Hello,
I'm planning a small cabin (16x12+leantoo bath) in an alpine area with huge snow totals and incredibly cold environment.
My question...what do you think of...
1. using 2x10 framing for added insulation - filled with foam board insulation.
2. Also, I'm thinking about using 2x12 redwood boards with some sealent/weather stain for siding.
3. I'm considering using barrel style concrete footers to raise the building up about 4' and would put a 2x6 framed skirt around the building with galvanized steel sheeting.
4. Since the floor will be raised I would like to insulate the floor and enclose it. Any suggestions on what type of insulation and boards to use underneath?
5. The cabin will have a fireplace, but I'm considering www.nuheat.com radiant floor heat for the bathroom.
Thanks in Advance!
MtnDoo
info@mtndoo.com
Spray foam insulation between the studs and floor joists, if there is anyone in the area that you could get to do it, will make the best seal against the cold. It will make almost an air tight construction. I think two by 10 studs is probably slightly overkill, especially if you can use the foam. :P
Hey, MtnDoo! :) For some really neat tips on cabins, scroll down to the "Timber Frame and Log Construction" forum. You can get lots of good ideas from that.
Thanks cktate!
The only reason for thinking of 2x10 monster construction was to handle the snow load both vertical and lateral. Mabey 2x8 would suffice.
Do you think it would work to build the exterior wall, install foam board and foam around it, kind of sandwitch style, or is top filling the walls with 100% foam more effecitve? If so, what kind of r-value/lateral inch would you expect?
thx!
MtnDoo
You are right to consider the load bearing of your walls and roof regarding massive snow loads of alpine elevations have specific guidlines regarding engineering for that altitude....soooo that said, if I was up there in the winter trapping or sumptin...I would want a place that could hold up to many tons of snow over my head 3-4 feet right? Second I would want to stay waqrm in -45 or 50 farenhieght ....I just built a home here in Illinjois and put r30 insulation in 8inch wall and am glad I did....in zone 1 r49 is minimal in ceiling and r18-28 for walls....I have snow load stats some were and recall a recent post here on it....
Don
Don - glad to hear my over-building idea isn't all wet!
We get 600"/year at the building site, and usualy have 3-10' packed on the ground for most of Nov - May. Evening temps are -20 at the worst case, but usually around -5f to +10f, daytime is 20's or 30's w/ tons of sun.
The roof will be metal and quite steep, but it still will load since there's heat in the cabin. 2-4' of snow load is possible, althought it's fairly light/dry for the most part.
Honestly, I'm more worried about the building shifting laterally from the packed base around the building as the snow goes through melt/freeze and the base sets up.
The site is at 12K/ft in Colorado.
I have heard of some respiratory issue that plagues over-insulated homes if there is not air re-freshed regularly. Will try to get more info and post it. But, I'm not yet sure what R-values to use for floor/cieling/walls etc yet.
MtnDoo
MtnDoo, I'm really not sure of the r value per inch, but compared to regular insulation it's a lot. I'll check and find out for sure. If you have the spraying done you won't need the foam board as it would not be needed. The spraying done properly will fill every nook and cranny. Also consider spraying the inside of the underpinning to help keep the cold wind from entering the crawl space underneath the house. One thing about the spray foam is moisture won't affect it like blown in or fiberglass insulations. If these do get damp from moisture or condensation r-factor is greatly reduced. You also want to caulk good where the walls meet the sub floor, inside and out. Wood really isn't a good insulator against the cold, so you want to fill every crack you can. You're right about the fresh air issue, and that is out of my area of knowledge. Wouldn't want too much carbon dixiode build up in there, that would be a really bad thing. I might have been wrong about the weight of the snow too. Better to build strong than to be sorry later you didn't.
Great ideas....thanks!
cktate - I'll do some searching, is there any perticular type of foam to look for? Any info would be much appreciated. thx.
DanG - I'm sifting through the Timberframe section too.
Rgds,
MtnDoo
Polyurethane, with an R-value of six per inch, is also a good option for crawlspaces. Installers spray the sticky foam directly to the underside of the sub-floor. Polyurethane acts as its own vapour barrier and, at least anecdotally, seems to be rodent-proof.
Icynene has a lower R-value (R-3.6 per inch) but contains no CFCs or HCFCs
:P
Hope this helps, I'm still looking too.
This link seems to have some good information. I havn't looked at everything on it yet.http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/insulation/ins_08.html
Hey MtnDoo, Took me a look see at that toy sled ya got for sale. AWSOME machine. Did ya build it yerself?
Blown closed cell poly urethane does not absorb water, critters don't like it, and it is real tight- to the point that you should be concerned about air quality in a structure that small. you need to consider outside air for combustion and especially for BREATHING. Maybe less tight is better in such a small building??? an air exchanger can set you back 2-3 G's- you can by quite a bit of fuel for that and not worry about power outages killing you in your sleep. Or, leave a window open a bit.
Corbond is the brand of foam we use- they have a website.
there is a lot more to building strong than just using "bigger wood", you probably won't go too wrong in a small building, but have someone that builds in that area review your plans AND your work. Think triangulation on every plane.(Bracing)
Good Luck, have fun, be thorough.
An inexpensive and safe method to keep the snow load to a minimum is with using a roof rake from the ground.
how long is the ground thaw?
can you do some diggin'?
I have been away from polyeurethane for a while, but there used to be people who had Gussmer machines for spaying insulation. Maybe you could search for Gussmer and find something.
Ctate, I had always thought that poly-eurethane was 7.5 per inch. What ever even at 6/in 4 in would be 24 where 6 in of figerglass is only 19. Man, 10 in would be 60 to 75 R value.
20 years ago, I set up an automatic foam machine that injected foam in steel doors. Then I hired into the company and moved from Mich to Tenn. Bought my present property and cut and sawed some trees to build on to and around the mobile home I had somebody drag from Mich. Beginning of every shift the crews would make a bag shot of the foam to test the curing points. Every day they would have 5 to 8 garbage bags of this test foam. I would take it home, saw it with a hand saw into 4 in slabs, square it up and stuff it between the studs, floor joists, and rafters. My home is really tight. For years I heated only with wood and it would take about 4 ricks a year to heat it.
I don't think there is anything that will beat poly Eurethane for insulation.
Dave, knew a guy once who worked at one of them plants where they made walk in freezers. He was just a kid, barely out of school. Got picked on real bad. One day they took the tires off his car and locked em in his trunk of his car. Took him a while to find out who the ring leader was. He got him some garbage bags or something, and a couple of jars of that stuff they mixed to make the foam. Little bit will go a LONG way, as you know. Went out to that guys car, put the bag in the floorboard on the drivers side, and poured that stuff into the bag and tied it shut. That stuff wrapped around the brake and clutch pedels, and the steering wheel. Heard he had to whittle it all out, and it took him a long time, with a pocket knife. That guy was my brother, and I'm still suprised somebody ain't killed him for some of the stunts he's pulled over the years. :) :)
:D :D :D :D whittle! :D :D :D :D
i shouldnt have read that
MtnDoo-
I highly recommend the closed cell spray in urethane foam. As previously stated, it has an R-value of about 6.5 - 7.5 per inch. I comes in two types. Makes sure you get the fire retardant variety.
I had it sprayed into my workshop which is a metal building. One of the side benefits is that it increases the structural strength of the building by about 50% because it bonds to the frame and sheathing.
As was also noted by the others, it does make the building virtually air tight. It stops all wind infiltration. You will have no problem with normal room oxygen; however, if your heat source is in the building you will have to provide external combustion air for it.
You wouldn't per chance have this cabin near a good trout stream would you? :)
Ken
Can't seem to figger out yer handle, so, for now, it'll be Ken. Welcome to the forum. Whatcha do for a day job??? ;D
Fla.Deadheader -
For another 7 years my other car is an ambulance. I work as a paramedic in Oklahoma. When I retire I'll be building custom furniture.
First visit to this group. I'll think I'll enjoy it.
Ken
(Never have been one much for handles.....call me whatever you like as long as you call me for supper!)
Hey welcome Ken,
How long have you been in EMS?
If you havent yet, try clicking back on page 89 and start reading, good stuff back there.
Oh ya sorry cant help anyone out on the whole cabin thing
Been working the ways and byways of Montana, Texas and Oklahoma since 1975. It's been a great career, but I'm looking forward to retirement and starting a second one. Those middle of the night calls seem to be getting tougher. Besides that, I'm looking forward to spending more time in the workshop.
Ken
Thanks for the info guys!
I'm investegating the spray in foam, it sounds like the way to go.
And, if it adds structural integrity, then awesome!
There are three target areas for this Cabin in Colorado: Lake irwin area, Taylor River Canyon, Schofield Townsite. All in the Crested Butte/Gunnison Area.
FF'ers,
Well, a few years later, the cabin actually happened.
We built it near Crested Butte, Colorado in the Irwin Townsite.
Septic variance, permitting and local land use politics delayed us almost 2 years.
Most of the work was done during the summer of 2008.
We had 1000" of snow fall (literally 96') that winter and got a late start; but a little advanced clearing with the snowcat and we were looking at ground on July 1st and began downing trees and digging.
I ended up doing the foundation work mostly myself, and hiring out the log package and roof carpentry.
If I had this to do again, I would extend the construction schedule and do this myself.
Nudura forms are a great product. Buy yourself a re-bar cutter; electric if you can afford/find one.
One thing any builder should consider: buy a large Mini Excavator. i.e. Kubota U-45. They're invaluable, and you'll more than make back the investment. I'm looking at a KX-080, so our U-45 is for sale (800hr, $45k) if anyone is considering this for their project. Simply wonderful machines, easy to use, low maintenance.
Just an update, for all of those who responded to my earlier 2003 inquiries.
(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbryndal.com%2Fcabin_sky2.jpg&hash=a99f947460fff661240b87fa1bc9e0f24b252e63)
n
Surely I've seen your place on Christmas cards somewhere...... :)
Very nice. 8) 8) Is the Canoe for getting down the hill in winter? :D
Nick
nas - LOL. If it were a kayak maybe.
We have a 5 & 7yr old and take them around on Lake Irwin in the summers.
;-)
The Spray foam is VERY expensive about 4 or 5 times regular insulation for the Open Cell type which can absorb some water, the closed cell stuff is about 10 times the price of regular insulation but is best stuff going. I would first off tsalk to local insulation people who do this, if the 12K foot mark is true then there might be some expansion issues ??? The guy I talked to suggested 2 parts one part outside walls with closed cell one or 2 inches thick then overspray with open cell to full depth. I liked this idea and was thinking of using the reflective bubble type stuff stuffed in between the foam layers stuffed in as 1st layer was sprayed wet and will stick to it then 2nd layer over top of the foil bubble stuff which will be unbelievable good stuff..
getting cabin up off ground is good idea too, is there avalanche chances?
base frame footings need to be deep & secure, make footer walls easy to "breakaway" in case there is one... not sure about perm- frost or frost depth issues there the anchors needs to be below this.
wide overhangs to get the snow away from the base as well. not sure if you can add a SLIDE during winter to get the snow out away from the base/walls better or not. This might help too otherwise heavy insulation under floor is probably a waste as it would be sealed up by snow depth most of the time. standard floor construction with some added insulation caution and such. the sealed space will warm well.
depending on mountain side, you should look at passive heat gains and roof ventings for summer cooling If you can get south or west exposure then you can take advantage of solar heat gain and even some other green tech.
mark M
Mark,
Ironically, since we have such deep snowpack, we rarely have the ground freeze. 6-10' of snow works as an insulator. No frost heave! County requires 36" cover, but it's more structural than for frost in practice. You can dig a snow pit to the ground mid-winter, and you'll find dry soil until spring melts come. Surface melt is absorbed by mid-pack layers, and freezes at night. The basement is a poured footer, Nudura ICF walls, and a poured concrete slab for the basement floor with PEX tubes for radiant heat in the future. We put both the foil bubble wrap and 2" of foam boards under the slab.
We do not have any chance of avalanche at this site, slope is 18deg and most aves occur from 30-50deg slopes. Some homes around us are built on piers, but then end up with many issues. If you build in an avalanche zone, your house will be gone. I've seen this happen - it is sad and dangerous if/when it happens. If you can budget for and get a concrete truck to your site, you'll be much happier with a sealed, poured perimeter foundation.
One thing I would do differently if I had to do it again is the roof pitch and building orientation! I'd turn the building 90deg either way, preserve the 12-12 pitch, and put the porch roof on the short gable end. The roof does not shed snow on either side. The south side (you're looking at) typically holds snow due to the porch roof, and the north side rarely sheds snow due to the fact that it is north facing. Yes, 5'+ on a 12-12 would not slide!! Stuck like concrete. This was the biggest mistake in the whole project. Always put the 12-12 roof pitch facing south, and 10deg east!!! ....and have no snowshed traps in the roofline. Lastly, next time we won't do rusty metal, we'll do a galvanized corrugated metal roof with a glazing of Crisco oil.
I'm working on designing a home now, and these were lessons painfully learned!
MD.
Well, as life changes. The cabin in Colorado is now for sale.
Listed at www.LakeIrwin.com
Thx for all of the help - it was a learning experience, and a good one!
On to build a house for the family.
Corey..
Corey,
Enjoyed reading the thread. Nice cabin and location. I look forward to your next thread on building the house!