue on what it takes to rip and mill with a saw, just like I thought prior. BUT I really missed on my WAG, it was worse off then I could have imagined with OP running 70:1 min :o :o :D.
Some of those guys selling the little pouches of mix oil must be pretty proud of their oil. They are always pushing high mix ratios. My brother in law had a pouch that he was going to mix up for his little Husky (a 136, if I recall). The volume noted on the pouch struck me as odd, so I go out the calculator... sure enough, 70:1 if mixed as they recommended. I told him to stick with 50:1. Saving a few cents on oil wasn't worth the risk. (Besides, in his case the gas was likely to go stale before he used it up anyway.)
Quote from: chainsaw-57 on November 19, 2010, 01:09:33 PM
Hey Guys,
I was asked if I knew of anybody having a bigger saw for sale. This was not my saw, never was. I put the buyer and seller in touch.
A little more information, as was told to me.
Saw ran good until "Opti" was used to fuel saw. Not sure if 1 gallon pouch (70:1) or 2.5 gallon pouch (100:1).
New owner had a previous saw that was also melted down.
The information I got about this saw was that several tanks of fuel had been run through it by the seller, with no problems. There was no problem until the fuel mix was changed. This is what is also stated the the first post.
Larry (GURU), HOS.
Now the truth comes out.......the buyer used Optimol pre-mix !!
Stihl Ltd. would never cover a lean seizure on warranty on one of their products run on Optimol ,never did never will.
I own a 18 year old 066 with thousands of hrs on it, always used 50:1 Stihl oil and never had the cylinder off. Toughest saw I ever owned. Half of its hrs were used milling with a 36" Alaskan mill.
Willard.
Quote from: HolmenTree on November 20, 2010, 09:57:55 AM
Quote from: chainsaw-57 on November 19, 2010, 01:09:33 PM
Saw ran good until "Opti" was used to fuel saw. Not sure if 1 gallon pouch (70:1) or 2.5 gallon pouch (100:1).
New owner had a previous saw that was also melted down.
Larry (GURU), HOS.
Now the truth comes out.......the buyer used Optimol pre-mix !!
Willard.
It was actually coincidence how it happened Willard. Guy I know Wingman shows up to buy some of my 084 parts. We get talking about a 066 he sold and came back burned up. The truth was told on OP running 70:1+ and I told him about this thread.
So glad OP didnt take me up on my 084 for milling, I would have been one ticked off smiley_hillbilly_tub_base if he brought it back saying it was the saw >:(.
I have used that opti mix from time to time, on several size stihls (290, 036, 039, 044, 460). No problems with it here. This thread is cause for concern though. But could it be more than just that he was using Opti?? smiley_headscratch
Quote from: ErikC on November 20, 2010, 01:10:09 PM
I have used that opti mix from time to time, on several size stihls (290, 036, 039, 044, 460). No problems with it here. This thread is cause for concern though. But could it be more than just that he was using Opti?? smiley_headscratch
It's obvious the 066 was tuned for 50:1 regular 2 cycle oil ,then milling was commenced with no readjustment with 70- 100:1 optimol mix gas [different breed of 2 cycle oil altogether]. Now we're on a different side of " lean" condition.
Willard.
Quote from: ErikC on November 20, 2010, 01:10:09 PM
I have used that opti mix from time to time, on several size stihls (290, 036, 039, 044, 460). No problems with it here. This thread is cause for concern though. But could it be more than just that he was using Opti?? smiley_headscratch
I have no idea if the oil itself in those little pouches is any good. One problem is that they give you 1.8 oz of it and say to mix it with one gallon of gas. This gives you a 70:1 ratio. If instead, you mix it with about 0.7 gallons you'll get a 50:1 ratio, which is probably a safer place to run your saw.
John Mc
Another problem with these Opti pouches is shelf life. The thin plastic leaches out useful solvents in short time producing a unsafe friction barrier in the operation of the saw. I know a few dealers with inventory up to or over 10 yrs old.
Willard.
My experience with Optimol oil is from 20-25 years ago when it first came out. Right from the get go my dealer was mentioning engine seizures from customers mixing it too lean. When Echo adopted it and put it in their own packaging I bought it under the Echo label, but the numbers on the bottle added up to 50-1. The numbers on the Opti packaging never added up and it was more expensive for less oil.
Anyway, I ran it for over a decade buying in larger bottles and always making sure I used slightly more oil and slightly less gas than specified. I just wanted a tiny fraction more margin for errors or variances in packaging volume. I never had a problem with it in all the years I ran it. But the plastic pouches for 1 gallon mix measurements were asking for trouble because they cut the volume of oil too far. If you got every drop out then it was good for 0.9 gallons but most people aren't that careful and don't worry about the 8-10 drops dribbling down the outside of the gas can. Then they put 1.2 gallons of gas in the can because that's what it will hold.
Quote from: chainsaw-57 on November 19, 2010, 01:09:33 PM
Hey Guys,
Larry (GURU), HOS.
Hi Larry ,good to see you up and kicking . ;D
Oh I just don't know about this "miracle " type oil some think they have to have .Amsoil or this stuff in question .I mean for heavens sakes those old saws ran for decades on 16 to 1 with 30 WT motor oil . Same with the old outboards and many are still in use today .
Now being an old timer I use 32 to 1 but 40 or even 50 is alright in my book .70 to 100 to 1 is kind of pushing it though .
Quote from: Al_Smith on November 20, 2010, 09:00:37 PM
Oh I just don't know about this "miracle " type oil some think they have to have .Amsoil or this stuff in question .I mean for heavens sakes those old saws ran for decades on 16 to 1 with 30 WT motor oil . Same with the old outboards and many are still in use today .
Now being an old timer I use 32 to 1 but 40 or even 50 is alright in my book .70 to 100 to 1 is kind of pushing it though .
I don't think anyone is arguing that Optimol is some sort of "super oil". My concern was just the opposite.
I'm guessing those older saws
had to run 16:1 or 32:1 because they were running something like 30wt motor oil. If I were running that oil, I sure wouldn't be pushing it to 50:1. It doesn't bother me to run 50:1 in an older saw (or my weed whacker, which calls for 32:1) as long as I'm using a good oil in it.
Oh sure when all they had was 30 or 40WT Sae oil they had to run at 16 to one .However even back in the 60's they had better mix oil they ran at 40 to one with no problems. Early to mid 70's they had 50 to one .
Some of us run 32 to one because we prefer it not because we have to . Just preference and I have no intention of reviving the great "oil wars " which seem to go on forever . :D
QuoteFor each 'intake' stoke there is a certain volume of liquid which comes out of the carb. If at 50:1 the amount of gas is correct, at 32:1 you have more oil therefore you have less gas because the volume coming out of the carb remains the same. So you are now running the saw leaner.
That doesn't make sense to me.
Less gas and more oil =less lean.
:D I could never figure that out either but some people swear by it .
So evidently with that thinking you should at least in theory burn more saws up by running 32 to 1 as opposed to super duper oil at 100 to 1 . Oh well I've been wrong before .
In order to run the same speed and get the same power at 32:1, you would have the same amount of gas burned, with more oil than a 50:1.
Perhaps so on a strictly stock saw .However with some enhancements that amount of gasoline has been increased ,still got the oil though .It takes fuel to make power . 8)
Al I was trying to say I agreed with you :D How can a 32:1 ratio seize a saw, but not a 100:1!
I could never figure it out either but some people will argue to the ends of the earth over it .Dumb as it may sound one praticular genious on one of the forums even suggested that old cast iron lined Macs would run on staight gas.
Well he was partially correct because they will ,and run fast but not for too long .Kind of like an electric motor when they burn up .Once all the smoke leaks out they never run again .
:D :D :D :D
I don't want to bash a dead horse, but I have run 80:1 on AMzoil mix in a Stihl brushsaw and those saws are turning 12500 rpm at peak, but I generally just touch the throttle. I don't run a saw screaming mad. I don't need to. I get 1.5 hours on a tank and forever looking for the gas jug to refill because I'll sometimes be 50 meters from the jug or more. This spring I was on a light work strip or three and 4 tanks of gas cut 2.5 acres. But, I never saw the benefit in using Amzoil because of the price, so I just use Stihl or Husky oils. I had people tell me you can't smell the exhaust off Amzoil mix, nothing but bunk.