This was good for a broken leg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUIGBS7B7WY
Ouch!!
That you Kevin?
No, that's not Kevin. :) Didn't you guys get a chance to meet at the pig roast?
That feller seems to have had a premonition that there were a lot of things that were apt to go wrong there.
Apparentely not in a Bleue influenced state of mind. ::)
I didn't get much of a chance to talk neither, and I never had any influence of Bleue. :D
That's ugly!
ouch, it pays to always think things through.
It was almost like that tree said, "Okay buddy, take this!"
Everyone starting out is going to experience a limb tipping sooner or later.
I think you have to experience it to appreciate it and once it happens you don't forget it but hopefully it's a close call and not what happened to this guy.
The limb was rigged wrong, cut wrong and the guy had no safety line or equipment.
It usually takes a series of things for an accident to happen and this is proof of that.
It's good that it was captured by the camera so someone else might learn from it.
A good reminder!
You know, at the beginning of this I was saying in my mind at least three times "no, don't do that!!". Too high on the ladder, too unstable and then when he started to cut, I just knew what would happen next.
I guess when you have dropped thousands of trees you sort of get an instinct that screams out at you... :-\
I agree, instinct because you have seen or had experienced it before and your gut feeling telling you to do something different.
DanG DanG DanG makes me want tob be more careful the next time i saw something that is for sure..OUCH
Did ya notice that that Stihl saw was still runnin'? ;D
Let me ask this.... What caused that limb to tip back like that wind?
Quote from: Raider Bill on December 30, 2010, 02:38:17 PM
Let me ask this.... What caused that limb to tip back like that wind?
Gravity.
But where it was tied off wrong left it nowhere else to go, but kick back in his direction.
I also think, like the water wands, that the limb will kick back to wherever your ladder is placed. :)
I'm curious, who reset the video camera to a different recording position or zoom setting? The victim? And how did this guy get out of the tree? maybe the same way the saw made it to the ground? Ouch!!
Quote from: Raider Bill on December 30, 2010, 02:38:17 PM
Let me ask this.... What caused that limb to tip back like that wind?
His own rope that he had rigged to try an control the fall. Once he cut through the limb he was left with a pendulum, a heavy one, swinging towards him. :-\
Any video that starts with someone climbing a ladder with a chainsaw is pretty much certain to end badly.....
Ian
My uncle was about to saw limbs from a ladder until I pointed out that the limb was short and heavy and would likely swing under the rest of the limb on hinge wood that he was cutting it from and knock him and saw to the ground. So he listened to his nephew after I showed him what he was setting himself up for.
Oh man oh man oh man. Why was he cutting like that? I'm not a professional like a lot of you guys but you still wouldn't have caught me doing that.
Bill, his rope was too low on the branch, it should have been way up closer to the tip.
That branch is top heavy and wants to swing the butt upwards to reach a balancing point.
It started it's swing and was stopped by his leg and the tree.
You can see later on in the video where the butt is way up in the air resting at balance.
If he had a little more experience he would have seen it coming.
One other problem was where he tied the rope to the tree, it's causing the branch to swing back towards him.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10030/mishap.JPG)
If your interested, that long cut on his leg was not for the insertion of hardware to stabilize the fracture. That wound is called a fasciotomy (meaning to cut the fascia, which is the strong fibrous covering of the muscles) and that part of his operation was performed to release pressure within his leg. Did you see the little shiny skin staples on the very small wounds down by his ankle? Those small wounds are used to insert screws through the bone to interlock with a rod (also called nail) that was placed down the marrow cavity of his tibia. So this guy initially had a cleanout of the open fracture of his tibia, followed by an interlocking nailing of the tibia. Too much pressure developed within the calf, which can shut down the blood flow to the tissues, so a fasciotomy was performed to release the tissue pressure (The development of too much pressure within the soft tissues that threatens blood supply is called a compartment syndrome - which is what he had!). The calf swells like crazy, and the fasciotomy wound is left open with a VAC dressing, that black sponge you see. The swelling is great enough that you couldn't close this fasciotomy wound with a winch. After the second operation, days later when the swelling has subsided, they were able to close the wound with all those sutures.
Note the two different configuations of sutures. The very wide (large bites of tissue)sutures on his calf are called retention sutures. These are used to pull together tissue that can't easily be approximated and sewn with usual techniques, due to swelling. These large sutures are placed first, to yank the wound back together and counteract the tension withn the tissues when skin closure is attempted, and then the rest of the smaller sutures are placed to close the wound itself. Actually, I've never seen this before. :D Just kiddin'
I missed the rope first time around. Makes sense the way you guys explained it.
Doc B, Brother some of your posts make me cringe. That's some graffic stuff there. smiley_alcoholic_01 ;D ;D
Pretty interesting though............
The link is missing on my screen?
Bill
I actually hesitated before being so graphic, but the FF crowd seems to like to know details. They are an exacting group. I didn't post it to make those with gentler stomachs a little queasy, but that guy's leg represents about 25 years of my ortho trauma experience, and I couldn't help myself. I hope some find it enlightening, and the others find forgiveness. :) Doctorb
QuoteDid you see the little shiny skin staples on the very small wounds down by his ankle?
I had my eyes closed for most of the video.
I stopped watching after the pinch.
doctorb
I did appreciate your description. Made sense, and I didn't look long at the video part. Enough to see the nurse saying this might hurt a bit.... :o :o
Pretty amazing what all Dr's have to do to save a leg and not lose it. And hard to imagine the concentration and very careful procedures that obviously have to be meticuously carried out.
I've about all I can skillfully handle using a knife just deboning a deer. Don't have to worry about blood vessles, tendons, nerves, or putting it back nice and neat. :)
Thanks
When a nurse or Doc say either this is going to pinch or hurt a bit buckle up it's going to hurt.
Doc, it's great having you around. I'll just close my eyes during the scary part :D Historically when asked if I want a nerve block so I can watch or full blown knock me out I always for for sleep time with a extra kick. ;)
Quote from: doctorb on December 30, 2010, 07:45:33 PM
Bill
I actually hesitated before being so graphic, but the FF crowd seems to like to know details. They are an exacting group. I didn't post it to make those with gentler stomachs a little queasy, but that guy's leg represents about 25 years of my ortho trauma experience, and I couldn't help myself. I hope some find it enlightening, and the others find forgiveness. :) Doctorb
DocB, I appreciate the details. To this day, I carry a rod inside my tibia and 4 pins, 2 right above the ankle, and 2 right below to the knee. I shattered my tibia playing football many years ago. I was told at the time that the pins should come out but insurance and money ran out, and I never did.
A couple of years ago, a doc told me that it might be a good idea to take the rod out, so the bone could flex naturally. I wasn't sure about that because it is major surgery to take the knee apart and pull that rod. My knee was the thing that took the longest to heal!
I would really like to have the pins/screws removed sometime. I used to be a good skater but now the cuffs of the skates rub the flesh over the screw heads and it hurts something fierce. :(
Warbird-
You are flying a little high there. I'll be hapy to bring you down to earth regarding your tibial nail and screws.
1. It is not major surgery to remove the screws. If they hurt, have them out. Simple outpatient stuff. Minimal recovery time. Walk on it full weight bearing right away. If only the screws are causing you symptoms, only have them out, nothing else.
2. It is not major surgery to have the nail removed. We do not "take the knee apart". You are right, the knee and the patellar tendon do need some rehab after removal, but it is minor for any active individual. We take out tibial nails as outpatients often now. Did 2 this week.
3. If the nail is buried inside your tibia, you can not feel it. The insides of bones have minimal pain fibers. The screw heads and screw tips (outside the bone)can be irritating, especially to outside pressure, like a boot. The proximal end of the nail can be left a little prominent where it enters the tibia at the knee sometimes. If that's so, and you have pain at the nail insertion site, I'd suggest pulling the nail.
4. We used to worry about the change in bone flexibility (called the modulus of elasticity) with plates and screws or nails have been inserted. We are no longer concerned about this issue. The longer the device has been attached to you, the more the bone has remodeled around it. If yours has been in for years, then the bone is barely "recognizing" that it's there, if at all. So we don't remove these things as a matter of routine any longer. Symptoms related to the hardware are the key indication for removal.
5. Sometimes the tenderness over the screw heads near the ankle can be irritation form the sugery of a skin nerve, which supplies sensation over the inside of the ankle joint. If the inside of your ankle feels fuzzy, or if you get electric shocks in this area, screw removal may not necessarily help.
Next time your in Baltimore, or maybe at the pigroast, I would be happy to oblige. Why don't you take a digital photo of your tibial x-rays and send them to me? Doctorb
Wow doc... I'm speechless. The doc here told me removing the screws would be easy as long as bone hadn't grown up around them. The surgery to install all of this was done in the early 90's.
He did tell me that removing the 'nail' would require recovery time. I'm very gun shy about having it removed, based on how traumatic it was having it installed. My calf was swollen like you wouldn't believe (they didn't have to cut open my leg like the poor fellow in the video, though). It is as you said, the nail extends a little bit into the knee.
The only pain I have is arthritis flaring up now and again around the break and if the Mrs accidentally rolls over in her sleep and kicks the screw heads. Sometimes, in extreme cold, I swear I can feel the cold radiating into my tibia through the screws.
I do not have personal copies of those particular x-rays. Let me call the clinic and if I can get a copy and/or just a picture of them, I will send them to you. Getting the screws removed would be an improvement to my lifestyle, I just haven't been able to afford it, what with saving up for the adoption and the fear of having to walk around with a cane for a while.
Warbird-
The swelling you had was from the fracture, not the nail. You don't have a fracture any more so swelling won't be an issue at all.
If the nail is prominent it makes it easier to remove, not harder. Many patients equate their experience from the injury and recovery to hardware removal as if you are "doing it all over again." While that fear makes sense, it's not the reality. Most are pleasantly surprised at the difference in the two surgeries.
Sounds like the pigroast is a good place to assemble the FF surgical team! Doctorb
LOL LOL Sounds like it, between my leg and Jeff's shoulder. Just to clarify, you don't operate with chainsaws, right? ;D
No- the chain lubricant is not conducive to sterility. However, we have a full array of air powered, battery powered and electrically powered saws, reamers, drills......even some diamond bits to cut through metal. Hot lights, hot steel. :D
My toes curl and things want to retreat when I read that stuff. :-X :-\
Now it's hot lights and hot steel. Jeesch! and all before breakfast. :D
Bill
The metal only gets hot when you have to cut it. Otherwise, cold steel.
My youngest son just had 9 screws and a plate removed from his shoulder that repaired a colar bone break. The hardware had been in his shoulder for a few years after a biking injury. The screws in the shoulder were bothering him while back packing etc. when the pack straps would rub on the screws.
I must be a real *ss because I watch that video and laugh , I don't know I have a sick sense of humor I guess , kind of seemed bad right off the bat him climbing up the ladder with the saw on fast idel and I swear it looked to me like the chain was actually spinning as he was going up , have to hand to the guy though he made a great vid of how not to do it :D :D
doctorb , it is so great to have a medical expert to provide the details , kudos to you for being able to look at that stuff all the time if that is what you do . I have assisted on one heck of a lot of surgerys , but it was all animals of every variety! :D :D
Quote from: doctorb on December 30, 2010, 11:25:10 PM
Sounds like the pigroast is a good place to assemble the FF surgical team! Doctorb
Doc,
You are drafted for the Pig Disassembly Team for sure at the next Pig Roast!
Quote from: WDH on December 31, 2010, 10:30:47 PM
Quote from: doctorb on December 30, 2010, 11:25:10 PM
Sounds like the pigroast is a good place to assemble the FF surgical team! Doctorb
Doc,
You are drafted for the Pig Disassembly Team for sure at the next Pig Roast!
Now this topic has changed to food. What a gritty bunch. ;D Holmes
QuoteI just haven't been able to afford it,
Shucks, Warbird. I can help you get those screw out right now. Remember, righty-tighty, lefty-loosy. ;)
Doc, are those things usually a Phillips head or one of those DanG-blasted star drive things. :P
Allen screws I bet. :)
So I just watched the video.Couple of things come to mind,what was he going to do with the limb when it was cut and hanging from his rope? where was his PPE? and I bet he wishes he had paid the arborist the 150.00 he was probably quoted to do that job.If you notice the ladder was not extended he probably could have done that whole limb with a decent polesaw.I think he is lucky to have gotten out of that with just a broken leg.
Our screws used be Phillips-like, but changed to a head with a depressed hexagon decades ago. The newer screws have a star. I prefer the hex head because its easier to get the screw driver into the screw. You have to be perfectly aligned with the star,and while that,s easy when you are putting the screws in, we try to take them out with "minimal" dissection, so you don't get a clean look at the screw head sometimes. The hex head finds the screw head better.
How much assembly and dis-assembly takes place at the pig roast? I can't believe this group lacks for power tools.
Quote from: doctorb on December 31, 2010, 12:09:17 AM
No- the chain lubricant is not conducive to sterility. However, we have a full array of air powered, battery powered and electrically powered saws, reamers, drills......even some diamond bits to cut through metal. Hot lights, hot steel. :D
Sure it is, do as we do when pruning, use vegetable oil. If you aren't certain it is sterile, just heat it up in the fryer first... :-X
Doc,
The disassembly is all done with cold steel by hand. You should be a natural at it :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/P1030053.JPG)
what a motley crew!
Like everybody, I suppose, I hate to show my ignorance. What is a PPE? Did he need the rope at all? I would assume he didn't want the limb to land on something in the yard. Wouldn't he have been better off without the rope? It seemed to me that he'd overthought himself right into a severe crush fracture of the tibia.
Oh, by the way, is that a dog mopping up in the picture? Just scrounging, I suppose....or worse. :D Doctorb
QuoteOh, by the way, is that a dog mopping up in the picture?
From the looks of that crew the poor dog is going to have a bad day.
Quote from: doctorb on January 03, 2011, 08:35:51 AM
What is a PPE?
Personal protective equipment - chaps, hard hat etc. Or, in your case, latex gloves. :D
I don't think Latex is the weapon of choice any longer is it?
Latex - only a weapon when used in certain situations not mentionable here.
What about the rope? I mean, this guy was thinking about this quite a bit to tie that rope up there and then videotape it. He would have been better off climbing out on the limb and then cutting it behind him. His injuries from the fall, excluding what the running chain saw potentially could have done, would probably not been as severe as he got. Doctorb
We don't get to see what is under the tree. Usually, if you are going to rope something down, its to keep it from falling on and damaging what is under it. Garden? Shed? Who knows.
Or the rope may have been there to prevent the limb from falling before the cut was finished and splitting down the side of the tree. The alternative is to undercut the limb first but that usually results in a pinched saw. ::)
Doc,
It is indeed a dog. It is Icey, the official dog of the Forestry Forum Pig Roast ;D.
us pig cutter uppers figured if Icey wouldn't eat it, it could only be consumed by the pig cutter uppers
Quote from: Dan_Shade on January 03, 2011, 06:38:32 PM
it could only be consumed by the pig cutter uppers
The rule is that the pig cutter uppers never get to sample the product while doing the cutting uppping ( :) :) :) :) ::)).
Now I don't remember that rule! In fact I think in the recruitment poster it talks about how you can eat while you work. :) The pig assemblers are discouraged from eating though. ;)
I much prefer the Disassembly Team ;D.
Quote from: WDH on January 03, 2011, 10:21:04 PM
Quote from: Dan_Shade on January 03, 2011, 06:38:32 PM
it could only be consumed by the pig cutter uppers
The rule is that the pig cutter uppers never get to sample the product while doing the cutting uppping ( :) :) :) :) ::)).
Man what a crock! Every time I looked over there Danny was cutting and eating cutting and eating....... Doc B you don't do that do you?
yer a sick puppy Bill :D :D :D
I thought I had been asked, by this time in my career, about everything that could be asked about surgery. That question is in entirely uncharted territory for me! WOW! :o :o :o :D
Welcome to the Forestry Forum Doc! 8)
and while I got you on the phone I got this itch................... :D :D
Some of this is easy.....
If it hurts when you do something....don't do it.
If your skin is dry, put some lotion on it.
If your skin is moist, air it out.
If you have an itch, scratch it, but not too much.
If your face hurts, it's killin' me.
Who needs med school anyway! 8)
:D :D :D
You guys are a hoot. LOL
Quote from: Raider Bill on January 04, 2011, 10:19:36 AM
Man what a crock! Every time I looked over there Danny was cutting and eating cutting and eating....... Doc B you don't do that do you?
Doc,
Please wait for the pig to try this :).
Quote from: WDH on January 03, 2011, 10:21:04 PM
Quote from: Dan_Shade on January 03, 2011, 06:38:32 PM
it could only be consumed by the pig cutter uppers
The rule is that the pig cutter uppers never get to sample the product while doing the cutting uppping ( :) :) :) :) ::)).
Whatever happened to quality control?!?! There has to be quality control!