Hi All,
Well, I have been looking through the forum and am getting some great information but I am hoping to tap into some of the knowledge you all have. Of course, it might be a little outside of your area but it should be a fun thread.
You see, I am engaged in reforestation in Costa Rica and own a tree plantation. 8) The problem ;) is that I have about 200 trees that need to be harvested this year (2004) or next. Since we are just getting started, I don't yet own a sawmill and am in the process of researching.
A couple of things to give some background. In Costa Rica, particularly in the campo (country), labor is cheap. The going rate for farm labor is 400 colones, which is 1.00 an hour, Hector, my partner who is Costa Rican ( they call themselves Ticos ) tells me I cannot pay more or else everyone else will be upset, so we give them stuff from the farm ( oranges, watermelon, coconuts, etc ) and old clothes when we travel. I said all of that to say that labor saving devices are not that important to me. In fact, we will probably have a crew because it provides jobs and because things will get done quicker and safer.
Reliability is critical and the ease of repairing. There are very good mechanics who can keep almost anything working and they take great care of their equipment. Also, I would like equipment that is realitively safe - they know about chainsaws and usually use Alaskan saw mills so they know that you can get hurt with a saw mill.
The first trees I have to saw are about 120 feet tall with a bole of at least 80 feet clear. The diameter of the trees are at least 1 foot and up to 3 feet at least. Most of the trees are around 2 feet in diameter. I am assuming that we will need to cut it up some. Also, almost all of the wood is hardwood with very little grain (no winters). Most of the wood is considered very stable, in fact some of it you can make furniture while it is still green believe it or not.
Eventually (5 to 6 years) I will be starting to harvest thinnings that are 9 to 12 inches in diameter. These will be teak, mahogany, Spanish Cedar (nothing like American Cedar, more like mahogany), etc. The bole will be 20 to 40 feet in length and there is a market for the young wood.
I guess my question is what should I first invest in? The 200 trees are very valuable so I would like to do them right, but I understand that there is a learning curve.
Also, there seems to be a very good opportunity to cut for the local farms you usually have the same amount of wood. Unfortunately, the local loggers often take advantage of them and give them next to nothing for their wood. They also just take the very best and destroy everything else in the process. So portablity is important.
I am not in a hurry to do this this in 2004 but I will probably need to start in 2005 in at the latest.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and thanks ahead of time for all suggestions. Also, I would love to see some portable sawmills in action. I am currently living in New Jersey and would be willing to travel a day trip. I definitely would like to get my hands dirty helping with no expect pay. (Free labor!)
Good morning Fred, by the sounds of what you've described you may want to look at a swingblade. I've not seen one myself but have heard enough about them that it sounds like what you may be looking for. If you need wide boards then the bandmills are a good choice. I've owned a wood-mizer for a couple of years and have been pleased with it's durability and workmanship. Good luck, sounds like a cool project.
A swinger would be portable and cut the biggest trees without doing anything special and cut down on blade inventory that you would experience with a bandsaw mill.
I'd still opt for the bandsaw mill. With plenty of labor hydraulics may not be required but I would try to get at least 20 horses on the mill.
A rigid framed mill transports and sets up easier but most any of the little mills work good in a stationary setup. A good company standing behind you would be real important. Finding one that is already doing business down there would be a plus. Blade supply and spare parts and blade sharpening equipment would be a necessity too. You might be able to start a couple of the "help" up in business sharpening blades if you can get them trained.
Welcome to the forum Fred, If it were me, I would order the demo videos from Peterson and Lucas, try to see or use any portable mill and choose from there. With that inventory of trees you can't go wrong, if you have a market. I would look closely at export laws, tariffs etc. before investing too much. When you visit other sawyers, be dressed properly, help if they say you may, watch and learn. Good luck BWW
ps: If you end up going with a Lucas, I would be glad to come down and get you going for a couple weeks, transportation, room and board required, preferrably in the winter!
Fred,
I operate a Peterson swingblade mill in Southern Maryland. If you are interested in this type of mill you are welcome to come by and see the operation. For simplicity, ease of operation, and cutting performance, a swingblade is a good choice. If you are going to be in a remote location, you will want something that is reliable. With a swingblade mill, there's just not that much that can go wrong. Some normal wear parts, basis engine maintanace, etc.
I understand that tropical woods are denser and harder to saw than we are used to. A swingblade should handle these denser woods with little problems.
Good Luck :)
If it were me Id locate an old circle mill and set it up perminately on your site, and get something else to work those large diameter logs down with to fit on the circle mill. like a large chainsaw or some of the mills mentioned.
We tried milling a large cocobolo cant 12"by12" with a wood mizer a while ago with poor results. Since labor rates arnt a concern I think youll get better production and straighter boards from a circle mill,cocobolo is very dense and contains silicon in its pores which dulls band blades quickly.[ Im preity sure silicon is the correct term], if not someone please correct me.
I own a bandmill and am very happy with it but it has its limits, I also work with an older circle mill and and find that it also has its limits, you really need three people to operate it efficiently where as most of the portable mills can be operated by one or two people
When Im milling in the yard again I'll contact you if it works out rite youll be able to see both types in operation. I think im only an hr or two from you.
When you contact cocobolo Inc. ask them the same questions and I think that you will be very happy with the results.
Wes
http://www.doublecut.com/sawmill_detail.asp?mill=1
Rigid frame, portable, and uses circle blades like the swing mill. Just another option.
http://www.sawmills.co.nz/auto.html
Mahoe in NZ also makes a portable mill. Its more of a dimension mill.
A lot will depend on how much you want to invest, what product you want to sell, and how long you want to keep your equipment. Updating and expanding every couple of years can be expensive.
I really appreciate the feedback. I started off thinking that I should go with a bandsaw version about a year ago but now I am "swinging" toward a swing blade. They seem simpler to operate as well maintain.
Yes, tropical hardwoods can be very dense and cocobolo is one of the worse. In fact if I remember correctly, it is the second hardest wood there is. Cocobolo can actually cause you a rash like poison ivy if you happen to be allergic to the sawdust. Beautiful wood and incredibly hard.
Thanks also for the offer to see sawmills in action. I will definitely come prepared to work - will a three piece suit be appropriate? :D In my youth (and I am not that old now) I used to work in a lumber yard and as a mechanic so I should be able to handle it.
As the time get closer, I will even think about having someone come down to train the people, with expenses paid. Of course, the lodgings will be pretty primitive... I am sure that it will disappoint you all to know that most of the time it will be between Dec and April, the dry season. I am sure you will miss the weather in the North that time of year. ;)
By the way, export is not an issue. There is no tarifs to most countries like the USA because there is no market to protect. I don't see much teak grown in USA... I have checked the laws and there is no tarifs. The only issue comes in that the wood needs to be certified as coming from a plantation and not from the rainforest or it can be rejected. For example, mahagony was placed on the CITIES endangered species list this year, which also caused the price to jump.
I'd definately suggest you look at the Peterson sawmills. They were originally designed for exactly the sort of environment and conditions you describe. The tropical Islands in the South Pacific actually.. but remote areas, semi-skilled labour, harsh environment, poor transport. Apart from some basic wear parts (mostly blade tips) and engine maintainance there is so little to go wrong and all of the operation can be seen and understood by any bush mechanic. The ATS sawmill can be carried to a large log 2 guys and set up around it.
With plenty of cheap hired help I reckon you could get pretty good production figures, the mill will cut way more timber in a day than anyone in their right mind would want to odd load ;)
ian
Sounds like you've done your homework Fred. I'm thinin' January '05 sounds good, primitive is ok by me, have ever seen a fire camp? BWW
BWW,
Nope, never seen a fire camp but I would assume they are pretty primative. Actually, we will probably do much better. There is a little house on the property with running water, refrigerator and a good outhouse. There is also a kitchen, etc. It even has a shower - but no hot water.
Truthfully my wife and I stay with our partner - their home is very acceptable.
In my youth I did a lot of camping so I really don't care where I sleep as long as it is not too noisy.
I'll definitely keep in touch. I am sure to have many questions to ask! By all means, if anyone wants to ask about reforestation in the tropics, I will answer what I can.
Ian,
It is good to see that my own research is corresponding with what everyone seems to be recommending, maybe this will not be so bad. Wes, I definitely will be contacting your friends at cocoboloinc.com
Fred
I'm looking forward to a sawmill related trip to Costa Rica in the future. What about a F Forum pig roast at Fred's some winter? ;D ;D 8)
Now there is a good idea! I provide the pig! You have not lived until you have had fresh chicharrones (pig cracklings). That with some yuca, fresh limes and beer, it doesn't get any better.
Fred
Hey Fred, Don'T forget the ceviche ;) ;) Now, that's good stuff, Maynard ;D ;) :D
I would agree with a Swing Blade MIll for what you want to do. Biggest reason would be, to NOT be dragging them logs in that sticky dirt. Put the mill over the log and stack the boards on a truck or trailer. Leave the scraps to rot down and replace the humus. I've seen the Lucas, but, think I prefer the Peterson. Talk to Kiwi Jake. ;) ;)
The last time I was there the local village had roasted a steer for us and one of the locals cooked up a gator that we cought. The beef was a little tough and the gater was real good. Also had some barbecued iguana, tastes like chicken. ;D
Im about ready for a trip to the tropics,count me in.
A small note, the difference between a "swingblade" to a bandsaw or multi circular, with the one blade of the swinger you are able to cut your full capacity boards (swinger's is 10"x20") in stages where as the other mills must take them in its full bite. This becomes a huge advantage when dealing with tension logs or very hard wood.
Why not go with one of each? Labor doesn't sound like an issue. Get a prime time swinger (don't know much about these) and a manual bandsaw. The bandsaw could be setup for any spectacular logs where the small kerf would payoff. I use a Timberking 1220 which will do 12 footers stock but extensions can be added for whatever lengths you might want to cut. The 29" diameter capability sounds like it would handle most of what you want to cut. It is a simple machine and maintenance should not be an issue.
What the heck, I had to get my two cents in :D :D
Ah yes, ceviche, wonderful stuff. The last time I had it we were at Los Lagos, ( http://www.hotelloslagos.com/ ) after a hard week planting trees. We went there for a little decadence at the end of the trip and the Volcano was being very active that night. Hung out in the hot springs and watched the show.
I am sure that I will end up with at least two sawmills (who knows how many really) but I have to start with something. Now, if I was already in Costa Rica, buying two would be even more of a temptation, but the first one I will probably not get to use very much.
I took someone suggestion and ordered the promotional materials from both Peterson and Lucas. It should be fun to go through. I have looked at Woodmizer as well.
The beef tends to be tough in Costa Rica because they never age it and it is not grain fed. However, I once had some filet mignon in Monteverde that was incredibly good. My wife and I had 2 diners with all the trimmings and I had a couple of very nice red wine and two deserts. The bill came and with tax and everthing it was under $34 dollars. It was then I decided I had to move...
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/PA166~5B_small.JPG)
How's the price of real estate down there? $ per acre
Greg, you will hafta get yer conversion tables out. Land in CR sells by the m3 or Hectare ::) ;) ;D ;D ;D Closer to the ocean, higher the price. ;) :D :D :D
Depends on the land, as they say in real estate, there are only three things that matter, location, location and location. Actually, one other thing, quality of the soil.
The land I purchased has 1/2 meter of volcanic top soil and is incredibly rich, which is rare for the tropics. It cost about $1,000 per acre USD. It has very good access and was in perfect shape with nice buildings, etc. It also has a small river running through it. You can purchase for about half that amount or less, but the soil is terrible and the access is even worse. I just depends on what you are looking for.
By the way, one hectare is 2.47 acres.
Fred
That's a third what vacant land cost here in Northern Lower Michigan and it's warm year round down there 8) 8) 8)
Ah yes. But you have an economy in Michigan ;D ;D ;D. CR on the other hand....
What are the restrictions on buying land in CR, do you have to be a citizen? marry one? or employ a certain amount of locals?
Wes
Economy in Michigan ??? ??? There's not much of one at the moment ;)
There is no requirement on buying land in Costa Rica (except money!). For tax purchases it is better to have a Costa Rican company (very easy to do and not expensive). The constitution in Costa Rica gives you the same rights as the locals. It is nothing like trying to buy land or do business in Mexico.
Costa Rica's economy is actually quite good. A stable government helps a lot. The people are very well educated, in fact, their literacy rate is higher than ours.
It is not all peaches and cream, but if you do your homework you can make it work quite well.
Then of course there is the benefits of writing off you trips to Costa Rica as a business expense. 8)
NICE 8)
A number of years ago, I was in on a chat with a forestry student from Mexico. We asked how forest management was in her country.
She told us that the local strongmen basically just came in and took the timber. The govt. did nothing about it, and then there were the drug lords.
Do you have any problems like that in CR?
Nope, no strongmen. A formal president of Costa Rica, Arias, won a noble peace prize for working to reduce the conflicts in Latin America. Costa Rica abolished its military in 1948 in favor of national health care ( 5th best in the world ).
Even without an Army, Costa Rica fought off Nicarauga a few times already. It doesn't happen much anymore, Nicarauga is too poor to do anything.
Costa Rica is a very peaceful place. Yes, there can be problems - but not from strongmen. The biggest problem is leaving your property unsupervised. Leave your property fallow and it can be divided among squatters. Costa Rica does not like the idea of a few wealth people ( locals or foriegnors, it doesn't matter) owning most of the land. The poverty level in Costa Rica is ~ 18%, where as in Nicarauga it is 70%.
One reason for the large middle class in Costa Rica is that there never was much use of slaves by the Spanish - there were hardly any people when they arrived. Therefore a land aristrocracy never developed.
Costa Rica's laws are pretty good and their #1 or #2 "export" is Ecoturism. They understand if they get the reputation of being dangerous, they will lose the view of being a great place to go for a vacation. I have never heard of a drug lord in Costa Rica. The Government does enforce the laws and they seem to be getting more serious about it every year.
This is not to say it is not a challenge to do business in a foreign country. Understanding the people and the laws can be fun as long as you don't get too frustrated. Their sense of time is a little different than ours, but, trees usually keep growing no matter what. The people are hard working, but the infrastructure is not super reliable which means you learn that schedules have to be flexible.
All in all our experiences have been very good, but we know a lot of people in the country.
I would like to add a couple of things to what Treedude said. About 70% of the population lives in the Central Plateau, which is San Jose and it's suburbs. The rest of the country is fairly remote. The occasional village is where you find most of the rural people, except those that actually live on the farms.
I have never felt threatened by anyone, although, you will have yer pocket picked, if you stay long enough.
We travel into the edges of the jungle, in the southern part of the country, and most men carry machetes. You can never tell a bandito from an upstanding citizen, and, being as how we carry expensive metal detectors and search for gold, we always pack some "heat". Not entirely legal, but, entirely necessary.
There is a growing drug running trade in the south and they leave NO prisoners. Snakes are nasty also.
Not trying to persuade anyone to stay home, just be aware that there are several ways to get "hurt".
I nearly submitted my paperwork to become a "residentia", but, had to stay in the states. I am seriously considering submitting it next time I go down, in the coming spring. There are several ways to establish residentia, but, that is another story. ;D
You are correct for sure about the south. I always assume the closer I get to Columbia, the worse off I will be. I happen to be in the Northern section of the country which tends to be far less dangerous.
My experiences are among the campesinos (farmers), yours seems to be among the "outback", the area where you have squatters and tree poachers. Not nice neighbors.
Yes, Costa Rica has a developing issue with drug running, however, I will take almost anywhere in Costa Rica over Newark NJ!
The probablity of getting bit by a snake in Costa Rica is actually pretty low. Most of the time it is from someone picking coffee. Or, some young boy trying to catch a fer-de-lance. (Truth, our partner had some boys catch one in his front yard).
I totally agree with Fla_Deadheader, there are bunches of ways to get hurt - especially if you think it is paradise. The Ticos don't believe in protecting anyone from their own stupidity. A couple of years ago a tourist was eaten by a croc because he thought it would be cool to swim with one. He swam in an area where the locals throw the dead chickens into the river to attract crocs for the tourist. I suspect the crocs just thought he was a big chicken.
By the way, if you are a resident, it is legal to carry a gun, and fairly easy to get the permit.
Fred
Right on, Fred. I agree with everything you have said. I even agree with the "Newark" statement. I was born and raised in Lakewood, about 50 miles south of Newark.
One thing ya never mentioned about CR was the traffic. ;D :D
First place I ever been, where the Tico's make a 4 lane highway outta 2 lanes. :D :D
My buddy in San Pedro, south of San Jose, says he FINALLY discovered the secret to why the vehicle horns always blow. He says they are hooked up to the wheels, and when the wheels stop turning, it trips the horns ??? :D :D :D
I was there during the communist rule of nicarauga, worked in honduras, CR, and panama,also worked jointly with their militaries, CR was definately the most frendly and stable. We wernt allowed to show any signs of weapons but the CR government supplied us with guards at our camp, work sites and convoys, they were part of the CR civil guard, all volinteers,Good people but kind of lax.
Unlike the military of honduras where they would go on recruting raids and take boys as yong as about 14 rite off the street. I worked with some, and those people are very serious about their structure, training, and dicipline.
My experiences in those other countries were just as enjoyable as CR
Dead header, your statement about the traffic made me laugh,Ive driven alot down there, I lived near panama city for 18 mo. I allways thought their gas pedals were hooked to their horns. And how about those chiva busses, with all the decorations, brite paint and loud music. :o
Ya talkin about the ones that run the Pan Am Highway, passin on the curves, uphill, and on the return trip, passin on the curves doin 200 MPH Downhill??? :D :D :D :D
Oh Yeah, CR is DEFINITELY Paradise, if ya survive. :D :D :D
I 'speshully like the "vendors" that appear along the hwy, sellin juice, fruit, chips and god knows what else, as soon as the traffic gets blocked and yer 400 miles out in the middle of nowhere??? WHERE do they come from, Spider holes ??? :D :D :D :D
I STILL wanna move there, someday ;) ;D :) :)
Ya mean the juce in sandwich bags, then you see baggies for miles down the road, I also remember a dead cow laying partway in the road just outside a village, it must have been hit by a truck or something, on our return trip several weeks later it was still there and boy did it stink. :-X
You move there and I'll visit
Traffic? What traffic? You have to remember I live in NJ now and drive almost to NYC for work during the week. Honestly, I go to Costa Rica to relax :D and drive. Nope, nothing like traveling at 80 miles an hour with nearly bumper to bumper traffic and then have some fool pass me at 100+. Usually it is either a Mercedes or a Police chasing Mercedes.
By the way, it only seems like they are suicidal on the hills. The trucks have CB radios and they call ahead to other trucks and findout if it is okay to pass. It does get a little close sometimes...
The biggest problem is the difference in abilities in Costa Rica. You have the truckers who drive all the time and then the Campesinos who only drive to the a poplulated town once or twice in their life. They don't know what gears 3 and 4 are for - if they still work.
Fred
P.S. I was noticing that the swing blades only will cut a maximum of 10" without switching sides. Is this normally enough?
re the 10" cut
The swingblade cuts dimensioned lumber off the log. Imagine the small end of the log with all the boards you want drawn on the end, any size up to 10" x 10". Then just cut them out. Flat or quarter sawn or a combo depending on the log.
The log can be up to 60"?.. you just take it apart board at a time.
You can double cut one board on each layer up to 20" if you need wider boards, but 8 or 10" is a sensible max size for finished lumber
If you need really wide boards look at the slabbing attachment
Ian
BTW.. just when you think you are living in a developed country... a street sign like this appears at the end of your street.. no kidding :o
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/ianab_road%20sign.jpg)
Fred, have you done a search on the forum under "Swing Blade Mills"??? There are many pics and some excellent write-ups from Swing Blade owners and Kiwi Jake has many excellent pics posted.
I would prefer a Petersen over a Lucas, (THIS otter start sumpin) mainly because of the ability to saw a 20" board without manually turning the saw carriage around. Lucas is a very capable machine, also. Petersen has just hit the market with a fully automatic mill, which will eliminate MUCH walking , and increase production.