The Forestry Forum

   *&#$)*@#&)*%+()*#!! then I have to work with *&$!^$)(!.(https://forestryforum.com/smile/angry.gif)
  But what really gripes me is I have to work with store bought wood because that is what the owner wanted.  Can not use my sawmill lumber I have to use the junk from the STORE.  They paid almost a dollar a board  more then my stock and this is what I get to work with.
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  Now I may not know if I have spruce, fir or pine but it should be a good board since it has a stamp and came from the STORE.  I would not use the crap and made them take it back.
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 I could not sell a board like that at my mill even if it is cheaper then them STORE boards.  I do not see how they can stamp that crap and sell it as good lumber.  I think when a feller gets a board like that there should be a number they can call to get the grader fired and the mill fined.  They have the coin to see that grade stamps are used and in some places it is the only lumber allowed by law.  Then they can spit out crap like these boards and say that they are good and get good money for them and keep me from selling mine as they are inferior since I have no stamp.  It just gripes me.
ARKANSAWYER

Me too!

It's not the grade of the wood that legitimizes it so the inspector will let you use it ........... it's the ink. :-/

Got ink?

Arky...
I hear you , I can't use my lumber on my house (structuraly) but I can use it on my shop ..... I've been working with wood all my life ,been sawin since 93 I know what a *&?&?% good board is but cannot use it for not having that *?(*&?(* ink on it .
 I could use my lumber if I get a architec to approve it ?????Another pencil pusher that don't know what type of wood it would be ifin it was in front of him with the bark and leaves on the branche..Maybe thats what they need the stamp for ......
O.K. thats enought of that before I get into trouble and say something I wont regret...

Arky, why don't you put a little ink on your wood.  Have a stamp made up that says:
 
Inspected and Graded by AK Sawyer.
Determined NOT to be Store bought SH*T .
Approved for use in QUALITY construction .

Add a little emblem for a 'seal of approval'.

Sometimes all the inspectors want to see is ink. They don't really read it very often.  Might be fun to try it.   ;D

On the right kind of wood you could even use the initials AFPA.  Another Fine Piece of Ash     :D  :D

VA-Sawyer

When I built our barn, I had to have the posts and beams to support the hayloft approved by a structural engineer.  He also had to approve the plan for "rough cut pine, number 2 or better". Our local building inspector referred me.  He was allowed to take a set of plans by an architect and note them, and also provide the load calculations.

Funny thing is, nobody inspected the beams, posts or lumber before construction.  

Captain

  Ed sent off to the SYP Grading Association, over 10 weeks ago, for their application to become a Grader. No word yet???

  We been thinkin about getting a piece of store lumber and drawing a design like it, and having our own stamp made, at Office Depot :o :o

  We gotta get a Planer first ::) ::) ::)

Yes junk is junk, ink or not.  Lets remember what this is all about, the pass the buck kind of liability issues that lead to things like a warning lable on a curling iron Kathy bought that said DO NOT USE WHILE SLEEPING! :o :o.  Grade stamped lumber is specified in most states so that the towns do not become responsible for building failures due to wood failure.  In the event of a loss due to the wood the company that graded it would be responsible.  For a loss due to construction the contractor would be held or for design, the architect.  This kind of liability chain doesn't really consider the appearance and ease of using construction lumber.

Now I don't agree with this approach but understand its reality in that this is the way it is.  I cant sell junk like that in the picture even as pallet wood.

New Hampshire is one of two states that has an alternative #2 construction wood program.  I took the grading course required by this program and the junk that passes for #2 is only based on calculated strengths, so things like wane over 50% of an edge are allowed.  I did however learn much about cross grain and its relationship to strength.

Now for a different look.  What do you think are the possibilities of a collapse of a single family house due to wood failure?

Well,,,, that's the nice thing about living in PoDung, Pa. no building codes. No wood, structural, electrical,plumbing licenses needed.
   This will be changing very shortly though, as Pa has mandated all communities have to adopt at least part of the BOCA code. >:(
        8)The Honorable Councilman Shopteacher 8)

Last summer I sold a guy some white pine for paneling and chair railing. He took it and got it kiln dry. The carpenters would'nt use it cause it was'nt stamp. He brought it back to me and ask me if I would buy it back cause it needed to be stamp. I told him to take it back to his house and tell them stupid carpenters that its not for supporting a roof up its for looks. He did and came back the next day and said they still would'nt use it, cause no stamp. I told him to fire them carpenters and I would put it up for him. He said he like to but cant. He kept the lumber and when they where done except the paneling he called me and ask if I would do it for him. $300.00 later he's was happy and so was I.
EZ

Iowa is right in between where decent softwoods grow so if I need construction lumber I'm stuck with the box stores. When we built our house the lumberyard would bring out a rack of dimensional lumber and I'd sort through it for usable boards. Almost half got sent back. Most 2X's looked to be SYP that by the growth rings was very young when cut. Anything bigger than a 2X6 cost an arm and my left... well you get my drift.

We don't have any building codes in the small towns and rural areas. I would love to have a semi load of good dimensional lumber to put in my shed and use around the farm and sell to the locals. You guys in areas that have a lot of softwoods what is the going price for dimensional lumber minus the ink. :D

$.40/bf

We have a chain store in the county that sell lumber like that in the picture, and a local mill that sells good lookin' southern pine. The stuff from the chain store is cheaper'n the local stuff, but nobody I know'll buy it.  :)

It's all politics!!!   Big lumber lobbyist created the laws so us little guys couldn't get our share and they could keep it all and maybe slide some to the politicians....  New York has new laws regarding Rough sawn and ungraded lumber and there is also the homesteaders act !!!!  If your paying to build your house you can build it out of whatever you want... So tell all those !@#$%$%^^^&***(( rule making politicians,lobbist's and big lumber to fry ICE...... The little guy still Rules..... Maybe we need to lobby for ourselves and not let anyone tell us what we can and can't use....... Also if they don't think our lumber is up to snuff let them pull out their own wallets and prove its no good.........  Im on a roll more later. >:(

My house is built almost entirely out of rough sawn big tooth aspen.  Cut the logs one day, sawed them the next and nailed the lumber together the next.  The building inspector wasn't real happy about the rough sawn construction and wanted to know who said we could use it.  When I went into the zoning office for the permits I had my sketches and their forms fiiled out and had aspen entered in the space where it asked for material to be used.  The office man signed it.  It helped that I got there 10 minutes before they closed and he was in hurry to go home ;D  The inspector couldn't do anything as we had an official signature and he'd have been pretty hard pressed to make us tear it down and start over.  Besides we used a size over on everything.  Full 2x6 walls, full 2x10 floor joist, sheathing planed to 7/8", built our own trusses from full 2x6s and 2x4s.  This house'll will still be here when ones built from store lumber and chip board and are long gone.  As for permits I got three.  One to build house.  I was supposed to have four inspection on this one.  I called for the foundation one and the structural one.  I also needed an elctrical permit to get the power hooked up and a septic permit to get the intial building permit.  I never called anyone back for any finals or occupancy permits and they never showed up on their own and I've been living here since 97 ;D.  Wouldn't be in anyones best interest for them to show up now.  Might get ugly ;)  I bought some 2x material to use at work at a lumber store a year ago and was appalled at the quality.  Even the ones that looked good warped within a day if they weren't nailed to something.

When I took a timber framing class in Northeastern Ohio this past fall, we used poplar for the cants, not what I expected.  The other guys in the class were talking about taking down walnut trees, and acting like walnut was just another nuisance that needed to be removed.  Then the one guy said that he'd love to get his hands on some clear pine, as it was so expensive to get in his area.  

So I made him an offer - I'd fill up a trailer full of eastern white pine logs and send them to him, if he'd fill up a trailer with black walnut logs and send them to me.  He actually thought it was a fair deal.

If any of the rest of you midwestern guys think that's a fair deal, or even want to consider other species besides walnut (cherry, sycamore, coffeetree, gum, white oak, etc.) I'll make that offer available to ya.  ;D  In all seriousness, I got more pine than I know what to do with, and I'd like to get me some nice hardwoods.  

We have the same problem here in B.C. I wouldnt build an outhouse for pigs outta some of the lumber that will pass "grade" for construction. I got no problem with the liability issue BUT a competant building inspector should be able to determine wether  an ungraded piece of lumber will do the job or not. The kilndried argument is bogus as well. The piles of "graded" lumber sit outside here for months waiting to be sold, all the while its raining(we get lots of rain here) like crazy on these piles.

 I spoke with a complete stranger from the US at the Vancouver airport this Christmas about lumber tarriffs/grading/small milling. He had some interesting views on the situation. He knew very little about portable sawmills but knew that in the last 20 years, there has been better than 100,000 small mills sold in the world and a majority of them are here in North America. Collectively, this is a large force and the bigboys(sawmills) counter by having their way with grading/stamping lumber. The New York thing last year was a small victory for the small mills but expect more resistance from the biggies....They want it all for themselves.

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  These 2x8's will make Electric Al cry but they are for a barn.  No ink just good lumber.  I like using my boards and do not need all of my engineering school to know that they will hold up what they are asked to.  My GreatGrandPa, GrandPa, Dad, me and my son are all carpenters so wood is known to us.  One of the reasons I bought a mill was because I was tired of building houses from crap.  I need to go to grading school and get my own stamp and bottle of ink.
  Norm I will sell you 2,000 bdft of good pine building stock for $1,500 delivered to your door.
ARKANSAWYER
P.S.  Al I am saving you some clear 1x's back.

I've been doing some research on becoming a stress grader, ain't gonna happen, I am pretty sure it will be the same for Ed, FDH. An individual doesn't hold the certification the facility does. I checked through NELMA and TPI, you are probably trying through SPIB. These are all overseen by ALSC
http://www.alsc.org
Among other things click the untreated program page.
There's also a link to the entry in the Congressional Record that shows how this all came to pass.

Basically a small operator isn't going to be grading as I see it.
I have no problem with an inspector not trusting my visual grading. I wonder if we would not be allowed to proof load lumber to show that it is up to the task at hand, that would seem to fit both the letter and spirit of the code yet allow an individual to exercise what I had always considered a very basic right, the ability to provide one's own shelter.

ARKANSAWYER: Any info you can give me on AR laws what you can and cant do with your lumber is appreciated.

I have a job in Ward, AR with freind and most of the wood will go to the pallet factory but I know there will be a large amount of good lumber that we will sell locally.


Does anyone have some type of national listing of which states let you use your wood for construciton and which ones dont?

Also how does a person go about getting certified to grade lumber?  Its not rocket science from what I read but I'll bet there are politics involve.

I dont know of any law that would prevent you from making your own stamp with a symbol for your wood.  How that stamp is interpreted by those using it should be of little concern.  

I know I plan on stamping my lumber for identification purposes.

Thanks
Kirk

Don, unfortunately, you are probably correct. The way I see it, guys like Inspector Gadget (where is he, anyway) go to school and become a grader. They hire out to a sawmill and grade their lumber, or, work for a wholesale buyer, and grade their lumber. I believe they can hire out as a seperate entity and grade for whomever, as long as they are Certified.

  Don'T see why a softwood grader could not do the same thing. Consultants get paid to do stuff the average person can't LEGALLY do, so, Maybe we should push to find out why the little guy can't do it, as long as he is "certified" ???

Kirk,
It's very tough to figure out the rules in the Midwest.  I am building in NW Arkansas (Washington county) and no building permits, inspectors, or codes. ;D  Get into any of the city limits and they have the whole smear of bureaucracy.  

I live in NW Missouri and its pretty much the same.  The county I live in you have to get a building  permit but it is only a way to get a little extra money and thats it.  Three miles south into the next county and they have some of the toughest rules in the nation.

I no longer send my wife to Home Depot to buy wood because every time she comes back it looks like something suitable only for a dog house. If you like crokked dohgouses.

Once I went to buy some 2x3 and after going through whole stacks I came back empty handed. I needed to buy some pressure treated 2x10s for my truck bed, need I say the first ones on the pile did not make the grade. Even the ones I got, I would never use for a deck.

On my old house, which had gas lamps in the wall and it appeared to have been built on site including those old iron nails, it had better scrap wood on the exterior sheathing under the siding than anything you could find at Home Depot. On some of the house near the top gables,  the wood was almost 36 inches wide with no knots. Got so, I use to go to a smaller lumber yard and pay 2x the price of the Home Depot to get decent pine.

On the up side, I took all their scraps of 6" cedar at $0.40 a foot and sided my house. It was at Lynn Lumber I saw my first piece of purple heart. Man, that stuff is beautiful and so hard you can not drive a screw into it without drilling it first. Plus, it seems to be filled with some kind of wax, which probably helps slow the tropic bugs down.

May as well throw my hat in the ring too. Where I work, the lumber moves by the graders on a chain same as most miss,whats different is there's this big LED display hooked to the grade reading computer. There must be some magic number,cause when the percentage of #2& better dropes below a certain percent, the grade goes up no matter what the lumber looks like.Kiln drying ain't all it's cracked up to be either. We dry to 19 to 21 %, airdried around here is about 15%. Near as I can tell the only thing kiln drying does is to set the pitch, and kill any insects so the lumber can be sold to export.
   Last year our average log size was just under 8 in. ,so you figure how much " GOOD" lumber we actually produced

Harold,
The problem isn't just the certification of the individual, it's the stamp.  The stamp belongs to the sawmill that the grader works for.  The mill up the road from me tells me that his cost him $300 a month.

The certifying organization doesn't like portable sawyers using a stamp or having their wood certified because the inspectors from the certifying orgainization don't know where the wood is located and that makes their un-announced inspections of the inspector difficult.  Without the certifying organizations blessings, the sawmill's stamp isn't worth doodly squat. :)

 someone needs a smack  " Home Cheapo" wake up  >:(
 Buyin from the big guy just keeps the wound open  
 Support the local's your not saving any money by going to
 the junk warehouse. remember everything youbuy there is
built to their speck and isn't the same quality even though it carry's the names.....  Buy John Deere from a John Deere dealers etc..... not a chain store.....
 boycott sounds good to me remember they batch buy and sell all that junk lumber ;)

OK then, where does one go to GET that stamp??? What org. or Assn. or Govt. office??? Who is the one power to be that says what the price is ???

  Didn't I read a good while back, that guys like Dr. Gene don't like graders "giving" their services away??? What good does it do to have your lumber graded, if you can't get it stamped for building ???

  I hear this crap all the time about no rough sawn for construction, but, seems like a thriving business of buying old buildings (rough sawn) , taking them down, and resawing the timbers into usable lumber. If the rough sawn is such a building hazard, how the heck did it last all these years ???

Harold,

You better be careful.
You're thinkin again.

 ;)

http://www.spib.org/

Shoot Tom, I got all that. They are the ones that won't send Ed the info.

  Hmmmmmmm, lets see, Pensacola, huh ???  DanG lives over thata way.  HEY DanG, we got a trip for ya. You said you like trips. How about it ???  This affects your future too ??? ;D

Percy, you are correct.  it is the BIG boy who control the system.   the have to, it is their breadand butter.  they do not give a DanG about our butter or bread, so long as their bottom line is black and not red.  

I looked into this issue here in Oregon and few years ago.   I got so mad at the time I thought Alice was going to have me committed to a padded cell.  What has to happen is this:  The states legislatures have to be gotten to.   That is most likely going to be nect to impossible as the small guys cannot get enough dollars together to fight what needs to be fought for.   And, the majority of the legislators has less than than what is needed to really understand the ture issue; the needs of and for the little fellas and gals.  

In my case I have a man that is certified via the place he works as well as by the state to do private grading of construction grade lumber.     The whole key in his situation is that he was initially trained by a very large processor and is now,  working for an even larger proscessor.

As to the various issues in areas of inspection, Here in one county they want the rough lumber graded before it is used in the construction of a home.  In an adjacent county they said to build the house first then grade the lumber.  Whole key is to go to school.  I tried that.   One out fit wanted severl thousand $ to train me by comeing to my ill site and useing it as the classroom for one student, me.   I told them where to go and how to get there.  I doubt I will ever be one of their students. :D

Again, I truly believe it all begins with the state legislatures and the building codes division for each states department of commerce.  And we all know who controls those purse strings,  The BIG boys.  

If you take a look at who the lobyists were at the time of legislation in the state of Oregon's rules on who has to build with kiln dryed lumber, it would not be suprising at all;  The BIG boys.  All public building in the state of Oregon have got to be built out of kiln dryed lumber.  If I am not mistaken it only has to be down to somewhere between 15 and 20 %. :-/

My soap box is getting slick! >:(  

Well I think I have read enough.

I have come up with my stamp.

AFPA - AD-10-13
No. 1

Allens Forest Products Alliance - Air Dried (KD for Kiln Dried) to 10-13% No. 1 grade (or whatever grade it is.)

Any one want to join the new Allens Forest Products Alliance.  If we all stick together I know that a difference can be made.  If we inspect to the standard then there is no reason we cant stamp our wood as meeting such a standard.  

I see no reason why we cant form such an orginazation.
The SPIB appears to be a self appointed orginazation that most now beleive are the law.  

Any takers?  Im ready to kick things off.  Who will join me!

Kirk

Kirk,

If it comes with an official looking piece of parchmant I can fill out myself and hang on my mill... , I'm in. Why not, other professions do it. ;)

When I went looking for grading information, I think what you may be talking about falls under the grades discussed in Chapter 6 of the Wood Handbook. These grades have to do with the procedures followed to assign strength values to a piece of wood that is graded and stamped. From what I read, there are a bunch of figures that go into the calculations, and apparently can be visually graded as well as machine graded.

The Wood Handbook can be accessed here.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm

Now, THIS is where I was headed. (sometimes my road has too many curves) ::). I agree with Kirk. I think that the SPIB is a self appointed organization, also. Who are they to set standards and then allow stuff like Arky posted, to be allowed to be stamped and sold, whereas the SYP I have been sawing , has NO knots, NO defects and the growth rings are less than 1/8th inch thick???  

  Count me in. I'm gettin old enough that I don't give a rats butt about these no sense laws???

  It would be interesting to me to find a way to poll ALL small sawmillers, and find out how much construction grade stuff is produced in North America, compared to the "big guys", and NOT be allowed to use for actual home and business construction. Any ideas out there ???

  We only started sawing in late April of last year, and according to my tally book, we sawed GOOD grade SYP, and produced over 8000 bd/ft. That doesn't include all the Cypress and Heart Pine for cosmetic things like Paneling, flooring, tables, etc, and we log more than we saw ???

According to these figures, someone that saws full time or every weekend, MUST put out a lot of bd/ft???

FWIW my understanding of the structure is that the National Bureau of Standards gave authority to the ALSC //www.alsc.org. They in turn oversee your SPIB,as well as the other recognized stamps from NELMA, TPI, WWPA , NLGA and the other rulemaking members.

I would be careful making any kind of stamp that might be viewed in a light that would label them as "deceptively similar" ;).

Beenthere:  I have again read the information from the forestry publications regarding grading and I have yet to find any where that tells me I cant grade my own lumber.  What I do see is that many private organizations have been formed to be graders and they all grade to a common standard.  

I will work on a few details from my end over the next couple of weeks and find out what we can do.

I'm confident that as long as we establish a legitimate organization that conforms to the grading standard we should be able to stamp our lumber as graded lumber meeting a specific grade recognized by the Forestry grading guidelines.

Although I am not an attorney I have had enough legal dealings in my lifetime to be able to read through some of the garbage that some think are laws.

My primary business deals with the training and selling of patented fire equipment to the fire departments all over the world.  The one I hear the most is; Is it NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) approved.  Answer: THE NFPA DOES NOT APPROVE ANYTHING.  They are a for profit organization that got with numerous people (mostly manufactures) and set up an organization that establishes standards for the Fire Service.  No problem.  As long as a product meets or exceeds the standard you able to promote it as such.  IE. Meets or exceeds NFPA xxxxx

The wood industry is no different from what I have been able to find out.  

I will soon be stamping my wood as meeting or exceeding the USDA Forest Service Hardwood Log Grades and Lumber Grade Yields for Factory Lumber as is outlined in Forest Research Paper NE-468 - 1980.  

Now with that, everyone needs to realize that placing your own stamp as I have outlined does carry with it liability.  In the event you sell your lumber as meeting or exceeding the standard and something happens you can be held liable in the event the lumber was in fact not in accordance with grading standards as marked.  

To Arkansawer and others:  Keep a log book and document each and every time you come across lumber that is stamped but does not meet the standard.  Why?  This is the most important step in the long process for supporting our position on grading our own lumber.  

Can they legally tell us we cant grade our lumber when we dump hundreds if not thousands of documented cases of fraudulent grading practices by those who have appointed themselves as the "Wood Gods".  I think not. 8) 8)

On another note, I pray that my input and work toward this subject does not get deleted by pressure from some special interest group.  I know that there are many on this forum that may very well be sawing for some large operations that don't want to see the small guy with the same rights but rest assured, its everyones right to be qualified to grade lumber.
It is not a privilege as some would lead us to believe and the more I wright, the madder I'm getting. >:(

I will get off my soap box for now but rest assured, I will investigate this matter and prove my point.  

To the administrators:  I'm sorry if the above comment offended any one as it was not intended to do so.  I only mention it because I have had valuable information deleted in the past from other sites because of special interests. I have not seen any such case on this board and have nothing but the finest of words and respect for those who made this sight available.  The information and resources contained on this site are priceless in my opinion.  Again, forgive me if my words were taken the wrong way.

God Bless and wish me luck!

Kirk

DonP, you are certainly correct withthe authority part.  Also, look and see who is on their board of directors etc.. Just like lumber gradeing folks you have the same folks on the log scaling and gradeing bureaus.  My father use to say in this kind of situation, "You have the fox in the henhouse whatching out for all the little chicks."  In this case, John Q. Public.   Also, it is a way to control the "little people", us.  

I sometimes feel like a Munchkin, is it?  Now, who would the other characters be.  We have The Great Oz himself, the Tin Man, Lion, Scarecrow, Witch of the East and the West, Toto and of course Dorthy.

Kirk

Count me in I am behind you 100%

Woody

SPIB describes the buyers at the lumberyards:
Selectively Putting It Back !!!!!   ;D

Go for it KA. If we are going to start an independant grading agency for small sawmills then lets make sure the name reflects it.   Suggestions anyone ?

VA-Sawyer

WOW!  :o :o What a thread!  I'm glad to see some folks getting interested in our looking out for ourselves.
As I understand it, it's ok to stamp your lumber with your own mill's stamp. It would be fraudulent, however, to make it appear to be approved by an association. Wouldn't want to be caught doing that!  Some inspection offices may accept that as a way to avoid liability themselves, and pass the project, but they may not.  I'm thinking of paying a visit to our building inspector's office just to see what they will, and will not, accept. I would think that such an effort would show "good faith", and demonstrate that I am trying to make my product acceptable. Worst that could happen is wasting a couple of hours. ::)
A couple of times, I have mentioned my Cousin's husband, who is currently in Baghdad :-/, who works for a big mill in Ga.   He told me he knows some of the "Association" graders, who come around to check behind the mill's graders. He thinks some of them would agree to grade and stamp my lumber, for a fee. I'm not sure I could set up for them to inspect a large enough whack of boards at one time to make it worthwhile.
FWIW, we COULD organize our own association, but we would have to have a network of inspectors to inspect the inspectors, as well as be willing to accept the liability issue. Member mills would have to meet our standards, which would have to match the national standards, and mills would have to pay dues and fees to cover the aforementioned costs. We'd be right back where we started, wouldn't we? ???

If we could make that a internatoinal organisation and send up the stamp this way you could definatly count me in .

I just went to the search bar on the top of my puter page and typed in: Western Wood Products Association.  I came of with 10 different sites that relate to them.  I think one and all would find it very interesting.

From what little info I have gathered tonight:
the 1941 US court directs the present formulation of ALS (American Lumber Standard) under the department of commerce.  They in turn appointed a committee (ALSC)

The 1952 court cases only established that the ALSC and Board of Review are impartial agencies adequately constituted to determine competency of grading agencies and that the standards employed by the Board of Review are "adequate to promote competency in grading and in the public interest".

Whats this mean.  Simple.  They can establish accreditation or certification because they have been deemed "adequate to promote competency in grading".

Its very similar to an auto mechanic.  Some can be licensed by ASE but that does not mean you cant work on a car or have an auto mechanics business without it.

I think we will find log grading is the same. I will do a legal review at the law library this week and get more details on the court cases but what I find on the ALSC web site does not reflect that I cant grade my own lumber.  It only outlines that they offer accreditation.  

As a retired AF mechanic I worked  on airplanes.  Now for me to do so in the civilian world I had to have an A&P (Airframe & Power-plant) license.  The key word is "LICENSE"  That makes it a law.

There are no wood grading licenses that I know of.  Only accreditation from an organization or certificates.  

I will post more soon.

Kirk
  

DanG if DanG ain't hittin on something there, plus add the cadre of lawyers and money counters, etc. and it becomes another big bureaucratical organization, which wouldn't let the little guy in who 'just wants to sell some lumber by his own, but better, rules', IMO. Maybe a way will poke its head through the fog.

Kirk has some good points too.

How much per year are we willing to pay for the ability to grade and stamp lumber ?  Is it worth $500 per year ?  How many sawyers on this forum ?  I would guess it would take $250,000 minimum to set up the association. At $500 per member, that would require 500 members. If we  felt it would be worth $2500 to us for the stamp, then we would only need 100 members.
For me, I'm interested at $500, maybe willing to go as high as $1000, but I lose interest quickly at prices higher than that.
There could also be the added cost of required insurance.

How serious are the rest of you ?

VA-Sawyer

My guess is the only reason we don't have the same laws about using ungraded lumber here is they don't have the money to hire the inspectors, otherwise we'd have the same rules. The liability point is where they seem to scare off the little guys from selling construction grade lumber. Same old scare tactics, sure you can do it but what if someone sues you. Jeez I'm tired of that threat, it's the reason I have a million dollar liability insurance rider. Be darned surprised if I ever get sued they will chip in that million. When we built our house we only had to get a building permit which basically tells the county we have something they can tax. The assessor has come out here twice to reassess my place. Each time I have politely told him to get off my property. I'd be darned happy to sell my place for what they assessed it for. Payback for sure. I'm so dang tired of some government agency telling me what I can and can't do I'd like to succed from the state.

There is nothing wrong with standing up for our own rights, not those of the big interests. It's what this country was founded on. I better get off the soapbox I'm afraid of heights but things like this get my dandruff up.

  Let me tell you all how serious I am. 2 years ago, with the financial scandals and bankruptcies, I lost my whole Pension fund. GONE. I just turned 60. I am WAY in debt from starting this logging deal. Partners bailed. I probably won't saw enough SYP to make being a part of this plan monetarily worth while to me. I will have to work hard until my time here is up.

  However, I have a son that is also struggling, and together, we are slowly coming out of the dark financial mess we are both in. This MAY help him in the future.

  I am looking at helping ANYONE that has a mill, OR, that has some Timber, that wants to build their own home, or one for their children and Grand children. Selling "High Grade" construction lumber should be something anyone can do, provided it meets OR exceeds the standards set by the Associations.

  The question of having "Graders" or "Inspectors" scattered all over the place is a valid one. Like mentioned above, a fee that would pay someone in a particular area, to grade and certify construction lumber, would only benefit those in that area. What's wrong with that ???  If "we" can set up an organization that can be divided into regions, throughout the country, there is no reason that this plan cannot be implemented. There will have to be inspections by our own people OR by the certifying association. Fine. At least, this is a start. Anyone that feels a fee is not in their best interests, only has to not be involved. Simple  Nothing is free. New York State has thrown down the Gauntlet, by trying to implement crap rulings. The Sawmilling group and the "Small" sawmill manufacturers challenged that ruling, and The State QUICKLY backed down.  Who from New York State can give us the straight poop on that ???

  Today, I will find a way to get some kind of information from the SPIB Assn. I AM or (should be) totally commited!!!

  Hopefully, the Sawmill manufacturers, like WM, Petersen, Baker and others will read this thread, and offer support. It is in THEIR best interests also ???

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned; it IS an election year. There just may be some lonely politician out there that is looking for some sort of a grass-roots issue to espouse. There aren't enough of us to do much to his voter base, but he could show himself as a champion of the little guy. ::)

I was just wondering, ???  how many of you  have actually had lumber rejected for lack of a stamp?  How many have talked with the building inspectors to see what kind of stamp they want to see?  This whole thing may be as simple as having your own mill's stamp made, for some of us.  After all, the stamp is just a guarantee that the lumber is what it says it is. I suspect that Kirk is on the right track, in that the stamp doesn't have to be from any particular organization.

I just did a quick search in google and I couldn't find any examples of anyone getting sued for lumber failing in buildings, except for pressure treated lumber.

It seems that if a building fails its always blamed on poor design or assembly, not on the wood itself.

So, if an association of portable sawyers got together and bought an insurance policy for their grading stamp the cost of the insurance may be quite cheap per sawyer.  

Just a thought,
Ian

After reading the 15CFR information from the Department of Commerce I would be against forming such an orginazation for several reason that I think you will understand when you read it.  http://www.alsc.org/greenbook%20collection/DOC_VPSProgram_FederalRegister.pdf

I still can't find any reason why I cant stamp my own lumber with my own codes (Consistant with the industry) and sell it anywhere.  

Yes some people may refuse it but then that becomes another legal matter.  To refuse lumber that meets and or exceeds the standard may open the door for you to sue them.  (May, becuase I am not a lawyer)

Lawsuites?  Anyone ever been through one?  I have been through several, to include being sued and suing them back.  We won but I can tell you it was in the courts for close to 5 years and the only winner was the lawyers.  Sure, we proved our point but we got no compensation.  Cant get blood from a turnip!

I think that each having our own stamp certifiying our own cut lumber is the way to go.  If someone refuses to purchase my lumber because they dont like the stamp I will then have to explain to them why it meets and or exceeds the standard and why my stamp is just as valid as those certified by a company in Maryland.

Stay tuned!

I just called my local building inspector, after reading this entire thread, because I panicked.  I don't want to sell lumber, but I am building a house, barn and shop with stuff I saw, and I needed to make sure that I wasn't gonna get myself in hot water for lack of a grade stamp.

He said only that he has never checked for a grade stamp, and that he has inspected a number of buildings, both commercial and residential, constructed in town recently, and built with rough-sawn lumber.  I have never seen a timber-frame with grade stamps.  What do you have to do in those states that require one if you're building a timber frame?

Being next door to NY, I do know that small sawmills have a large presence and voice.  I can see why the NYS legislature backed down.  

I can't imagine that any state or local building code wouldn't let someone saw lumber for their own construction use, nevermind the sale of such lumber.  Not that it isn't the case, but that it's just unfathomable to me.  If the building collapses, who the hell am I gonna sue, myself?  I designed the house, I cut my own lumber, last thing I wanna do is have it fall down around my ears.  :-/

WOW! 8) 8)
It pays to know the right questions to ask 8) 8) 8)

I just spoke with the ALSC and you will not believe what I was told and I quote:

After 20 minutes on the phone this appears to be the bottom line from their standpoint.

Q: I currently grade and stamp my own lumber.  Can I legally do this?

A: "Sure, Any Tom Dick or Harry can grade and stamp their own lumber" "Doing so only means that its not stamped by an accredited agency". "But that doesnt mean it doesn't meet the standard."

Q: Why would a builder not accept wood unless its stamped by an accredited agency?

A: Most builders are only looking for a stamp. I would bet most couldn't tell you what the stamp ment or whos stamp it is.  
 
I think the search for answers is over.  You can legally grade and stamp your own lumber.  The ALSC is not a government enforment agency and do not police stamps.

The key is for each person that is going to take on this position ensure that you infact know what your doing and make sure you can support your position in court if it ever came to that.  If private sawmill operators all over the country start grading their own lumber you will see two things happen.

1. If you impact larger operations business they will attack the stamping issue.
2. If we stand our ground and FIGHT we will prevail, provided we are grading to the standard.

The key is grading to the standard.  If bad wood is graded as good wood then your credability is shot.  That is why I said to document any case you can where bad wood was graded as good wood.

If we establish a reputaion for being bad graders it could lead to legislation to make it a law for wood to be graded by an accredited agency aproved by the Department of Commerce, which I would expect to see if we impact the big boys operatoins.  On the flip side, if we stick together and grade by the book(which we should regardless) we may very well establish a grass roots movement supporting small business all over the country.

Personaly, I will be making my own stamp for both softwood standards and Hardwood and I will grade and stamp when needed in accordence with the grading guidlines.

The ALSC did tell me that I could pay one of their agencies to certify me to grade Softwoods but doing so then means you have to open up your operation to routine inspections to ensure your conforming to the guidlines of certification.  I understand the need for this on a Large operation but when its a family owned operation with tight controls its clear that its a waste of money.  

My next venture is to speak with the Department of Forestry and identify any classes they may have on being certified by the US Department of Forestry for lumber or log grading.  I have heard people at WM talk about some classes in the past so I will start with them.

What could a builder say if you stamp your lumber as meeting a specific grade and then pull out a certicate from the Department of Forestry that says your qualified in their eyes to grade lumber.  

Im confident we can prevail.

I do find it interesting that some of the common posters on this site have not had much to say in this regard.  I wonder why?  If were stepping on toes I'm sorry.

Kirk
Who is this US Dept of Forestry you speak of? Is it the US Dept. of Agriculture, Forest Service?

I didn't think our government taught lumber grading or certified a grader. I could be wrong.

A builder is likely only trying to satisfy the demands of the building inspector, as he doesn't want to have to tear a building apart because the grade of the lumber used is in question. I recall hearing once that a Chicago tract home builder cut all the ends of joists off that had the grade stamp, and the building inspector condemned the entire tract. All the lumber had to be replaced at a large expense to the builder.

I think Kirk is on to something. I think DanG was on to something too. Keep the communications flowing.

Beenthere:  I will find out from WM.  The last class I took at the Indy plant they spoke about grading certification and I thought they mentioned the Department of Forestry.  I dont know if thats on the state level or federal but I will continue my search.

In EU we also have standards. I´ve never heard that we may not use wood for construction but there is other reasons.
 If a vegetable dealer in Årsta wants to buy cucumber from Spain he will be able to know how curved they are, for that reason he needs to know how much he can get for them and how much to pay, whith out going to Madrid and look at them first.
A house builder in England perhaps can get problems with his insurance company if nobody knews what wood is wearing the roof. A door faktory wants to know  what the wood makes to their machines.

I thinkt here is no legal obstructions to use any wood here. The standards usaly is to make it easier to make business for people who don´t know anyting and other who dont trust each other 8) Not for us honorable.

Taking standards; When do You cange to the metric system? :D

Swede

QuoteTaking standards; When do You change to the metric system?  

Swede,

How thick do you SI guys cut your 4/4 boards? 2.55 cm? :D  :D

Doesn't that get confusing?  ;D  :D

-Doug

QuoteOn another note, I pray that my input and work toward this subject does not get deleted by pressure from some special interest group.  I know that there are many on this forum that may very well be sawing for some large operations that don't want to see the small guy with the same rights but rest assured, its everyones right to be qualified to grade lumber.
It is not a privilege as some would lead us to believe and the more I wright, the madder I'm getting. >:(

I will get off my soap box for now but rest assured, I will investigate this matter and prove my point.  

To the administrators:  I'm sorry if the above comment offended any one as it was not intended to do so.  I only mention it because I have had valuable information deleted in the past from other sites because of special interests. I have not seen any such case on this board and have nothing but the finest of words and respect for those who made this sight available.  The information and resources contained on this site are priceless in my opinion.  Again, forgive me if my words were taken the wrong way.

God Bless and wish me luck!

Kirk

Before you make statements like that and then apologize for them, maybe you should do a little homework and research on the origins of this forum and who decides what gets deleted and why. Special interest group? You make me laugh not mad.

Buying a grade stamp would be of little or no benefit to me.  What I saw is mainly for my own use.  When I do saw for others it's their logs that I saw.  What they do with the lumber that I saw for them is their business and doesn't concern me.  It's up to them to deal with building inspectors etc. if they are using it structurally.  I do support you guys who want to grade and stamp your own lumber.  If you or an employee has the training to grade structural lumber then there should be nothing stopping you from from putting a stamp on your lumber that certifies it.  In my part of the country a small mill can't compete with the big lumber stores when it comes to structural lumber.  The price of logs, and production costs are too high and the lumber at the store too cheap.  I couldn't afford to cut and sell that sort of lumber.  Value added products like kiln dried hardwood, T&G panelling, half log siding etc is more feasible and why my future plans include a kiln and a four sided planer moulder like the Logosol.

Jeff,
I'm sorry if my post was done in haste without the suggested homework.  

I have read the guidelines in the past and again have reviewed them.  

"The Forestry Forum reserves the right to remove any messages or without notice. The Forestry Forum also reserves the right to ban users for any reason without notification."

I assume the administrators are the "Forestry Forum" that takes this action if need be.  I don't know who this may be or what their affiliations might be. It is nice to know that I have not stepped on toes with my post.  

As far as the origin of the site I would appreciate if you could point me to that information.  

Special interest groups?  
I have been banned from posting FACTS on another forum relating to my full time business because I don't advertise with the organization that monitors and hosts the web-site.  Now they will never admit to it directly but over the years the truth came out as to why my factual based information was deleted.  They were pressured by their advertisers (my competitors) to do something about me posting our information. Now in the long run we prevailed because you cant stop the flow of knowledge on the Internet but some do try.

I'm again sorry for making my comments without first doing more homework.  Please accept my apology and rest assured it wont happen again.

I have been on the phone most of the day, lining up buyers for our wood 8) ;D.

   I also had a chance to call the SPIB, that's Southern Pine Inspection Bureau, for those that don't know.

  They are a Non-Profit Corporation.  I talked to Sandra, who has been with them for 25 yeras.
 
  1. The average person, such as you or I CANNOT become a lumber Grader through their Organization, unless you actually work for one of their accredited Sawmills. They will train you while the sawmill pays you to work for them.
   Small sawmills do NOT qualify for being accredited. There are lots of "rules" for this.
   2. You CAN have one of their certified inspectors grade and certify your lumber, either rough sawn or dressed. Price $225.00 per day + 34½ cents per mile BOTH ways.
  If there were more than 1 mill asking for the service and being in close proximity, an additional charge beyond the $225.00 would be figured, and all the mills would be checked in the same time frame.

  3. The acceptable moisture content for SYP is 19% or less for 2"X construction lumber. It does NOT need to be kiln dried.

  You do NOT have to have your own lumber certified to build your own house or other buildings. If the Building Inspector requires it, That will take some negotiation. The SPIB ia making "suggestions" toward grading and it has been accepted by MOST Building and zoning boards.

  4. You CAN build your own home with Rough Sawn Lumber. There is NO law that says you can't. That rumor has been spread by towns and they get away with it.

  Lumber stamped as S-P-F is NOT as strong structurally as SYP. They did tests to prove that. Any Building code that allows S-P-F will HAVE to allow the use of SYP if the grade is equal or better.

  If I didn't get this info mixed up, This is what I was told. I'm pretty sure what I wrote is accurate. ::) ::) ;D ;D

Kirk, I agree with your premise behind a new grading association.  The problem I anticipate is quality control, and regulation of the qualifications behind everyone running a stamp.

I think I understand softwood grades, but do not even begin to profess understanding hardwood grades, I just have a working knowledge.

Anyone know of an organization that offers a correspondence type or media based (Internet, etc) training on grading rules?  Maybe I just have to get the books...

Captain

Forgot to add, you can buy all kinds of brochures and rule books and such from SPIB.

  Also, in my post above, I used the word suggestions. It should have been standards.

Fla. Deadheader, I basicaly agree with your presentation.  I too have been on the land line today.  I found a group out here and it is not the WWPA, that is willing to hold a class and educate us on lumber grading and the processes involved.  the Catch 22 come when we want to be certifiied and have a stamp.  They will not do that in the 4 day short course.

To be certified and have a stamp you have to join their organization and be open to such as the following:  Spontanious inspections once a month, (unanounced), pay a monthely fee of $250, but you not be issued a certificate or stamp until you can prove that you know what you are doing as far as grading is concerned.  As the the amount of time to earn a certificate and a stamp is dependent upon you skill of learning the grades ect..  

The one person I spoke with said that he had been on the phone with a person from Grants Pass, Oregon and the fella had become very irate etc. over the process and costs of getting a stamp and certified.  

As far as the certified part is concerned, Alice says that I already am certifiable, but I think that is in a diffrent catagory. :D

I asked if they would train, certifie and issues a stamp to a group of mill owners, and the answer is yes.  However, we each have to pay the $250 a month etc.  They too, would come and inspect lumber for the $250 a day plus mileage.  there would be the additional fee of $250 for even another miller a 1/2 mile down the road, plus mileage.

I believe they got us all by the grapes, unless you can find someone such as I have done to grade you lumber at a reasonable cost and perhaps milage if it exceed more tht 25 or 50 miles.  I count my blessing for this person.

FLaDeadheader:

INTERESTING to say the least.

I was told bye the ALSC that they could not certify me to grade lumber and that only one of their accredited agencies could do that.  I specifically mentioned SPIB and they said yes they are accredited and that they could certify the milling operating to grade wood but not an individual.

Rather confusing. I run my own operation so they would certify my operation provided I meet the criteria but they will not certify me as an individual.

Captain: In regards to Hardwoods, contact the National Hardwood Lumber Association at 901-377-1818
They do offer courses (14 week for full grading certification) for grading but they are on sight.  The 14 weak course runs about $1700.00 not counting room & board.  

They also have short courses, what they call seminars that are 3 or 5 day courses.  

I have not been able to find anyone that offers a media type based course.  I asked the NHLA about this and due to not being able to ship you a board to grade its something they simply wont offer.  

I think we are all finding out the same thing.  Pay the money and it will come.

I dont agree with it and i will not do it.  I am confident that when I need to stamp my lumber as graded according to a specific standard all will go well.  People skills and good communication is the key.

If your wood meets the grade then it meets the grade.  If we have to walk the inspector through the proof then do it.  Once its done you should have no future problems.

I spoke with our chief local building inspector today about this issue and he said that building inspectors should be looking for proper construction not what grade of wood is bieng used.  "We are not wood experts".  

He had a great attitude about it and understood our dilema completly.  Interestingly he did ask if I grade my lumber that I sell for construction.  If so, thats good enough for him if the subject were ever raised by a contractor.

I think a lot of light has been shed on some myths that over time grew legs and ran.  

Im not sure of the volume of lumber most of you are producing  but even if its a measly 100 bf, we need to stick together and help each other fight the fight when the fight needs faught!

 8) 8) 8) 8)

  Kirk, she said the Sawmill MUST be stationary. It MUST show several years of operation and not have any "bad press", complaints, etc.  I questioned that and she said WM type sawmills don't qualify. I countered that statement with, " the WM types, are folks that are Da** proud of the wood they produce, NOT like the defect filled crap from Home depot and such. She softened her approach to small WM types and then said that several could be inspected at one time.  ;D ;D

  Where the he** is Inspector Woody ??? ??? ???  This is HIS "bag". ::)

  I believe she was sincere with her info and I explained all the mis-information that is out there regarding home sawn, WM type lumber. She said she would be glad to talk with anyone that would call her.

 What if  a group of small mill owners from around the country,formed a sort of non profit co-op,supported by membership dues or something like that. then sent some members to the grading school,the co-op could own the stamp and qualified members could use it.
 The qualified graders could grade for a number of mills in their area.They could possibly even sell lumber through the co-op.

 Just a thought

According to SPIB, no way. 1 stamp per mill, NOT co-op or any other type group. Not sure about other grading outfits.

A number of years ago, I approached a sawmill manufacturer with the idea of a co-op.  I wanted a list of mills in my area where I could combine the efforts of small mill owners in giving them another avenue for marketing their lumber.

My idea was to have a concentration yard.  I was working with one mill owner who was struggling.  He was making product, but not enough to sell to secondary manufacturers.  This guy was a certified lumber inspector.  His problem was getting enough to make a trailerload lot.  His production was too low, and his production costs too high.  He eventually went bankrupt.

The response from the mil manufacturer was they wouldn't give me any help.  A co-op simply wouldn't work, since small mill owners are too independent to pool their resources.

I still think a concentration yard is a good concept.  Hire the inspector to come in once a week or so, and grade the lumber.  Make sure you have enough product on hand that it is economically feasible.  

There is a vast difference in retail and wholesale marketing.  Wholesale is cheaper, but they pay quicker and you don't have as much inventory on hand.

Just curious.  Are not construction softwoods graded from the best side under the present system?  With the boards Arky pictured I would have sent them back also or cut the defect out and used them as cripples but at the same time they might have met the present grading rules as #2 and better?

I have been in construction full time and part time for a least 25 years. I never went to a class for grading hardwoods or softwoods but I know I can grade just as good if not better than these people that teach the classes.
A few months ago I called the local college to see if they had a lumber grading class. I explain to him what I wanted to do, grade and stamp my own lumber. He said they did'nt have a class like that but they could get one made up so I could get my grading certificate. ::) He said the coarse would cost probably around 3 to 8 hundred dollars. ::).
I never seen the beat, what a bunch of crap. I could probably get a grading certificate made up on the puter.
EZ

  Done a spell of reading and in the Goverment site that sets this all to going is DOC PS 20-99 and they call it the Voluntary Product Standards.  From my readings it was a standard set up so when I bought a board from NewYork (heaven forbid it ever happen) and asked for xyz board they would know what I wanted by size and grade and how dry.  The key is, it was passed as a VOLUNTARY measure to clear up some confusion.  Then a group was set up and 7 sub-groups that hold the power to grade and certify those who fell in their region.  Pay lots of coin and play their game and we will help keep your compatition (little guys) down and poor.
  The standards are published in a Goverment book and each sub-group took from it and added some more to be in align with their type of wood.  SPIB would be over my pine and region.  They will not let me play.  So I am not voluntaring to play with them.  
  If my board states the grade by the Goverment rules or SPIB's and I stamp it ARKY AD NO 2 and it meets the standard it is LEGAL.  There are rules for green, rough, air dried, kiln dried and load specs.   I just have to follow the Goverment rules so you know what you are buying from me.  Now if I sell a NO 2 2x4 and some one does not use it where it should be used then the fault does not lie with me.  This is another reason for the rules so blame can be passed around in law  suites.  
  Now had I used those two boards in the wall as planed and I stood up there and they broke I could have sued the mill who produced the boards as well as the grader and the one who sold the board.  I did notice where SPIB has a way to challange bad grades but there was no profit in it.  Just sue them I guess.
   The place where I get my business cards makes rubber stamps.  I will have me a stamp made and get some red ink and stamp away.  After all if the board meets the grade set up under the VOLUNTARY PRODUCT STANDARDS and I am not trying to pass off as part of any of the 7 sub-groups then I do not see much that they can say about it.
  Also there in the by laws it stated that moulding and paneling and such did not need a grade stamp, but could be stamped to aid in telling how good a board it was.

SSMU                            Small Saw Mills United
ARKY  AD                ARKANSAWYER     Air Dried
SYP NO 2                Southern Yellow Pine  NO 2

ARKANSAWYER

Arkansawyer:   Way to Go 8) 8) 8)

I agree 100%.  I cant tell you how glad I am that you posted your gripe on this issue.  8) 8)

Administrators:  Thank you so much for providing a forum for the small guys to get their information from.  The site is priceless.

As I said before, I too will have my own stamps made for my lumber.  I will grade and stamp when needed for a non-educated builder or inspector.

Lets keep up on this issue and let each other know how its going with their local sales attempts.

In closing for me, I cut very little softwood but I know now that when I do and I run into a problem trying to sell it I will be prepared beyond what ever I thought I would be.  Thanks to all for some great informatoin.

Final thought ??? How are us Dummies gonna learn how to grade our lumber??? ??? ::) ::)

Just to make sure were on the same page. NHLA is for factory use as in cabinets and furniture. It is a grade for how many clear cuttings can be gotten from a board. A grader there is an individual I believe.

 The graders for construction uses are stress graders, verifying the strength of the board. NELMA handles most strength grading in hardwoods. I was quoted I think $275/ day plus expenses


We as a nation are moving toward adoption of one model building code. Thus far we've basically had three, most of the country is slowly adopting the International code. This is the one I've been referring to because we've just adopted it in VA.

R-502.1  General. Load-bearing dimension lumber for joists, beams, and girders shall be identified by a grade mark of a lumber grading or inspection agency that has been approved by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu of a grade mark, a certificate of inspection issued by a lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section shall be accepted.


 Deadheader, check the SPF and SYP values on the beam calculator. These tables specify the allowable design strengths, by grade, for species. Span tables account for SYP's increased strength by allowing similar sized yellow pine to span further than SPF. The reason I'm bringing this up is another point on my mind. We should be able to provide a local inspector with good numbers with regards to the sawmill lumber we wish to use. The numbers In the calculator are now from a National Design Standard publication that the International Code references. If you find strength for your particular species and grade and design accordingly, any of these species should be allowed.
  

Good point, Don. I keep forgettin that them calculators are there. ::) ::) ::)

I meant that we should be able to use other woods besides just the few that are on the "big 7's" tables. I've got lots of different trees than that that I want to use. What the inspector should only need is E and Fb numbers and any species is used within its limits. These trees have no reason not to be used in construction they just don't fit into the "pipeline" well.

I guess I keep coming back to where the rubber hits the road. If an inspector wishes to check my grading fine. I can calculate the load based on his tables and can mock it up and throw on sacks of concrete to proof load the board. If the deflection amount passes, it is good for the members they specified as needing a stamp.
On "where do we learn to grade?" I think you can go through the seminars at SPIB or one of the other agencies  ???.  But that will not a grader make.

All said, If I sold a load of 2x i would be willing to accept the liabilty on a strength issue because I would sell reasonable material for that use.  I do know that if the building failed for bad construction or design I would also be sued.  That is just the nature of the game.

Now on the building with local lumber issue.  As I have said before I think only NY and NH have something in place.  I bet that there are no real laws against it but at least in areas like mine, where the local legislative bodies really pay attention, it is hard to get the building permit using local lumber.  DanG even here in NH I have to remind them and show them the legislation and my certificate every time.  The stamp just makes it easier from ther point of view since they have so much else to concentrate on.

Now, I bring up good and bad.  A good sawyer with knowledge will cut lumber that is suitable for its use, stamp or not.  A bad person, I won't say sawyer, with a stamp will put that stamp on lumber and not care what it is used for.

Aand last, a straight grained 2x with major wane is a pain to work with but is very close to the strength of one with no wane.  A cross grained clear 2x will break at a much lower value though it looks quite nice. :P

If go the Western Wood Products Association   on line you will discover the opportunity to purchase a variety of publications on grading of lumber.  If I am not mistaken you will find books on both soft woods and hardwoods available for purchase.  

  Most of the rules are not that complicated and just describe the wane and knot rules.  There are grade rules for looks as well as load specs.  My stamp will just address the looks and soundness of the board as do most construction lumber does.  There are load bearing specs for each type of wood and if a contractor uses the wrong wood it theirs or the someone esles fault not the boards.
    I went to a large mill in south Arkansas and they cut 100 to 150 mbdft per 8 hour shift and have 5 graders.  That means that each grader looks at no less then eight 2x4x8's per minute or one about every 14 seconds.  That is on a slow shift and if you kick it up some then they have just 10 seconds to look and grade a board.  No blinking or scratching nothing.  I now know how them boards and many more got through.   Now in a given year I saw over 200,000 bdft of lumber and about 1/2 of that is SYP.  I come from a long line of carpenters and my son is a carpenter.  Been around lumber all of my life and know a good board when I see it.  One of the reasons I bought a mill is to make my own boards because of the crap that I was asked to build houses out of.  I would wager a months earnings that I could learn to grade boards by the rules and do so with the best of them.  It is just a racket and a way to keep a white boy down.
ARKANSAWYER         SSMU

Remember I almost failed the Nh #2 grades course because I wanted to reject most of what was a marjinal passing board.  I will repeat what I learned there was about cross grain.  The white pine we have up here will fail very easily when the grain runs to around 30- 40 degrees off the length of the board.

How about if I institute the woodmills whack test.  That is Ifin i give it a good whack right off the mill and it don't break then it gets a stamp. :D

James,

That's how my son, Tom,  grades pallet boards :D :D ------leans any questionable boards against a stack and stomps on it.

I went with him once to deliver a load of cutstock.  I told him I wanted to go watch them assembling pallets.  There were several automatic pallet machines banging away.  The guys feeding the machines would periodically pull out a board and stomp on it :D   Made me feel good to know we are using the same high-tech quality control as the big guys :D

Noble,

We have Canadian version up here.

Stompin Tom (http://www.stompintom.com)

Woodmills1, wacking won't work. You will have to use a different term. If you say that you " went through a wack of wood today " we won't know if your talking about quanity or quality.  ;D  
Besides no building inspector will be impressed if you are wacking it. Instead use the phrase " stress testing it".  ;)

Just my two cents worth.
VA-Sawyer

QuoteNoble,

We have Canadian version up here.

Stompin Tom (http://www.stompintom.com)

Good ol Stompin Tom, I dont think the Yanks know who he is, its a shame. They are missin out on my fave...Muk Tuk Annie"..... ;D ;D

Bud the Spud, Sudbury Saturday Night,and  The Man in the Moon is a Newfy.

                                 8)

Hey Percy, Have you ever been to Tilsonburg?

QuoteBud the Spud, Sudbury Saturday Night,and  The Man in the Moon is a Newfy.

                                 8)

Hey Percy, Have you ever been to Tilsonburg?

Lukes Guitar, Ketchup loves Potatoes,The Hockey Song. :D :D :D


No, never been to Tilsonberg. Where is it?? scuse my ignorance... :)

  Stopped on my way back from MO this morning delivering cedar to order my stamp.  It will be here in a week or so.  I will be a stamping stomping fool then. ;D
ARKANSAWYER

I got a letter via snail mail today, bases on y request from a couple days ago.  What they sent me was an application to take one of their 3 classes offered this year in the Portland, Oregon area, on softwood grading.   The woods are primarely from this area of the country (West Coast).   The class runs 4 dfays in length and is said to be higly concentrated; like take a whole year course in 4 days.  What you receive from the class is a certificate indicating that you have taken the class and passed.   They will not issue you licence that says you are certified ti grade lumber, only that you have taken their class and passed, if you pass.  The hook will cost $ 695  and inclued a lunch for each of those 4 days.  I could travel the 75+ miles each day or find a hammock of some sort to lay my head for 4 nights.  They number of students in each class is limited to about 10 or 12 students, with several different teachers throught the 4 days course, that have expertese in various areas.

I am a stamping fool now.  Got my stamp today and stamped away.  If I smear it a bit it looks like one from the box store.
ARKANSAWYER
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/DSC00411FF.JPG)

Way to go Arkansawyer 8) 8)

What are the dimensions on your stamp?
Are you using red ink, blue or black?

For curious minds, I too am a member of SSMU 8) 8)

Hi, Haven't yet plowed through all five pages of this thread, (slooooow dial up connection). Frank, what classes are you talking about? Is that from WFPA? I've been told that the only way to get a grader's license around here is to go work for a mill and get trained and tested. Was told that it would take about a year on the job to get past the test. Not something I'm willing to do. I took an 80 hour crash course in NHLA from a licensed hardwood grader a few years ago, and was grading tanoak well within the rules after finishing the class. I'd be interested in the softwood class you're talking about but 700 clams seems a little steep to not come away able to put a stamp on anything. I did find a grader nearby that will grade softwood for $35.00/hour, so I will be using his services when it comes time to build my place. Never had these kinds of problems in the back canyons in CA, there were no inspectors willing to come out there..

Like the stamp, Arky, lookin' reeeel official-like.

Way to go Arky! Now maybe folks can get some good lumber for their projects.

Been half heartedly following this thread. Today I took delivery of lumber from our local yard for a camp addition. Wish I'd had a camera! Wane, wormholes galore, red rot, one 2x8x12 split 7FEET! The real gem of the load was another 2x8x12 with a spike knot (cracked already)running 5 plus inches across with a grade stamp (#2) directly on the edge of the knot!!???  :oWTF!?!  ???Some of this _____ material shouldn't have made Utilityl!!! Sure glad we got graders to protect us dumb builders!!!  ::)
So Arky- since you now got a stamp- wanna start shippin' North? I'd prefer it without ice on it if possible ;) since everything we've used lately has plenty.

Ok, I feel better after the rant 8)

  My stamp is about 2 inches square and I am using black ink.   I am going to get some red ink when I run out of black.  Most of my lumber will go as it always have but there is times when folks ask for graded and stamped lumber.  I am going to get a grading book from the Southern Pine guys and get all knowed up.   They said that I had to be a mill in production for 3 years before I could apply for a grading stamp.  The mill owns the stamp.  So how can a grader come to my site and grade lumber and stamp it since only a mill can own a stamp?  There seems to be some fishy rules here.
   I had a guy come out in the snow today to get a 12 ft 2x4 that he could use with out knots.  So we brushed off some snow and dug one out.  He handed me a $5 and asked if that was enough?  I asked if he wanted his change and he said keep it as it was worth it to get a board that he could use.  I see that the quality of lumber is going down hill every where.
ARKANSAWYER

My favorite around here is the nice Doug fir 2x6 with the pith and two bark edges in the same board. Guess they just couldn't wait for it to grow into a real sawlog...

Funny thing happened at work today. (funny sad)  I work at a big box home improvement place.  I cut some bands on a bundle of 2x8s the night crew left and the entire top row rose to salute me.   >:( :D   One bowed nearly a foot over 12' !!

I just shook my head and went on to move some OSB out of the rain...  I feel a cull package tomorrow to go with the other 5 outside...

Woodrat, I believe you are correct in the name of the people who offered th class.  I am sorry, I have been looking for the letter they sent but my office help must hve misplaced it for me. :D   They are located in vancouver, Washington, if ZI recalel correctly.

There is a WWPA (Western Wood Products Association) located in Portland, OR that claims to grade about 1/3 of all softwood lumber.  Is that the one you are thinking of?

http://www.lumberbasics.org/

QuoteMy favorite around here is the nice Doug fir 2x6 with the pith and two bark edges in the same board.

I have seen that in 2x4s and even 2x3s!  :o No joke.
Almost like they're taking saplings and feeding them into a four sided planer.

  I  do not know if some of you guys have seen the new mills and what they are breaking down logs with.  But the logs are about 4 inches on the small end and no larger then 15 on the butt.  They are debarked and scaned for metal and chopped to length by a lazer scanner to the best length.  The slabs are taken off by CHIPPER KNIFE heads and it is then rotated 90 degrees and chipped into a cant.  Then it goes through a multiple head resaw and edged to width to see if it will make a 2x4, 6, 8, ect.  Boards rejected as 2X are resawned into 1X  or the next lower width 2X.  The chips go into OSB or fodder for power plants.  They will process 100 to 150 mbdft per 8 hour shift.  No one saws a log in respect to knot placement or quality of lumber.  It is just shucked and dried as quick as possible.  A large log is over 12 on the small end and 20 on the butt.  Most of the time the only time a person sees the boards are when they are graded at speed of 10 seconds per board.
  I would like to have the chipper head set up to process small cedars and save handling the slabs to the hog for chipping.  Just replace the blades on a scragg mill with chipper heads.  It is a good thing I am poor or I would be leathal. ;D
ARKANSAWYER

I talked to a weyerhaeuser contractor a couple of years ago, who said that they were shooting for no tree bigger than a 14" butt, to match their fancy new automated tree grinders like arky is describing. And from the looks of the logs trucks around here, they're getting pretty close to that goal. Seems pretty ridiculous to take a species of tree that can live for 1000 years and chop it down before it's 30, but I guess if one of your primary products is just a bunch of chips and glue squeezed into sheets, then who cares how nice the wood COULD be. That same summer, that guy was clearing 50 year old plantations to make way for the new fast growing fir seedlings that will only live til age 25. What he was clearing had been planted in 1950 to fir, spruce and port orford cedar. They were piling the PO cedar logs to burn  :o ,but when I tried to buy them? No way! That kind of insanity and garbage lumber is why I bought a mill in the first place! If only they would just sell me all their "too big" logs at a nice steep discount... ;D Instead, I think most of those are going to japan at a premium, because they apparently know what to do with a nice 24" fir log. Have we lost our minds? ???

  We really got an edikashun today. Went to the big box store for a saw and blades. Happened to walk by a GREEN treated 2 X 12, actually 1½ X 11-3/8's ::) ::) ::)

  It was SYP and inked with the SPIB symbol. It ran clear across the face of the (board)? like it was run under a revolving never-ending die. ::) ::)  There were 4 LARGE knots running through the (board) and 3 running along the face of the (board), all within 8" of each other, in the center of the face. The large knots were about 2½" across and the center had fallen out. ??? It would NEVER hold my weight ??? ???

  The grade was #2 SYP?????????  Wish I had the camera ::)

GP has put in a huge "chip-n-saw" mill just south of me. That's exactly what it is...just a big 4 sided planer.  They are installing an OSB plant, but it isn't operational yet, so they are shipping the chips out by rail, along with most of the lumber. I'm seeing about 25 cars of chips to 3 or 4 of lumber. I think the only purpose of the graders is to keep ink in the stamping machine. >:(

  DanG, never thought of that. I believe ya got it pegged 8)

I remember seeing an article on a mill that was at Escanaba, MI.  They were buying softwood pulp and anything that would make a 2 x 3 was run through the mill.  They were also curve sawing, so I doubt they were using the chip and saw method.

They were producing an enormous amount of chips and had to ship 500 miles just to find markets.  The amount of material used was staggering when compared to the normal hardwood mill.  I don't know if they are still in business.

I met with a log buyer from the big W outfit out here on thrusday.  I am getting ready to thin a portion of the 320 acres ZI am to manage.   ZHe was telling me their number one and primarey customer is Home Depot.  The HD people want uniformity and consistancy.   He was tellin me about a unit of 2 x 4 studs that had two pieces that had slight wane on two pieces. The whole unit was rejected by the store because of the slight wane.  The mill site I had planned on sending the logs to would not accept any log with any sort of defect.  As was mention about size by Woodrat is exactly what was said to me about size for the same company, Weyerhaeuser.   The quote on price was $55 a ton for the better logs.  If I would take the time to sort at the landing and send them a couple of loads they would see if the mill would accept them.   We have decided that I will send them 60 miles away to another mill and not take the time to sort and the landing.  Time for that is toooo costly.

Arky, you got me excited about the stamp issue.  I am going to see if I can find an outfit near by that can make a stamp for me.  

I hear you guys dissing the lumber at the big box stores repeatedly for the lack of quality and I just gotta think that it must be regional. We have some local smaller lumber companies and it was shameful the lumber they tried to sell you before H.D and Lowe's came along. And the sons of beeches would absolutely not let you sort. There was more then once I took my ticket out, they would load the boards, I would look at them and say that that and that is not usable cause its garbage and they would say "Sorry, we have a no sort policy"  I would say, see ya, give me my blinkin money back, you ain't telling me what I "Have to" buy.

That has changed immensely due to the competition of the big stores. The quality of the local lumber companies has went up dramatically as has their customer service. I try to buy there when I can, but usually because of economics I travel the 20 miles to Home Depot, where I find that I don't have to sort very often because the lumber is really pretty dang good. For an example on the economics, I needed 5 sheets of 1/2 good one side plywood for the kitchen floor for underlayment.I figured I would just buy it up town. 28 bucks a sheet! Called Home Depo and it was 19 dollars. It don't take a weekend sawyer( ;D) to figure out ya drive the 20 miles to save 45 dollars.

I'm agreeing with Jeff, and have been fortunate to have a local yard that has stuck with buying good quality lumber, even tho they had to suffer loss of some business to the box stores. But I now buy there almost all the time, and instead of sorting at the yard (they will allow it), I buy 20% more than I think I need. When I get it home, I sticker it all, as I know at least one side of the top boards will start drying and shrinking as they are likely 20% MC and in an environment seeking 8-12%. If I don't use all the lumber in the project and its not anything I want to keep, I return it for a refund. Usually it is still straight but not the cream of the crop (grade). In any grade of lumber, there is the high (top) end of the grade and of course, the low end.  For sure, the low end gets all the attention.

These box stores error when they store lumber outside in strapped bundles at 20% MC, and then bring them into a heated store, pop the bands, and watch the surface of boards dry out, seeking probably 8% MC.  I think they would do themselves a lot of good to sticker the wood when they bring it in, thus allowing it to dry equally on both faces, and reducing the number of pieces that are tossed due to warp.

It is indeed pathetic to look at the lumber in these stores, going every which way, mostly because of uneven drying. True, there are things like compression wood that cause the warping too, but most I suspect is uneven drying. It is a loss for the store which is passed on to the customer, as no one in their right mind would buy it warped.

that's the catch22 that gets by  most folks.  There are two ways for paying for lost inventory.  The first is "the cost of business".  That means that the company takes the hit.
The second is " Pass it on".  That means that the customer pays for the bad wood whether he takes it home or not.

I tend to do my business by accepting some things as "the cost of business"  That is dulling blades, fuel, wear and tear, etc.  The customer only sees some of those costs as an encrease in base when I can no longer support them.  

Big Stores that have lost the intimate dealings of a single sale seem to have a tendency to "pass it own".  A small businessman who sees them doing business like that (ie, no sorting) can put a hurtin' on a big box store.  He can make people want to do business with him.  Gotta be able to see past your nose though., :D

I agree, since home depot and lowes the local lumber co. in town has built sheds and ALL it's lumber is kept in the dry.  In most cases their prices are either competive, or better than the box stores, and if they ain't, I argue with them, and usually win!  The quality is much better than what others have talked about here.  There is a Marvins in tupelo, load your own lumber, and pick through it as much as you want.  Compared to Union Lumber CO.  their wood is all junk, even if you break open a new bundle that hasn't been picked through yet.  

I've also seen some crappy plywood sometimes at stores. But this didn't come from the mill. It was all to do with the handling and the cover it was stored under at the depot. I'de have to sort through 3 or 4 , maybe more sheets of birch plywood to find a sheet that wasn't water stained,  whorped and coming unglued. And the softwood lumber was so beet up that it looked like the hired help was using the fork lift for front-end impact testing. Sometimes the lumber at mills will come out looking like utility grade though. All splintered and rough sawn. The machinery is being pushed too hard in my opinion. Instead of trying to saw 200,000 250,000 per shift they should scale her back to 100,000 or 150,000 per shift. The lumber would look alot nicer. I remember the older sawmill here and it was indead better lookin lumber at 100,000 per shift, and alot more people working.

I thought that maybe I was the only one that was particular when buying a board. They usually hate to see me coming as the more I have to sort, the more they have to re-pile. One usually likes to have a "sound and somewhat staight board" if they are calling it lumber. I usually tell them that what they are calling lumber doesn't even make good firewood.

I know that the logs we harvest are much better than that.

Ron:

Yup I know they are good logs we sent off that hardwod lot with the huge  veneer red spruce. If you truck them up to the sawmill, they can't saw them, they send them over to their Maine veneer plant. We should have gotten $1000/mfbm USD for the 18 inch + topped ones and $700/mfbm USD for the 14 inch toppers. But, couldn't seem to get them there and they went to the mill here....man what a loss at $380/mfbm CND. I still couldn't figure out why we couldn't get them there. There was the odd one with wind cracks, I'll have to say. I don't seem to see that in white pine here. Odd  ::)  
I picked quite a few seed that year in September from the tops as did another group for Forestry Canada. The spruce were taller than the hardwood, but not exceptional, they tapered like Hemlock.
Ron I seen some nice veneer red spruce in Va (Jefferson National) and in the Smokies, there must be some wing dingers over your way. The ones I seen were in parks, but there has to be some on private. The ones we cut where on a community watershed, where we had restricted access to select harvest. Every tree was marked and trails ribboned. The red spruce regeneration was thick on that shaly ground, too dry for balsam fir. But their was huge 18-30 inch fir and white spruce in the deep gullies, which we couldn't touch. We could reach the odd fir off the roads and I was surprised they were sound as a nut and not culverts. As they say, everything is big on the Tobique. :)

My granddad was a cabinetmaker.  He went to one of the chain type stores before HD and Lowe's come along.  He was in his 90s by this time.

He knew lumber, and what he could use and what he couldn't.  He spent several hours going through their lumber and walked away with a few boards that he needed for his project.

The manager talked to my cousin, who drove him to the store.  He asked if he bought much lumber.  Not too much, so the manager asked that she take him someplace else the next time.  That store's no longer in business.

Our local building supply has been in busines for well over 75 years.  You can go there and pick to your hearts content.  They also sell a higher quality product at a lower price than the chains.  That's where most of the contractors go.  

Ron W:

Your grandpa did just right. It seemed there was once a time the hardware store had all you needed, now I have to order from a catelog to get all what I need for small hardware on wood projects. Otherwise, I'de be travelling all over the country to find stuff and never get it all. I order bulk screws for 1/10 the price the locals want. I was to Kent Home, similar to Lowes here in NB and they had a bin of head bolts each one marked for $1.74 and I can get them bulk for 0.25 each. I said you have to bring your prices down alot more than that. He gave me the same old spill about overhead, I guess he didn't think my supplier has overhead either. I walked away. All I go there now for is my plywood. I don't buy lumber there because if you figure out their board footage, there getting $10,000 a thousand  :D  :D. I can buy fresh lumber for $0.50/foot right off the end of the sawmill and dry it locally for $0.80/foot. Way cheaper by a huge magnitude. They wouldn't have the problem of overhead if there prices were not out of this world. I can get all the white ash I want, all kilned from the local flooring mill, $0.80/foot. Plus I already have a barnful of wood of umteen species from the woodlot to work down through. Can get all the cedar I want 1 mile up the road all milled. I like to line stuff with cedar....sniff sniff...nice smell  :)

regards

Comments on softwood lumber standard sought
   I am taking this from a publication I just recieved in the mail, today.    The publication  is called Forest Products Equiiment.  The artical I am refering to is on mage 34 under the heading of "News".  "The National Indstitute of Standards and Technology is seeking public omment on Voluntary Product Standard (PS) 20-99 is available at http://tx.nist.gov/docvps.  Comments, suppoorted by data, views or arguments, should be submitted toNIST by March 31, 2004.  They should be sent to Joanne Overman, Standards Coordination and Conformity     Group, Standards Services Division, NIST, 100 Bureau  Drive, MS 2150, Gaithersburg, MD, 20899-2150.  Electronic comments can be sent to joanne,overman@nist.gov.


  Here is our chance to voice a concern about just the big boys grading their lumber and excluding the little guy from taking part in their  lumber game.