Hello All,
I have a chance to saw up some larch logs, but I have no clue what they can be used for. If anyone knows please let me know.
Thanks
John
I just finished an outdoor deck and my neighbor did his kitchen/dining room floor in larch.
We've never used larch too much around here. In fact I can't remember ever using it. But I have seen some larch species used for flooring, fence post, framing, roofing. But, again no one around these parts is too fond of it. It's more rot resistant than spruce, hemlock or northern pines, but can be twisty cork screwy stuff when drying.
Depends to some degree on the type of larch but it is real good for wet locations. In this country fence posts is a common use partly because getting sizable larch is pretty tough but also the tendency to twist. if you get it mill and fastened down quick it makes a very durable and long lasting low maintenance out door deck. Also good for a dock but again get it cut, milled, in place and very well fastened.
If you are willing to cut the cants and let it dry it can make some very nice flooring and furniture but it can be a bit of PIA to mill and work with too. If your patient you will have a unique finished product.
We used to put Larch/ Tamarack up for pulpwood, i cut thou's of cords of it, loaded in on railroad cars.
I cut one over in the Chippewa N F that was 36", over by Third river, that was one big Larch.
All the old buildings, barns ect were framed in with sawed tamarack in Mn.
In the late 1800, early 1900 Tamarack was used for railroad ties.
I used it for firewood, when i could get it, it was the only thing I'd burn.
I cut Larch logs in Mt., up in the Yaak, north of the Dirty Shame Saloon, north of Libby, Mt.
Up here cedar was for fencing, and spruce, sometimes hemlock in the old days, was for building. Most people around here don't even want to use fir if they can get spruce.
they used a lot of it on the coast here for seawalls.....decking on docks. most of the pillings were oak. now the story i heard and if i am wrong maybe swamp will know. how the europian larch diesise got started here in maine . they imported some larch from europe to build the docks in eastport.......any truth to it????????
We have a larch log cabin next to our land which was built in 1928 and is still in great shape.
Twisted grain can be a problem. From what I've seen (just looking at logs/stems) its highly dependent on geographic region. I've jet to find one twisted grained larch on my property (Downeast Maine). I've seen some growing in Upstate NY that look like giant corkscrews.
I'm not an experience sawyer, but I'm currently sawing some larch right now. So far not too many problems. I think the sap wood tends to release some funky tension when you cut through it. I've read that the best applications are for those products that use the trees natural shape as possible (cants and beams where you only slabed off as little wood as possible. Its exceptionally strong, and gets used in post and beam buildings when you need something really strong.
They also use it in boat building. Ships knees and planking. Its generally regarded as a waterproof wood. I've also heard it makes good barn decking because it holds up to animal urine well. I'd probably stay away from any 1" material.
I'd like to hear more about this Eastport theory. Sounds interesting.
Quote from: snowstorm on February 28, 2011, 07:53:17 PM
they used a lot of it on the coast here for seawalls.....decking on docks. most of the pillings were oak. now the story i heard and if i am wrong maybe swamp will know. how the europian larch diesise got started here in maine . they imported some larch from europe to build the docks in eastport.......any truth to it????????
I guess I've not heard of it. We have sawfly, budworm and beetles in tamarack. I think Jeff has the start of a wave a bugs up at his woods in the UP. Back east here, I have not noticed any disease. I have seen sawfly wipe out 100 acres of tamarack around Moose Mountain Lake. I have killed some on my yard trees to, mass of green worms with yellow stripes in mid summer. I do have a European larch on the lawn, the sapsuckers killed by Japanese larch. I planted about 3000 tamarack seedlings in the wetlands on my woodlot. These areas were cedar harvest. Tamarack will grow on water it seems (not in the literal sense), but cedar will tolerate it well to and lives a lot longer. No, I guess I have never heard to disease story. European larch has been grown in plantations here for at least 50 years. Not too much on a commercial scale however, just experimental farms for the most part. I guess they wanted to see how it performed. The Acadian Experimental Station in Noonan, near Fredericton, has some really nice European and Japanese Larch. Our tamarack seem to be more like corkscrews around here. You look a the young stems and it looks like someone twisted them. It's a spiralling grain.
Strictly speaking of native eastern larch/tamarack. I think it is also site. Fields (or once fields) and plantation usually yield corkscrew quality. In tight forest grown stands it's much nicer looking especially if a little sandy.
I have seen some nice stands up here and I have seen some on fast growing sites. Where the trees out grew the spruce and fir in height and girth, but the darn limbs were 20 feet long and big. And grew like corkscrews.
post and beam barns is where ive found it most. usually with just one side sawn or hewed flat, then shaped on each end for the appropriate joint.
found out this afternoon that the local power line contractors still use tamarack(when they can get it) for power poles in the peat and bog areas that they have to build power lines in around this part of the province. Apparently the stuff is pretty scarce in the size they need so it can be pricey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larch
some info from wiki for what it is worth.
Thanks to all of you! :) That was a big help. I love FF 8)
My guess is that since he's from PA, that those aren't eastern larch, but may well be European larch. They put them in plantations starting in the '30s. Very little native larch around.
Structural beams and knees in boatbuilding. The root stems are sought after to saw out knees, stems, etc. There is a farm in St. Albans, Maine that harvests tamarack just for that prupose.
Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on February 28, 2011, 06:57:31 PM
In this country fence posts is a common use partly because getting sizable larch is pretty tough but also the tendency to twist.
Do you need to dry larch posts before you use them? Or any species for fence posts for that matter?
Usually cedar was only semi dried in a pulp pile, laying in the grass. But I have seen it used green. One old timer had basically a rock wall around his barn yard pasture, probably 2 feet deep. One day I saw he was digging in the rock by hand and putting in 6" diameter cedar posts, about 8 feet long, with the bark still on. I was looking at some thinning going on in his woods and saw this on the drive in. I didn't dare stop and talk for fear of having to help drive them stakes. :D :D :D
The greenish heartwood is supposed to be naturally rot resistant. I used to saw it for local fishermen to use for building lobster traps. It's nice and heavy and it's supposed to turn dark quite fast when underwater.
The Larch posts that UFA sells (when they have em) are about as dry as you can get them in a year or less. They process at the pole plant about as fast as they come off the the logging truck and then get them loaded and shipped to the UFA yard at about the same rate. Harvested in the winter and most of them will be in the ground by the end of that same June.
Some of the sawyers should be able to tell you how much a difference there is between native tamarack and the Japanese and European larches. I suspect there is a great deal of difference. I know that a lot of larch has been planted in Scotland.
I planted 10 000 larches about 13 years ago, they are doing well. The Norway spruce and white pine I put in were attacked by white pine weevil.
The Germans use larch as a nurse planting to improve conditions for hardwoods, planting them at wide spacing. I have always wanted to try planting them at about 20 X 20´ft spacing in south central NY to encourage hardwoods.
Does anyone have experience with this? Or insight?
Our hardwood sites around here grow so thick with shade tolerant hardwood, that the only chance a larch has is in the ditches and areas of wetness where the trees are sparse. All you need is a nice brush saw and start thinning at the right timing and spacing. If you plant larch on an old field it will soon be accompanied by white birch, aspen, ash, spruce, white pine, fir, cherry. Rarely will tolerant hardwoods be the first colonizers. Red maple, cherry and ash are most likely the only hardwood you will see for a long time in the larch to seed in naturally. And out of all three, I would take ash. Our cherry is mostly junk because it gets black knot. And red maple will grow in a nice big clump of 10+ stems after the deer, moose and rodents chew the heck out of it.
Yes, Norway Spruce is just as likely to be weeviled as the white pine up here to. You have to grow white pine shaded and keep it pruned so blister rust don't get a chance to germinate on low limbs/needles in the dampness of the growing season. Tends to be damp and high humidity in under softwood, much reduced light and heat. I've had success under planting in aspen and spruce plantation. But the cursed moose are another story, they destroy pine like it's the enemy.
I wish we could find a use for our tamarack, it is our most under utilized species. I about cried when I was leaving the landing on the last job and looking at all the clear 18-20" tamarack in the pulp pile. I'd like to saw a bunch up, and I just might ::)
LumberJack 48, that 36 incher is one serious tamarack. That's a huge tree for any species up here. How many sticks was that beast?
If you can put you Tamarack in a pulp pile, than your luckier than many. Biomass only in our area. Talk about a downer.
36" is a seriously big tamarack. I've got some 20 ish " ones on my property, and I've seen a couple around 30" in other areas.
My silviculture professor discovered the Former national champion 1982, and it just died and was harvested last year. Here is a caption from his facebook album with pictures:
"This is (was) the national champion tamarack tree that I found in 1982 and died (sigh). The landowers decided to harvest the tree (YAY) and archive the butt log in the Ashland Logging Museum...nice. Here are some photos, courtesy of Greg Davis, Seven Islands Forester from Nov. 25, 2008. The tree was over 300 years old; I have a cookie from the top of the butt log. It nearly died in the larch sawfly outbreak of ca. 1890. Dbh was over 44", ht about 95 feet to a 10" dead top (from 1890). Logger is Charlie Tucker, of Ashland Maine." -Bob Seymour
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22367/3327/n1072929460_30337016_861988.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22367/3327/n1072929460_30337018_3332401.jpg)
verso jay buys it. half the last load i sent was dead. most of it is in waldo county.
Tamarack (Amarican Larch) makes excellent framing material.
It's also good for decking material on farm trailers and hay wagons!
It's a shame to pulp those large Tamarack!
You can see the nice right hand spiral in that but log. ;D
Nice stick, but the first 4 feet seem to taper fast. I've seen lots in the 20's dbh, I don't remember any real tall ones. Usually 68 feet is there limit like a fir. Spruce here are way taller.
How many sticks was that beast
It was like a big Apple Jack, 4" limbs, only 6 sticks, about 60' tall, 30+ piece maker sticks. I was running a XL12, Homelite.
I cut that back in 66, there used to be a big demand for Tamarack pulp, i worked for a guy who wanted 16's out of anything 12" and up, he was sawing them for some bridge Co.
One thing about a tamarack board, you can't pull a nail out of it.
I met a man one time about 5 years ago whose son bought a mill and dear old dad was left with the bill. Across the road from the house was a small field and behind it was a stand of tamarack about 50 feet tall. I suggested that, that mill would look nice sitting in a saw shed of some kind instead of out in the elements and rain/snow on it for months on end. That tamarack could make a nice saw shed. It never took, and the twist that came over his nose reminded me of a guy than just took a whiff of skunk scent. :D :D :D
He was selling his land and retiring and was done with the work scene. I was there doing an inventory for an interested client. No sign of the son, and I could tell old dad was holding back a good story. ;)
theres videos of that big one coming down on youtube. that tree farmer was earning its keep that day!
We took some nice 18" dbh tammarack out a few years ago and sawed it up into what we called bull rails for a buffalo farmer. He had problems with his big bulls snapping posts and boards off on his corrals and runways that he used for shipping his animals. What we did was just live saw them into 3" thick flitches. Some of em banana peeled on us from the tension and the farmer told us not to worry he could and would still use them. When we delivered the last hay wagon load to him we saw quite the scene. He had old railway ties that they had split in half lengthwise cemeted into the ground about eight feet apart. Him and his two hired guys used two tractors that each had front end loaders on them with big tow straps hanging down to be used as big slings. They proceeded to weave the flitches into the the tops of the posts by pushing and pulling with the tractors. :D Once they got the weave started they would each go to an end of the flitch and push the flitches down till they touched the previous one then drilled and lag bolted them to the post. They pushed and pulled back and forth so many times that the posts cement and all loosened in the ground. :D Needless to say they ended up ordering a bunch of large diameter round tammarack rails to use on the outsides for angle braces. :D I remember Orval (the farmer) saying "Big Ol' Pithed Off Pete ain't gonna know what hit him this time." :D :D Pithed Off Pete as he called him was quite the bull. You could walk in the pasture and he would come and sniff you and let you scratch his head any day of the week, but boy oh boy if he saw you come into the pasture with the chore truck you had better have your seatbelt on. :D Believe me that was the roughest ride I ever had. :D Never again. The only other time Pete would get disgruntled, to say the least, was if he was locked in the corrals.
Brad.
At least one place sells it as flooring:
http://www.tamarackflooring.com/Home.asp
SD - Your heights are interesting, granted we don't tend to get much over 70' either but on those "better" wet sites (I'm still trying to figure out why one wet site is better than the next, they all seem the same to me) they'll reach 80 or 90'. I'm sure on the high ground we could grow one to 100' but I don't think we've had the time to do that.
Clark
Clark, I'm sure there is a few taller. One time I was really surprised by the growth of red spruce on a site. It wasn't so much the girth, they were 22-26" dbh, but the height. I measured one 2 or 3 times and still didn't believe it. It was 102 feet tall, growing an a wet flood plain. All the mature fir were dead, every one and none of those fir were bigger than 14" inches and way shorter than the spruce.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_redspruce-crown.jpg)
You can see the distant spruce I was measuring and the dead fir snags leaning and bark curling off.
Just up the bank to the road, the soil changes to glacial-fluvial sand with black spruce mixed with red pine, they might have been 40 feet tall. And the pine might be 8-10".
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_redspruce-stand.jpg)
See a broke off fir at about 4 feet high to the left. There were also white cedar in this stand.
An another site in hardwood and dry shale soil the red spruce were maybe 75 feet tall, but 26-34" dbh.
I pulled the mill out today, first time in months! I still had a tamarack bolt sitting on the deck, so I sawed it up and grabbed my camera. (It was almost as if I was waiting for someone to ask what tamarack looked like sawn ;D)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11286/667/tam_1.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11286/667/tam_2.JPG)
As you can see from the black ends, my tamarack has been sitting for quite some time ::)
Nice ;D
Here in the U.P. of mich they used mine iron under ground.[now they open pit mine].They used to split tammerack into what they called lagings.These pieces to fill the gaps between the timbers.I never heard of any other spiecies used for this
Hello out there,
I just read with interest all the replies on this subject and was glad to come across Chuck White's reply on March 2nd where he writes "Tamarack makes excellent framing material"
You see, I cut tamarack trees (some white spruce) and had it milled this past November in framing lumber (2x6s, 2x8s, 5x5s, 6x6s and 1 inch thick boards of various lenght and width). I live in Eastern Canada (New Brunswick) and right now we have lots of snow on the ground. My piles are all stickered, covered with lumber tarp and under approx 3 feet of snow. I plan to start building a camp in the Spring......once the 5 feet of snow has melted.. ha! ha!. I will use the 2x6s as studs for the walls and the 2x8s as joists for the floor and loft and some of the boards for flooring.
Therefore, I would very much welcome any other positive feedback like Chuck White's on the use of tamarack as framing lumber. Like I said, I plan to start as early as I can this Spring, nail it down and brace it so not to give it a chance to twist and warp under the hot sun of July and August.
All comments,suggestions welcome.
Tks All,
Oscar
Oscar,
I have used a little Larch in Maine for various projects.I'm always experimenting with different species.Framing for a woodshed or barn seems to be no problem.However,floor joists in a basement where some heat can get to them from woodstove or boiler isnt so good.They like to cup,check and twist.Sometimes it is hard to drive spikes through.Its still better than going downtown and paying for wood.Good luck on your camp.Dont think about how many blackflies will be hatching from all the snow melt.
I used larch for siding on my sawmill, nailed it up green. Had it up several years now, its ageing nice, no problems with cupping or twisting, never put any finish on it, I'm very happy with it actually.
those boards look very nice barbender. Does anyone have any pics of this as finished flooring?
One of our members from the UK saws and installs larch flooring. One of his install jobs. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10958/PICT3154.jpg)
that is some beutiful stuff. I love the coloring. All the tamarak that I cut gets shipped for pulp, and i don't think it would be too difficult to get some of the nice large butt logs to saw up.
My mom has tamarack down in her horse stable for the floor and it is holding up really well. Been down for 6 or 7 years now and still in good shape. I also had a client whose entire house was built from wood off his property. He had a couple of rooms done with tamarack flooring. It was some of the prettiest flooring I have ever seen. He did say though that it was a bit soft. If someone was to walk on it with high heeled shoes it would show. Although we don't have a lot of tamarack around here there are some nice stands on abandoned fields. It also grows very fast given the right soil conditions. Fun stuff to cut in the winter as the limbs break off when skidding.