I need some direction/experienced knowledge.
I have always wanted to have my own business and have came down to molding. I do not want the responsibility of kiln drying my own lumber as I think there is too much liability (moisture content, beetles,) and start up cost. I know there is but at the present I can't think of any liability issues with finishing a product. What are your all's thoughts.
At this point I have to start slow as I can't quit my full time job. I am thinking that a woodmaster 718 molder with 3 sided attachment may be what I need to have a quality machine and minimize investment. Then if things work out maybe expand to a second machine.
Any help, thoughts, advice is welcome bad or good. I don't want to make a mistake here.
Sounds like you have just digested the package they sent you and reality is catching up. I wouldn't pull the trigger on the deal without having some sales lined up. I also would make some serious considerations on other brand names of equipment. I dont care for the way tools are clamped in instead of bolted. To me that business sounds best if it was "adding" value to wood that I was producing. Not sure if I would even try it as a stand alone prospect.
Cory
Welcome to the forum.
Your plan is interesting, and am curious where/how you are thinking to market your moulding?
Where would you be thinking of purchasing dry wood of a moulding grade (long clears).
Don't want to discourage you, but need some more info to give any help (hopefully the help is not all negative to your plan). But do agree with what Buck says.
The woodmaster package looks real good on paper. I have a 718, have a close friend with 2 of them. They are real pickey to get set up right, but do work as advertised. The hidden gotcha is feed stock. It has to be dimensioned very accurately and needs to be consistent. If you try to straight line rip on the woodmaster, rig up a sled...
I agree with Pineywoods. I also have the 718 woodmaster & started making molding to sell. There are alot of steps to come up with a finished product. I bought a PH260 4 sided molder a couple years ago & it's a lot faster. I now use the woodmaster to skip plane to desired thickness, then change to gang rip saws to cut blanks for the PH260 molder. Production is alot faster. If your thinking about this seriously buy the woodmaster & make molding to sell. If it pays for itself in a short time then take the next step into a more productive machine.
Good Luck,
jim
The only reason I thought of molding as a standalone prospect is
1.) Liability of kiln drying
2.) Cost of start up with a mill and kiln
3.) Already working a full time job and have a four month old girl, so time is a consideration.
My plan was to talk to some home town lumber companies to see if they would be interested in buying local products, and local ads.
I can get blanks from a local saw mill. Last price was 0.50 per board foot for wherever species I wanted, but that is green. I have yet to look for a drying service.
Pineywoods and jdtuttle I sure don't want a picky machine. I don't have time to fight with a machine to get it set up for different stages of processing.
I want to do my research and take overhead into consideration before doing anything.
Thank you all so far for your thoughts. Like I said all thoughts are welcome positive or negative.
I can relate to your situation. We have a mill, and have to contract out kiln drying and planing/moulding. It can work out ok, but much of the time by the time you pay everyone else, there isn't much left. I would love to have a larger planer/moulder like you are talking about, but at this point do not have the market. I have found that there is a definite difference between being able to make a product and being able to sell that product profitably. Competition for finished paneling and other products is quite fierce around here so the margins are extremely thin. I would keep doing research to ensure that the markets are there and that you would be able to pay for the equipment and make money. I have two young kids too, and have determined that if I am going to work, I need to make money (even if I just enjoy the work). If I can make dencent $$ on a project, great. If I cannot make decent money, I would rather take my kids fishin! Good luck.
Cory, I didn't mean to rain on your parade. I scheme all the time and those are my thoughts as i worked through the same idea you had. You idea could work. Don't discount what a solar kiln could do for you. We have some members that have some really cool ideas along those lines. You could easily have a couple of solar kilns going and produce a nice little side income. I would lean on doing as much of the whole product myself instead of contracting out some of the steps. Some of the replies have said the same thing. Keep us posted and keep dreaming and thinking. Buck
i've been in the wood buisness for 15 yrs now full time. have alot of very nice big equipment making flooring to interior t&g paneling ect. but, i dont make any trim. why you are thinking? not that i'm not setup to produce it in larger qautities, its just some thing that doesnt present enough money to chase after.
which profiles are you going to have? each profile costs money for knives. how many diffenet species are you going to carry? not many trim packages use only 8' trim so, you'll need to carry long lenghts of every speicy you sell. i think the fall off or waste wood will eat your bottom line faster than termites eating on a wood foudation.
before the "crash" i had a coustomer that made trim with a woodmaster planer or moulder any way, i sold him blanks, the exact size and thickness he needed so all he did was the moulding not ripping or presizing. something to look at, you know you cost before eeven buying wood.
Gary Streigler, one of our better local builders puts a lot of Woodmaster moulding in his homes. When he's not busy building seven figure plus houses he makes videos for Woodmaster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fapKk_Bhh7Y
I can vouch that he walks the talk. He usually has a seminar at the annual home show alone with the winning home on the Parade of Homes. Custom moulding, not available at the local lumber yard makes his homes. I've talked with him several times about running moulding.
My feelings are that you will loose money trying to sell stock moulding by making it on a small machine. Yes, I tried a couple of times and lost money. Red oaks nailed the reason. i think the fall off or waste wood will eat your bottom line faster than termites eating on a wood foudation. There are some niche markets for high end and reproduction. Depends a lot on your location. I had some good jobs up north doing a few reproduction runs. Not much reproduction work here...most of our grand old mansions were burnt, during the war of northern aggression. :(
Your timing may also be bad. I ordered some custom moulding knives this morning from a guy that has been making knives forever for guys like us. He said his business was way off.
Buck I thank you for your insite. Sometimes when a person has a idea all they see is the good. I want to know what won't work, or is a bad idea, or what might not be profitable. The good, bad, and the ugly ;)
Thank everyone for there thoughts so far. Anymore are welcome.
Will keep everyone posted
I can tell you I quit doing moldings mostly due to inventory issues and having on hand the correct lengths, type and species of moldings a client may be looking for. I now do only cedar and pine v match paneling , 1/4 log siding and bead board as well as hardwood and softwood flooring. This is all done on a Logosol PH 260 moulder. I also buy or harvest my own logs, saw them to lumber with a Woodmizer bandsaw and kiln dry with a Nyle DH kiln. I stay as busy as I need and dont need to advertise. Produce a quality product and you would do well.
The biggest liability will be in keeping a select inventory. Thats difficult since each clients needs will be different not only in the style of trim desired but quanities and lengths. Good luck in your research and hopefully this helps.
I make mouldings for short runs of say less then 1000lf. I wouldnt want to go more because I use the woodmaster 718 as my dedicated moulder and it is too slow for longer runs. I only make the mouldings when I get an order and I require a 50% deposit before any work begins. This way I don't have to keep an inventory, I use (for most mouldings) the narrow boards from my lumber inventory, and I charge for 1-2" over the width of the moulding. for instance is some one wants 3 1/2" tall base board then I figure the lumber at about 5" wide then the waste or off fall from the rip saw is not money out of my pocket.
Doing this, I have made money on almost every moulding job we have gotten.
I've got a woodmizer, nyle 200 kiln baker edger, RBI 820 (Rbi's version of the woodmaster) and a Logosol 261 (yes 261)
I wouldn't bet on a molding buisness unless you can verify a market. Secondly if you are looking at running moldings through a woodmaster I'd recommend looking at a dedicated overarm molder like a Grizzly's G069 (shop fox 7"molder with stand at $1500)
You will need to plane and rip all stock to some finite dimensions prior to finishing on the molder. Consider also final sanding
Eric
How do you like the single phase 260?
The 261 has 3 hp motors and is generally underpowered especially for the top and bottom planer heads.
Not to steal the thread but do you have occasional jam problems? My 261 need pretty clean product clean cut ends or it tends to jam.
Cory,
To elaborate a bit more on the logic for a seperate overarm molder... Having a dedicated machine allows for faster shop production with fewer machine setup changes which are often very time consuming and may take additional material to for test runs and fitting.
For the price of a Woodmaster planer with the molding kit you can get a stand alone planer and a stand alone molder. Running a table saw with a power feeder ($400 option) you can rip, plane then finish all at one time by yourself or with a single helper reducing your feed time by a factor of 3 (not including setup times)
Budget dust collection in your plan, as when you start running lumber by the hundreds of bf, you will be covered up rapidly.
Eric
Thanks everyone for the continued support and suggestions
FeltzE I like the direction that you are going with three machines, because I would be on my own to run material. Any suggestions on the best value for a table saw with a feeder?
Also another question about wood shop size. I have a 24x40 garage (storage building ::)). If I build a 16x24 addition on the back would that give me enough room to set up the machines and not cut off my arms when moving around? Or should I look into building another structure?
If you can't figure it out I'm a Grizzly fan dollar for dollar on the small and medium shop stuff
Table Saw
Grizzly G4173 baby power feeder, $400
Grizzly G1023RLWX 10" 5 hp 22v table saw $1350 (I've got an earlier model of this again, awsome for the shop)
Moulder options
Grizzly 13" G1037z 1 1/2 hp planer moulder, $995 ( A local cabinet shop has one and is very pleased with it's performance
Shop Fox G0680 2 hp 7" Planer/moulder $1450
Planer Options
Of course you could run twin G1037z(s) one for moulding one for planning same parts etc low cost.
Grizzly 15" Planer 3hp G0453 $1050 (I have the 5 hp 20" and can speak for that machine ... Awsome at $1575 GO454
Run everything 220v single phase for quiet efficient power, much better than running 110 on the same machines when the 110v option is available.
So,
Table saw with feed $1750
Pair of 13" Planer/moulders $995 each or $1990 together
Woodmaster combination planer molder $2450-2850
Good luck, drop me a pm if you want to chat
The successful moulding businesses I see sell directly to the contractors, not lumberyards. You can basically retail it instead of wholesaling. And I'd look at wider mouldings,instead of the stock 2 1/4" casing. Maybe 3" wide, as the customers love wide moulding. Course, money really talks these days.
i have noticed on the lines of molding, some have an extensive line of different heads you can get.
if you have machine shop friends,, they could make you the custom knives ;D
To run a successfull moulding business you will really have to tack down your market and recurring customers. I have run a sawmill business part time for years, and some years less then others (due to military deployment) and it has hurt my business. I'm now retired and slowly word is getting back out and business flow is increasing. I'm adding shavings for bedding to balance out the ebb and flow of not having a steady flow of sawmill customers. We run feast and famine at the saw. No calls for a week or two then (and it only takes one) several that have us scrambling to catch up.
Shellby: I wouldn't have a machine shop make my moulding knives or heads. I'd go to one of the distributers, guaranteeing balanced knives, corregated heads, and templates. Alternatively with a little patience and a 1/4" grinding wheel you can grind your own patterns (carefull with the balance issues) yourself successfully.
Eric
feltzE.. one of my machinist buddys usto teach at the u of m, and has told me some stuff that friends of his have done... particle ray cones and such. tool steel is tool steel p50 ect ect. balancing can be done if you know the right people :) plasma coatings.. no problem, anodizing..covered, corregated heads... no problem. one buddys shop, 2 bridgeports, one engine lathe, 2 hardinge chuckers . all tools should be calculated to "maximum load" at 4 x nominal speed, most tools break when that is grossly exceded ! i have a small optical comparator here at home. Im building an injection moulding die at the college im going to, on a tool room cnc.
Sounds like you have it figured out. Have you considered making a pellet mill? Now there is a market for that stuff up North!!
Oh, I've been lookin at them lately.
Eric
yea...i have thought bout it.....waaaaaaayyyyy tooo many irons in the fire now
Quote from: Cory on January 09, 2012, 08:55:56 AM
I need some direction/experienced knowledge.
I have always wanted to have my own business and have came down to molding. I do not want the responsibility of kiln drying my own lumber as I think there is too much liability (moisture content, beetles,) and start up cost. I know there is but at the present I can't think of any liability issues with finishing a product. What are your all's thoughts.
At this point I have to start slow as I can't quit my full time job. I am thinking that a woodmaster 718 molder with 3 sided attachment may be what I need to have a quality machine and minimize investment. Then if things work out maybe expand to a second machine.
Any help, thoughts, advice is welcome bad or good. I don't want to make a mistake here.
A board member I used to chat with did what you are asking about quite sucessfully years ago. Mur (his moniker) was/is from Burnslake B.C. He bought wood from millers such as myself as there were many mills willing to sell their falldown lumber to him cheap...and to his specs. He eventually got a kiln as well, heated with the moulder shavings he produced.....
http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=1166
+1 on what Larry said about Gary Striegler. I took a class with him at the Marc Adams school in May. I believe he has an entire week devoted to moldings in September.
Like Larry says "he walks the walk". A great woodworker and teacher. Well worth your time to take a week long class with him.
The OP was over 6 years ago. Do we know what he did and how it worked out?
Duh! I didn't look at the dates!
Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on August 05, 2018, 10:43:39 PM
The OP was over 6 years ago. Do we know what he did and how it worked out?
Good eye Gene.. Im as sharp as a marble...missed the date completely....looks like Im the one who dug that old thread outa the basement....I have no idea how I did that.....am I here? :D
Percy - what did you end up getting for a moulder?
Quote from: Southside logger on August 06, 2018, 11:03:44 PM
Percy - what did you end up getting for a moulder?
I went with the Woodmizer/logosol 360. It is in salmon arm but I can't have it till it gets rewired to Canadian specs or csa standards. If I wasn't so busy at the mill, id be all excited and such. 😂😂😂