I have a pine thats 40+ inches and three to four hundred years old. This tree is crooked, has bad form,and probably sucks up more water than ten trees around it. Even though it has no purpose or value, I let it live, if for no other reason than how old it is. Does anyone else spare a tree because they feel it (deserves) to live, or am I on my way to becomeing a treehugger?
I guess it really depends on the situation. If it were on my tree farm, and it was taking up room so that I could not grow merchantable timber, I would cut it down and plant 20 in it's place, unless of course it was home to a lot of critters, then I might leave it be. I guess it is up to you, who is it's steward after all.
thats a tough question i have some big worthless trees on my place that need to go but for some reason I dont cut em . I did cut a big elm the other day to allow a red oak and two pin oaks some room to come up. Depends on my mood when the saw is going .
I can cut down a hundred trees to thin and improve my forest, and almost everything I do is to make it better, but for some reason I let my feelings take over on this one.
If your feelings are taking over, I say let this one slide. Heck, I won't touch one on my dads place with a saw anymore (and that's just trimming) ;).
We let our big beech trees stand. They didn't have much value other than mast and homes for critters. Beech scale moved in a few years ago and we cut them before they died :( :(
I m the same way, THe company had a logger come in a clear the buffer zone with us having a say over what was to be cut. THey wanted some pine near our lake that set the landfill off and the DEQ really like the park like setting. The logger actually had another 20 acres to cut of prime timber but the owner being a smart elec cut a huge white that was marked to be saved as he said it looked like a trash tree. Dad sent him on is way after that.
I have a logger friend that has cut the same stand behind the house and actually left a huge walnut and and an oak tree as he said they had probably seen the Civil War and alot of history. I ride through there on a 4 wheeler and the new stand is about 12 years old and theres a huge tunnel like area under these 2 trees. I noticed the last time I was through there some one set up a stone bench and picnic table.
Sometimes its a DanG shame to cut certain trees down. I remember walking through an area that was devastated by the gypsy moth. Mortality rate was around 80-90%. That was on the mountain side. It was to be clearcut. But, at the bottom of the ridge was a stand of hemlock that straddled a stream. Very little oak, so there was little damage. It was a very picturesque area, and the hemlock did a good job of shading the stream. There was not cutting to be done there. Sometimes timber value is secondary to aesthetics.
I will also walk past really big trees. Some have been former state champions for size, so I think they've earned the right to see another rotation. Normally, these aren't standing in the middle of a stand. The really large trees are hard to market. The old markets for big logs are pretty well gone. Fewer mills are cutting big logs. I keep on seeing the foresters dipping in to what used to be considered good growing stock. Mills have adapted to the smaller sizes.
Ron; "Sometimes timber value is secondary to aesthetics." Yep.
TERRY, not to quibble. A big tree is a big tree. But size is dependent more on growing space and the spot where it's growing; soil, moisture, etc., not so much on age. How do you know it's 300-400 years old? Do you know what kind of pine it is?
There is nothing wrong with leaving trees for their nonmonitary values such as for wildlife, aesthetics, historical, sentimental values, added character to the landscape such as size, shape, color, form, texture, etc.
We leave such trees all the time in our land management. Trees with a carved heart and initals in the bark are also popular "leave trees". ;) These other recognized values can make a tree priceless.
Phorester, its just a guess. My 12 inch borrer gets about 10 inches at most after the bark, and that core was well over 200 rings and I should of been about half way. It is ponderosa pine, flat top and 85 foot tall, and probably grew faster the first 20 inches than the last 20. I cut a slice off a 22 inch pine on a rocky meadow above me that came down, and I could take it back to around columbus. I'm glad to here comments like (seen the Civil War and alot of history) and (earned the right to see another rotation) I thought I might be the only one who feels that way. The only reason this tree has surved every harvest is because of its bad form. Most of the bigger trees I have, have some kind of defect from years of high gradeing.
Thanks Ron Scott, couldn't agree more.
Not the wrong thing to do at all.
One thing I haven't heard anyone say is genetics. Although its a "nasty" tree, it might be that way because of abiotic factors (broken tops, lightning, wind) old trees are time capsules of genetics that might be absent in the trees around it. If you believe in global warming (man made or otherwise) the more genetic diversity the better. That trees offspring might have something it in that helps the future forest to cope. Or it could be the opposite! You never know.
Some folks think that the white pine extracted for English ships mast in the east did serious damage to the genetic pool. Back then they weren't cutting many trees, but they were taking the tallest straightest trees around. Depending on the tree they could be 400 years old, and 200 feet tall. You can still find trees that are 400 years old, but they're a far cry from 200 feet tall. Maybe that's saying something, maybe not.
KBforester, genetics is a concern. Mostly doug fir around this tree so not much to compare it to. I don't know if trees stop produceing viable seeds after a certain age or not. Maybe its too young to reproduce. Most of my tallest and straightest trees are on my fence row, because both sides were afraid to cut them.
I have two trees in my yard that I will never cut down. One is 10 yr. old Cypress the other is a 14 yr old saw tooth oak. Both where planted at the birth of my sons. Every year since birth I take a picture of them standing in the same position by the tree. It is fun to watch them grow.
A great reason to leave a tree stand. They are "priceless".
I have a cedar that is well 5' diameter at base that only goes up say 14 feet then several limbs out I've always said see the damage and hard time age has done her who am I to remove her from this life! Yes I have another in the back just not as majestic!
We had our land logged 4 or 5 yrs ago which was a couple of years after my father had passed away and my wife and I had inherited the house and land. The logger was to take any white pine over 14-15" in dia. But there was one big one (it's 23" today) I told him not to touch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17161/Copy_of_DSCN1245.JPG)
That's my dog, Jarvis, in the foreground and as you can see the tree has a pretty good 'kink' in it about 30-40' up (I'd guess). I shot my first deer out of that tree opening day of the '93 season. My father had helped me make the stand and we had put it up two days before the season started. After I found the deer and had gutted it (it looked like a Dr. Frankenstein experiment) I went back to the house and told Dad I got one. His jaw dropped. He had hunted on and off over the years, especially when he was younger, but had never taken it too seriously and had never taken a deer. So with neither of us really knowing what to do we hauled the deer back to the house with the deer tied to a pole like you see in pictures/drawings of how 'Indians used to do it'. Well this was a decent size deer (8pt 172lbs field dressed) and we didn't think/know to tie the head up some how. Needless to say it was not an easy 'retrieve'. (If you think about it those drawings normally showed a small doe on the pole... ::) )
We went back the next day (Sunday) to take the stand down and I was very careful to get ALL the nails out assuming that some day it would get made into lumber.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17161/First_DeerFF.jpg)
The point of this story is that I will never cut down that tree as long as I own this land. Every time I walk by it it's a good memory of my Dad. +1 to the Treehugger list :)
P.S. I know it's a 23" tree now and I'm not sure what it was in '93 but I swear it's twice as big, is that possible?
Great story John. Be sure to pass that story down, or make new memories with your kids, or that white pine will become just another crooked tree.
I've got a handful of old growth red cedars along my property line that were left when the place was logged 50 years back. The are in the 6 - 8' diameter range.
When I went through the property cutting shake blocks , I could't bear to fall them and sell them, even though I certainly could have used the cash. I'm planning on building a new cabin on the place now that my young family is growing. When the time comes I will fall some of them , but keep all the wood on for myself. Its a different way of preserving the tree that way.
Quote from: JohnM on February 27, 2012, 11:10:36 PMP.S. I know it's a 23" tree now and I'm not sure what it was in '93 but I swear it's twice as big, is that possible?
Good story JohnM. There are many values that a tree can have, as you and others have made apparent in this thread, the monetary value of the tree can be easy to calculate but often pales in comparison to other less tangible values.
To answer your question I think the answer is yes, the volume of the tree could have doubled in that time. Simplifying this greatly and not accounting for increased height, we will compare the cross section of the bottom log. If you have two circles (or logs), one twice the area of the other, the smaller circle will have a diameter ~70% of the larger circle's. So 70% of 23" is 16.1" or about .17" between the rings each year. Easily attained by a white pine that's growing well, which yours seems to be.
Clark
It was the year Mt Pinatubo in the Phillipines blew its stack. I remember sitting on a limestone bluff overlooking Blue River to the west. The sunsets were magnificent.
I was logging a patch of ERC and could cut any tree. There were quite a few old cedars. There were a lot of other cedars growing among the hardwoods. It was a cut to get rid of the cedars to let the hardwoods grow. The old ones were not great trees, not all that big. About 16" at stump. I like to count rings and see how old the cedars are in the patch. Just for fun. I counted the rings on 4 or 5 trees and kept coming up with an age that said they started growing in 1833 give or take a few years.
I left a 1/2 dozen of those old trees, just because I knew they were old and had that patina of life about them. I am logging now just 3/4 mile north of them. In the next few weeks I will check them out again.
Believe it or not, I know a guy who's 85 bought the home farm 60 plus years ago, in the middle of his field, there is a large oak tree, the entire timber/pasture was grubbed decades ago and it now sits in the middle of his field, his kids have wanted it taken down for decades as well, its in the way, literally, but the guy has refused. I finally asked him why not after all these years, and he finally told me, his kids don't even know the story, but he had a picnic under that tree and proposed to his now wife and she accepted his marriage proposal and to him it was sacred, she's passed away a long time ago now and he see's that tree from his house every day, and said, don't tell my kids, its my memory, not theirs and once I"m gone take it down for them, I want it as my private thing, not some sacred family heirloom or anything, his wife even said he should have it taken down a long time ago and he told her no, to him it was the single greatest thing in his life and to her it was the event, not the area it happened, to him it was both and has been there ever since. I left him that day with a tear in my eye, I've already been informed by the family I"m to take it down after he's gone, I kept my mouth shut and just nodded yes I'll do it, that day hasn't come yet, but I'm going to respect the late owners wishes, before his wife passed she told me to take it down no questions asked and to keep quite about it to the family, they never knew anything about it. So do whatever you want, for whatever reason, in the end, its your decision, if you put it to a vote, everyone will have a different idea and reasons to back it up, your the steward of the land now, do whatever you need to have peace of mind and can sleep at night, that in the end is what counts. Best of luck
Thanks for the fine story John.
This Downeast woodland has been hard used for a long while. We bought a 60a woodlot for firewood and retirement (sic) south of you near Deer Isle in 1998. Typical "doghair spruce" ( for the non Maine: tightly packed stands of thin spruce and fir that can't be walked through )with only some hardwoods. Under tree growth the lot was 40% patch cut in '99 under our management plan to leave near all White Pine, Paper Birch, Soft Maple, and small stands of White and Green Ash. Since then I've been opening up the few Apples and cutting enough firewood , some pulp, and sawlogs. This had to be a tough place to live and farm in the past.
Easy winter though.
Sorry to bring up a old topic, but I just learned "how to" on pictures, so I thought I'd add one. The tree hasn't grown much in the last 8 years, but the little guy has.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12559/146_009.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12559/146_008.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12559/146_006.jpg)
I have a big old yellow birch that was 25" 6 years ago. It would likely have a veneer bolt in the but log, but that thing hasn't a dead limb and produces a lot of seed. For some reason when the place was logged, they never cut it. They certainly cut yellow birch, but not that tree. So, it still stands, and I'll not likely cut it. I have no machinery to get it out anyway and no logger is going to come cut one tree. ;) I'm trying to get yellow birch to come back as much as possible. It will grow where sugar maple won't and just as valuable for veneer or logs. I won't live long enough for none of it, but that's part of it I guess. ;)
So its an old thread...
My ma's place as 6-7 redwoods planted next to the garden and shop driveway, My grandpa planted them sometime before he died in 63', ma wants me to cut them all down, even though I never met my grandpa I still don't want to do it, I'd rather cut the two old ceders that guard the shop driveway before I cut these poor redwoods that are so far from home.
There knocking on 60 years old and most of them are less then 12" in dia.