As of yesterday, Feb 5th, we were issued a "cease operations" order from the Marion county zoning department. We have until March 1st to remove all evidence of a sawmilling operation. This action was prompted by a busy body neighbor (anonymous obviously) who called and complained. The A2 agriculture zoning and the county business license (yes, we have a license) did not hold water with the code enforcement gent (I use this term LOOSELY). He maintains that a sawmill has to be on M2 zoned property (heavy equipment). This flys in the face of common sense when the whole bloody mill doesn't weigh 1500lbs.
In all fairness, we have gotten logs from a tree trimmer who has a large truck. We do have a bobcat on the property off and on (belongs to a friend who helps out). We do have about 30 logs on the ground and it does look like a sawmill.
Florida has some odd laws and 90% of the time you can't fight them. We have a couple of calls in that might help us but is doubtful since zoning enforcement pretty much has the last word.
I'm not crying in my beer....I did that last night! :D I just thought I would post this and maybe save somebody else some serious headaches. Ya'll have a good one! I got a mill to move.
Well, RATS, Bigdog! >:( Busybodies rank right up there with vandals and thieves on my list. Do you know where you will set up, now? I hope it works out for you in the long run. Since the place is zoned for ag, maybe you should put in a big, stinky pig farm. ;D
I have a busybody neighbor, too. She has caused trouble for everybody in the area, except me. I knew of her before she moved in, so when they bought the place, I put the word out in the local grapevine. I let it be "known" that, if they messed with me I would make sure they lost their SSI Disability checks, their Medicaid, and their Food Stamps. I guess they believed it, or ain't takin' the chance. It's been 6 years and I ain't heard a peep out of'em. :)
Bigdog,
I'm currently going through all that stuff now. Rezoning. Luckily no one complained, I'm just trying to do things right and they(municipality) are giving me a bit of a run around but not too bad. In my area I believe a sawmill is allowed on an agricultural use. It is classed as a farm accessory. I'll check the by laws again and see what they say.
Right now though, I'm getting a site specific zoning to allow a sawmill on a Rural zoning. It is allowed normally but it has to be in accessory to a house on the lot. There is no house. Things are looking good with that.
I tried to get a "temporary" zoning to allow it set up on my house lot, 2.75 acres, but they would not go for it. This is where my problem lies because they expect me to have the money this spring to level the rural lot, put buildings up and install hydro and whatever else needs to be done to get all my stuff set up there. I'm trying to explain to them that I need my garage and workshop on the house, as well as the office in the basement, in order to run the business until I can do this on the rural lot.
I have another meeting Feb 25 to get them to reconsider so will see how that goes.
Don't get me started. :o Lets just say I spent thousands to get back something less than I was told I had approval for in the first place. Due to ex-neighbor/political enemy busy body. But in the end it was he who moved and me who operates.
Bigdog,
I just checked my by law book and Agricultural is not allowing a sawmill, only a rural zoning with a house.
It may be worthwhile for you to buy a copy of your bylaws, sometimes there are things in there that they don't look at deeply enough before they accuse you. You may find a way out of it.
Another thing is if you are doing this for your own personal use, such as making lumber for barns and fences on your property, it is usually allowed. Only problem is actually running a business on it. But you could just tell them everything is for you. Just dont get caught selling stuff off the property ;) ;D
Cheboygan county has much the same rules. A sawmill can be set up on an ag zoned piece of ground but it can only saw material cut on the farm for farm use or material brought in to be cut and used on the farm. No lumber can be sold. I can however under Michigan's Right to Farm Act run up 750 hogs with no special permits ::) I'm moving my mill this summer to this farm and am not concerned about it. I don't need any permits to build anything farm related and once it's setup it's done. I don't plan on sawing a lot anyway but if the urge should hit me I will. I already warned one neighbor that if he kept it up he'd have a hog barn in his side yard and haven't had any problems with him since. There's only one other one that might complain and there are several things that can be done to him including ruining his scenic view of my farm for starters. There go the property values ;)
Bigdog Where ya at in Marion Co? Grandma's got place just south of Forest Corners off SR40
It boggles the mind how they can dictate what we can and can't do on our own property. I can understand noise issues but they could just as easy work with us instead of against us.
I had tried the arguement that my mill was only a 1/3rd the horsepower of the other mills in the area but it doesn't matter to counsel if it's 1 hp or 250. Everything is based on the older circular mills as to how they determine the noise, dust and waste issues.
I had asked about setting classifications as to size and production but they didn't seem interested in working with me on that.
The problem, in both countries, is the lack of property rights. Be it our problem here with the Ministry of Environmnet and the fight we have had with them for the last year+ or building inspectors, zoning what have you. The "leadership" has forgotten where the power comes from within a democracy. Futhermore, they have also forgotten what has built both of these countries.
You buy, build, save and pay for your property... defend it. Stop the takings by various government agencies and special interest groups.
BTW... there are no wastes in the lumber manufacturing industry, everything has a use...
>:( DanG Big dog i hate to here about havein to move..i hate busy bodies with a passion. had the same problem in orlando..every jack leg that moved in had more say so about the use of my 5 acres than i did..so i moved to a skeeter infested river ..let me know if ya need help moving ..i'm only an hour an a half from ya..i could come down for a day..ya'll
keep your chin up there should be some place out towards the forest that you cld. hide your mill..good luck ..
I want to reply to this thread so bad. >:( I been countin to 10 since I read it the first time. >:( We had one of the biggest liars in Fl. get us kicked outta the first ramp site we had permission to use. >:( I get so hot, this is all I can type >:( >:(
I'm like Deadheader, I've been biding my time so I don't spout off too much. Grandpa always said that the problem with troublemakers is they've got too much time on their hands. If they went out and cut logs all day they'd be too tired at night to raise much of a fuss.
One of the big problems we're having around here is city people moving to the country and then bringing the city with them. They want to look at the cows, but not smell them. And heaven forbid they have to slow down their BMW or Lexus to pass your tractor. They manage to buy 1/2 acre somewhere and then think they can tell you what to do with your place. I had one fellow complain to me that living in the country is nice, but there isn't any fancy coffee shops, dry cleaners, theaters, and all sorts of other things he had in the city. I said then why don't you move back to the city and leave us alone.
The reason the newcomers have been pushing zoning is they are uncomfortable allowing people to mind their own business. In the city they were used to taking every major and even some minor decisions before a committee and letting the community decide an individual property owner's fate. I think that they can't handle the independence that comes from living in the country and want to recreate the environment they had left. O well, I'll get down from my soapbox.
I could talk about this for hours.
Our property was once zoned OR or Open Rural. Anything was allowed. It was a catch all for agriculture. The Florida's 20/10 plan was put in effect and the county changed the zoning to Agricultural. Cattle and trees are the only thing allowed now and you have to prove to the powers that be that you are a bonafied venture. .....and prove it .....and prove it.
Sawmills nor other generally assumed to be agricultural ventures are allowed anymore without zoning exceptions and that costs money and bowing down to the councilmen.
I'm through. Let me know if you need help Bigdogpc. What we can't move, we can cut up. :)
HEY, there's an idee !!!!! We could have a sawmill convention. Could you picture about 10 different mills pulling into the log yard. That griper wouldn't know WHAT to think ;)
Count us in 8) 8) 8) 8) :D :D :D
8) 8) My MD has wheels on it. I could make them appreciate how quiet your mill runs. ;D Get some more logs in there and we can change the "Swamp Shenanigan" into the "Marion County Cut-up." ;D We can roast the pig over the sawdust pile. :D
DanGed if guys don't all have a great deal of class. I sure wish I lived clsoser, I would bring 3 MD mills and help make som sawdust.
I had one of them code inforcement fellas show up here one time only for an alleged issues he never even got to looken at. He had heard ther could be a problem for him if he did, so he brough along 3 or 4 deputies just incase. His showing, still cost him his job , before I got done with him. 8) 8) 8)
What i would like to know is what happened to "Love thy Neighbor"? It seems to me that your neighbors these days are your worst enemy.We have had our share of run ins with ours, mostly over old junk farm equipment and cars with no license,not junk cars just out of date plates.Fortunatly we are agriculture zoned so we only had to move the cars, and we brought in more old farm machinery and big round bales of hay to "junk up" the scenery more.We just recently got our sawmill going regularly so i guess we will hear about that soon. DanG neighbors!!!!
Possible zoning and neighbor problems are why I moved my mill to a industrial site that has always been a secondary wood products business ( used to be a stake mill )
My 48 acres are zoned forest farm. At one time it was zoned 20 acre then before I bought it was changed to 40 now it is rezoned to not allow a house on less than 80 acres. (I got grandfathered in). We have been milling on site off and on for over 5 years but the neighbors knew we were building a house. I had room to build a shop for an expanded mill business but was concerned the neighbors would not be so appreciative with log truck coming in and out after our house was built. Oh yeah, we are on a private gravel road, 5 parcels with us being the last one.
The second and biggest reason was my wife said she didn't want to be able to see anything that had to do with the sawmill as she came and went to the new house. :D ;D
So we are moving out, the mill anyway 8) 8) 8)
Loren
None of my neighbors complain about my sawmill. I still have my state permit to have over a thousand hogs on the farm :o. I thing they would rather have a hobbie sawyer than a full tine hog farmer 8)
Bob the ex pig farmer
Wow, I bet your neighbors don't complain about ANYTHING... :D
:D :D Pigman, you orter milk that situation a bit. ;D You could whine, just a little, about the sawmill business being slow, and you might hafta go back in the pig business. You'd have neighbors for miles around beating the bushes for customers and hauling in free logs. ;D 8) 8) 8) :D :D :D
Thanks for the advise guys and the offers of help! I ain't laid down and died yet. Worst case I'll tow the mill to my place and park it while I look for some cheap property closer to me. I've already got a place to stash the mill up there as well as the few logs I've got. What really toasts my cookies is the fact that it is portable makes no difference. I've been doing a lot of dry reading online and cannot find a sawmill specifically designated as agricultural equipment. If I could find that then one of the exemptions allows agricultural related activities on agriculturally zoned land. Small loophole but it could be enough...
I suspect a chainsaw mill would have gotten the same response from this code guy. Apparently he has a hard..whatever for sawmills in general.
Anyway, I've still got a little time so I am going to use it to fight as best I can. Things were beginning to shape up nicely too. It was beginning to look like a real sawmill...maybe that was the problem. Have a good one!!!
Here is the new hampshire statuatory definition of farm and farming that I have been able to hang my hat on to survive in my location. Specifically it defines a farm as including the growing of trees and then states logging and lumbering operations as activities included as operations of the farm. When put together with some of the other allowed operations my lawyer is confident that I can continue to win any future battles. The problem gets worse as the town gets more and more restrictive and wants things like burger king style site plans for small operations like mine.
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/I/21/21-34-a.htm
Zoning laws protect and hurt people. It depends on which end you're on.
We had one guy who wanted to put in a high density hog farm next to a KOA campground. The township said no, after a huge public outcry. He went and put in a poulty house instead. The township "took" his hog business away, but he was very willing to take the KOA business away. Which one was for the greater good?
We also had a bunch of lawyers who decided they were going to do high density hog farming. Their "nutrient management" would involve all farmland within 5 miles of the farm. Who killed their plans? Other farmers who didn't like the idea.
They are now planning to ram high density farming through the legislature where local townships can't prevent it, anywhere. Not a pretty picture.
We also have a galvanizing plant placed right next to our elementary school. I sure hope there isn't some sort of industrial accident. It doesn't seem to be a good fit, but the township supervisors made out pretty well.
The biggest problem we have isn't so much the zoning, but the control of development. I hate seeing developments put in on fertile soil, be it industrial or residential. Our little town will triple in population thanks to some developers who put up shoddy houses and move on. The problems in years to come are going to be staggering.
We also have a local government who has used emminent domain to take a horse farm. Why? To put in a golf course. That one's still in court.
We now have laws that give us the right to farm and the right to practice forestry. The state is in the process of buying development rights to preserve farmland. They can't buy it fast enough. Developers have deeper pockets. Our state loses 120,000 acres per year to developers, and we have a declining population base.
Zoning laws are OK if applied with some common sense. That seems to be in short supply nowadays. There has to be a balance someplace.
If you get a variance, is that permanent or temporary?
I have never figured out why a small sawmill has to be lumped in with Weyerhauser type operations. Went up to Weilands sawmill and I'd rather have them for a neighbor than the 6,000 hogs I have now but I live in the country and the smell of manure is to be expected occasionally. Loss of farm land is an old scare tactic, they run it out every few years so they can controll what you can do with your property. Farmland in production goes up every year. Loss of land to ag use goes up every year too. I'm clearing 15 acres of scrub black locust that was pasture but left to go feral. The neighbor behind is pithed because I'm taking out the trees. Why, because they can see his place from the road now. It's my property and I'll do what I want with it. No nosey neighbor or self appointed council is going to change that.
I've sent an email to Bush...obviously to be read by some of his help but I figured it can't hurt.
The lack of distinction between small sawmills and big ones makes it tough. The factory claims 500-800bf per day for my mill. Technically, this is little more than a hobby mill for an avid wood worker. Seems kinda harsh to lump that in with a big mill. I don't own a big truck, I drag logs behind a Ford Bronco that has a boom welded to it. Everything is manual. On a long day I might get 1000bf. The noise level is comparable to a large lawn tractor unless I'm running a chainsaw.
As it stands right now I am going to go look at some property south of me that sounds pretty good. If I can wrangle a deal I'll be moving into Frostproof. Hopefully my luck will be better there.
OK, I've moaned and groaned enough. Thanks again to all of ya!!!
it would be nice if one could threaten them with taking your business to another township. One that hopefully has less stringent bylaws. But where can a small time sawmill come up with that kind of money, and they unfortunatly know that.
I've been running off and on, mostly off, for almost a year now on my house lot. The neighbours say they can barely hear the mill, just the chainsaw is the loud one but most of them run chainsaws too. I have everything set up the way I like and the township clerk says the lot isn't adequate for what I'm doing. He never even came out here to see the setup. Figured since I was putting out $650 for the application that he would at least do a full report on it but all I got was a 20 word statement saying it didn't fit with having residential lots beside me.
Now get this, the lot they approved first and second readings on, is directly across the road from all these residential lots. Right across the road from my house lot. :-/
We`ve had neibor problems also.My neibor owned the mill I now have.They all ganged up on him and shut him down. One of these neibors is also head of the zoning board.???
I bought the mill and got the variance and they are permanant.I can operate a sawmill anywhere on my property 24/7. No heavey trucks hauling to or from the mill on weekends.
Then they see a tractor trailer load of firewood being delevered on a saturday .It went to my house not the mill.You can bet they were all over it. ;D
I may have influnced this zoning board neobor about 15 years ago ;D.He met the recieving end of Mr Mauser (8mm), About 10 ft. over his head into a tree :o. He keeps his distance now 8)
Lenny
Lenny, Lenny, Lenny, you know that violence and intimidation is not the answer. Why you should just sit back and take it on the chin and rather than going out and busting your hump on a sawmill make a lovely trip to your local welfare office. Tell them your story and the'll be glad to set you up with a nice monthly checking account and if'n you got enough debt and kids maybe even a nice car. Now doesn't that sound better than getting all hot and flustered over zoning? 8) 8)
I think I see the sarcasim shopteacher...
Thing I've always wanted to ask the leftists was: Who is going to pay for the welfare when everyone is on welfare?
Death by regulation has me pretty steamed here too...
It is a very sad day when the government knows more than you about what to eat, drink, smoke, and take care of business on your "own" land. Guess maybe some think we don't "own" our land, they figure they are just letting us use it until they can think of a better plan. Sad day indeed. :-[
I live in a borough with a small population with a large land mass between borders. There are 2 commercial businesses I can think of, a bar and an auto body shop. The houses are spread out with large areas in between. Now, what do you think 99.9 % of the borough is zoned under? Residential, thats what. I've held a seat on council for 10 years now and that was in long before I was elected. I asked the council why the whole borough was zoned this way? Their reply was ; We have more control that way (stricter code). I've never had any trouble with sawing or welding or the hundred other things I do around here, but that's not to say I'm not in violation of the zoning and if things change(new council) who to say what might take place then. I moved out in the sticks so I could do pretty much as I please, but even here I'm in violation. Sure glad I struggled for 20 years to build and pay off my mortgage so I could own my own place. Ya, right!
When looking for a place if under the welcome sign it says incorpetated don't stop. They mean incararated. Ky constituion sais they oun all the land we have right of use long as we pay our tax . Our days are numbered Shop Teacher :(
This thread brings to mind the case that's on going in Charlevoix Co right now. Anyone from the northern part of Michigan has probably heard coverage on the local news casts. Lyle Barkley, I think that's the right name, was cited by the township for having undersized mobile homes on his property one of which is a mobile classroom. The township informed him that they were condemning them and were going to have them removed. Mr Barkley being a member of the local militia called on his fellow comrades for support. Armed confrontation was threatened but averted after a meeting with Barkley, Sheriff Lasater and Norm Olsen commander of the militia ;). The last I heard Barkley was going to get his day in court which had initially been denied to him and he had started a recall drive for the township board. This is the same township that now contains the Bay Harbor Development and has seen property values go through the roof. Many common folk have had to sell out because they simply can't afford to pay their property taxes in the area and that is what the local government seems to want. Drive the tax base up just as high as they can get it so they can have more funding for roads and schools etc. What are they going to do when there's nobody left but golfers in the summer and skiers in the winter ??? My friends Grandma owns a very nice but older home on twenty acres with a view of Little Traverse Bay not far from the Barkley Estate and her taxes were $10,000.00 annually a couple years ago :o :o :o and I bi#*h about $1,000.00 ::). I'm not advocating that we all join the militia and take up arms in fact I think for the most part this whole militia thing is more than a bit foolish but in this case it would seem to have worked. The judge has agreed to hear the case which he had initially refused to do. The township board members have been given something more to think about. The sheriff backed off enforcing the township ordinance until a court ruling. The heavy handedness came to a halt.
I thought NH was the live free or die state. If anyone complained about my mill I would tell them to move back to MA!
When my brother-in-law moved to NH, the local cop came around to "see him" as a new neighbor. His "friendly" advice was if anyone starts to break into your house, shoot them, drag them inside and we will do the rest. Kind of a double edged message ...
But, you can leave your wallet in your unlocked car with the keys inside and both are still there in the morning.
In many ways southern NH has become massified, except we don't have income or sales tax. What we do have is outrageous property tax and a host of other things like heavy registration fees and inheritance taxes.
In my town there has been this long going idea to keep it rural. Ha ha that has meant very little business or industrial tax baseand road improvements that wait far to long so are much less than needed when completed. Add to that a volunteer government that is under informed but increasingly restrictive. What we have ended up with is residential, and lots of it. Spiraling tax rates along with increasing traffic and pressing need for more schools, more fire trucks, new police station and highway garage and more restrictive zoning along with more agressive enforcement.
People move in for the so called rural feel but no one else is supposed to. Other area towns are beginning to buy development rights to slow the sprawl but we haven't done much of that yet.
You know we're supposed to be living in the land of the free and home of the brave. Well we may be brave, but we certainly are not free. What has happened when we weren't looking? Makes me want to go out and put another lock on the entrance gate to the farm. >:(
We don't have any urban sprawl around here, down by some of the bigger towns they complain about loss of farmland but most of the developments go in places you shouldn't be farming anyways. By us the rural farmhouses are getting fewer and fewer. Farms are getting bigger. The number of adbandoned houses in the country is amazing. When I was a kid a 80 acre farm was common, now if you farm less than 500 your a hobby farmer (me). If I remember right you only have the right to use the land the US goverment owns it and only gives you the right to use it, there's one constitutional admendment I'd support. Goverments hate to have groups oppose them, you get labeled as militias or religious zealots. Ruby Ridge and Waco are examples of what happens when you oppose them. Best to keep a low profile and keep to yourself, Patty's worried if I'm ever on my own I'll turn into a hermit.
Patty, if Norm gets real grouchy and moves off by himself I have a large shell he could use.
They did a study in our area about the impact of development on the local tax base. For every $1 in tax increase there was a $1.22 expense increase.
Urban sprawl is a real problem. After a long time of increasing forestland, due to farmland abadonment, it is now decreasing. They're building homes in the forests and fragmenting the forest.
Meanwhile, they shell out the cities. People don't even go there to shop anymore. They go to the Sprawlmart. Industry has left and we end up selling each other hamburgers.
There is a reason so much is classified as residential. Under that classification, you can tax the land at a higher rate. It doesn't make any difference what the current use is, its the potential that is taxed. Then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because some beauracrat said so.
If you want change, then you have to change who's running the ship. But, we continue to keep the same guys at the helm. Incumbancy rates are staggering.
My own FREE CHECKING account 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Five kids???CAR 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) Do horses,dogs,cats count???TRUCK 8)
Where do you sign up?? :P And all this time I could have been fishing insead of working.
Yes "LIVE FREE OR DIE" is the state motto, There has been talk of changing it. >:(
Zoning in Weare is simmilar to where woodmills lives.Very little industry is let in town. But there is no problem for a developer to put in 200 house developments??
New safty complex(ploice and fire) More police, Full time fire dept. New cshool 5 years ago,Now too small.more teachers.More roads being turned over to the town to maintain,Bigger hiway dept. ect.
Then we get these people that try to vote in all the thangs they came here to get away from.
As Woodmills said "MASSIFYED"
Lenny, just give your state representatives a call. They'll be more than happy to give you a hand and get you signed up for all those freebies. That's why their there right? Oh, you'll have too get in line behind their mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, siblings, cousins, friends, close acquaintances, friends friends... well I guess your already in line and in your place. LAST! >:( >:(
??? ???Shopteacher got my to thinking I was gonna get somethin for nothin >:(
I gotta put the ice fishing gear back into the basement and go to work :(
Sorry about that Lenny, but you know what they say: You don't get something for nothing, that is unless your a politician. ;D
When Woodmils said that, the first thing I though of was, how Oregon is becoming Californicated. The new folks move here, to get away from where they came and create that which they left. It all set in my craw. >:(
Further developements...according to the county tax office (they apologized for advising us wrong) when we got the business license, we shot ourselves in the foot. If we did not have a business license, we could saw our own lumber, have a sawmill and as long as we did not sell anything from it, zoning couldn't say anything. Yah, OK, I am going to saw lumber just for myself...unfortunately since the fat's in the fire we are officially shut down.
The mill has been moved to another AG property as well as all the logs. The pole barn construction has been halted pending all this blowing over. The air dried lumber is staying put and if anything is said it is being used for fence boards...
We are now looking for property closer to Plant City. My Dad is going to sell his place and move closer to me. Once all that moving stuff is done, we will set up the mill again and do things a wee bit different.
Thanks to bad neighbors we got shot down. Thanks to good neighbors we had a place to stash everything. Thanks to the folks at FF we ain't giving up. Not to mention I need my fix of sawdust on a regular basis! :D
If you can´t win an discussion, CRY! I did that a lot of Years ago driving my car in Stockholm. It wasn´t just free, it was profitable!
A very Young police started to follow me very close, just 1-10´ behind. I knew I hadn´t done anythig wrong and understood what he was up to. After some miles (!) he stoped me and listed 7-8 misdemeanours. I understood this was going to be expensive if I didn´t take a initiative. Talking to his boss could be a risk, even he could be booring. So we went to the back of my car and looked because my son sat in the car. I started to sob and tell him about how much my old car had cost me. Then saying I coldn´t find the way out of Stocholm, all with my most genuine back country dialect (Småländska) and made a loud cry. :D :D :D
He immediately became an other person and forgot all about any disdemeanours. Another aspect of the matter he forgot to apologize too. ;D
The municipality build a new road and the entrance to my property didn´t any longer act for a truck with trailer. I went into the municipality office. The man who handle the roads knows that if anyone visit him he also wants anything that cost money. I know that if I say hello he´ll say NO!
So I put on my most sorrowful expression and started to walk up and down outside his door until he saw me, invited me to have a seat and asked if he could help me. After some talk about "all and nothing" he asked about my problem. I told him about it and that I had no money to build a new entrance. I also get him some example of angry truckdrivers vocabulary. (In reality the truckdrivers used to talk about crazy municipal-people building roads) ;D
When he finally had realized there was a problem I told him how to solve it cheap. That it even should make safer transportations of oil and gas to the glassfactory he jumped up............ -We´ll do it! :o
When I can expect a hard deal I use to go some up in the hierarchy. People on to low level have just courage to say NO!
Once i had to talk to the trade union. They asked if they could send a "Mr. something". I said: I am the archbishop here, You have to send your so we can communicate at the same level.
Their highest man came but that´s another stoty. :)
Swede.
Well you guys heard it from Swede. Start sobing and crying to Jeff and maybe he'll hand out more goodies. (https://forestryforum.com/smile/bigcry.gif)Bo Hoo, Sob, Sob, Bo Hoo.(https://forestryforum.com/smile/bigcry.gif)
(Hey Butch, check him out and see if it's working yet.)
DanG it, Now, THAT'S "Marketing", Swede. :D :D :D :D :D
Swede you crack me up! (you make me laugh) :D
Here I thought I had the market cornered on bursting into tears when I think it may help me get out of a bad situation! I learned it from my sister, but women in general usually learn it at a very young age. It is part of our upbringing. ;)
Patty;
I can guarantee you that the power is x500 when a man is cryng loud on the street, behind his car! :D
Swede. *will never forget it*
;D Yep, you got me there Swede!! ;D