Hi new to the forum, live in Northern, WI. I have been hanging out on the forum reading about chainsaws and OWB since August and really appreciate the wealth of knowledge on this site.
Background info: I own the Central Boiler E Classic 1400 120' run thermo pex to a 4100 sq ft. home that is very well insulated, hooked up to hot water heater, hydronic system 2 zone down stairs only and forced air covering the entire home. I have 120' of un insulate PEX running through my basement. I have the hydronic set at 67 downstairs and leave it at that temp and it heats the entire home to 67 and if it gets below 15 the forced air helps out. Filling the wood boiler to the ceiling when its in the negatives and its not making it 8 hrs. The wood is oak with a moisture content of about 25% and its cut about 16" and split to 4"-8" diameter. The basement isn't finished at this time.
Problem: Wood consumption when we get in the negative numbers requires an alarm to be set at 3am to fill the wood boiler, close the door to an upstairs room and the temp will drop to 58 in the room (we have pets and would like to keep them out of the bedroom).
Questions:
Would insulating the 120' run of pex in the house help out with wood consumption or am I throwing $200 out the window and will run into other issues like not enough heat demand when it warms up and have to start more fires from scratch on the warm days?
I know every house is different, we are very well insulated but have lots of glass. Am I saving money by having the downstairs hydronic heat the entire house (90% of the time the forced air never runs). or am I freezing in my bedroom and getting a higher electricity bill? I know this is a tough question and one that would be tricky to figure out. Trying to run efficently.
Do most people remove the metal pipes over the reaction chamber in order to keep a fire going or poke a hole every time you load and pray it doesn't get plugged overnight?
What are your OWB settings? Do you change them for different weather.
What do you do when you go away and no one is around to chuck wood?
I am guessing longer 20-25" drier sticks of wood will make life tolerable next year. I am finding most of my problems are an inadequate coal bed or a plugged reaction chamber.
Merry Christmas,
Kevin
Welcome to the forum. My 1st question is the unit big enough to handle the house at the cold temps. I am using a CB Classic 5648 in Missouri to heat a shop and 3000sq ft. house. Anything that you insulate would help. To what degree is the question.
Ron
mkjones32
Welcome to the forum.
The biggest improvement you can make if possible would be to get the wood dried down more. I'd guess you are losing about 30-50% of your heat value converting the moisture to steam.
Two years dry time to get your wood ready to burn will do wonders to your system.
Insulating can't hurt either.
Check the BTUs of your existing heating system. 1400 is only rated for 107459 BTU per hour for an 8 hour period. Sound like it's to small to do the job to me. Longer wood will help but not give you the 12 to 15 hour burn time you need :(
If you don't need to heat the basement, I'd insulate the pex to ensure the heat gets to where you need it. I don't think that will help with your 8 hr burn time, but it might help keeping you warm. I'm surprised that you are only getting that and would expect 12 hour burn times, but you might be pushing the stove to the limit.
thats what i think to, i think u should of got the 2300. did your dealer say that a 1400 would work for u it sounds like alot of house to heat with a 1400
While I agree with all concerns listed before me, I also have concerns that you furnace is not operating well. Do you get gasification or not? Does it smoke continually? Have you done all the maintenance chores required to keep these things running well. Finally, after burning wood that's real dry, and wood that's in the MC range of 20-22%, these downdrafters like dry wood. I would write a personal message to Dean186, who is pleased with his e-1400. I have no doubt that he'll see this thread, but a little nudge wouldn't hurt.
Just scroll down the list of topics under the Alternative heading, and you find a thread or two started by him. Open the thread, click on his name, and look for the personal message link. Very easy. Doctorb
Welcome to the forum. Your uninsulated pipes in the basement are emitting about 5000btu's per hour into the basement if you have 180* water running thru the system. Equal to 9' of baseboard heat. When you close the door to any room when it is cold outside the room will get cold.[ lack of air circulation]It is best in cold weather to leave all doors to rooms open. This will help prevent pipes from freezing. I recommend to open closet doors in the coldest weather so heat pipes that run thru them will not freeze. The best time to close off rooms to save energy is in mild weather. A 4100 ' house very well insulated could be 80,000 btu's per hour but with a lot of glass and not spray foam insulated it could be over 125,000 btu's per hr. I agree with doctorb . Start with, is it operating properly, and maintaining maximum water temp . I have seen forced air heating systems installed in the attics above the the house ceiling insulation, if yours is installed this way that could be part of the problem. If it is installed in the basement with not ducts in the attic that would be much better. Holmes
The other thing that makes me scratch my head is you probably have the 1" thermopex and not the 1 1/4". I believe that is what is plumbed out of the 1400. I'm not sure of how to calc it, but you probably can't move 100k per hour 120' with the smaller piping. That is one thing that irritates me with CB. They seem to go the minimum on the pipe sizing. Both my dealer and the guy I talked to at the factory wondered why I wanted to go with the 1 1/4" when I didn't NEED it. Same thing with a flatplate HX (I didn't wind up using one in my instal), I was looking at 80 plates instead of 30. No matter how you shake it, a point of exchange is a point of loss, to minimize the loss, go with the biggest exchanger you can afford.
Bottom line is...I think you are maxing out your system, boiler AND UG pex, not just your boiler. If you were recommended all this by your dealer, and not the 2300/2400, I'd be ticked. Heck your situation might even warrant the new 3200, especially if you intend to add a garage or other outbuilding on to your boiler at some point.
mkjones- The points made by Holmes and ken999 are 100% sound. It's like an equation:
The amount of heat you need has to be < the amount of heat you can produce /deliver (furnace size / inefficiency of operation / pipe diameter) - heat loss within the system (heat exchange / insulation).
You've got a lot of things to look into to make it right.
I am very interested in Holmes' comments regarding insulation of the basement pipes. My unheated basements (yes, 2 of them) are now warm becasue of the piping for this system. I inquired about insulating the pipes and my plumber told me that, while there is heat losss, it would take a long time to recoup the cost of the insulation of these pipes. His theory was that the water moved through the pipes at a rate that, while heat is lost, it did not affect the ability to deliver the heat to the heat exchanger. The numbers posted by Holmes would seem to contradict that. My gut reaction was, and still is, to insulate the pipes, not because of freezing, but beacuse of energy loss.
The other way to look at it is that, maybe my plumber was rght, becasue I am not maxing out my 2300 to heat my 4500 square foot home, despite the inefficiencies of 2 basements with two exchangers, etc. Becasue of that, I am not overly optomistic that just insulating the basement pipes will necessarily chage the difficulties posted by mkjones. Doctorb
Doctorb I agree with your plumber,your heating system is doing its job well, losing heat into your cellars is beneficial for you. .You are getting "free" heat inside your house that is good. The heat loss thru the pipes at mkjones is not keeping him from heating his house. He has a few problems that need to be sorted out. Holmes
Wouldn't 24" lengths compared to 16" give you 1/3rd more wood in your firebox?
I think 24" is what C.B. recommends for max. length.
Maybe this would extend your burntime...... just a thought.
Good luck and Merry Christmas!
WOW! Never thought I would get this many replies this quick or ever! I did some cutting and splitting today (576xp AT), yeah I know its overkill for firewood but what a difference over my 460 Rancher, like a hot knife through butter. Thinking of trading in the Rancher and getting a 357XP, can really tell the quality difference. I still need to figure out hand sharpening without a guide. I am hoping Santa brings a Granberg File and Joint for christmas and I will ween myself from there. I now have about 3/4 of a face of 20" long wood to give a try, I am going to wait till its below zero and see if it makes a difference. I hate getting up in the middle of the night for a bathroom break and wondering if the OWB is out of wood or the fire is out when its real cold.
I placed an order for some Armaflex with my Central Boiler dealer. If the 20" wood works better, I will give the 24" a try. I have about 7 cords of standing dry logs (3-4 yr.) oak missing the bark in my driveway about 25% MC. I put the rods back in the OWB and make sure to poke a hole in the grates, seems to work much better with the rods back in it. I hit a reaction temp high of 1480 after putting them back in. I think my problems earlier this fall were caused by high MC wood, a well insulated house and low to no heat demand. I think I would have really suffered badly with a 2300.
If the longer wood and the extra pipe insulation don't help, I will try to strike a trade with my CB dealer for a 2300 in the spring. I am sure that will fly like a lead balloon, the wife still hasn't bought into this OWB yet and thinks the waste of time is not worth the savings. I spent my tax credit buying wood, 14 logger cords of oak. I have about half cut split and stacked. I told her we need to get ahead 2 years, the wood will be dryer when we go to use it and we will have to work less hard at all this. She will see, it will pay off. I think that I am starting to get to the end of my learning curve on this unit and feel more confident every time I make it through the night with wood left over and hot coals.
Thank you so much for the replies, means a lot that so many people would take the time to write! Much appreciated. Merry Christmas to all!
Good thought - hockeyguy. I am still concerned that the furnace is not meeting the heat demands. I used to place "short" wood end to end in my 2300. You could almost double the wood inside the firebox by stacking it in the back first and then in the front. I worry about efficiency of the burn here, whether due to stove issues or due to fuel issues. Does the furnace ever cycle out of high burn and idle or not? If its not permitting the water temp to reach its upper level and trigger the shut off of the furnace, then there's a problem with the stove or its fuel. The e-1400 has a water jacket large enough that, when up to temp, should last a little while between the need for firing up again!
Just saw your last post! My wife was skeptical too...then the hot water was warmer and the house was warmer and now she is a happy customer. No, she has yet to feed the monster but my kids do. It has taken a little time but she's bought into it now, and she can see that I am saving a bunch of money that we used to throw away on oil. Might I suggest that you plan a trip in the spring with the money you saved? You might scorre a few points!.
I am very surprised that standing split, stacked oak that is 3-4 years out has a MC of 25%. I might borrow a moisture meter and recheck that. That figure is just too high, IMO. Doctorb
Instead of burning high MC 24" wood, just hold your stack of dry 16" wood tight to the door and roll 16" peices cross ways behind the stack to really fill the firebox.
mkjones32,
I had the same problems this fall with high m.c. and low demand.
Once I started using wood that was better seasoned, got cold out and my d.h.w. was hooked up, I haven't had any problems.
Mastering the coal bed is key. Too deep of a bed and you'll get heavy smoke and have a hard time getting it to gassify. I need to start attending reaction chamber anonymous meetings as I must check that thing 10 times a day to make sure she's gassin.
After much frustration in October, I'm at a point now where this thing pretty much runs itself. I load at 7 am and at 7 pm. Every couple of days I'll give it a good scape down and empty the r.c. about once a week. I do check each fillup to make sure all the airholes are clear. Plenty of d.h.w. and a house that's warmer than ever is making this all seem worthwhile, especially now that oil is over $3.00 a gallon here.
Hang in there, it sounds like you're making progress!
mkjones32,
Our E-classic 1400 is heating a 4,300 square foot home here in the mountains of Colorado without any problems. I have never had to add wood more frequently than 12 hours intervals and I only have softwood to burn. I am currently making it 24 hours on a load of pine with night temperatures in low teens and day temperatures in low 40's.
I need to expand on my 4,300 sq foot statement. There are a total of 7 zones on this heating system. The basement is 1,300 sq foot of that total and it is insulated, finished and on its own heating zone. There are two garden level windows in the basement, but the basement still doesn't require much heat. We have two upstairs bedrooms that are shut off from the rest of the house. The thermostat controlling those two rooms is set at 45 degrees. The rest of the house has the thermostats set to 68 degrees minimum. The house is a well insulated 2x6 constructed home built in 1989. There are several windows and a couple sky lights that account for our biggest heat loss. We do get some solar gain from our south facing windows.
The most important statement I could make is the house was designed with a 160,000btu boiler to heat the home and the domestic hot water. So, our outdoor wood burning furnace is replacing a 160,000 btu boiler without any problems. Our indoor boiler will not come on during the operation of the outdoor furnace, unless of course the fire goes out. My dealer has sold the model 1400 to heat similar size homes.
Quote from: mkjones32 on December 23, 2010, 11:11:32 PM
I hate getting up in the middle of the night for a bathroom break and wondering if the OWB is out of wood or the fire is out when its real cold.
I have a thermometer with probe on manifold where it comes in the house and display in kitchen by fridge. It reads about 10 degrees less than display on my CL 40. This saves a lot of trips to check.
Will
Quote from: wiam on December 25, 2010, 08:47:28 PM
I have a thermometer with probe on manifold where it comes in the house and display in kitchen by fridge. This saves a lot of trips to check.
I have the same setup and I'm not sure what I would do without it. I would highly recommend a digital thermometer located on the main level of the house close to kitchen or common area that displays incoming water temperature. Every time I'm in the kitchen I glance at the temperature.
I'd like to have additional controls/displays in the house as well....after running the boiler for a year, I can appreciate the handiness of such things... ;D
Quote from: mkjones32 on December 22, 2010, 04:40:38 PM
Do most people remove the metal pipes over the reaction chamber in order to keep a fire going or poke a hole every time you load and pray it doesn't get plugged overnight?
No, I haven't heard of anyone removing the 3 metal bars in the bottom of the firebox over the reaction chamber in the E-Classic 1400. I would think removing them would cause a problem. The bars are installed by design and I couldn't see any advantage in removing them. I never have a problem with it plugging, at least not to the point where the fire would go out. I sometimes poke a hole through the coal bed when loading wood, but not often.
Agree with Dean186. Removing the bars will alow less completely burned coals to easily spill into the RC. While they may, for the most part, burn there, the RC will fill quicker with these pieces rather than the final "dust" of wood combustion. I think the idea is to have an air space, just below the coal bed, where Dean's blow torch (final combustion) can thrive. Filling that space with incompletely burned coals, versus the residue ash, will, IMHO, not be good for stove efficiency and gasification. The purpose of those rods is to keep the coals above the RC. I would not remove them and alter that plan. doctorb
Unless you have an updated model, my 2008 E2300 has both 1" bars removed from the bottom. I found them to be a pain in the butt when trying to clean and scrape the coals. I took one out, nothing changed, took both out, nothing changed except easier to clean. When I clean the reaction chamber I rarely find coals left over, usually a nice fine white ash.
At each filling I run the CB pole/hoe bar end down the hole to make sure its not plugged off. Thats the best tool CB has produced and has last 3 years so far! Heavy duty and worth every penny I spent on it back then. I bought the rake style bar and it sits in the rack and has never been used.