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This is the start of my processor. It is going to be small but have a lot of power and should be fast. The engine has 91 HP  and the pump will be a 30 GPM backed by a 25GPM pump. It will take a 24" log 16' to 18' long
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Awsome start! I think I change something on mine every time I shut it off. Looking for an auto cycle valve for my splitter now. Where did you get parts to build your saw and what are you driving it with?

Your fabrication is better than my flabrication...

It sure ought to be fast...

I bought the saw bar and saw motor from crd metal works everything else I have fabbed myself.

Spent some time on the splitter this weekend, It looks big in the pics but it will fit under the processor. Also got the cylinder mounted and got a few other things done.
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I am impressed!  Very nice.  Are you sure that stop plate on the splitter will hold up.  ;)

NICE shop

COOL! I love watching and reading these threads when members make, build or modify something!
I'll be following this one closely so thanks for posting, jaybe_2!

Looks good. I must agree nice shop.

Looks great..but..with that shop and skills...doesn't look like firewood should be your callling lol

I dont know what my calling is but its not firewood. This is for personal use only, not selling fire wood. I burn 10/11 cord a year my brother burns the same and my brother inlaw burns 12/14  a year. that is all we will be running throuhgt it.

Well it was not easy but I got the splitter slid under the processor. Also thought I would throw in a pic of my homemade boiler.

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Nice.
You have a nice shop or else access to a nice shop to work in. :)

Any more pics of the boiler? Is it auto draft control when the water gets up to temp?

Looks like someone lost their right hand and left it on top of the boiler for the pic.  :o

I will get more pics of the boiler. It does have an auto draft control. It needs no power to operate and keeps the water at a very even temp of your choice. The boiler is under pressure so it can be tied directly into the heating system no heat exchanger needed.  In the late 70s early 80 my farther built and  sold a hundred or more of a smaller version of this boiler, We used ome in my parents house for 15 plus years. my uncle is still using his ( 30 years ) same draft control. The shop is mine and thank you. I still have both my hands but sometimes I think I lost my head. 

Great looking build (processor and boiler), keep the pictures coming, its always nice to see the progress.

GF

I found a little time today to work on the processor. I got the outfeed of the splitter mostly done and the outfeed conveyor started. Its been slow going the last couple of weeks.

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Nice work!

Looks like you have alot of time and money invested in this so far!! It does look nice and well built though! How much do you figure you will have stuck in the processor just for materials?

Right now Im at $3500 (rounding up) And the only thing left to buy is the pump. Its just a crum under a grand. I have about a 120 hours in it though.

Thats really not bad at all for the price of material!!  still 4500 is alot of change, but if it works well and your pleased it will be well worth it!  Yeah its hard to put a value on labor for ones self, that is alot of time, but if ya like tinkering and having a few beers while doing so its enjoyable!!  If you had to make another one and sell it, what would you sell it for??

after further review of your pic.. I might be more jealous of how large your shop is!!!   :o

I think with a new powerplant and just ordering the material to size instead of me making everything it would be in the 25 thousand range. I have no desire to make another one though. Thanks for all the kind words on the shop, it is 75'x100'. It how ever is not just a place for me to play, it is how I make my living. 

A little off topic but how about one of these to pull your firewood in the winter. Its not mine we are just servicing it for a local snowmobile club. It has a 4 cyl. turbo cummins and an allison 5 speed auto.

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loooks like a fun toy!!!  I was debating on buyin one of them a while back, but a smaller version on a four wheeler.. I have alot of things Id like to buy and not enough dough!!  Need to get the wifey working a 2nd and 3rd job!! :D

This is just a joke but if you hire a Crackhead, he will do anything and fast for real cheap I.E: Paint your whole house with just a toothbrush in under a day or split firewood

That kind of hits a nerve with me! My house was robbed by a crack / pill head 3 weeks ago, I think we need to open a hunting season on the them!!! 

I got alittle more done on the processor. The in feed chain is done,also got the tray to bypass the splitter done. I got the hitch done too.

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Great looking machine!
I built one and it seemed to take forever. There were a lot of do-overs during the process.
It can be really frustrating, but, when you finally get it dialed in and doing what it was intended to do, it is great!

Just curious. I am assuming you are using a Danfoss MG77 series for your saw motor. What PSI and GPM are you going to send to the saw motor? And, if I may ask how teeth on your sprocket?

With a little help from a hydraulic shop, I incorporated a one touch clamp/saw motor/saw cylinder function. Once you get the log to the stop, pull one lever the clamp comes down, the saw motor engages and the cylinder extends. I have a flow control incorporated on the saw cylinder so that I can adjust the cutting speed precisely. When the block is cut, push the same lever in, the saw stops the saw cylinder extends and the clamp goes up.

If I ever built another processor, I would do a lot of things differently, but I would do the one touch saw/clamp/saw cylinder again without hesitation.

That is some fine work.  I'd love to see it in operation..

This has been a long project, But it is getting close now. I am doing the one lever for clamp saw motor and saw cylinder. I am sending 2500 psi and 13 gpm to the saw.  My pump is rated at 3000 psi and 30 gpm for the front pump and 2500 psi and 20 gpm for the second pump, both at 1800 rpm. I will try to remember to count the teeth on my sprocket tomorrow. sorry the pics are a little fuzzy I had something on my lens. I still have to paint the hubs and rims but other than that the paint is done.

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Awesome job! Your build quality looks to be on par or better than the commercial processors I've seen. I am jealous.

Looking at my drive sprocket I would call it thirteen teeth. ( they are more like drive pins )

Great job on the processor
I have a manufactured Processor, One thing I would like to have on mine is a Hyd swing set up on the output elevator. When loading a truck you have to stop and move the truck. When running in a pile you have to move the processor about every hour.  smiley_chop

Awesome build,looks great. I'm just starting to get together some info for building one myself. I'm looking at something smaller, like 20-30HP engine. I don't know that much about hydraulics so I'll need to find someone locally who's in the know about this stuff.

Not much going on with the processor this week but I did get the chain on the out feed conveyor.

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Looks great, where did you find that conveyor chain? Simple but effective looking.

Great job!!, it should be neat runnin the first log threw her...

  Dave

Did you use 3" or 4" square tube for the framework?

The conveyor chain came from surplus center as did all the cylinders and valves. The frame work is all 2.5 x 2.5 x .250 tubing.

Thanks, I thought it looked smaller than 4" tube. I'm surprised that 2.5" tube is strong enough but I'm sure you know what you're doing. When do you think you'll have it operational?

Does that chain come with the attatchments on it or did you have to add them yourself?

Pat

I made the the cleats on the chains. larger tubing would just ad unwanted weight, 2.5" is plunty strong.

Excellent job, you take a lot of pride in your work by the photos you shared with us, keep the photos coming we never get tired of seeing pictures of progress.

Nice work!

Jaybe,
Getting any closer to running your machine?
You're SO close!

Im getting VERY close now. The only thing I have left are hoses and I hope to fire it this weekend. Keep an eye out for the video, Here are a couple of progress pics. Im thinking of running auto trans fluid instead of hydraulic fluid, any one have any thought on this? (Blockbuster runs tranny fluid in there's)

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I sent a link to this thread to my friend who is an 85 year old electrical engineer and all around mechanic and builder of many projects..including several sawmills

A man of few words and much accomplishment.

He reply was:

Nice shop and nice machine...oh to have a shop like that

Ditto I said :)

oil? depends if you are running open center gear pumps reg hydr oil aw 68. piston pumps then tdh. do you have a oil cooler?

What would be the advantage of tranny oil vs hydro oil?
Are you going to be running your processor in colder temps? (If so, you could just pull your machine into your  shop and let everything warm up--mine rests in a hayshed...if it's -20, so is the machine!))

In the "for what it's worth" category, following the advice of a hydraulic engineer--I used AW 32 hydro oil in the processor I built and it works fine. There is not a oil cooler on my machine and even running the thing as hard as I could this last summer when it was 98 degrees in the direct sunlight, the oil temp only got up to 155.

Looking forward to seeing the video!

The only advantage to tranny fluid is it does not get as thick in the cold or as thin in the hot, blockbuster said it also keeps your bar and chain cleaner. disadvantage is it will break dow faster. I will only be putting 30 to 40 hrs a year on this thing so I dont see that as a disadvantage.

I've got 4600 hrs. on my Blockbuster still running tranny oil in it with no problems.  I have never changed the oil as it gets fed out to the bar and I just add more as it gets low.

I suppose if you are using air to return some of your cylinders like Blockbuster does, it probably works a little better with thinner oil, especially in colder weather.

I'm curious as to why you would use high priced hydraulic oil that should last say 500-1000 hours and spit it out on the bar in less than 50 hours?   Hydraulic oil has great lubing properties in the right application, but when your always using it up and spitting it out on the bar, what do you gain from it?     Certain transmission fluids run up to 15 dollars plus per gallon and your spitting it out on the bar in place of say 5 dollar a gallon bar oil that has tackifyers in the oil to help stick to the bar and chain longer.   

Certain oils do different things, I'd look for an oil that has the ability to absorb and hold water in suspension as it circulates it throughout the hydraulic system so it won't harm the system pumps and motors, transmission fluid isn't the best for that, some straight hydraulic fluids are not either depending on what they are designed for.     Condensation is always a concern of mine and I'd use either a universal hydraulic oil or engine oil say like a good diesel 10w40 or 10w30 oil and when you change it out, blend it with the bar oil to help use it up and also have some tackiness in the bar oil.   

I'd have separate oils for the bar and hydraulics if it were me and buy the cheapest bar oil I could find, even used cleaned up old engine oil thats been recycled as bar oil would be fine, some companies that put out cheap bar oil are doing just that, recycling used oil for the purpose.   

It would also depend on what the pump and motor manufacturers recommend for their products as far as lubing them, most have some guidelines as far as lubrication and also cooling.   Talk to someone knowledgeable as far as the components your going to be using as see what they recommend for the purpose.   

I've seen it done many times before where someone takes used hydraulic oil out and adds some sticky product like STP and uses it as bar oil, I'd maybe not use old engine oil unless its been cleaned or recycled to remove the dirt and contaminant from it, but used hydraulic oil thats been run through a filter cart to remove the metal and other filterable contaminants would be great, its usually just the water contamination that kills hydraulic oil anyhow, and for the bar, the few parts per million of water mean little virtually nothing for bar wear.       

Price has made my decisian for me, I buy a lot of tranny fluid every year and I buy it in bulk. the best price I could get on hydraulic oil was $525 for 75 gallons, 75 gallons of tranny fluid will cost me $410 so tranny fluid it is. I will be plumming this beast this sat and hope to be done and testing by the middle of next week.

NWP what did you mean when you said block buster uses air to return cylinders?

The splitter, saw, log stop, and flip table cylinders are all returned by air.  They use oil to extend them.  The port on the other end of the cylinder has air plumbed to it from the on board air compressor tank.  When the splitter reaches the end of it's stroke and kicks the detent on the valve, compressed air forces the oil out of the cylinder retracting it.  The oil returns to the tank and the cylinder returns faster than if it used oil.  The extension cycle of the splitter is probably 3-4 seconds and retraction is about 1 second.  The other cylinders are the same principle.  The saw cylinder hydraulic pressure is set high enough to overcome the air pressure but not high enough to get the chain stuck with too much down pressure.  Basically, these cylinders always have air pressure on them and the hydraulic pressure overcomes the air to extend them.  If you start the machine and there is no air pressure built up, if you extend the splitter cylinder it will not retract until air builds up.  The air is always contained within the system.  When the cylinders extend, it gets compressed back into the tank.  It works good.  The only issue I've had with it is having to adjust the hydraulic pressure on the saw cylinder to keep the proper down pressure a few times.  I don't know if I did a very good job of explaining it or not.  Might be clear as mud now.

NWP, you did a good job of explaining it, the problem I've had with those systems is with compressed air comes condensation and moisture enters the system, hench the reason for spitting out the oil to oil the chain and bar, they are getting rid of contaminated oil sooner than by changing it.    It speeds up considerably the rate of return of the cylinders, but water is a drawback of that process, if you were to use oil on both sides of the cylinder ram water or condensation wouldn't be such an issue.    With two separte oil tanks, one for hydraulics and one for bar oil, you could put considerably more hours per gallon on the hydraulic oil than you can with one system and draw the bar oil off of it, now if you go with compressed air return, that will shorten the drain interval of the hydrualic oil due to water contamination.    I llike to have oil on both sides of my cylinders and avoid the compressed air and just live with slower returns, there are ways to speed the return up useing valving and to dirverte more oil flow to the return side of the cylinder, but it'll never be as fast as air assisted return.   

Bar oil option...
On my processor, I bought a radiator overflow tank (easy to see when you need to add oil), a 12 volt NAPA fuel inline sending pump (2.5--4psi) and a T valve. I hooked the electrical connection to the ignition switch (doesn't run when the machine is off). I also incorporated a heavy duty push switch (like the kind on a truck door--when the door is closed the interior lights go off).

On the same shaft that the saw is mounted on, I welded a light "tab" on the shaft. When the saw is in the upright/off position, the tab pushes on the switch cutting the electrical current to the pump stopping the flow. This is handy because it's easy to forget about the bar oiler when loading the live deck etc.

At first, I did not have a T valve and I got way too much bar oil. In temps from 10--95 degrees, I have been able to adjust this set up and get the right amount of chain/bar oil to the chain/bar. It is an inexpensive system--I don't have $50 in the whole works and it has worked very well. Typically "cheap" and "working well" don't go together, but so far so good!
Just wanted to throw out another option.

Builtrite does one cheaper yet, they have the tank and the valve and just the ball valve, no pump and just open and close the valve when they start and stop for the day, otherwise its gravity feed onto the bar, I've talked to plenty that run them and they all gave it a two thumbs up and liked it.    If you forget it, it takes a while for the oil to drain out, since the chain is on the bar, without the chain running it lets the oil out slower than when its running.   Just a thought, do with it as you wish.   

A good friend of mine has a block buster and it is all oil no air return on any of the cylinders, that is why I asked. The plumming starts tomorrow wish me luck!

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I'm not sure if Blockbuster uses the air return on all of their units.  I have a 2222.  The smaller ones might be oil return.

Looking very nice and here is wishing you luck.

No pics tonight but the plumming is almost done. The pilot operated valve for the saw motor was a no show, so I will have to install it first of the week. I can see the finish line!!

Gents, would it be possible to use 2 seperate engines for a firewood processor? I can get an 11 and 16 HP Kohler engines basically for free. they are about 12 years old but have been used very little. I was thinking I could use the 11 HP for just the splitter and the 16 HP for the saw, and the conveyors?   

thanks, Pat

I dont see why not, As long as you have the oil flow you need it does'nt matter were it comes from.

Thats what I thought too. Can the oil come from the same tank or would I need a seperate tank for each engine?

thx

If your tanks big enough, then it shouldn't be a problem, I'd suggest a separate valving setup for each along with separate suction bungs for the oil inlet lines to the pumps on the different engines, that way you shouldn't have a cavitation problem if one would get more oil than the other, works the same for the fuel tank lines as well, just use separate lines if your going to use one larger fuel tank, but if each engine already has its own, then its a nonissue.    If you put your oil filter on the return line, then just use one filter assembly and you should be fine to filter both systems, just return both sets of lines back to one filter housing and tank return   Not sure if your planning on using an oil cooler or not, but those too should be able to be run with one on two systems, depending on how its done.

Thanks, the 11 HP does have a hydraulic pump and reservoir that comes with it. Maybe it would be best to ust go with 2 seperate tanks, wouldn't be that much to add one.

Have any of you guys seen this processor? Uses a belt driven saw activated with a clutch when the handle is pulled down. I talked to the owner and he says it is very reliable?

http://www.blackscreek.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=2

Pat

Looks like if done right you would only need one engine. A belt drive should have more power available to the saw than a hyd. drive. It would be nice if the same action of lowering the bar (either by hand or powered) would engage a clutch or tighten the belt and turn on a oiler.

Someone mentioned using a 12v car fuel pump that would use a door light switch to turn on and off with then the saw bar was lowered/raised for the bar oil. That could probably be rigged up with this system I would think.

Pat

jaybe_2

Looks like you do great work. I would really be interested in some facts and more pics on the boiler. Been doing research for the better part of six months on putting one together. Any info you could provide will be greatly appreciated as I am getting ready to build some wood templates for metal fabrication and design purposes.

Really wanted to get it done for this year but got tied up with two splitters. one at 30" drop over for the front of a T190 skid steer and the other a stand alone . Had to convert the T190 to high flow (what a pain) but after tearing the splitter apart two times and rebuilding now is awesone. Haven't found anything it will not take. Burr Oak, Elm you name it, biggest so far is 36" diameter crotches.

Will get some pics for posting as everyone likes pics including me.

Really interested in the boiler though.

Thanks Westy

westy I will get more pics of the boiler for you.  I made it from 1/4" plate and it holds around 150 gallons. the fire box is 34" wide 38" deep and 40" tall. the water jacket is on both sides, top and back. I had some of the plate bent to cut down on welded seams. The draft control is the sweet part of this boiler it needs now power to operate and it opens and closes slowly as water temp changes so you never get that heavy smoke that owb are known for. Back in the 80s we built and sold hundreds of these boilers with this draft control. I heat a 150 year old 1700sqr house and a new 1500sqf garage. The house is kept at 74 and stays that temp no matter how cold it gets, the garage is set and stays at 65deg. I run the boiler at 15psi and 190 deg. I tied it directly into my gas boiler, no heat exchenger I just turn my low limmit down to 140deg and it never comes on. On the inside back of the fire box I installed a channel that make the draft pull fom the bottom of the fire box holding in the heat. If you look at the pic of the boiler you will see a handle above the door, you pull that out before you open the door and it opens a door at the top of the fire box to let the smoke out so you dont get a face full of smoke when you open the door.

I had a small blockbuster with the air return. Had to have them custom build it. I did it to increase cycle time without needing more power. Air would bring the splitter back so you could start cutting before it was home. Really handy with smaller wood and efficient.

Quote from: patch on January 18, 2012, 04:25:01 PM
Someone mentioned using a 12v car fuel pump that would use a door light switch to turn on and off with then the saw bar was lowered/raised for the bar oil. That could probably be rigged up with this system I would think.

Pat

I use a auto fuel pump on my CSM, it is the low pressure kind that shuts off when it reaches a set pressure level, (it is called a bellows pump , looks like this http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/bel_pump.html) It still works but has given me some trouble by sticking once in a while. I tried gravity feed but around here we get large temperature swings so it it very hard to regulate from day to day, The temperature is 26 degrees colder today than yesterday. I think a positive displacement pump that runs off of the cutter chain drive shaft would be the most reliable, perhaps one from a old chain saw.

Quote from: jaybe_2 on January 18, 2012, 08:24:38 PM
westy I will get more pics of the boiler for you.  I made it from 1/4" plate and it holds around 150 gallons. the fire box is 34" wide 38" deep and 40" tall. the water jacket is on both sides, top and back. I had some of the plate bent to cut down on welded seams. The draft control is the sweet part of this boiler it needs now power to operate and it opens and closes slowly as water temp changes so you never get that heavy smoke that owb are known for. Back in the 80s we built and sold hundreds of these boilers with this draft control. I heat a 150 year old 1700sqr house and a new 1500sqf garage. The house is kept at 74 and stays that temp no matter how cold it gets, the garage is set and stays at 65deg. I run the boiler at 15psi and 190 deg. I tied it directly into my gas boiler, no heat exchenger I just turn my low limmit down to 140deg and it never comes on. On the inside back of the fire box I installed a channel that make the draft pull fom the bottom of the fire box holding in the heat. If you look at the pic of the boiler you will see a handle above the door, you pull that out before you open the door and it opens a door at the top of the fire box to let the smoke out so you dont get a face full of smoke when you open the door.

I think I have the same draft control on my Tarm boiler, It is has "Samson" stamped on the adjuster knob, it works great.

I like the draft opening at the top to prevent smoke from coming out the door. I wish my boiler had one.

Well this plumming thing is NO fun!!!! No matter how hard I try it is near imposible to keep it neet. On the up side all the pressure line are done, only the suction hoses left to do.

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Looks pretty neat from here. Nice work.

Hope to see a test run soon.

Are you making up the hoses yourself, or measuring and having them made?

Im doing the hoses in house.

Simply awesome work bro. You should consider manufacturing them yourself, probably equivalent to a $50K machine

Pat

I think it looks great funny how something so small can be such a pain to run, the place I worked for would try to save money and only buy 1/2 swivels and 1/2 ridged what a pain running a 30' hose can't wait to see it spitting wood out the end  GREAT JOB

I like the oil cooler. I have always admired folks who use things for other than their intended purpose. Looks like something I would do  ;D

No repurpose on the oil cooler it has been a hydraulic oil cooler its whole life. Something i did not see coming was the cost of fittings and hose, it is by far the single most expensive thing on the processor.  thanks for all the kind words.

Fantastic build!!!  Look forward to seeing the final product.

I run into the same thing with most of my projects, the cost of the lines, fittings, electrical,etc, or other small parts really add up quick.  You can't cut corners at this point either.

Nothing to post this week, been sick all week so no processing after work. I do hope to light this candle this weekend though.

Awesome job Jay_be,
I can't wait to see that thing in action! That boiler sounds pretty neat too, Sounds like fabrication is in your blood  :)

 Jaybe
Hope you feel better soon and get your machine running soon. In an earlier post, you mentioned the challenge and expense of all of the lines and fittings--I hear you! A hydraulic guru recommended that I use some solid lines when building my machine. He also suggested mounting the control valves under the shelf so that it was easier to hide the lines and fewer places for chips & debris to build up.

What kind of control valve are you using for your splitting function?



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Quote from: reride82 on January 26, 2012, 06:37:20 PM
Awesome job Jay_be,
I can't wait to see that thing in action! That boiler sounds pretty neat too, Sounds like fabrication is in your blood  :)

I got bit by the fab bug at a very early age

Quote from: blackfoot griz on January 26, 2012, 07:58:14 PM
Jaybe
Hope you feel better soon and get your machine running soon. In an earlier post, you mentioned the challenge and expense of all of the lines and fittings--I hear you! A hydraulic guru recommended that I use some solid lines when building my machine. He also suggested mounting the control valves under the shelf so that it was easier to hide the lines and fewer places for chips & debris to build up.

What kind of control valve are you using for your splitting function?

I like the steel hydraulic lines ,but I had almost no straight runs and I could not find anyone local to bend the tubing.

My splitter valve is just a regular valve the has a detent on the retract side. I chose it because it will handle the 30 gpm that Im sending to the spitter cyl. 

I can't tell for sure, are you running 30 gpm into a 4 or 5 inch splitter cylinder? Either way...you should have an awfully fast cycle time! Also, what are the port sizes on the cylinder?

ports are 3/4" and it is a 4"bore 36" stroke 2" rod cyl. I was shoting for a 6 to 8 second cycle time.  I think Im right around 7 sec,

Hello Jaybe, have been watching your build from Christchurch New Zealand, great job wish you were a little closer to this side of the world, you could help me build one for my operation. All the best for the final stage of the build and final turn key.

Jaybe,

I am impressed and can only say great job. I feel your pain with the hydraulic fitting and hose cost. Have recently built two splitters one for skid steer and another stand alone. Cost of hoses and fittings was hands down the most expensive piece of the fab. As to hard lines as has been suggested by some, sure would not say they are cheaper, unless you have the fabrication capability on site. I had some made for my stand alone splitter, they worked well only because the room was available for sweeps.

As hard as we try sometimes its impossible to keep it clean and neat. You have done an impeccable job.

Hats Off

Westy

Thanks for all the kind words frome everyone.  Well it was a no go on firing up the processor this past weekend. Ended up cutting firewood most of saturday to keep the boiler going untill the processor is up and running. It makes cutting firewood by hand even harder knowing this processor just sitting in the shop. Im just checking and sealing all the fittings and hoses. After that its just hook up the fuel tank and turn the key.

"It makes cutting firewood by hand even harder knowing this processor just sitting in the shop" :D

We used to have to cut a fair amount of firewood in the Bob Marshall Wilderness with a cross-cut saw because nothing mororized was allowed. Oh what we would have given to have been able to use a chain saw! It was hard work and time consuming.

Eventually, we changed our method and would find some large dead standing trees outside the wilderness area, cut 4' blocks, split them down the middle and make 2/3 cuts through the long blocks on 16 inch centers. Two of those 4-foot blocks on a pack mule (one long half round--flat side towards the mule on each side). Then lead the pack string into camp, drop off the big blocks and make another run. Although heavy, the loads always balanced and rode well--didn't have to cover them with a manty tarp--just tie a big block on eack side and go. It was easy to smack the block where the partial cut was and break it off then finish splitting the half round.

My guess is that when you get your processor dialed in, your saw and old splitter may look to you like a crosscut saw and a maul!

As long as I live, I will respect the old timers that only had manual crosscut saws.

Blackfoot

My old splitter is a maul.

Big day tomorrow, we find out if it works.  8)

Can't wait to see/hear how it goes!
I'm still shaking my head...with tons of hoses fittings etc I couldn't believe that I didn't have one leak on mine. I ususally don't have that kind of luck.

Just had a semi load of logs dropped off today and the weather is supposed to be nice tomorrow so, back at it!

Good Luck...I hope your machine kicks _ss!

WOW! 
You sir, are doing an excellent job!  8)

I don't know how I didn't stumble across this thread before, but I just skimmed through it looking at the pics and now need to get caught up reading it.  Can't wait to see how it works, thanks for documenting it!  8)

Well it runs!!! I didnt get to put a log through it Just a couple of dry runs. The pressure relief for the saw cylinder wants to be set at 50 psi, mine was set at 1500 psi and cross theaded from the factory so I could not back it off. I discoverd this after the bar came down on a log and broke the grade 8 bolts that held the bar on. :( :( :( :( :( :(

I will get a new one on monday and send a log through it. One thing is for sure it is going to be fast, at aroung 1200 rpm the plitter cycles in 7 sec. I plan on running at 1800 rpm.

I didnt count how many fittings are on this processor but it must be around 150 or more and I only had 1 loose one. Not bad considering it took almost 10 hrs to tighten them all.

Video to come with the next run.

 

Great!!!
Look forward to the video.

jaybe,

crossing fingers that no other issues come up. Tough luck on the relief settings. Seems like almost always tweaks and redoes with new fabrications.
The drop over splitter I did for my T190 has 90000 ft/lbs. Literally twisted and tore I beam steel first time I used. Ram and block didn't slow down, but that is what a 24'" twisted crotch of elm will do. Classic example of looking at design and saying this may be weak spot but not doing what I thought it may need.

Can't wait to see processor. If your using that much wood what are you heating, shop and house?

Be Well Westy

QuoteVideo to come with the next run.

Don't forget pics for those of us who can't watch videos  ;D

Excellent fab work!!! I'm sure that beast will work as well as it looks. I'm definitely a little jealous too, your shop makes my 60x40 look like a broom closet! Never can have too much room. 

I built a tree grinding attachment for my larger excavator, put together a diesel engine power pack for it as well, 275 hp to the head, the toughest part was to get things dialed in once we got it up and running and all the bugs worked out of it, hope your project is going to go smoother than mine did, I can sympathise with you on the fittings thing, I didn't have that many, but mine were really big hoses and my pump put out 80 gallons per minute at 5000 psi, or a lot of oil really fast when a fitting came loose.   Keep up the good work, in a few months of use, you'll wonder how you lived without it before or why you lived without it.   And yes we need picutures and lots of them, expecially the large cut, split, wood pile that came out of the processor.   

Just a curious question, did you mount guages in the system so see what the pressures were or are you hooking them up to check pressures?   I am also jealous of your shop, by the looks of it, it sure is nice, mine was a tin machine shed with a knipco space heater in it, with a partial dirt floor.

I didnt get down to work on the processor but I did pull out some blowdown.

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Looks like fun  8)

Please excuse my lack of skidder/equipment knowledge, but what is that thing called?  It looks like a beefed up ditch witch on steroids  :D

It is a Vermeer trencher!! I removed the trencher and turned the trencher drive into a winch. It works fantastic.

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Boy must be nice to have some toys like that. But at this point in my life I couldnt even afford the plastic tonka truck version of that!  Maybe I'll ask Santa for that next year

That rig was the deal of the year!! I only have $1500 in the vermeer.  8) 8) 8) The leyland in the back ground was a pretty good deal too I only paid $1900 for it but I had to put a clutch in it.

I'm sure neither of them looked that nice (for that price) when you got them ;). You did a good job in reconditioning them.

The vermeer Is just as it was, just did the winch.  It only had 630 hrs on it when I got it. A good friend of mine has a scrap yard and it came in for scrap.  ;D

Man what a deal. I need to find more good buddies!!!  Looks like a pretty sweet setup you got. Is pullin logs the real use you have it for? Or do you use it for another reason?

What has happend to customer service in this country???? The company that I bought my pump from will not stand behind the pump they sold me. I told them what I needed, a double pump first section 30 gpm 3000 psi second pump 20 gpm 2500 psi. According to them they sell me a pump with those specs. Yesterday the 30 gpm pump broke in half from over pressure. my pessure relief are set at 3000 psi and are not adjustable. So when they tell me I have to buy a new pump because they will not cover a pump that was over pressured, I start calling the company that made the valves. I figure it must be a stuck pressure relief, turns out they have a tech that lives 10 min from my shop. He comes right up to check the valves and finds the working properly so I call the pump company and find out that the pump is only rated for 2500psi and if I run it at 3000psi I will brake it every time. Now I call my supplier back and tell them the pump is only rated for 2500 psi. They tell me that the pump should handle 3000 psi and that the pressure must have been a lot higher than that to brake the pump so they will not cover it. If I had told them this is the pump I want, I could deal with them not standing behind it but they told ME this is the pump I need. I feel this is on them but they dont see it that way.

On the up side the processor was working fantastic right up to the explosion. It would cut a 12" diam. oak in about 3 sec. and split it in 6 sec. Im going to slow the saw down just a little to save on bar and chain wear.

jaybee,

Sucks but on another note what is the VW pic in profile about?

Also when time permits could you get me some specs or what ever on that wood boiler you fabricated. Still looking for info to build my own.

Westy

Sorry for your troubles. Instead of calling them 'the company' I would let the whole world wide web know their name and their dealings. I would start here, then progress to tractorbynet.com, etc. Oh yeah, I would also inform 'the company' that I was doing so. By chance did you pay by credit card? Many card companies will help you out in situations like these.

I am going to give them one more try tomorrow and see if they do the right thing if they dont I am going to call my card company and dipute the charge. I bought a lot of valves and other hydraulics from them and up until this mess they have been good to deal with. I had to exchange a few things along the way and it was no problem they gave me full credit and no restocking fees. If they man up to this I will continue to do buisniess with them, but they have to make it right first.

Unbelieveable. I would demand to talk to the owner of the company. When I have problems with new products or those under warranty and get the run-around, I go straight to the top. Don't waste your time with reps and receptionists.  If that doesn't work, you other options, but most of the time you will get results. Good luck, I'm sure that pump was pricey

Westy Im sorry I dropped the ball on the boiler specs. but I will get the tomorrow for you.

the VW is a 72 beetle I turned into a baja bug. it was a hard top I cut the roof off and put a full cage in. It would go places of road you would not believe.

Better pic of the VW

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If you have the order receipt where you specified the pressures you needed, that would be the best place to start. 

Rule of thumb when working with hydraulics though - ALWAYS over do it and get the next step up from what you need.    ;)

Jaybe,
I hate to hear that. Not sure what brand of pump blew up on you but they should be able to replace the section that blew up....or... did both sections blow up?

I was talked into going with a Parker multiple section pump. They told me that either section is easy to tweak to increase or decrease flow or pressure if needed.

Good luck with getting this resolved!

The pump is made by commercial and sold through lynch hydraulics and I bought it from prc industial in bangor ME. I can just replace the one section but that is still $369.00 for the parts only. That is a third of a new pump but I still feel It should be covered. I had a long talk with a tech at lynch to day and he told me what to look for to see if it was over pressured. He said when a pump is over pressured the gears will chew into the case on the suction side very badly, up to a 1/4" deep. I have a few small marks but nothing like that so he said it was not over pressured. I cant seem to get anyone from prc to return my calls so tomorrow I call my card company to dipute the charge. I bet they will call me then.

Quote from: jaybe_2 on February 08, 2012, 06:19:58 PM
The pump is made by commercial and sold through lynch hydraulics and I bought it from prc industial in bangor ME. I can just replace the one section but that is still $369.00 for the parts only. That is a third of a new pump but I still feel It should be covered. I had a long talk with a tech at lynch to day and he told me what to look for to see if it was over pressured. He said when a pump is over pressured the gears will chew into the case on the suction side very badly, up to a 1/4" deep. I have a few small marks but nothing like that so he said it was not over pressured. I cant seem to get anyone from prc to return my calls so tomorrow I call my card company to dipute the charge. I bet they will call me then.

are you in maine?? i have bought from prc in bangor there were always fine and often times had stuff that the other guys didnt have. dose the pump have ball bearings or is it a bushing pump?? most pumps with bearings dont like a lot of pressure like 2100 or so. bushing pump last one i bought and they looked it said 3500psi. i am running it at 3200psi and have been for 2 yrs. i did have a end housing on the valve bank break in too. replaced it its been fine. so it was the gear sections housing that broke?

I've ordered from PRC online a few times. It's good to know that they act like this when there is a warranty issue at hand. I may have to shop elsewhere next time. Keep us posted how you made out.

As i said before they have been good to deal with untill this point. Im hoping they will call me first thing in the morning and tell me they will take care of this problem.
Im doing my best to play nice but at this point it is getting hard.  I hope when they realize the pump was not over pressured they will step up.

Warranty, that should be a thread all by itself, I too have had problems with warranty issues over the years, I've never delta with the company your working with now but have had plenty of problems with other companies stuff and getting them to step up to the plate.  I'd demand an upgrade right from the start and offer to pay the difference in price between the two units, since it can't take the pressures they stated, try a different route and try to upgrade pumps to a larger unit altogether from them, if not, then dispute the charges, all they are doing now is stalling for time so the transaction goes through.    If they won't deal with you stop the payment and send the pump back as is and shop elsewhere, thats how I'd handle it, I wouldn't waste any time in doing so either and tell them upfront what you want them to do or else how you'll handle it.

Jaybe,
Any resolution on your pump?
I was thinking about your situation while running my processor today. It has to be frustrating when you are so close to having your machine running.
Once you get it running, you'll wonder why you didn't build one sooner! :)

I got the new pump housing friday ( got the wrong one thursday) but no one had the #20 oring fittings to put it together. I got them orderd but will not have them untill tuesday. As far as prc taking care of me, that is yet to be seen but the impression I get is they have no intension of standing behind the part. I dont know what Im going to do if they dont I may might call my card company. One thing is for sure I will NEVER do buisness with them again. On top of this part failure they sold me a pilot operated valve that was not what I needed. They tried to tell me it would work but a tech at prince hydraulics said it would damage my saw motor. I also orderd a selector valve so I could control two cylinders with one lever on my control valve. What they sent me was just a control valve with a double detent. When I called them they said just install it in line after my valve and it will do the same thing. When I would try to use the valve to run my conveyor lift cylinder nothing would happen. When the tech from husco came to check the relief on my valves he looked at it and said that second valve will never work. When I told him it didnt and asked why that was he said you can only do that on valves that have power beyond built in to them. I did not know this but I would think that someone that is in the buisness should. They just wont admitt they made a mistake and I dont feel I should have to pay for their mistakes so we will see.

I hate it when your wronged and they make no effort to at least say sorry!!! If your like me you'll hold a grudge and tell everyone you can the name of the company and how they screwed you over. Im sure it doesnt mean anything to them, but for me its the satisfaction that I maybe stoped someone else from using them!! 

I know a guy shouldnt hold a grudge, but hey it happens! 8) 

It's easy to hold a grudge. Money is hard earned and goes fast in this economy. These companies need to get their act together. If they're going to offer technical advice with their so-called 'experts' to push a sale, then they need to stand behind the sale when their advice is wrong.

the saw can be pilot operated most are. the power beyond is no big deal to install if the valve is setup for it and it will work better than a diverter valve

The tech from husco said my valves can not be changed to have power beyond.  my saw is set up with a pilot operated valve. Im having a little problem with that right now. My saw motor should be running at 4200 rpm and 15 hp at 15 gpm @ 2500 psi. Right now I dont think I have 2 or 3 hp. Im not shure of the rpm. I will have my pump back together tomorrow and I will check my pressures and go from there.

Quote from: jaybe_2 on February 13, 2012, 06:37:58 PM
The tech from husco said my valves can not be changed to have power beyond.  my saw is set up with a pilot operated valve. Im having a little problem with that right now. My saw motor should be running at 4200 rpm and 15 hp at 15 gpm @ 2500 psi. Right now I dont think I have 2 or 3 hp. Im not shure of the rpm. I will have my pump back together tomorrow and I will check my pressures and go from there.

i have a keto ctl harvester it has a tamden gear pump but they are combined to run the head so in total 75gpm at 3100psi whitch should make it close to 50hp when i first got it it wouldnt saw very well it was a problem combining bolth sections of the pump. saws very well now 12" hw maybe 3sec. from the time the saw starts till its back in its box. it takes a lot of oil and pressure. i checked the rpm on the saw with a photo tach 8500rpm.  the power beyond just makes it a bit easier then you dont have to have a diverter valve. i have them on my plow trucks to run the sander. dont know what you are using for saw chain  i use 404 80 gaudage with a chain catcher in case it breaks and stay out of the line of fire. look up chain shot and youll understand why

My motor is only rated at 2500 psi. and crd metal works runs this pump @ 13 gpm ( I got my motor from them )  My pump is rated at 20 gpm at 1800 rpm I can turn it faster and get 25 gpm but I really dont want to. I could also use the 30 gpm side of my pump but then my splitter will run slower and we dont want that. My other choice is to swap out the 20 gpm section for a larger section, 35 gpm is as big as I can go with this pump. 

some of the firewood rigs i have looked at didnt run a very big pump or motor. when i first got my keto it was only useing one section of the pump it wouldnt saw much but it also feeds quite fast. look at a keto 150  on youtube they saw fast

Having owned a timber business for forty years and a welding shop for thirty four, I followed this thread word for word.  I must first congradulate you on a job extremely well done; I haven't seen work  of this high of quality very often in my thirty four years of owning a shop--until August 24, 2011-- when a glitch burnt it to the ground!  Also you are to be commended on being as calm as you have been with your hydraulic problems, which I too have had more than once over the years with my timber equipment.
It seems as though a lot of businesses these days do not appreciate or want our return business.  I sure could not have stayed in business if I had been this way.  Again--you do beautiful work--good luck with your hydraulic problems.

When build my processor I looked at getting a sectional pump but the cost seemed pretty high.  I ended up buying three seperate pumps, one for the splitter that is 28gpm, one for the saw motor, and the other motors that is 20gpm, and one that is 7 gpm for the rams for the six way splitter, clamp, and the cutoff saw.   Below is a picture of the the 20gpm and the 7gpm pumps attached to the flywheel side of the motor, the 28gpm pump is attached the other side of the motor.  I ended up maching the love joy connector some and a pulley that bolts to the love joy so it can drive the 7gpm pump with a belt.   If needed I can replace one of the pumps without having to do anything with the other two. 

The second image below shows a small toggle switch.  When you pull the hydraulic lever to engage the saw chain it engages the toggle switch that sends 12v to the fuel pump to provides oil to the saw chain, when you release the lever it stops the chain and stop oiling.

The third image below shows the front side of the spool valve and how built and attached the actuator are to the lever to engage and disengage the toggle switch.

Another thing I found helpful was how much flow you can get in 1/2" hydraulic hose, 3/4" hose etc.  If you have a cylinder with 1/2" ports and running 1/2" hose to it the estimated  max GPM is 12gpm, with 3/4" hose is 27gpm, if your pump for the splitter is putting out 28gpm and you are running 1/2" hose to the splitting cylinder you are only getting around 12gpm and creating excess heat because of the restriction.  The fourth image below has a hydraulic flow rate using hose and pipe, I used it as a reference when sizing hoses to the pumps etc.  The 5" cylinder I used had 1/2" ports,  I ended up enlarging to 3/4" to speed the cycle to match the gpm of the pump and keep the heat down, the cycle time is a little under 8 seconds.

GF


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GF
You make some very valid and important points referencing port sizes, line size vs pump GPM's and cycle times. There are many flow calculators on line which can be used if one doesn't believe maximum proficiency is being achieved. Very nice looking work.

Jaybe,
I am using the same exact saw motor that you have--with a 13 pin chain drive. There's a max of 15 gpm @ 1500 psi going to it and it works just fine. I ended up installing a flow control that regulates the volume of oil that goes to the saw cylinder.Why? I use it on nearly every cut. When I cut through a block and it falls into the splitting chamber, I advance the log on the live deck and start the next cut while the splitter is still going. Sometimes the splitter 2 stage pump kicks in (knots/twisted stuff) and I can slow the saw cylinder extension speed without stopping the chain speed.

You have a lot more HP on your machine than I do. Ultimately, it's a matter of timing of matching cutting speed and splitter cycle speed.

BTW...in my opinion, GF is the man when it comes to fabricating...the processor he built is top notch and you should check out the bandsawmill he built...simply incredible!

I am using basically the same motor at Blackfoot_Griz, I have is set at 18-20gpm with the relief set at 1500psi.   I did have the relief set at 2500psi since the motor was rated for 3000psi, problem I ran into was I was shearing the grade eight bolts on the bar, I could put a lot of force on it and the motor would not stall.  Now I watch the pressure gauge on the saw motor and I also also adjusted  the pressure way down on the ram for the cutoff saw, so far it has seemed to work fine and I can feather the spool valve to control the speed of the cut.

GF

GF I have looked at and read your build thread many times and I must say you did a fantastic job!!! I talked to TST ( the supplier of my saw motor ) and mine is rated at 18 gpm at 2500psi so that is what Im going to sending to it. Im running 30gpm at 3000psi to my splitter with 3/4" hose and 3/4" fittings on the cylinder. I did not want to run a two stage pump on my splitter and wanted a pump that I could add or remove a section if I wanted, that is how I ended up with this pump. Im running 91 hp and after adding this third pump I will be pushing 68gpm at 1800 rpm. 30gpm for my splitter, wedge lift cylinder and the cylinder for my splitter bypass tray. 20 gpm will be going to my clamp cylinder, saw cylinder, infeed conveyor motor and my out feed conveyor motor. and 18 gpm to my saw motor. I am only running 50 psi to my saw cut cylinder and it still stalls the motor. That works out to around 150 to 160 lbs of force from that cylinder, That seems about right to me but I could be wrong. Every thing else on the processor work exellent my splitter cyles in about 6 seconds and that is a 36" stroke. my clamp is fast and holds with around 1000lbs of force and my conveyors will move fast if needed but are very adjustable. Considering I knew VERY little about hydraulics when I started this project Im happy this is my only problem. On a side note PRC industial has refused to stand behind the bad pump housing so they have recieved their last dollar from me and would caution any one dealing with them do not rely on their advice for anything. Im now dealing with Cortney at lynch hydraulics and he is on the ball when it comes to pumps. He is also the one that told me the pump housing I broke was realy only rated for 2500psi.

"Im now dealing with Cortney at lynch hydraulics and he is on the ball when it comes to pumps. He is also the one that told me the pump housing I broke was realy only rated for 2500psi."

Cortney...we're all watching you :)

Jaybe, we're rooting for you to get this thing running. Like you attested to, I didn't know too much about hydraulics when I started. After getting it done, I realize how much I still dont know!

GF helped me out a bunch as we were both building our machines at the same time (that said..he doesn't want to trade machines!--I don't blame him!). If I had to do it all over again, there would be some things I would do differently, But I have to say that with a 38 hp gas engine, I can on average, run a block through every 10 seconds with a 6 or 8 way splitting knife. After running 30 or so cords through my machine, I can say that I am happy with what it does.

Working alone, I still spend much more time dealing with the finished firewood than running the machine.

Now I'm thinking about building another one...my wife has the icepick out ready stab it into my temple!

This is real interesting, your saw motors and GPM are close but I am wondering how your chain speed compares.Oregon recomends a min of 3000 feet per min to 8000 FPM
chain speed =RPM x teeth on sproket x .067 (.404 chain) =feet per minute

TeaW,
     Using your calculation I run at 3000rpm using a 16 tooth sprocket which calculates out to 3216 fpm.   I was trying to keep mine on the lower end of the scale to keep the torque as much as possible.

GF

Using those calculations mine will be running at 4,355 fpm. still a little on the low side but not bad.

Well Im starting to think I have a bad saw motor!!!  Today I got everything put back together and my saw motor will still stall. Im putting 18gpm at 2500psi and that should be 5000rpm and 21hp but it seems that the motor is turning slower than when I was putting 13gpm to it. Any good hydraulic guys in southern NH?

I think you need to start with a flow meter and pressure test at your valve, otherwise its just a guess as to whats wrong, you could have a bad valve, I'm not sure what valving your using, is each valve setup with its own relief?   Can you swap circuits with another valve to test your motor out, one you know is good.   As for good hydraulic guys never do any business with anything associated with sunsource hydraulics.   Some friends of mine and myself have several hundred thousand dollars worth of bad experiences with that business.     

I'm not fully seeing your valving or plumbing setup, I've had in the past bad hoses, or some that were collapsed in the middle, even new one's that closed off the circuit, try swapping hoses out, also see if theres any metal flakes anywhere in the filter, you could have had some in somewhere and put a slug of stuff in the motor itself at start up, another experience I've had with bad hydraulics shops.   I've had bad check valves in new valves before, things stuck in new valves that restricted flows, about anything imaginable.   Did by chance you run some cleaning swabs through the system and hoses first before start up?    Pre filter the new oil before dumping it into the system?   Pre charge the motors and pumps before start up so they never started empty?    Any of these things left out can cause metal flakes to foul the system in seconds at start up.   

a flow meter sure would be nice.you could put a load against watch press. flow temp. have you teeed a press. ga. into the saw motor? press side. is the return a little bigger hose? is the return filter restricting it? do you have a photo tach? can you take some more pics? pump valve motor any and all

is there anything else running off the pump section that powers the saw? if even the cyl that moves the bar would rob flow. with my keto i belive they power the saw cyl with return oil from the saw motor. that way there is no loss of flow to the saw motor

Jaybe,
This may be a longshot, but I also got my saw motor from CRD. The MG  is a directional motor intended to spin in one direction--the one I got was clockwise and of course, I had to reverse my saw configuration not knowing that it was a directional motor when I ordered it.

The only thing I can add is that I am using the same saw motor. I split 15 GPM @ 1500 psi for running the clamp, saw motor and cylinder and it works fine running all 3 circuits at the same time. With your increased flow and PSI, yours should zoom.

Really curious to see what your problem ends up being.

an open center system thats what you have will not run 2 or more cyl or motors at once and do it right unless it has load seniseing pressure compensating valves. it cant be done. it may work somewhat but not right.

Quote from: snowstorm on February 19, 2012, 02:03:01 PM
an open center system thats what you have will not run 2 or more cyl or motors at once and do it right unless it has load seniseing pressure compensating valves. it cant be done. it may work somewhat but not right.

Little confused...you tell me what I have... than say it doesn't work.
???
My set up is a load sensing unit. 15 gpm @ 1500 psi go to a manifold. From the manifold, there is a pressure and return line for the clamp, saw and saw cylinder. I split the pressure side line of the saw cylinder and installed a flow control on the operators station.

So once a log is forwarded to the log stop, I pull one lever... first the clamp comes down then the saw motor and cylinder engage and it cuts the block. When the same lever is in the neutral position...nothing happens... PUSH the same lever the clamp goes up then the saw. This works very well.

Jaybe should have a lot more umph because he has more volume and PSI than mine does. I just can't tell how he's configuring the flow on the circuit. I'm anxious to hear what he discovered.

Quote from: blackfoot griz on February 19, 2012, 04:41:58 PM

Quote from: snowstorm on February 19, 2012, 02:03:01 PM
an open center system thats what you have will not run 2 or more cyl or motors at once and do it right unless it has load seniseing pressure compensating valves. it cant be done. it may work somewhat but not right.

Little confused...you tell me what I have... than say it doesn't work.
???
My set up is a load sensing unit. 15 gpm @ 1500 psi go to a manifold. From the manifold, there is a pressure and return line for the clamp, saw and saw cylinder. I split the pressure side line of the saw cylinder and installed a flow control on the operators station.

So once a log is forwarded to the log stop, I pull one lever... first the clamp comes down then the saw motor and cylinder engage and it cuts the block. When the same lever is in the neutral position...nothing happens... PUSH the same lever the clamp goes up then the saw. This works very well.

Jaybe should have a lot more umph because he has more volume and PSI than mine does. I just can't tell how he's configuring the flow on the circuit. I'm anxious to hear what he discovered.

i was talking about jayb set up. load sensing pressuer compensated valves arent real common with an open center system. piston pumps in almost any excavator built in the last 20 yrs yes. with a open center system lets say you have 3 valves stacked to gether. move the spool it directs flow to the work port. wide open all flow goes to work port crack it a little a lot goes to return open a valve next to it. it will get some flow but the path of least resistance is back to tank. so it will not operate to things at once with the power and speed that one might expect. a flow control priotry valve will help. its been a long time since i went to bolth deere and case factory school i am sure things have advanced a lot over the years. i have 2 valmets with open center with load sensing pressure compensated valves they work quite well. my cat excavators have load sensing with piston pumps. faster less heat much more pressure up to 5000psi. wasnt saying yours wont work . just surprised it works well with only 15gpm and 1500psi. when i bought the keto ctl head it was only flowing 35gpm at 1900psi it was really slow a new pump and replacing some shuttle valves its were it should be 75gpm at 3200psi that all runs thru computer controled valves.

Does Jaybe _2 have the same manifold as blackfootgriz ?

snowstorm, you beat me to that one, I've been thinking along the same lines myself, maybe thats why the bar cylinder breaks bolts or stalls the chain out and there's no power to the chain motor.   If things are hooked together, off the same circuit bank, unhook everything but the saw motor, make sure its not a directional motor as stated, and make sure nobody sent you the wrong valve by mistake, you need an open center valve with an open center system, seen that mistake made before too.   Not sure how your plumbing everything, but without rereading the whole thread, is a power beyond valve needed by chance?   If somethings work and others don't on the same circuit, and don't get better by switching circuits, then its in those components in the circuit somewhere.   

Quote from: Randy88 on February 19, 2012, 06:20:56 PM
snowstorm, you beat me to that one, I've been thinking along the same lines myself, maybe thats why the bar cylinder breaks bolts or stalls the chain out and there's no power to the chain motor.   If things are hooked together, off the same circuit bank, unhook everything but the saw motor, make sure its not a directional motor as stated, and make sure nobody sent you the wrong valve by mistake, you need an open center valve with an open center system, seen that mistake made before too.   Not sure how your plumbing everything, but without rereading the whole thread, is a power beyond valve needed by chance?   If somethings work and others don't on the same circuit, and don't get better by switching circuits, then its in those components in the circuit somewhere.

and nobody thought i knew what i was talking about......thanks

I have posted a not so good hand drawn pic of my hydraulics for the saw motor. The relief valve on the clamp cyl. bypasses to the saw cut cyl when the clamp reaches 800psi and the relief on the saw cut cyl. bypasses back to tank. The relief on the saw cut cyl. is set at 50psi. I am no longer splitting the flow from a pump, I added a third pump to run my saw motor but it has no more power than it did before the new pump

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26170/DSCN0077.JPG)

Tried to make the pic bigger so it was better to see but my scanner wont work. so I had to take a pic of this drawing and post that. If any one can make it bigger that would be geat. I cant seem to get anything to work these days.

Quote from: jaybe_2 on February 19, 2012, 07:40:47 PM
Tried to make the pic bigger so it was better to see but my scanner wont work. so I had to take a pic of this drawing and post that. If any one can make it bigger that would be geat. I cant seem to get anything to work these days.

so you have 1 pump running the saw and it runs nothing else? why do you run the saw cyl off the clamp? you only get oil to the cyl when the clamp is in relief? i will look at the hydr drawings for my keto but am sure the saw cyl takes its oil from the return line from the saw motor. the chain must be up to speed before the bar moves. take a look at the video posted in the logging section. a timberpro with a logmax head. my krto saws as fast as that

A friend has a block buster and that is how they did it. Also tst told me the outlet of the saw motor had to go back to tank with no back pressure.

Snowstorm that is correct the 18 gpm pump does nothing but run the saw motor.

looking at your picture that saw cyl is huge. the one on my keto has a .5" rod maybe 6" long. like i said the saw chain needs to be up to speed before the bar moves

I sat down with a hydraulic engineer today and he feels Im just moving to much oil and the relief on my saw cylinder cannot handle the excess flow. After looking at the pressure gauge on my saw cylinder I noticed it was pegged. At some point I sent so much pressure to it that it pegged and broke it so he might be right. Im going to cut the flow down to 8 gpm and 1000 psi on the saw cylinder circuit and then set the relief to 50 psi and try that.

Quote from: jaybe_2 on February 21, 2012, 06:17:35 PM
I sat down with a hydraulic engineer today and he feels Im just moving to much oil and the relief on my saw cylinder cannot handle the excess flow. After looking at the pressure gauge on my saw cylinder I noticed it was pegged. At some point I sent so much pressure to it that it pegged and broke it so he might be right. Im going to cut the flow down to 8 gpm and 1000 psi on the saw cylinder circuit and then set the relief to 50 psi and try that.

i know a guy that has a timberwolf prosser if i get a chance tommorow ill go look that over see how they plumbed it. like i said that saw cyl is way big. maybe a flow cnotrol? like a sander control? i have several plow trucks . the sander control is running a motor they work pretty good should be able to find a used one off a rusted out sand truck

My saw cylinder is the same size as they used on my friends blockbuster. and I made shure that my cylinder mount was the same distance from the saw pivot point as the blockbuster so the mechanical advantage would be the same.

i did look at the timberwolf. the saw cyl is about a .5" rod maybe 1.5" cyl. with .25" hose. its not very big dosent need to be. still think a flow control would help. that way you could control the speed that the bar moves. it needs to come down farily slow

today I installed a pressure compensated flow regulator on the saw cylinder circuit and guess what?




The saw cuts fantastic!!!!!!!  My cylinder is now running at 55 psi just like I needed and it makes a nice clean cut without stalling the saw motor. It makes a cut in about 3 to 4 sec.   8) 8)

I will bring it home tomorrow and get some video in the next few days.

Quote from: jaybe_2 on February 25, 2012, 06:39:35 PM
today I installed a pressure compensated flow regulator on the saw cylinder circuit and guess what?




The saw cuts fantastic!!!!!!!  My cylinder is now running at 55 psi just like I needed and it makes a nice clean cut without stalling the saw motor. It makes a cut in about 3 to 4 sec.   8) 8)

I will bring it home tomorrow and get some video in the next few days.

well good glad to hear it

Jaybe,
You were sure having your fair share of challenges towards the end. Sure glad to hear that you got it dialed in. Looking forward to seeing the video!

Yes this is gettin exciting, hope we don't have to wait to long....



                             Dave

Its home ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Me and a buddy of mine lifted the largest log we could lift and ran it trough. It was an ash that was about 12" dia. and 8 or 9 feet long. It would make a cut and split in about 10 to 11 sec.  Im not shure how many cords per an hour the will be but I think I will get the cord to cord and a half an hour I was shooting for. It has been a long project, it should have been done a month ago but the problem with the saw took its toll. I am fine with the amount of time it took to build this considering I fabbed everything in house exceped for the pans for the conveyors. It has been a long four months and about 3000 dollars more than I thought it would take but it feels good to be done. I will try to get some vids this week but now that it home daylight might be the limmiting factor, it always dark by the time I get home. I also have to modify some forksti fit tractor to load the wood.

  Have you thought about putting a grapple on your loader bucket instead of forks to load logs on the processor.  Then you could use the grapple to pickup several pieces of firewood to move or load onto a truck or trailer.
  This has been grand fun watching the process of building it.  I'd love to hear some production numbers.

Too bad on the cost, and the headaches along the way.  I usually figure what it will cost then double it, and run the numbers against a factory made one.  If it is well under that I will make it, if not I will try to save up and buy it.  I usually learn a few things along the way.  I may have been able to attend Harvard by now ;D with what I have paid for my college of hard knocks education.

I think you made out well in the long run. Can't wait to see her in action.

Thank you for posting your build!

MHineman I think I will fab a log loader for the three point hitch on my tractor but that will be next fall.

Spalted Dog I realy dont have a problem with the extra cost it was mostly hoses and fittings plus the third section for my pump. I still have less than 9 grand in it and I know I could not even buy a used on for that. I did spend some time at the school of hard knocks on this one but that is just part of my world.

At the start of this project I did not know anything about hydraulics and had a feeling I would have some challenges along the way,and I did. Some of them were do to a company ( prc industial ) that gave me bad info and sold me the wrong parts and others were because I just didnt know. But its all good!!

Jaybe,
I hear ya'. I didn't know much about hydraulics either when I started on my processor...even though it works great...I know realize how much I still don't know about hydraulics! I am still very thankful for all of the help and encouragement from FF members along the way.


Any ETA on a video of your beast in operation?

I just finished adding up all of the invoices and it is a little under 8 thousand. Not shure how I came up with the 9 but I checked it twice and its under 8g. That is even better! The ff members have helped me along the way and I thank you all. The vid. might not happen till the weekend do to a crazy work week and now they are talking snow. If I can sneek out early I will get it sooner.

I'd say you did well.  I priced a splitter alone a few weeks ago and it was more than that. 

Jaybe,
Is you saw circuit operated by one lever? What controls the saw motor?
I looked at your drawing but I can't read some of it.

Quote from: cp881 on March 02, 2012, 06:42:28 AM
Jaybe,
Is you saw circuit operated by one lever? What controls the saw motor?
I looked at your drawing but I can't read some of it.

Yes it operates with one lever

My saw motor is controled by a pilot operated valve.  the pilot is from my saw cylinder so the saw motor only runs when my saw cylinder has pressure to it.

Well today after pulling some firewood, I put some logs on the deck and fired up the processor. I set the video recorder on the roof of the tractor and hit play. grabbed the lever to make a cut and and the pump that runs the saw explodes. I am not going to buy another housing for this pump. Im going to replace the complete pump, from a different manufacturer. Going to talk to TST in manchester tomorrow and see what they have to offer. The pump that broke is rated at 3000psi and my pressure relief is set at 2500psi. When I took it apart it did not have any marks from it being over pressued. When they machined the housing they put a 1" o-ring fitting in an 1 1/4 housing. that leaves less than 1/8" of material to hold 3000psi, seems week to me.

Sounds like one of your valves may be a closed center type. If not plumbed correctly it will blow the pump every time.

Quote from: bill m on March 07, 2012, 07:13:53 PM
Sounds like one of your valves may be a closed center type. If not plumbed correctly it will blow the pump every time.

could be. thats why the pressure guadge broke. a lot of valaves can be either open or closed center. all you do is remove or install a pipe plug thats inside the housing

All valves are open center. I ran 2 logs throught it the other night with no problems. The pump that broke only goes throught the pilot operated valve so the oil either goes back to tank or through the saw motor and it has a 2500psi relief in the line from the pump

I didn't take the time to reread the whole thread to know is the oil dumped directly into the tank or does it go through the filter first?    Does the filter bypass have a direct route back to tank?   What system return is the filter on, every circuit or just one, or is it on the suction side?    Are there any elbows on the return circuit back to tank and if so how many?   Also is the return line quite a  bit bigger than the pressure line?   Did you ever  put a gauge in the return line along with the pressure line, just because the relief is set at that doesn't mean thats the actual setting, I've had reliefs that we not functioning properly and the systems had a lot more pressure in them than they were supposed to, I try to have gauges left in the system throughout to monitor pressures at all times, in case something happens, one time I had debris in a relief and it couldn't open like it should, which over pressured a system till luckily a hose blew.    I also have pressures monitored at idle, so I know at start up what everything is supposed to read, even if its say 450 psi at idle where its at 2500 at full throttle and the same on the return side, I know at about what engine rpm I have return pressures and how much pressure its at, just to monitor things better, I plumb the gauges so they are all in line and in one place so I only look at one location for all the monitoring needs, usually by the seat and ignition switch.   

It could be a pump issue but before start up on your next pump check everything over again just to be sure something else didn't cause the problem your having or you'll end up blowing the next one up just like the last one, I'd suggest to monitor pressures, so if there is a problem you can shut it down before failure occurs.    Also make sure to change the filter again before startup, just to be safe, let the system run at idle several hours to filter the oil again before doing much hard work, the longer you can idle the system the better chance you have to filter out anything in the system, also monitor pressures as it runs.    Most failures occur at system start up or in the first few hours of use, because either the bugs are not worked out or there is debris floating in the system causing problems.   Until you've got at least 100 hours on the unit I'd be leery of more problems.

2 new pumps breaking blowing up just dosent sound right. i asked this question before never did answer. do the pumps have bearings on the shaft or bushings? a bearing pump running at 2500psi may be to much. a bushing pump can stand a higher psi some up to 3500psi or more

Quote from: snowstorm on March 08, 2012, 08:12:44 AM
2 new pumps breaking blowing up just dosent sound right. i asked this question before never did answer. do the pumps have bearings on the shaft or bushings? a bearing pump running at 2500psi may be to much. a bushing pump can stand a higher psi some up to 3500psi or more

About your pumps, all hydraulic pumps and motors have two bearings to support both
ends of the pump or motor shaft. If you are using gear pumps the gear pump should
have a case drain back to tank to relieve system pressure that is pushing against the
pumps shaft seal.

If any of your spool valves are not centered to the open position they will also create a huge
resistance to fluid flow at all times.

Quote from: leonz on March 08, 2012, 09:57:03 AM

Quote from: snowstorm on March 08, 2012, 08:12:44 AM
2 new pumps breaking blowing up just dosent sound right. i asked this question before never did answer. do the pumps have bearings on the shaft or bushings? a bearing pump running at 2500psi may be to much. a bushing pump can stand a higher psi some up to 3500psi or more

About your pumps, all hydraulic pumps and motors have two bearings to support both
ends of the pump or motor shaft. If you are using gear pumps the gear pump should
have a case drain back to tank to relieve system pressure that is pushing against the
pumps shaft seal.

If any of your spool valves are not centered to the open position they will also create a huge
resistance to fluid flow at all times.

some pumps use bearings the higher pressure gear pumps use bushings. i have had enought of them apart to know. the pumps with bearings have always set the pressure around 2100psi the pumps with bushings up to 3500psi

Quote from: leonz on March 08, 2012, 09:57:03 AM

Quote from: snowstorm on March 08, 2012, 08:12:44 AM
2 new pumps breaking blowing up just dosent sound right. i asked this question before never did answer. do the pumps have bearings on the shaft or bushings? a bearing pump running at 2500psi may be to much. a bushing pump can stand a higher psi some up to 3500psi or more

About your pumps, all hydraulic pumps and motors have two bearings to support both
ends of the pump or motor shaft. If you are using gear pumps the gear pump should
have a case drain back to tank to relieve system pressure that is pushing against the
pumps shaft seal.

If any of your spool valves are not centered to the open position they will also create a huge
resistance to fluid flow at all times.

My pump does not have a case drain unless it is internal some how.

Quote from: snowstorm on March 08, 2012, 08:12:44 AM
2 new pumps breaking blowing up just dosent sound right. i asked this question before never did answer. do the pumps have bearings on the shaft or bushings? a bearing pump running at 2500psi may be to much. a bushing pump can stand a higher psi some up to 3500psi or more

My pumps use roller bearings and are rated for 3000psi. The same pump with bushings instead of bearings are rated for 4500psi.

Tst hydraulics looked at my housing and said it showed no sighns of over pressure. They thought the port size was kind of large for the size of the housing. I said I wasnt going to but I bought a new housing from them ( made by permco ) It looks like a much better product than what I was getting from lynch hydraulic.  I also bought a cartrige style pressue relief with a gauge port to replace the ball and spring style I was using. they said it will react faster to get rid of any pressure spikes.

Id do have gauge on my filter and in the return lines The most back pressure I have is the line that returns through the cooler and that is 15psi when the oil is cold, it goes down when the oil warms up. my filters are rated at 60 gpm. Im putting 20 gpm through one and 18 gpm throught the other. My splitter returns directly to the tank not through a filter.  I have 3 return line to my tank all are 1 1/4" All my pressure hoses are 3/4". The pressure relief on this pump also returns directly back to tank but with a 3/4" hose. I will put it back together this sat and see what happens

 smiley_thumbsup

i want.. I WANT!

i determined from my "weekend" project,  many tree lines to drop,  around  70 cords on the ground right now.. we need 2 processors!

sc400
Better wait to see if the bugs can be ironed out of this one. Sounds like something major going on.

A little video of the firewood processor. I have gotten the saw stalling problem now taken care of ( not in the video though). Part of the problem in the video was I did not have the throttle pulled all the way out  and the pilot operated valve was not shifting completly. I will shoot another video of it soon, it works much better now.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGNllvd5Hc8

Looking good except for the sequence that the hold-down releases and returns before the chain-bar returns to up position. I wouldn't release the log before the bar was back out of the cut, if me.
Nice build.

Nice job, I'm confident you will get it working to perfection.

I just just cut a log with it and it is working very very good. The log was a 16" maple and the saw did not even slow down. I will be adding a sequence valve to make the clamp retract after the bar. I am very happy with how it is now performing and will gat a new video in the next few days.

Way to go Jaybe...Way to go!
You sure had your fair share of challenges there towards the end getting the hydros dialed in. If your happy with it that's what counts.

What's your next build?  ;D

Quote from: blackfoot griz on March 12, 2012, 08:13:44 PM
Way to go Jaybe...Way to go!
You sure had your fair share of challenges there towards the end getting the hydros dialed in. If your happy with it that's what counts.

What's your next build?  ;D

I think Im on my way to being very happy with it. I dont think I will have a problem putting 2 cords an hour through it.

The next build is going to be one i started a while back.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26170/DSC00478.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26170/DSC00478.jpg)

it going to get coverd with this.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26170/DSC00428.jpg)

to make something like this but with fenders so it will street legal.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26170/thing.jpg)

Or a three point hitch log loader you never know.

are you going to put in another bar to hold the log down on the bed but with a spring loaded roller , for the short logs so you dont have to grab them.   i shure like the machine, but i shure dont like seein ya stick ur arm in their at the same time the bar is comming down!  :o

Im not very close to the bar, Im cutting my wood at 36" that is why I have to hold the end of the short ones up. That also means Im over 2' away from the bar when Im holding the log, and the clamp grabs before the bar starts to move. Also when I istall a sequence valve on the clamp cylinder I will be able to use the clamp to hold the log up.

camera angle is kinda deceptive :)

36" firewood... wow.  must be for big boiler fuel!!

Excellent work !    You really do need a camera man.  Your right depth perception at that angle is decieving     keep up the good work.          lazerdan

Installed a sequence valve on the saw cylinder and it now retracts first and then the clamp retracts. You know what that means!!!!!!



ITS DONE 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

I will get some video soon. It is working so much better then in the last video. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

could you post an updated scetch of your saw curciut , I'm building a similar procesor and want to have a one lever controlled saw curciut but it doesn't look like its as simple as I thought it would be

Yes, please post some pics of saw circut as i too am building one as well.
Hey bud, Great build!!! way to hang in there regardless the issues. Now if i can only do the same with mine.
;) :D

This is a very rough scetch of my final hydraulics for the saw curcuit. It is important to use a sequence valve with a drain back to tank and make shure you have very low back pressure on you return or your pilot operated valve will want to keep your saw motor running. With this setup your saw has the flow to move fast but with low pressure so it will not stall the motor. This alows the saw cylinder to slow down in a big log and cut small ones faster.  I will try to put a big log and a small log on the processor tomorrow to show the difference in the new video. I forgot I do have a pressure relief on the saw and clamp retract line set at 1500psi and a flow control at the saw cylinder to keep them from retracting to fast.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26170/IMG.jpg)

Thanks alot for the help. Is the sequencer that is set at 50 psi only for the bar oiler? I was planning on running a separate pump with bar oil so I'm thinking I won't need that. The second scetch is a lot diferent from the original, look like it was the source of alot of frustration!

No the 50 psi sequence valve is for the saw cylinder. My oiler is after the sequence valve and only has the 10 psi that my return filters are running at and it is more than enough oil. I also have a flow control on the oiler.

No video yet!!! Its hard to go cut wood when its 83* out. I have to force myself to feed the boiler. Dont loose faith in me, I will get a video soon.

 smiley_chop   waiting for video.......

Fantastic job Jaybe. Enjoyed the video.

2 questions. Do you wear ear plugs and would taller paddles help on the chute chain?

Can't wait to see the work on the dune buggy. Where do you find time for such fine builds? Stay safe, Chuck

EDITED BY ADMIN AND WARNING SENT. 

Jaybe_2, did you get the final video shot of the whole operation in working order?   I know its an older post now, but was wondering how everything turned out for you, have you been using it and how everything works?

Well I probably should start buy saying sorry for loosing track of this post. The processor is working fantastic. All the bugs are worked out and I can do a cord ( cut to 32" ) in just over a half hour. That is using a friends grapple to load the deck. If I load it with the forks on my tractor it goes much slower. I will be doing more wood in a couple of weeks and I will get some video.

Any updates to the new video?