Hi guys. My name is Jim and I wanted to say high. I am researching information on timber framing as I am planning on timber framing a new wood shop over the course of winter and spring. The building is going to be 18' x 24' with an attic. Using poplar logs as that is what I have, dropped two huge ones in the last couple of weeks that is very straight and knot free for the most part. One tree had a 4' dia. trunk and the other one is slightly larger. I believe that there is enough there to at least frame the new building. I have been doing a lot of reading on here this morning and I am very impressed with the amount of knowledge to be found here.
Jim
Welcome to the Forestry Forum
Hello Jim,welcome to the forum. What are you using to saw the poplar with? And how did you get the logs out of the woods? Good size trees you there.
If you look at my avatar you will see the carriage saw mill that I built. I am using a Dolmar 9010 to do all of the milling. Let me see if I can figure out how to post pics on this forum so you can see what I am doing. As far as getting the logs out, they are right by the road and I am quarter sawing them so that they can be handled. I won't be milling any of them until I have a good plan put together on my frame, that way I won't cut timbers that I don't need.
jim
Go to the help button (under posting) to set up your own gallery (album) for your pics. There is upload help to get your pics on board, and then can imbed them in your post. Easy to do, and the FF way. Look forward to seeing them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/3841/1106111449.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/3841/1106111542.jpg)(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/3841/1106111144.jpg)(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/3841/1022111528.jpg)(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/3841/Gordies_trees_008.JPG)
There's a couple of pics of my mill and the last one is one of some of the logs that I had quarter sawn for making timbers. I have a whole lot more logs out of those trees to quarter saw yet, brought another hay wagon load home this afternoon.
For making timbers for timber framing you should not quarter saw the logs.
This would be for any timber 5x5 or larger.
You need to have the center of the tree in the center of the timber for strength.
Jim Rogers
Welcome to the forum.
Ditto what Jim R said. Also in the high tension trees I've been working with quarter sawing any significant length can leave you with some wicked curves. A nice look for knee braces but real bad for posts, beams, floor joists and edge butted pieces like paneling and flooring.
Jimdad07,
Looks like you did a pretty good job making your mill. Have you fabricated any other forestry/farm equipment?
Welcome to FF jimdad07! 8)
Nice mill, looks like it cuts well. Log handling is half the battle, front end loader has that covered nicely. 8)
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on November 26, 2011, 08:27:59 AM
For making timbers for timber framing you should not quarter saw the logs.
This would be for any timber 5x5 or larger.
You need to have the center of the tree in the center of the timber for strength.
Jim Rogers
The only problem I have is that the logs are so large that that is the only way I can handle them with the tractor. These trees are huge and unfortunately they are all that I have for my project. I would be happy to take any advice you might have on sawing them up down to a manageable size. I am pretty new to this part of carpentry, usually I prefer quarter sawn logs for woodworking. Building with them is new for me.
Quote from: Jasperfield on November 26, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
Jimdad07,
Looks like you did a pretty good job making your mill. Have you fabricated any other forestry/farm equipment?
Not a lot that is big like the mill, usually making something like my mill is a matter of affordability. It is also very rewarding to create lumber with something I made myself. I have been teaching myself to weld and this mill was my first project for that. I don't have the money to hire things out or buy a lot of the tools that I need so a lot gets made. Most of my funds go to feeding my two yahoos and paying the bills. I am sure you guys know how it goes.
Can anyone tell me the difference between "free of heart wood" and quarter sawn? Asking because another site mentioned that FOH is better than timbers with heart wood. I think I can get quite a few timbers that are the FOH but am I to understand that I should be staying away from the wood further away from the centers of the logs for main structural? I think I can swing it that way and then use the outer parts of the logs for pieces that are not as important for structural strength. Any thoughts form the guys who know, esp. from Jim Rogers?
The thing you need to avoid at all cost is having the "pith", the centre of the growth rings, anywhere near the edge of a beam or board. It will warp, twist, bow, or check... possibly all of those at once.
There are 2 ways of dealing with this.
Heart centred. This means you keep the pith centred in your beam, and this balances the stress that's naturally in the tree, or is caused by the tree drying. This will be most common with smaller logs, where you have now way of cutting the sizes you need without including the pith. So then you would saw off some outside boards for other uses, and leave the central beam.
OR Free Of Heart This means that the piece is cut well away from the pith, juvenile wood and the small growth rings near the centre. This should give you a piece with straight even grain, that should be stable and probably stronger then heart centred. Of course you need MUCH larger logs to be able to produce these, usually big softwood Dough Fir or similar.
Quartersawn relates to a sawn board, and how the growth rings are orientated. Looking at the end of the board, if the growth rings are near 90deg to the board, then it's Q-sawn. If the growth rings go across the wide dimension, then it's flat sawn. 45deg is Rift sawn. It doesn't really apply to beams as they are more square in dimensions. An 8x8 doesn't have a "flat" side to reference the grain from
Ian
Quote from: Ianab on November 27, 2011, 02:56:37 AM
The thing you need to avoid at all cost is having the "pith", the centre of the growth rings, anywhere near the edge of a beam or board. It will warp, twist, bow, or check... possibly all of those at once.
There are 2 ways of dealing with this.
Heart centred. This means you keep the pith centred in your beam, and this balances the stress that's naturally in the tree, or is caused by the tree drying. This will be most common with smaller logs, where you have now way of cutting the sizes you need without including the pith. So then you would saw off some outside boards for other uses, and leave the central beam.
OR Free Of Heart This means that the piece is cut well away from the pith, juvenile wood and the small growth rings near the centre. This should give you a piece with straight even grain, that should be stable and probably stronger then heart centred. Of course you need MUCH larger logs to be able to produce these, usually big softwood Dough Fir or similar.
Quartersawn relates to a sawn board, and how the growth rings are orientated. Looking at the end of the board, if the growth rings are near 90deg to the board, then it's Q-sawn. If the growth rings go across the wide dimension, then it's flat sawn. 45deg is Rift sawn. It doesn't really apply to beams as they are more square in dimensions. An 8x8 doesn't have a "flat" side to reference the grain from
Ian
What he said.
There are many post here on "boxed heart beams"
Do a search and read.
Jim Rogers
Thanks guys, that helps a lot. I almost panicked a little when I read about the quarter sawn. I think I can get what I need out of what I have, it will just take some thought before sawing them up. I think I will take picks of the end grains before I saw them up and post up to get a little feed back on the matter. I will also do some searching and reading. Thanks again guys, I'll keep you updated as I go.
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, jimdad07. Let the journey begin. :)
One way to deal with those big logs is make a ground (or bolt on) track for your mill head to ride on.
If you are a newbie to timberframing, and really need to build over the winter and spring, you need to get up to speed quick. In that case I'd recommend that you partner with a timberframer to help you design, cut your project, while teaching you at the same time. Another option would be to hold a workshop at your place with a good framer who has held workshops before. You will learn in the workshop, while working on your project, and having other students there to offset the cost of the event.
Quote from: Raphael on November 27, 2011, 01:15:08 PM
One way to deal with those big logs is make a ground (or bolt on) track for your mill head to ride on.
That's not a bad idea. After doing some more reading I can now see the difference between QSing and free of heartwood. I think I can get all of the heart wood out of the posts after inspecting my logs and still have plenty of material to work with. I dropped the second monster tree today and it was rotten through the main trunk, wasn't happy about it but I have another source for the same type of wood a few towns away. A friend of mine wants to drop a bunch of younger ones that are about 12" diameter, those will be easier to work with.
Quote from: Brad_bb on November 27, 2011, 03:51:24 PM
If you are a newbie to timberframing, and really need to build over the winter and spring, you need to get up to speed quick. In that case I'd recommend that you partner with a timberframer to help you design, cut your project, while teaching you at the same time. Another option would be to hold a workshop at your place with a good framer who has held workshops before. You will learn in the workshop, while working on your project, and having other students there to offset the cost of the event.
I am taking some advice that I got on a chainsaw forum I belong to and going to talk to some Amish guys that live near me. They are pretty friendly for the most part and they might give me some advice. I will be milling all through the winter and probably won't actually get to build until spring. I have a CAD program that I can draw anything I need to with and will be posting any drafts I make up to maybe get some advice on them as I go. I want this to be right as it can be to the best of my abilities.
I found the TFG website and downloaded the Historic American timber Joinery articles, they are amazing. Thanks to the gentleman who posted the information for finding this in a different thread, excellent reading, I can't put it down. This style of building is a very good way to connect with history. Very happy to be taking up this new project. Thanks for all the good newbie suggestions guys.
Jimdad,
I am assuming here when you say "poplar" you are refering to "Tulip Poplar" or "Yellow Poplar" and not "Popple" which is a regional term for Aspen. Aspen should not be used for framing. Yellow Poplar is a strong and light wood and frames well if you can get it to dry correctly and stay straight. That said it is very prone to wide, deep checks. If you are doing boxed heart framing this is not that much of a concern as the check never passes through the heart but with the way you are sawing, the check could split the timber clean in half. Twisting is also an issue. Try to verify that there is no spiral in the bark of the trees you select. I once cut some braces out of poplar that were not boxed heat and after they dried, you could split them in half by hand. Just a few wood fibers were holding them together.
Poplar is noted for making good siding. With logs that size you might want to cut the outside off for siding until you reach the size timber you desire wich would be boxed heart center and good for timber framing.
Quote from: Thehardway on November 30, 2011, 08:36:03 AM
Jimdad,
I am assuming here when you say "poplar" you are refering to "Tulip Poplar" or "Yellow Poplar" and not "Popple" which is a regional term for Aspen. Aspen should not be used for framing. Yellow Poplar is a strong and light wood and frames well if you can get it to dry correctly and stay straight. That said it is very prone to wide, deep checks. If you are doing boxed heart framing this is not that much of a concern as the check never passes through the heart but with the way you are sawing, the check could split the timber clean in half. Twisting is also an issue. Try to verify that there is no spiral in the bark of the trees you select. I once cut some braces out of poplar that were not boxed heat and after they dried, you could split them in half by hand. Just a few wood fibers were holding them together.
Poplar is noted for making good siding. With logs that size you might want to cut the outside off for siding until you reach the size timber you desire wich would be boxed heart center and good for timber framing.
It is actually cottonwood, which up here we call poplar, we don't get aspen that big up here, they normally die off well before the bark gets rough. The trunk grains are fairly strait in these trees, the crotches were quite high on these trees. A big problem with what I am doing is the desire to have a new shop built in this style vs. money and availability of materials. I am hoping to get a hold of some nice strait red oaks that there is an abundance of up here but with so many burning firewood these days, myself included, it is hard to come by before someone else comes in and cuts it up. I would like to get a few of these at least for some of the main framing. If I can't then I have to use what I have and what I can afford which isn't a lot right now with mouths to feed. I hope I don't sound like a goober here with what I am trying to do but as said, I have to work with what I have as best as I can.