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General Forestry => General Board => Topic started by: shopteacher on January 11, 2004, 10:22:35 AM

Title: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: shopteacher on January 11, 2004, 10:22:35 AM
Yesterday was one of those good news-bad news days.
Good News: I went and picked up a Festo power feeder I bought the day before on Ebay and got a really nice machine for 100.00.  It does need 2 new rollers and the Horizontal arm is missing from the stand, but that's normal when buying used equipment and I new it before bidding.
Bad News: Friday I picked up an old Allis Chamers 3 phase 10 hp electric motor that I've been looking for to build a rotary phase converter from. This one was perfect for the job. The shaft had been burned in half from it's removal from the machinery is was attached to, but I was going to cut it back to the end bell anyway.  I had this thing in the back of my pickup and got the dolly out with the hyd. lift too get it down and into the shop.  Oh, by the way, this motor weighs 400 lb. So I get the dolly plate even with the tail gate and wrestle the motor on to it and decide to move it back away from the tail gate a little before letting it down to the ground. Well wouldn't you know it the dolly tipped sideways and that motor came down right smack on the end of the shaft leaving a big chip in the concrete.  At first it appeared not to have done any damage then I seen it. A large crack running 95% of the way around the back end bell.  The cast iron was pushed out about 1/8" and I couldn't believe my eyes. Kind of gives you that sickening feeling to see something like that.  Loaded it back onto the cart and got it into the shop and dismantled it.
As it didn't break all the way through I figured I had nothing to loose by trying to weld it. Hammered the cast back in place, cleaned the area and stuck it in my wood burner for awhile to preheat it. Welded the whole thing inside and out with 347-16 stainless and wrapped it in duct insulation and set it on top the wood burner till this morning. Unwrapped it, run the 4" grinder over it with the knot wire brush and can't see anyplace where the weld pulled away from the cast and no crack in the weld bead so I think it's going to work out after all.  I have to repair an aluminum cup behind the bearing that holds grease. Broke the threaded ears off so I'm going to have to fabricate something to hold it in place.  If I had only dropped the dolly down before trying to move it this would never have happened. Hind sight, don't you just love it.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/ACMOTOR6.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/ACMOTOR5.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/ACMOTOR4.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/ACMOTOR3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/ACMOTOR2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/ACMOTOR1.jpg)




Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Fla._Deadheader on January 11, 2004, 10:30:58 AM
  Nice lookin bead. That a stick welder or mig???
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Tom on January 11, 2004, 10:37:39 AM
I'm impressed!

I'd have been there with a tube of JBweld or Elmers glue.  That's the kind of fixer I am.  You guys amaze me. :)
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: shopteacher on January 11, 2004, 10:39:01 AM
Thanks FDH.  All Stick, sold my mig machine when I got out of the logsplitter business. Went through the pipefitters apprenticeship and got some pipe welding there. Also did some OJT with a welder as part of the Army's early out program in 1971
    Oh, BTW, dropped your name while talking to Dave at Kenne-Saw.
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Fla._Deadheader on January 11, 2004, 10:45:50 AM
 :o :o  Don'T know if that is good or bad :o :o ;D ;D ;D

  Didja try them Monkey's yet ???
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Corley5 on January 11, 2004, 10:47:51 AM
That is a nice welding job!!  Almost looks factory ;D
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: etat on January 11, 2004, 10:54:13 AM
Way good Job,  absolutely professional all the way.  My gawd can I relate to the part about the moment's stupidity part though, Yes sir re buddy!   Thanks for tellin how ya fixed it! :) :) :)
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: D._Frederick on January 11, 2004, 12:58:44 PM
Shopteacher,
Glad you were able to salvage your motor, but am glad that thing did not fall on you, could have done some real damage. Your next step is to see that it will still fit, hope that you have no warp.
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Gus on January 11, 2004, 06:32:11 PM
That is a fine looking welding job shopteacher. I can weld but would have never attempted that one. My hats offf to ya'. Oh, by the way, glad to here somebody else does stuff  like that too.  ;) I hate it when I do that. >:(
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: WV_hillbilly on January 11, 2004, 06:43:47 PM
  Shopteacher

    I used to work at a motor shop and that looks like a fine repair job. The windings in that motor look like the are not very old . So hope fully you can fix the bearing caps and get back in business. We  used to braze a piece of cast back where those ears broke off and retap the holes .

    I  have been have on of those months so far  , not just a moment.The First weekend of Jan . I locked up the motor on my log splitter. It  took me an hour to find my splitting maul to finish the job . Now I remember why it was lost .  :D  Motor is done so time for a new one of them. Then last weekend I  was scrollsawing an order and broke the scroll saw  . Don 't know what happened , and repair shop hasn't got back to me to give me the damage report . Then today I went down in the woods to get another cherry log that I had down and got the tractor stuck . In my infinite wisdom I didn't put the chains on . That was a big mistake . So I figured will I was there I would cut a little firewood . Mistake  number 2    of the day .Somehow the sting on my Carhartt jacket got sucked it to the starter  rewind and flywheel underneath it  on my 3 month old Husky 372 xp :'(  . I didn't even know what had happened but the starter handle was on the ground and the saw stalled out . Upon closer inspection the starter rope and string from jacket were wraped around the fly wheel of the saw . So I say a few choice words and go to  house . Not a very happy camper .Take saw apart and find out that the recoil spring for starter is broke , the outside starter housing is broke and the air box has a 1/2" hole in the side of it the shape of the starter handle end . At that point I went out by the barn and lit a pile of scrap stuff on fire just to watch it burn  8) . Then went inside and  helped my boy build some lego  things . So tomorrow I guess I be buying some new saw parts . :(

  Unlike you I have nothing fixed so I have Pout until I get some more parts. Or better yet I 'll go back to work tomorrow and see if I break something there cause we gots a mechanic that fixes tings there .  :D
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: shopteacher on January 11, 2004, 07:09:35 PM
Gee, WV Hillbilly, you make my little motor situation seem like nothing at all. Hey, you ain't that guy on TV with the big storm cloud over him are ya?  I plan on getting the motor back together tomorrow, painted it up real pretty, Kelly Green. Then we'll see how the repair worked out.  I have a number of machines that require 3 phase power and want to build a bigger phase converter than the one I have now.  This baby should work like a charm if'n shes OK.  Gonna have to meet up with you and Dugsaw one of these days.  Were not that far apart.
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Stan on January 11, 2004, 07:14:47 PM
Droppin' treasures is why I bought a crane for the back of the pickup truck. Only thing that got stuck was the wife's antique high boy dresser, DanGed thing was higher than the crane.  :-/
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: WV_hillbilly on January 12, 2004, 06:54:09 PM
I'm all better today  cause I'm wearing out someone elses tools  :D .  That rotophase project  looks pretty neat .  In the almost 7 yrs. I worked in that motor shop we never did build one of those rotophases . They always just bought them and I installed them .

  The equipment breakage is to be expected at some point of it's life . The splitter motor 6 yrs. inservice , scrollsaw almost 3 yrs . I've  put quite a few hours on both of them but the Husky was a real shocker .  

We will have to get up your way sometime . Dugsaws is real close to you . I'm about an hour away.
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Furby on January 14, 2004, 02:03:02 PM
Can any of you point me to info on how to build a phase converter?
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: DouginUtah on January 14, 2004, 02:56:10 PM
This is the one I have bookmarked. Probably lots more.

http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html

-Doug
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: shopteacher on January 14, 2004, 05:12:38 PM
Furby, here are a couple other sources for info on phase converters.
http://www.laserfx.com/Backstage.LaserFX.com/Hobby/PhaseConvert.html

http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/Articles/phaseconverter.htm

http://www.cncpros.net/phaseperfect.pdf
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Furby on January 15, 2004, 02:26:32 PM
Thanks guys!
I "think" I can do that!  ;)
One more thing to add to my "to do" list.   ;D
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Tim on January 17, 2004, 01:53:34 AM
looks like I've finnaly found a use for all those old 208v 3 phase motors I have kicking around...

When I have a day like that WV-Hillbilly... I find me a movie to watch and hope that the TV doesn't blow up in the process... Sometimes its cheaper to forgo the production and save the tools...
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: shopteacher on January 18, 2004, 05:06:08 PM
Just an update on the motor:
  Got it back together today and it turns as smooth as a baby's bottom. The bell seems fine, no problem getting the bearing back in or fitting the bell up to the motor shell.  
The retainer ring pictured was cut out of 1/4" aluminum plate on our CNC router. Perfect fit. That machine will cut within 1/2 thousandth. Mounted the cabinet for holding the capacitors and relays for the converter.  She should be spitting out the volts, amps, watts, phases and anything else required to run my three phase equipment. This motor was built by Alis Chalmers. Does anybody know anything about these motors and if they still manufacture them?
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/PhConv1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/PhConv2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/PhConv3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/PhConv4.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/PhConv5.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/PhConv6.jpg)
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: WV_hillbilly on January 18, 2004, 06:50:45 PM
  That's a nice repair on the bearing cap . It looks like you almost have your rotophase complete .
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Dave_Fullmer on January 18, 2004, 07:23:22 PM
Shop Teacher,

Allis Chalmers went out of business in 1985.  At least the tractor division.  I think they sold the electric motor division to Simonds  (sp?)  When you posted you were going to paint it Kelly green, I cringed.  Then I realized that probably the electric motors weren't painted Persian Orange anyway.
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: etat on January 18, 2004, 08:39:41 PM
Hey Shop!  You're GOOD!  And I can't find a smiley that I like that'd be equal to the compliment!!!
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: D._Frederick on January 18, 2004, 10:06:16 PM
Shopteacher,

Did you check the windings before you went to all this work? They generally don't use a cutting torch to remove a motor if it is any good.
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: shopteacher on January 19, 2004, 03:23:05 AM
Ah D. you don't know the guys I buy from, all they have is a cutting torch.  Their in the salvage business and all they see is copper, steel, cast iron.......etc.  This motor came off a huge mixer from a glass plant and was connected to a gear reducer about the size of a Mack truck engine. Easiest way to get it off is cut the shaft.  You can't believe the stuff that I've seen burned apart for scrap.  They don't have a huge yard and its in - its out.  
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: shopteacher on January 24, 2004, 02:06:58 PM
Got the converter up and running today and must say it better than I could have ever anticipated.  I can't believe how quiet it runs. I believe it has to be due to the mass of the cast iron in the motor. I have a 5hp converter I use to run my metal lathe and milling machine and I hate to start it as you almost have to have earmuffs on to stand the noise. It was made from a fairly new aluminum frame motor which at the time thought would work well, but has been a real noise maker.  This Allis Chalmers rotates at 870 RPM and that also seems to cut the noise.  I took preliminary voltage readings across all three legs and read 239, 220, 246 volt.  Much closer than I would have thought. I'll have to next test it under load, but don't think the voltage will change much.  I'll also get an amp reading from each line once the load is on it.  In the picture you can see it's only temporary wired and I want to make some changes to it as I assemble everything into the panel.  I have a remote control to go on the contactor so I'll be able to start it from anywhere in the shop. I have a momentary switch on the start capacitors now and will replace that with a potential relay to kick the start caps out once the converter is up to speed.  8) 8) 8)Man can't tell you how happy I am with this setup. 8) 8) 8)(https://forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/PhConv7.jpg)
Title: Re: A Moment Stupidity= Hours of Work
Post by: Fla._Deadheader on January 24, 2004, 02:38:55 PM
The good news--bad news is NOT completely over with. ::)

  Good news is-- it works and looks great 8)
  Bad news is--NOW ya gotta give details and parts list for all the rest of us green with envy, on how to construct one of these beauties. 8) 8) :D :D :D