I'm a new to the Board and the forestry information discussed here is great. I would like opinions on reforesting a tract with longleaf pine. I have recently purchased a 100 acre tract that's mostly cutover (it needs replanting including a clear cut). The tract is located in the deep East Texas Pineywoods, has fine sandy loam soil (a "high and dry" tract), and has a Longleaf (LL) site index of 82 and a Loblolly (LOB) site index of 79.
Regarding LL advantages, it appears that government cost share money is more readily available for LL than LOB. Also due to down trends in the paper and housing sector, pulpwood and saw timber pricing looks weak long term. Since the TX Gulf Coast is routinely hit by hurricanes, it seems that poles would be a good market (with LL being a good fit). Plus I wanted to manage the tract for wildlife and LL opens up the tract.
On the disadvantages, it appears that LL is difficult to establish (I would need to use containerized seedlings and wild land machine planting due to heat and possible drought), controlled burns would be difficult (I likely would have to use herbicides), and it's a longer payday compared to LOB (which I probably will not see since I'm in my mid 50's but my grandkids will thank me). Also government cost share money will introduce some management restrictions on the property.
My preference at this point is Loblolly but it appears that there's a lot of interest with Longleaf reforestation. Opinions are appreciated.
Mike
Welcome to the forum Mike. I can't help you any, there will be someone along who can shortly.
Our resident East Texas forester will probably chime in soon. Loblolly is easier to manage than longleaf. It is easier to establish, grows much faster, and is more resistant to ice. The density and quality of the wood is better with longleaf, but longleaf needs fire to thrive.
A lot of the longleaf restoration is a romantic attempt to return to the old ecosystem, but we have brainwashed the public for decades that fire in the forest is a bad thing. Plus, many longleaf restoration projects struggle because the longleaf is being planted on sites that it is not adapted to. I have seen some people re-plant 3 times in order to get a stand.
Quote from: WDH on October 03, 2010, 08:15:11 PM
Our resident East Texas forester will probably chime in soon.
Quote from: WDH on October 03, 2010, 08:15:11 PM
Our resident East Texas forester will probably chime in soon.
Going to have to wait for him to wake up tomorrow, it's past his bedtime now.
Welcome to the form Mike, You'll get a lot of info here.
Well, I'd vote for longleaf, but that's a personal preference. If you're really looking for money, I'd guess loblolly would beat it out. Here's a link from the USFS about longleaf: http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/Volume_1/pinus/palustris.htm
I'm thinking that herbicide can replace fire partly, but not wholly... Is there a possiblilty that county, state or feds would be inetersted in burning your place along with theirs?
Welcome!
snore, snort, ahem, who rang my bell?
Welcome, Mike, what part of East Texas? I'm in Livingston. Anyway, there is a plantation of Sonderegger Pine.
http://www.tytyga.com/product/Sonderegger+Pine+Tree
over towards the Jasper County line, it is a cross between Loblolly and Longleaf, the best characteristic is that it wont stay in the grass mode like Longleaf, but gets started quicker with some of the better characteristics of Longleaf. This web site is some what expensive for a major planting, compared to Lob, but if you look around I think you can find a better source. I have looked at the plantation (some 12 acres) and found the stems to look like longleaf candled out about 6 foot tall, and 3 years old, not fast for lob, but good for longleaf.
Either way you will be starting into the timber business, and might be something to look into. I will do some research tomorrow and see if I can come up with a name and number of the plantation and source of his seedlings.
By the I am Don Staples, Staples Forestry.
Thanks for the welcome and everyone's feedback.
RynSmith – the tract is an irregular shape that borders a large timber tract and two historical homesteads. With some firebreaks, it probably can be burned. However, the risk seems significant. It's a good question that I'll ask when I talk with the regional forester. Regarding the "money" decision, I'm neutral (loblolly thinnings produce little income these days and longleaf may actually be more profitable long term). My main goal is to not have to replant and loblolly appears to be less risky.
Texas Ranger – The tract is located just north of Chester (near the Barnes Pasture). I've haven't consider hybrids, so thanks for the follow-up. Hopefully you can sleep late tomorrow.
Mike
Welcome to the forum Mike.
8) 8)
From your description of the soil, it sounds like longleaf would be the best option. Although loblolly may start-off faster in terms of growth, longleaf will often surpass it on those "high and dry" sandy tracts. My grandma owns a high and dry sandy tract that was replanted to loblolly in the Sandhills of South Carolina about ten years ago. That was a big mistake. The whole stand has fusiform rust now. That's another advantage of longleaf: it's the least susceptible pine to get fusiform (not sure if that's a problem in Texas?). She also has another tract in the sandhills that volunteered up in mostly loblolly and slash pine about 25 years ago after a farm was abandoned. On the driest part of the tract a few longleaf volunteered up as well, and I noticed that they have a larger diameter and their needles look darker green and healthier compared to the loblolly pines around them. Anyway, the plan is to clear-cut that tract this winter (hopefully, the pulpwood prices will go sky high again this winter), then herbicide in the spring/summer to kill hardwood competition, then site prep burn in the fall to kill hardwood and pines, then replant in longleaf next winter. According to the county forester, that should cost around $125 per acre with cost share.
Have you thought about pinestraw raking? In SC, their is a big market for longleaf pinestraw. Many landowners are bringing around $100 per acre every two to three from having their pinestraw raked, and you can start raking when a stand is 10 to 12 years old.
Mike
There are longleaf all over that area, so it should be adequate for growth. There is, or used to be, a long leaf stand preserved just off 287 near Barnes.
I have not come up with a name or location of the cross stand, but still working on it.
TR, ya ever hear from Charlie?
Welcome Mike to the Forestry Forum. I planted only ½ acre of Longleaf Pine. This was done for nostalgic reasons only. There is a thread about it here that may answer a few questions: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,41220.0.html Good luck, and keep asking questions. :)
I actually researched financial comparisons of loblolly versus longleaf plantations on a good site. I won't go through all the boring financial details, but the bottom line was that both are equal in an investment return if the longleaf tract is straw harvested. I was surprised since longleaf has a longer rotation. However, the pine straw revenues boost the early year cash flows and make for a better return (compared to no pine straw raking). I'm not sure who in deep East Texas would rake straw, but perhaps someone's doing this.
Texas Ranger, thanks for the follow-up on the hybrid option, but I'll stick with the basic seedling stock. I would have an interest in looking at the tract.
Since my plan is based on using government cost share money, it may make sense to base my original application on Loblolly. If I don't have the "points" (being competitive enough to win funding), then Longleaf could be a fall back option (I'm pretty sure that I would qualify using this option).
Thanks to all for your comments. It's good to be part of the Forestry Forum.
Mike
Pinestraw harvesting is very labor intensive and also removes nutrients that could be available for your trees. Also my NCRS guy says that it is not allowed when cost share money is involved. Just one more item to investigate while you are collecting data and making decisions.
Rocky, about 2-3 times a week, some times more, he is moving a little south. He is actively involved in writing Arkansas state management plans, and getting fairly good money for it, for a new kid.
I'll tell him you asked.
Like Lynn (Magicman) said, in Georgia, the NRCS does not allow pine straw harvesting on CRP longleaf plantations. Also, as pointed out, nutrient loss from strawing will necessitate fertilization, so add that about every five years once strawing commences to your economic model.
In my observations and experience, the financial yield on loblolly is better, just not as nostalgic/romantic as with longleaf.
Texas/Louisiana Longleaf Task Force – Todd Nightingale, Texas Forest Service, District Forester III, Hudson, TX
Longleaf pine (Pinus palustris) is an amazing tree species that prior to European settlement once dominated many forest landscapes throughout the south. There recently has been resurgence in interest in this forest type as it creates the open and park like forests many landowners seek for their own properties. Beyond the beautiful aesthetics this forest type creates it also is favorable for timber products, wildlife habitat, and recreational values.
Earlier this year a multi-stakeholder effort to support longleaf pine restoration was initiated by the U.S. Forest Service and Texas Forest Service. Both agencies agreed to oversee a multi-organizational effort to describe the collective and ongoing longleaf restoration activities in the East Texas area. An immediate action following this initial meeting was to include Louisiana partners in this effort. The Texas-Louisiana Longleaf Pine Task Force is comprised of natural resource professionals, agencies, partners and landowners that share the common goal of increasing acreage in longleaf pine. The primary focus has been to accelerate longleaf ecosystem restoration on private forestlands adjacent to public lands, and to support the larger, range-wide America's Longleaf Restoration Initiative, whose purpose is to increase longleaf pine acreage from 3.4 to 8.0 million acres in the next 15 years. A Range-wide Conservation Plan for Longleaf Pine serves to guide actions and strategies of the Initiative.
Since the first meeting there has been tremendous interest in coordinating efforts and reporting on successes that have occurred in this multi-state effort. Most recently a business meeting and field tour was held on September 30th in DeRidder, Lousiana to showcase mature timber management of longleaf pine by a private landowner. This event was followed by a natural resource professional and landowner field tour at Temple-Inland's Scrappin Valley and neighboring USFS and private landowner properties. This event highlighted coordinated efforts to expand longleaf pine on private, federal and industrial partners to truly manage on a landscape scale which has greater benefits than individual "islands" of management.
As the task force is in its infancy, it is now working to coordinate efforts to define more clearly their specific goals and what portion of the 8.0 million acre vision of the America's Longleaf Restoration Initiative they want to address. This will include efforts to maintain current stands, improve marginal stands of longleaf pine and establish new stands primarily on private landowner properties. Currently there are mapping efforts to determine the best sites to manage longleaf pine as well as to facilitate ongoing management and reforestation implementation. If you are interested in learning more or participating in the taskforce please visit http://www.txlalongleaf.org/ for contact information and upcoming events.
8)
This week I attended a conference on managing and growing longleaf pine hosted by the Longleaf Alliance (www.longleafalliance.org). It was excellent. I have some information on financial yields and pine straw potential. Good stands of planted longleaf that are managed for pine straw production from crown closure at about age 8 until first thinning at about age 20 can yield 200 bales of pine straw/acre/year on 2 out of every three years in that interval of time. After a first thinning, with time for recovery of a couple of years, the yields are even a little higher. With pine straw as a product, the financials are reasonably competitive.
What is pine straw ??? Inquieing mind would like the knowledge :P
Just pine needles.
:)
Must be a southern thing , cause I can't see what one would do with pine needles and how it could be profitable to rake um up ... Then again they also like grits ;D :) :)
I think they use it for mulch for landscaping, etc. I remember there were bales of it for sale at Ace hardware stores.
How long are your pine needles to be able to bale them . ???
Long leaf pine needles are usually 11-18".
Hence, long leaf 8)
Some of the locals call it "long straw pine" ;D.
Ok that would make it easier to bale then ours . :D
Here is a picture of a young longleaf stand that is being managed for pine straw production. Also, here is a picture of a young 5 year old longleaf that shows the needle length. In exceptional specimens, the needle length can exceed 20 inches.The average is more like 12 to 14 inches.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Longleafstraw.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/younglongleaf.jpg)
Mike, I have been working with the Soil and Water District for Polk County and they tell me they are interested in anyone wanting to plant long leaf. They say if in Polk or Tyler County that programs are available for long leaf planting.
Give them a call.
The guy in Tyler County with the long leaf plantation is Paul Poe. I think he lives in Jasper.
Thanks, I'll follow-up. As a FYI - I got an email response from Arborgen that longleaf seedling interest is increasing in East Texas from land owners that are replanting marginal farmland and have an interest in wildlife habitat.
As mentioned, I recently purchased the tract and I've decided to proceed with a clear cut to remove non merchantable timber and pulpwood size mixed timber (it had a really "hard" high grade timber cut a couple of years ago and not much merchantable is left). In fact, I'm having a hard time finding private foresters who might have an interest (since they normally work on a percentage basis). Although the economics are a little slower (compared to Loblolly), longleaf continues to interest me since it would allow me to restore the tract to its original condition. It's part of our old family homestead, so I have a sentimental perspective (like Magic man's ½ Longleaf family plot).
I appreciate the follow-up.
Mike
We have to make a living, as well. But I do have an hourly rate. ::)
The first thing I would recommend is that you get a forester to over see the clear cutting and reforestation on your land.
I have had some customers in the past that have researched a couple of things on the internet and then proceeded in making some mistakes that cost them much more than the forester would have. I am not saying that you would make these mistakes just that there is a lot of different things to look at when it comes to reforestation and a local forester will have the knowledge. Just my 2 cents.
Good advice! ;)
Jake (Customsawyer) has planted a bunch of longleaf. Get him to come over and plant it for you ;D.
If you are interested in information regarding management of longleaf pine, there are three information sheets available on the website below that you might like to read:
http://texasforestservice.tamu.edu/main/article.aspx?id=1183&ptaxid=146&dtaxid=164&taxid=178
Isawlogs, does this mean you're not going into business baling up Jack pine needles? :D
Sure would not like to take any work away from anybody out , so I will leave well enough alone. I'll stick to hay when times comes to ballin' anything. ;) :D
NEWS RELEASE
USDA-Natural Resources Conservation Service
Contact: Beverly Moseley, Public Affairs Specialist - Zone 4
beverly.moseley@tx.usda.gov
(979) 846-0757 ext. 3
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
November 10, 2010
NRCS Longleaf Pine Initiative Available to Private Landowners
Nov. 10, 2010 - Longleaf pine forests once covered millions of acres throughout the Southeastern United States. Today, only a few thousand acres of this vital habitat remains. To help sustain, enhance and restore longleaf pine forests, USDA's Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) Chief Dave White today announced the availability of more than $12 million to help private landowners in nine States restore and manage longleaf pine.
"The longleaf pine is one of our key native species; providing a home to hundreds of plant and animal species as well as being a tremendous economic resource," White said. "Restoring and expanding this species is only made possible through voluntary partnerships with conservation-minded landowners who share our goal of healthy forests."
The nine states included in the Longleaf Pine Initiative are Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas and Virginia.
Longleaf pine habitat can contain as many as 300 different species of groundcover plants per acre, and approximately 60 percent of the amphibian and reptile species found in the Southeast. Additionally, this forested habitat is home to at least 122 endangered or threatened plant and animal species including the fox squirrel, northern bobwhite, red-cockaded woodpecker and gopher tortoise.
"We've taken great steps toward conserving longleaf pine forests in Texas," said NRCS Texas Acting State Conservationist Salvador Salinas. "Through this initiative, and the great works of our landowners, we will be able to enhance and protect more of this essential habitat."
The Longleaf Pine Initiative will incorporate both technical and financial assistance providing $576,500 to help landowners in Texas improve habitat on agricultural land, nonindustrial private forest and Tribal land.
In Texas, highest priority will be given to land suitable for tree production in the following counties: Anderson, Angelina, Cherokee, Hardin, Houston, Jasper, Liberty, Montgomery, Nacogdoches, Newton, Polk, Sabine, San Augustine, San Jacinto, Shelby, Trinity, Tyler and Walker. Land outside these counties that is determined to be suitable for longleaf pine production will also be considered.
Approved participants will receive financial assistance for implementing conservation practices including planting longleaf pine, installing firebreaks, conducting prescribed burning and controlling invasive plants. Landowners can apply at their local NRCS office in the USDA Service Center.
A longleaf pine ecology workshop also will be held Dec. 2 at Stephen F. Austin State University in Nacogdoches. The workshop is tailored for consultants, landowners, Texas Forest Service (TFS), Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) employees or anyone who works with non-industrial private forest landowners. This is an excellent time to meet professionals that will share their knowledge of the longleaf pine ecosystem and the wildlife habitat it supports. This free event is hosted by NRCS and the TFS. For more information contact Nancy Posvar with NRCS at (254) 742-9880 or email Jeanna Childers at Jeanna.childers@tx.usda.gov.
Only a few thousand acres left? That is somewhat of an overstatement.
Quote from: WDH on October 03, 2010, 08:15:11 PMA lot of the longleaf restoration is a romantic attempt to return to the old ecosystem, but we have brainwashed the public for decades that fire in the forest is a bad thing. Plus, many longleaf restoration projects struggle because the longleaf is being planted on sites that it is not adapted to.
WDH - I am curious, because you have made statements like this several times concerning longleaf, what is the difference in a longleaf pine site versus loblolly, shortleaf, slash, etc? What did the original longleaf pine forests get turned into? All your different pine interest me but feel free to give the condensed version. Remember, I'm just a Yank to whom all these pine would probably look the same!
Clark
Before colonization, the southern landscape was burned by the native americans. There were extensive open savannas populated by scattered longleaf pine in the flatwoods and the lower coastal plains. On the more upland areas with good soils, stands of loblolly and shortleaf pine dominated but they were not as fire resistant. In the wettest areas, slash pine and pond cypress predominated. In the true bottomlands, the various hardwoods were found.
The better soils where the loblolly usually grew were mainly cleared for agriculture. Ultimately, people cleared the longleaf pine savannas for wet pasture and agriculture. Today, the flatwoods and lower coastal plains where the old longleaf savannas once thrived have been converted to loblolly and slash pine plantations, mainly loblolly because the longleaf system was low productivity from a timber volume standpoint. However, the savannas were diverse with a mix of animal and plant species that were uniquely adapted to the fire ecology. The settlers saw fire as a destructive force, and along with Smokey the Bear in later years, the fire ecology was destroyed.
The USDA is promoting restoration of longleaf. This is a FSA CRP type program with cost shares and annual rental payments. However, to qualify, you have to convert cropland back into longleaf. The rub is that many of these cropland sites were originally loblolly pine sites and longleaf is not as adapted to them. There have been many failures, but with some research, successful planting techniques have been developed.
My cynical comments apply to the notion that you can restore the old longleaf ecosystem the way it once was. That is not possible because humans will not tolerate the fire ecology. Fire and people do not mix well as populations increase, even rural populations. Burning expansive areas for longleaf management creates a host of people problems primarily around smoke management.
Without frequent fire, planting longleaf in rows is akin to planting loblolly in rows or any other crop. To restore the ecosystem with all the fire adapted birds, mammals, and reptiles along with all the bunch grasses, forbs, herbs, etc. one must burn on a managed cycle. In the more populated areas down here, you cannot even burn leaves anymore.
Like Thomas Wolfe wrote in a famous novel, "You Can't Go Home Again".
I sort of feel the same way for some of the animal species we are "restoring"; it's not that they can't be reintroduced, it's they won't prosper with all the human interactions we now have. You sure hit the proverbial nail on the head with longleaf......... We sometimes need to take a step back and pay attention to what we are really trying to accomplish.
Thanks WDH, that helps me understand the various roles the different pine played down south.
I figured as much about your comments, it seems that many gov't programs designed to help certain natural resources have good intentions but rarely hit the mark as well as they should have. The Forest Service spent thousands in the 1950's (or there abouts) in the lake states pulling gooseberry to reduce the impact of white pine blister rust. The intention was good but they should have spent the money re-establishing white pine. There are thousands of acres in northern MN with no white pine whatsoever and only 150 years ago white pine likely dominated. And we still have blister rust. The irony of it all is almost too much.
Clark
I was in the mountains of West Virginia looking at logging a few years ago. On one site, on the slope of the mountain, there was these enormous perfect cherry trees 24" - 36" in diameter and 100 feet tall. They were dominant logs in the stand, and there were quite a lot of them. It did not hit me till later, after walking in a newly clearcut area that was covered in natural cherry regeneration, that the reason for the big beautiful cherry trees being there was because these mountains had been clearcut 80 - 100 years ago and the cherry seeded in. Cherry is a pioneer species and is one of the first to get established in disturbed ground. It is ironic that the mountains of West Virginia was the place where the big anti-clearcut campaign started in the 1970's.
If those mountains had of been high graded instead of being clearcut, that cherry that is so desirable today would not even have been there. It would not have had the opportunity to seed back in as it did. What we do today has everything to do with what will be there tomorrow.
]2011 WHIP Longleaf Pine Federal Initiative Guidelines for Texas
Allocated Money: $576,500 in both technical and financial assistance
Priority Counties: Anderson, Angelina, Cherokee, Hardin, Houston, Jasper, Liberty, Montgomery, Nacogdoches, Newton, Polk, Sabine, San Augustine, San Jacinto, Shelby, Trinity, Tyler, Walker. Lands outside these counties that are determined to be suitable for growing Longleaf Pine will also be considered.
Approved Practices: Tree establishment, installation of firebreaks, conducting prescribed burns, herbicide application, and site preparation
Contact Length: Typical WHIP contract is for one to two years with some contracts extending for five years. For contracts longer than one year in length at least one conservation practice must be completed within the first 12 months of the contract period.
Example: If a landowner applies for practice 490 (tree/shrub site preparation) and practice 612 (tree/shrub establishment) and the contract length is for two years then practice 490 must be completed within the first 12 months of signing the contract. Practice 612 can be completed the following planting season if not sooner.
Cost Share Rate: WHIP contracts can cost share up to 75% of the NRCS approved practice cost but realistically landowners can expect to receive a 50% cost share of approved practices.
**Disclaimer**: Landowners should be made aware that if they enroll into the WHIP Longleaf Pine special initiative that LLP seedlings may not be available for two to three years. There is the possibility of LLP seedlings being transported from other southern nurseries depending on the demand and supply available. The lack of seedlings can be an issue for the landowner if they cannot get their enrolled acres established before the end of their contract.
Landowners will not be able to receive cost share assistance for seedlings until they are planted and the enrolled acres have passed inspection. There was hope that NRCS would break out the cost of seedlings from establishment cost to allow landowners to pre-order seedlings a year in advance and receive cost share assistance. NRCS has informed me that they cannot do that so if a landowner does pre-order and purchase their seedlings in advance then that landowner will have to carry that cost until the seedlings are planted.