When I first started sawing MY lumber to sell last year, I would saw 4/4, 5/4. etc. and stack and sticker. A customer would come by and buy all my 4/4 lumber and say, " if the rest of it was this thickness, I would buy it all".
So I got smart. On my "high dollar" lumber such as Walnut and Cherry, I now mill the tree into a cant. I just finished a storage shed just for cants. I can now store cants in sizes of 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 and 10x10 inch and up to 12 foot long. Now, when a customer comes by he can choose his cant. I take the 555c and slide the cant out of the shed and gently lay it on the mill. Now the customer can have his lumber milled in any order he likes. This method saves on space also.
Here is a cherry cant I milled this afternoon. The LT 40 sure puts some smooth faces on these cants!
Oh, and my shed floor is built of White Oak floor joists, Pine flooring and Sweetgum siding.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/DSCN0063.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/DSCN0061.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/DSCN0059.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/DSCN0060.JPG)
David
What do you do with the high quality wood that is removed from the cants?
And how do you keep the surfaces of the cants from checking while in storage, reducing any high quality on the four faces?
Nice shed you have there and mill shed too, good job :) :)
Quote from: beenthere on February 29, 2012, 04:40:18 PM
David
What do you do with the high quality wood that is removed from the cants?
And how do you keep the surfaces of the cants from checking while in storage, reducing any high quality on the four faces?
The good cherry wood that are on the slabs, I remove with the skill saw and clean it up with the table saw. I get a bunch of wood that may only be 1 inch thick and 4 inches wide. It sells too.
On your second question about the CHECKING.....well..... :D.....good question. I will paint the ends of the cants and I honestly DON'T know about the 4 faces. Any suggestions? Thanks BT.
I think you'll be farther ahead if you leave the log whole and cut to order.
Those cants start drying out and your going to lose to money.
We only saw 4 days a week so when we go back on Monday, there are usually some faces that have dried out enough that the grade of the board has degraded because of the checking.
Hate to see you throw away some beautiful wood. :o
I have thought about taking whole cants to the kiln drier. There are 2 of them 30 miles away. Then just raising my price to cover my drying cost plus travel.
Or let me ask it this way.....take the whole cant to the kiln or mill it and take the boards to the kiln? Can a cant be kiln dried enough to saw boards later?
david
saw your lumber, air dry or kiln dry. dont mess with storing cants or trying to dry cants. the loss from degrade will kill you. ;)
Agree with Red Oaks.
Have you thought about buying some lumber whole sale and keeping it on hand for retail?
Or something along those lines.
So many other "safe" options to accomplish what you are after.
Nice shed by the way. :)
You can't store cants or at least not in the way you are planing. You also can not dry cants in the way you want.
Keep it in log form and then saw as the customer orders it .
Quebecnewf
OK GUYS........ whiteflag_smiley whiteflag_smiley whiteflag_smiley whiteflag_smiley whiteflag_smiley
I GIVE UP! :D :D
I guess you'll never learn if ya don't ask questions. Thought I had a good idea.....but hurt_smiley.....but it come back to bite me.
I have to be honest....I did not know that it's not a good idea to store cants. I am truly glad I posted before I got myself into a mess!
That's what the FF is for, to help each other and I appreciate all your help on this matter. I will go back tomorrow and mill the cants into 4/4 boards, stack and sticker. I'm just glad I sawed 1 tree today.
Thanks to all of you again.....now I'll crawl under the porch and lick my wounds. 8)
still a nice shed david :D
Quote from: Peter Drouin on February 29, 2012, 07:44:30 PM
still a nice shed david :D
You're funny Peter....at least something good came out of my post. :D :D :D :D
By the way Peter, did you see me shed? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
QuoteI guess you'll never learn if ya don't ask questions.
Your exactly right. :)
We just had to quick jump in and save you from a big ol' mess you would be kicking yourself for later. :D
Now you can post some pictures of that nice Cherry lumber you'll be making. :)
I like the shed. :)
Ya'll have literally got me laughing so hard right now, I'm crying!
I thought I had came up with a good idea and BAM.....ya'll jumped on me like a pack of dogs! smiley_deadheader alligator :D :D :D :D
But I love all ya'll.....but I am rolling! Ya'll set me straight and I'm gonna listen to ya!
Lumber....yes lumber pics to come!
now if we can save ya from eating grits ;D
Quote from: red oaks lumber on February 29, 2012, 08:06:25 PM
now if we can save ya from eating grits ;D
Thats all I CAN eat now......ya'll done knocked my teeth out! :D :D :D
Well that cant thing does work david on the w pine ill keep logs as long as I can. then they will start to blue stain and Ill cut them to an over size cant and cut later. It does help save the log :) :)
you could just cut all your lumber 1/4". Then if a customer wants 4/4 you can glue 4 together. Say another customer wants some 5/4 and some 8/4, get your wood glue out. One size fits all.
It is really a great cant shed! Unfortunately you can't use it for cants :D. It is still a great shed, even if you do not have any teeth left :D.
Anyone know if soft wood cants will degrade to the same degree as hardwood ?
I was planning on storing western red cedar and doug fir cants to saw later, but maybe thats not a good idea either ? any thoughts ?
You really did have a good idea, and I would bet that it has been somebody elses good idea. Only thing is all those that have tried it and it didnt work and now they are giving you there experiences. Isnt it great that there is a FF to help us when we need it. I too like your shed and it will hold all that stickered lumber just fine. bg
I think with certain kinds of wood and in certain climates that can work. But cherry seems to be one of the most finicky species of the 150+ species found in South Carolina. I've had pretty poor luck with it. From now on, I hope to mill it and deliver it to the kiln withing 24 hours and let the people with experience do what's best for it. I really think that, especially for cherry, kiln drying is the primary way to go, and the quicker the better. Cherry boards can be air-dried, but you better do it right and it seems like the kiln is a more sure way of doing things, as long as the kiln operator knows what they are doing.
I have had good luck with air drying cherry except for the boards around the pith. The pith in cherry will pith you off :).
WDH, how much wood do you eliminate with the pith? an inch either side? More? Less?
I just let the chips sawdust fall where they (it) may. I discount the boards with the pith split when I sell those boards, or if I am using those boards in a project, I just cut around the pith splits. Six of one, half dozen of the other, so I take the easy route.
I figured you would cut the pith out to keep the wood from warping when it dried.
If the center boards contain the pith, there is enough meat on the shoulders on either side to keep the board stable. If you cut the pith out, those center boards on either side of the pith will surely have a side bend.
Ok, so the pith just splits instead. Is this mainly how you treat cherry, or most kinds of wood? For instance, I always figured that quarter-sawn boards were better and more stable without the pith, cut them to the width you can get while eliminating the pith and you have quarter-sawn material. Or does it depend on the diameter of the log?
Might be a good start to a dry kiln................ ;D
Colinofthewoods, Western softwoods are more "forgiving" than the eastern hardwoods. Leaving it in the log or large timber does work to a point.
There is also a difference in valuation and utility to consider. The western softwoods do not typically have the dollar value that hardwood lumber has. The western softwood is graded on structural utility and the eastern hardwood is graded for the appearance.
I mill to target my market. I also leave a few large timbers and logs available for custom needs. When I resaw a large timber that has checked, some of the boards fall in half..... >:( I am dealing with lower cost raw material so I accept that outcome.
One more aspect to review is the drying process. In order for lumber to stay straight you want uniform drying. Cutting a 12x12 cant into 1x12 lumber means the center is not the same moisture as the outside. Differential drying equals stress and warp. You get past that when you let the logs/timbers fully cure. That can take years.
Food for thought.
David, you are a smart man to listen to the experience of others. we all make plenty of blunders as we go along. Nothing wrong with new ideas or doing it our own way. We also have the advantage of this assembled tribe of sawyers. This experienced gang can save us a lot of misery if we pay attention and ask the right questions.
Forward we grow!
Cheers from Kderby
I love Grits.. a little butter and salt, mix in an over easy egg, I'm a happy man... BTW.. nice shed!
I really like what kerdby says in his last paragraph. This forum has been an invaluable learning tool for me. A special thanks to all who keep it up an running.
BTW I have a couple of 12x12 cants of white oak approximately 7 foot long milled last Aug. I was going to quarter saw, now they might just stay as is and be used for blocking ect.
Westy
I think you may have helped many people with the same idea
Quote from: Okrafarmer on February 29, 2012, 11:54:43 PM
Ok, so the pith just splits instead. Is this mainly how you treat cherry, or most kinds of wood? For instance, I always figured that quarter-sawn boards were better and more stable without the pith, cut them to the width you can get while eliminating the pith and you have quarter-sawn material. Or does it depend on the diameter of the log?
You are right, the quarter sawn boards are more stable without the pith if you cut out enough of the juvenile wood around the pith. The juvenile wood does shrink a little bit longitudinally, while the mature wood on the outside does not, and this can cause the side bend. I just leave the pith in the middle and cut out the juvenile wood once the board has dried. The pith wood is no good no matter which direction that you take.
When selling wood, the splits and cracks in the pith boards are not very visually appealing, and that is a point for cutting it out while on the sawmill. Well prepared and visually appealing boards is important as you know.
Ok, so there are two approaches-- either cut it out while milling (easy to do with a swing mill or edger)-- or else cut it normally and put it in to dry, let it crack, and deal with it later by trimming out the pith after it's dry. I guess your choice whether to do this might depend partly on the size of the log or the type of mill you are using. So what I want to know, is, if eliminating the pith while milling, how wide a berth do you need to take-- how big is the no-fly-zone you have to get rid of?
Especially when flat sawing Cherry, it is important to orient the pith check in the initial face opening so that it disappears inside of a board.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0724.JPG)
All Cherry logs have them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0734.JPG)
Rotated 90° and opening the second face.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0726.JPG)
Opening the third face.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0737.JPG)
Preparing to saw through.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0741.JPG)
The pith check is contained within a couple of boards.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0728.JPG)
Pith check board. Actually the reverse side was OK.
MM, do you resaw those pith boards? I remember you showing that log before, that was a beaut!
And I learned the hard way not to store cants. I had a log on the mill I got quartered, but couldnt quite handle the meat and didnt have a feed speed controller. So it sat for 2 weeks until I got a speed controller. :D 2 weeks of sitting cost me 4/4 on each side of the log. Totaling around 70bf.
I was sawing for a customer and getting the most yield that I could from his logs. He only wanted 12" wide boards, nothing else and was going to use it as wall paneling.
If I remember correctly, we did not lose a single board from those logs, because one side was always good.
MM--
Why didn't you turn the split at a 45 to try and contain it in the edging?
Not sure if that one ran out into your face.
I have read etc. to try and place defects on the edges of opening faces so the defect can be edged out.
Just curious. :)
Nice log too. 8)
Okrafarmer,
Your question on how much of the juvenile wood to cut off one side of a perfectly quarter sawn board with the pit on one side is a good one. It might depend on the species. At least in oak, the pith cracks can affect a couple of inches on each side of the pith. Pith cracks seem worse in oak and cherry, but I rarely see any in walnut. I don't know the answer to you question, but in oak and cherry, it might be a couple of inches.
Quote from: inspectorwoody on March 01, 2012, 06:01:00 PM
Why didn't you turn the split at a 45 to try and contain it in the edging? I have read etc. to try and place defects on the edges of opening faces so the defect can be edged out.
Quote from: Magicman on March 01, 2012, 02:17:41 PM
I was sawing for a customer and getting the most yield that I could from his logs. He only wanted 12" wide boards, nothing else and was going to use it as wall paneling.
Sawing to a customer's specifications is completely different than sawing for the highest yield and having random width lumber. As my quote indicates, in the above instance, the customer wanted only 12" lumber. Orienting the defect at 45° would have given him zero 12" lumber. As it was, the pith check was contained within 2 boards and even they were usable. I had zero loss with the pith check.
Quote from: WDH on March 01, 2012, 08:51:27 PM
Okrafarmer,
Your question on how much of the juvenile wood to cut off one side of a perfectly quarter sawn board with the pit on one side is a good one. It might depend on the species. At least in oak, the pith cracks can affect a couple of inches on each side of the pith. Pith cracks seem worse in oak and cherry, but I rarely see any in walnut. I don't know the answer to you question, but in oak and cherry, it might be a couple of inches.
I have noticed it doesn't seem to be much of an issue with walnut, red maple, or tulip poplar. More dumb luck than anything, on my part, I guess.
No, not dumb luck. Some species are terrible, and in others it is not a major issue. With Southern Yellow Pine, you rarely see it at all.
I guess I meant it was dumb luck that in my ignorance I sawed a lot of maple, walnut and poplar not knowing much about avoiding pith.
So you don't have to worry much about it with SYP? I thought somebody said (another thread today maybe) that you shouldn't cut through the pith on SYP.
I was referring to the tendency of the pith area to split and crack in a board. That does not happen in southern pine.
SYP does not naturally split at the pith, but if you saw through the pith, your board or cant will not stay straight
MM,
You just cant trust a pith :D.
Yup, the very best pith will break your heart. :D
Then I guess the thing to do is find logs that don't have any pith. :-\
And some that grow square without any bark or taper and no limbs (knots). If you are going to dream, you may as well dream big :D.
I saw a tree like that once, and then I noticed it was a lamp post.
That would be nice, but it ain't gonna happen. We just learn to accept, avoid, and live with pith.
That is why landscape timbers, etc. contain the pith. Veneer and plywood sheeting is rolled off and the lumber industry found a way to contain the pith and sell it at a profit.
With high grade logs, I center the pith. With low grade, I don't worry about it so much because the low grade log is gonna break your heart anyway :).
Quote from: Magicman on March 01, 2012, 10:42:04 PM
That would be nice, but it ain't gonna happen. We just learn to accept, avoid, and live with pith.
That is why landscape timbers, etc. contain the pith. Veneer and plywood sheeting is rolled off and the lumber industry found a way to contain the pith and sell it at a profit.
I guess it's a matter of containment. Sounds like foreign policy to me. I guess we have to learn to coexist in a world containing pith. :-\
Three of my favorite guys doing a trilogy on pith... Only on the Forum... My experience with cherry is limited but interesting. I sawed up a trailer load of sizeable cherry logs for a neighbor that looked nothing like M-M's stuff.
They had been on the ground for a while(months) and were more sap wood than the good stuff. However all the sap wood had spalted. I kept all of the sap wood and recently sanded some up and tossed some gloss poly on a few pieces. Gorgeous if you like spalted stuff. I may have the world's largest supply on hand. Say your prayers.
Did ya'll see my shed? 8)
what kind of Snow Load in your area
A couple of things. Absolutely, you want to cut cherry fairly quickly. As far as the pith goes, don't discount making a 4 sided cant and when you get near the pith, cutting out a nice fireplace mantle, centering the pith. Without an edger it would be a bit more of a pain, but those mantles that are 3 sided with the natural curvature on one edge can sell pretty darned good too. Sometimes you can get as much for one of those than you will get for all the rest of the lumber.
There is a good reason for storing cants when not cutting grade lumber. If someone orders a 16 foot trailer deck, and you need to get a few boards off of a second log to fill the order, cut them, then kick the cant off and store it. We have a variety of oak cants sitting around. We try to go through and clean them up regularly, especially in the summer. We can always cut them into blocking. But they sure come in handy if someone needs a couple of sideboards in a hurry for a dump truck.
I've got somewhere between 8-900 bdft of black cherry that's been air drying for about 6 years .I don't recall any splits that I can remember .
It might have something to do with the area the tree is grown in and this part of Ohio and eastern Indiana is noted for good black cherry .
Faster growth rates, like in the South, probably make it worse because there will be a wider band of juvenile wood. However, I bet that you have some pith splits unless the pith was removed when the boards were sawn. It will be interesting to see what you find when you pull the stack. You are obligated to report back :D.
Let me just I didn't notice any .I had to restack that stuff a few years back to get a bucket truck in my shop for a boom change and the cherry is on the bottom of a 7 feet high 4 feet wide stack .
There's some 20 footers on the bottom .Next I'm out there I'll get a picture .Might show something might not ???
Nice shop 60 by 70 but it's 22 miles from where I live .
Quote from: Magicman on March 01, 2012, 08:54:12 PM
Quote from: inspectorwoody on March 01, 2012, 06:01:00 PM
Why didn't you turn the split at a 45 to try and contain it in the edging? I have read etc. to try and place defects on the edges of opening faces so the defect can be edged out.
Sawing to a customer's specifications is completely different than sawing for the highest yield and having random width lumber. As my quote indicates, in the above instance, the customer wanted only 12" lumber. Orienting the defect at 45° would have given him zero 12" lumber. As it was, the pith check was contained within 2 boards and even they were usable. I had zero loss with the pith check.
One problem that I have with this advice to place the defects on the edge and edge them out is that it results in grain that is off-center. I've had Magicman saw about 1000 BF of cherry for me, and I'm very impressed with the care that he takes to center the grain in the boards. It results in the most attractive boards for furniture-building (which is what I'm going to do with it). Also, I want the widest boards possible so that my furniture has as few glue joints as possible on wide panels. It may make sense to saw this way when you're sawing "for grade" but when you're sawing "for customer", then, like Magicman said, you saw what the customer wants. I don't want my logs sawed that way.
Nice shed David. I'd sit there and eat my grits.
Excuse a newbie question, but what does "center the grain" mean?
When you have flatsawn lumber, the annual rings make big arches on the face of the board. When I talk about centering the grain, I am referring to keeping these arches in the middle of the board rather than off to one side. Getting the grain centered requires care and planning ahead when sawing. It's not something that everyone will notice, but to me, it makes a big difference in the appearance of the lumber. It makes me happy when a sawyer takes the time to do this without even asking. Can you tell that I think highly of Magicman's sawing abilities? :D
Thanks Dodgy!
Yes, Mr. Magicman sure knows his stuff. He and several other equally wise and well-spoken folks have provided me with a wealth of information. I'm sure many others on here think the same.
Just think, all this great info, good comeraderie and no politics to spoil it all! :D
P.S. I love grits and married a GRITS. ;D
I like the shed :) If it had a few more boards on it it would look sharp on my pond ;D I looked at your pictures of your other projects very nice!
Thanks for the info Dodgy Loner. ;)
I learned something new.
Never thought about it that way from a woodworker's point of view.
So you would rather see a knot in the middle of a face if it means centering the grain?
Just trying to learn a little more.
I didn't mean to sound like I was questioning MM ability if that is how it sounded. He does good work and I enjoy his posts and all the information he shares. :)
Quote from: inspectorwoody on March 02, 2012, 03:00:53 PM
I didn't mean to sound like I was questioning MM ability if that is how it sounded.
Absolutely not. Your question was well received and and hopefully answered. (I paid DL to say all of that stuff. That guy is easy to fool.) :) He is also very kind to the old man.
I set logs up and open faces mainly looking at two items. The sweep in the log and possible pith check. Those two will kill lumber quality and usability quicker than anything else. The sweep is what DL was referring to. Handle it correctly and the grain will be centered in every board. Also, to me, a centered knot is far better than an edge or off centered knot. Remember that I have never sawed lumber for sale. My customer is the only person that I have to satisfy.
What do you do with 2 knots or 3 MM :D :D :D
Ever notice the name of my sawing business ???
Quote from: red on March 02, 2012, 06:59:16 AM
what kind of Snow Load in your area
0, none, zip, nadda.....this year!
Red keeps us Southern boys on our snow-load toes ;D.
Quote from: WDH on March 02, 2012, 09:35:38 PM
Red keeps us Southern boys on our snow-load toes ;D.
I'm just worried about the storms coming through tonight! :'(
That main line of storms with the purple in it is about 50 miles from me now si it will probably be a rough night. I knew that it had been too hot for the past couple of days. We generally pay for that. :-\
Quote from: Magicman on March 02, 2012, 09:48:09 PM
That main line of storms with the purple in it is about 50 miles from me now si it will probably be a rough night. I knew that it had been too hot for the past couple of days. We generally pay for that. :-\
I'll be up late watching the Weather Channel. coocoo_clock
you dont have to worry with a shed like that. Those cants are gonna be high and dry
Quote from: cypresskayaksllc on March 02, 2012, 09:56:22 PM
you dont have to worry with a shed like that. Those cants are gonna be high and dry
High and Dry up in the top of a Pine Tree 8 miles away. :'(
well then someone will have a nice tree house
Quote from: Magicman on March 02, 2012, 09:48:09 PM
That main line of storms with the purple in it is about 50 miles from me now si it will probably be a rough night. I knew that it had been too hot for the past couple of days. We generally pay for that. :-\
That line of storms has already passed thru here. I rode it out in the cab of an old prentice knuckle-boom loader. The storm hit so suddenly, I didn't have time to get out. Nickle sized hail, torrents of rain, and very windy.
Coming toward me and POSTON next.
But about the cherry, this thread is getting me worked up to mill me some cherry, now that y'all have educated me a little better about it. I have a partial whack of cherry logs sitting around ready to mill, maybe about 300-500 bf. Most of them aren't real good logs, and some of them have been sitting around for a year and a half with painted ends. Better do something with them quickly. I got a few more recently, but I been waiting for the right opportunity. Want to do it all in one or two days so to be able to whip it over to the kiln quickly. Kiln is about 40 miles away.
Pictures are required :).
ok, ok. ;)
Keep from eating grits food1 NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice shed smiley_grin
Maybe I'm wrong but Cherry is so dense and dries so slowly that I do not see the need to rush into the kiln process.
I sawed a very large Cherry job that was to be used for wall paneling in a new home. I dead stacked it on his trailer and he carried it to the kiln. A few weeks later, I saw that same lumber being T&G/V grooved and it was not dry. Since Cherry has virtually no shrinkage as it dries, I'm sure that it was OK, but it either should have air dried longer before the kiln, or the kiln operator did not know his business and it should have stayed there longer.
Someone with kiln knowledge can chime in here.
I called ELLIS LUMBER who is located 30 miles north of me in Shelby,N.C. They have a kiln dryer. I was asking about getting my Cherry lumber dried. He recommended I stack and sticker 3 months before I bring it to the kiln.
I have talked to Ellis Lumber too, sounds like they know their stuff. Just a little farther away than I like to go.
I guess I got the wrong idea about cherry in the past because of my inexperience. Either I was not stacking it right, or including pith when I shouldn't have, or trying to save too much crotch wood, or just milling junk logs.
If Magicman says it doesn't need to jump right in the kiln, then I guess he must be right. I'm so glad we had this thread. Unfortunately, I try to saw cherry logs that are too crooked, and that might be part of the problem too.
:-\
Most of the cherry trees around here are shaped like exaggerated pretzels.... But I can't bring myself to waste them for pulp of firewood if I could possibly mill them! ::)
But I also said that I have no kiln knowledge, and that post was based on supposition. Unfortunately, I get to see very little of my sawed lumber as a finished product.
Magic....Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to see your finished customers product. :)
This is some Red Oak wall paneling that I did get to see.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0170.JPG)
After I finished sawing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/3609/DSCN0491.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/3609/DSCN0492.JPG)
After the kiln, T&G, and installation.
Very Nice! :) Wish I had that much.
I guess that I coulda showed it before sawing. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0380M.JPG)
He had a few ERC logs on the right that are stickered at the bottom of the right stack of lumber.
Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 03, 2012, 11:31:57 AM
Most of the cherry trees around here are shaped like exaggerated pretzels.... But I can't bring myself to waste them for pulp of firewood if I could possibly mill them! ::)
:D :D :D :D :D :D
I know what you mean. I cut a lot of my cherry trees into 4' logs because the DanG things don't grow straight. The 4' cherry lumber sells as well as the 8' does, and it all sells no matter the quality. I will cut logs as small as 6-7 inches. As long as I can get 4, four inch boards I'll saw it.
Quote from: Magicman on March 03, 2012, 04:58:16 PM
I guess that I coulda showed it before sawing. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0380M.JPG)
He had a few ERC logs on the right that are stickered at the bottom of the right stack of lumber.
You don't see many like that in that quantity in S.C.
Since Cherry is darker colored, it does not suffer from staining as easily as light-colored woods like Maple do. In that regard, it is not necessary to rush it into a kiln. Air drying it first will save time in the kiln but at the risk of inducing hairline checks. Those checks are formed early in the drying process at high moisture contents. Since air-drying is virtually uncontrolled, Cherry (or any wood) can dry too quickly in the initial stages, leading to hairline checks in Cherry or larger checks (honeycomb) in species like Oak.
Any lumber that comes out of a kiln still wet is not because it wasn't air dried long enough but because the kiln operator used the wrong schedule.
Quote from: Tree Feller on March 03, 2012, 07:20:25 PM. . . .Air drying it first will save time in the kiln but at the risk of inducing hairline checks. Those checks are formed early in the drying process at high moisture contents. Since air-drying is virtually uncontrolled, Cherry (or any wood) can dry too quickly in the initial stages, leading to hairline checks in Cherry or larger checks (honeycomb) in species like Oak.
Time in the kiln is of little consequence to me, since I am being charged the same price to dry it per bf no matter how long it is in the kiln.
It's my understanding that the kiln allows for a chance to actually control the process of drying, as well as speed it up, which should preserve the quality of the wood more than air drying. Advanced kiln drying techniques, though I am not skilled or instructed in them, involve more than simply putting the wood in there for a specified amount of time and hoping for the best. The humidity and temperature are controlled in different time-frames for different species, including changing the temp and humidity settings part way through the process. Some species are much simpler to dry than others-- some of the easier ones include poplar, pine, cedar, and most of the softwoods, whereas the harder ones or less stable ones seem to have the most trouble, such as oak, hickory, sweetgum, and holly. I guess ones like cherry, walnut, and maple might be in the middle for difficulty, not sure, going on what the lady at the kiln told me-- she really seemed to know her stuff.
Anyway, whenever I get to the cherry logs I have, to mill, one of the first will be an intriguing ornamental cherry we took down a few weeks ago. I need to get pix of that log, and document it as I mill it, but that won't be for a while, I have too many other things happening right now.
Oh, nice shed, POSTON!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
If you have trouble thinking of things to keep in there, I'll just bring some of my random stuff over to fill it with.
I saw results of some storm damage this AM going on I485 east of Charlotte. Looked like straight line winds. Stuff all in road tops of trees broken off. On way back by in Early PM the state had cleaned up the road and power company was putting lines back up. Based on junk in road there were houses damaged.
Poston, I hate I was not able to come on Friday but work interferes with play. I hope you had great turn out. I will have to come by sometime to meet and greet and of course see that great shed!
This has been very informative post thanks to all.
Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 03, 2012, 07:44:43 PM
Oh, nice shed, POSTON!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
If you have trouble thinking of things to keep in there, I'll just bring some of my random stuff over to fill it with.
I can store the busted pieces of the rear end of your 350 when you open it up..... 8)
Ok. Want to keep those, never know when they might come in handy for something!
Ya'll have talked about the face cracking on CHERRY lumber. If I air dry my Cherry lumber and I am looking for 1 inch finished lumber after planing, should I mill my cant into 1 1/2 inch boards to take in consideration the planing and cracking? Or how deep will the face cracking go?
1 1/8" thick is fine. The cracking and splitting is only in the board or boards that contain the pith. The other boards dry without splits and cracks.
Quote from: Tree Feller on March 03, 2012, 07:20:25 PM
Since air-drying is virtually uncontrolled, Cherry (or any wood) can dry too quickly in the initial stages, leading to hairline checks in Cherry or larger checks (honeycomb) in species like Oak
I air dry all my lumber and have never noticed any hairline checks and none of my customers have ever mentioned anything about that. I have always been under the impression (and still am) that air drying is gentler and kinder on the lumber than kiln drying. Air drying is pretty much uncontrolled but it dries over a much longer period of time so I think keeps the lumber in good shape.
I am not knocking kiln drying. It is a real art and my hat is off to those who can do it well. I just don't want anyone to think air dried lumber is inferior to kiln dried.
Many woodworkers prefer air dried lumber. It is all that I have ever used. I think that air dried walnut, for example, is superior to kiln dried in terms of color and beauty.
If you plan ahead on a project, you can take the air dried lumber and stack it in an out of the way place inside and let it acclimate.
Quote from: WDH on March 04, 2012, 08:11:23 PM
Many woodworkers prefer air dried lumber. It is all that I have ever used. I think that air dried walnut, for example, is superior to kiln dried in terms of color and beauty.
I had two woodworkers tell me they never buy kiln dried lumber because the wood doesn't have the color of air dried. They were buying cherry.
Quote from: cutterboy on March 04, 2012, 08:20:55 PM
Quote from: WDH on March 04, 2012, 08:11:23 PM
Many woodworkers prefer air dried lumber. It is all that I have ever used. I think that air dried walnut, for example, is superior to kiln dried in terms of color and beauty.
I had two woodworkers tell me they never buy kiln dried lumber because the wood doesn't have the color of air dried. They were buying cherry.
Did not know this Cutterboy....somethink to think about. Good info!
Also, Cherry is so dense that there is virtually no shrinkage.
Does cherry crotch wood need special consideration? A lot of the ones I milled got really crooked. Also, what about curved pieces? Again, I am always trying to save good cherry out of bad logs. ::)
You could leave the live edge on the curved section boards/slabs. They would make nice tables, benches, etc.
True. I might be able to sell a few like that. Otherwise, I guess I have to cut it up short for project wood or something.
Cherry is fairly lightweight in my experience...about the same as red maple I think. MM, maybe you were refering to its appearence? its very smooth and close grained. I have no idea of its H20% or its shrinkage relative to other woods.
Okrafarmer...Cherry crotches are very tough to dry without checking or movement. I cut most crotches 10/4 and once dry, resaw them for bookmatches. I dry all my short slabs and crotches standing up in the machine shed, cherry wants to flake, walnut wants to split and apple wants to twist. some crotches dry well though. for instance, I have some Kentucky Coffee wood crotches that dried almost perfectly, some with 0 degrade. I would slab it all heavy and put it away for a year or two. you should be able to recover some interesting stuff once its dry.
Wow, you guys know stuff. Thanks for letting me listen in.
Quote from: 5quarter on March 05, 2012, 12:49:53 AM
MM, maybe you were refering to its appearence? its very smooth and close grained. I have no idea of its H20% or its shrinkage relative to other woods.
I was referring to it shrinking dimensionally. Whatever you saw it, that is about what it will be. Cherry and Sycamore are two woods that have minimum shrinkage. The "old folks" would use fresh cut Sycamore for trim work because of this characteristic.
a hundred or so years ago when I was but a wee lad on the weekends I would hang out by the kilns and check the gauges for the watchmen at the shop tell him what they said and if I recall correctly
The kilns were fired by all the log waste
After wood like cherry was in at a certain temp so long it was hit with steam I opened the valve recall the guy telling me certain woods depending on temp dried outside to quicksand the heat with moisture fixed it just had to watch temp
Is this correct???
Other. Times different guys did it differently my granddads and several others place I was 6-10 years old at the time and wanted to know how to do everything
Quote from: 5quarter on March 05, 2012, 12:49:53 AM
Okrafarmer...Cherry crotches are very tough to dry without checking or movement. I cut most crotches 10/4 and once dry, resaw them for bookmatches. I dry all my short slabs and crotches standing up in the machine shed, cherry wants to flake, walnut wants to split and apple wants to twist. some crotches dry well though. for instance, I have some Kentucky Coffee wood crotches that dried almost perfectly, some with 0 degrade. I would slab it all heavy and put it away for a year or two. you should be able to recover some interesting stuff once its dry.
Thanks for the info, 5quarter. I never sawed cherry crotches but have been thinking about it and also the curved short logs for benches and tables. I have sawed oak crotches and had mixed resultes but I only sawed them an inch thick. I think I'll use your method of sawing thick and resawing them once dry. But why do you stand them up to dry them?
Quote from: inspectorwoody on March 02, 2012, 03:00:53 PM
Thanks for the info Dodgy Loner. ;)
I learned something new.
Never thought about it that way from a woodworker's point of view.
So you would rather see a knot in the middle of a face if it means centering the grain?
Yes, I would rather have the knot in the middle of the face, because I almost never use a board full-length. Probably 90% of the boards that go into my projects are less than 3' long. And it's very rare that I use a board that is longer than 4 or 5 feet. So on an 8- or 9-foot log, there will be plenty of good wood on both sides of a knot that's centered in the board. I will take grain patterns and yield above "grade" any day. But of course, I am not your typical customer. Just offering a different perspective :).
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on March 05, 2012, 04:47:33 PM
But of course, I am not your typical customer. Just offering a different perspective :).
Dodgy, you make a good point. Nobody is a typical customer. Everybody has a different perspective. Different people will see different things in the same board. Some will like it, others will not. That is why I let customers pick through the lumber to find the boards they want.
cherry shrinks just like all woods, maybe not as much but, on an 8" wide board you'll see almost 1/4/" shrink. all woods the wider you go the more the shrink.
so to be a good sawyer you really need to have first hand knowlage of how much each wood shrinks, that way when your custom sawying and the guy says in conversation i'm going to make 5" floor out of that maple your sawing.and now with your info for shrink you can saw the 1x6 to 6/1/4 to allow for shrink ,when the wood goes to a shop for machining there is still almost a full 6" board to start working with.
because i saw and dry i have charted all that stuff so i can oversize everywood differanty to allow for shrink :)
The hickories, the oaks, and sweetgum all are at the higher end of the shrinkage spectrum.
I built an outside deck 7 years ago out of freshly sawn Cherry. I did not leave any space between the decking boards thinking that shrinkage would provide me with a space. Well it has not happened. :-\
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0264.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0263.JPG)
Quote from: Magicman on March 05, 2012, 08:48:57 PM
I built an outside deck 7 years ago out of freshly sawn Cherry. I did not leave any space between the decking boards thinking that shrinkage would provide me with a space. Well it has not happened. :-\
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0264.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0263.JPG)
MAGIC.....This is too cool. Did you put any kind of sealer on your Cherry deck? If so, what kind?
While cherry is on the low end of the shrinkage scale, it most definitely does shrink a noticeable amount.
Plug your numbers into the The Shrinkulator (http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm) to see just how much.
So that's the color of cherry after the UV rays hit it a while? Or did you stain it or something? Wow, not sure if I would have made a deck out of cherry, just because I like to see that lovely red color.
Thompson's Water Seal is the only thing that has ever been put on it. It has oxidized and grayed to a point the it is indistinguishable as being Cherry. Heavy pressure washing will restore some of the color by removing oxidized wood.
I'll be glad when that shrinking finally comes along, because the tight boards trap moisture between them and there is some rot that will have to be replaced this year.
Using Cherry was a bad idea, but I had more Cherry lumber than I had money to buy treated lumber with. I'll replace the deteriorated boards with more Cherry.
Wow, MM, hard to imagine having that problem!
Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 05, 2012, 11:05:40 PM
Wow, MM, hard to imagine having that problem!
What, the lack of shrinkage? :D
I've seen where they can blast wood with dry ice and restore it to it's former glory. But I guess if you happen to have a sawmill right handy, so does cutting new lumber ;)
Quote from: eastberkshirecustoms on March 06, 2012, 12:36:20 AM
Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 05, 2012, 11:05:40 PM
Wow, MM, hard to imagine having that problem!
What, the lack of shrinkage? :D
I've seen where they can blast wood with dry ice and restore it to it's former glory. But I guess if you happen to have a sawmill right handy, so does cutting new lumber ;)
How long does that "return to former glory" last?
The process basically is gently stripping off the weathered layer and showing the 'new' underneath (almost like exfoliating skin, I guess). I would think that if there was good 'meat' underneath the old, it would last as long as new wood, properly weather-proofed, of course. I want to add that I have no experience with the process, only what I've seen on home improvement shows and read about in the rags. Some of benefits are that no additional moisture or chemicals are introduced into the wood and it is environmentally friendly. I guess the down side would be that it is not to DIY friendly- how many people have a dry ice blasting rig in their back yard or SHED?
I just noticed that there was some pictures of a SHED at the beginning of this thread. Very nice, Poston. I could use a few of those. Since you no longer have a use for it, how much to ship it to NY?
Quote from: eastberkshirecustoms on March 06, 2012, 03:13:14 AM
I just noticed that there was some pictures of a SHED at the beginning of this thread. Very nice, Poston. I could use a few of those. Since you no longer have a use for it, how much to ship it to NY?
I may auction it off! If I can find a box to put it in. :D
MM,
You have a beautiful deck. I had a cedar deck that oxidized horribly, we pressure washed, used a floor sander on deck, palm sanded the rail's/tight area's lightly and it turned back very nice. It does work pretty well.