I was wondering who here is running a modified saw, and how they would rate the outcome. There is plenty of talk about it but actually dropping the cash or breaking out the dremel is another thing. Who did it, what did they do, how is the perfomance different, etc. Thanks!
I am. All of my bigger saws have at least a modified muffler, (036, 046 and 066) and my new favorite is my Walkerized package MS460. I've only got a few tanks of fuel through it, but it cuts like my 066. It also has enough power to pull the chain with an 8 spline rim (I am using a 20" bar).
Definately worth the $$ dropped.
*WARNING* once your run a modified saw you'll never go back.
Captain
Most of my saws are Modified. I have a Power Ported 346xp,350,357xp,372xp,and a 385xp.
When you get these saws ported, they REALLY come alive. Most factory saws are detuned a bit from the factory. I have had Saws Built by EHP Race and Ported Woods saws and also by Dozer Dan.
They both are great builders. Dan Henry did my 346XP and he made this thing sing. You could not believe the differance. My 346 will outcut a stock 357xp no Problem.
Ed Heard did my 357XP. Wow what a saw. This 357xp will cut with a stock 385XP if not outcut one. In timed cuts a stock Dolmar 7900 cut 1.8 seconds and my 357xp cut 1.9 in the same wood.
Ported saws are a big help. They make cuts easier and faster and have just as much life as a stock saw. Porting just makes the saw that much more efficiant.
I have 1 saw thats not prted and thats my 338XPT. As soon as I can get a little bit of down time, it to will be sent out to be ported.
Hunter
I run a modified muffler on my Jonsereds 670 champ and I will NOT go back to a stock saw again! I did all the mods myself, I just had to find the dremel and cut 2 new ports in the muffler, I have found it now has the power of a stock 045 or maybe a 046 plus the noise of a V8 with no muffler. I love it. Gotta have it precision tuned by Dozer Dan and have it modified some more as soon as I have the $$$$$$$ to spend on it.
For those of us who just want the Toyota to run out of the box and work, what does all this power-porting and mod do for the saw's warranty? Do Stihl and Husq warrant modded saws ?
How many of you have used a mod saw for years? How long ?
Around here in northern Maine, none of the pro loggers (about 12 I know) ever used mod saws. Is there something there?
Talk.
have an 372 pp modded by dan henry.. best saw ive ever owned..
i just run a 20on it and it makes any saw work childs play..
but rite now my backs out so im back to my 026..
Ok.... I don't know much. I do know something about walkerizing saws, but not much there either. How do I get in touch with Dan Henry or any of the other people out there who modify saws?
Email me, I can get you in touch with Dan Henry and EHP race Ported saws.
I know of ported saws over 3yr old.
They run better and last longer than a stock saw. In the logging industry, a 2yr life sapn is average for a saw.
Hunter
Hello again.Well did know there was that many chainsaw racers out there.For a minite I thought I was on the Marlin talk forum.All I can add here is Ive been thre done that.Ya it take some frigging around time and youll get a little more out of the saw.Maybe a few seconds faster in the cut,for all your time and money spent and its fun for a while.But in the end its cheaper just to move up one or two saw engines bigger.No sub for cc s and rpms.All your going to be doing is carrying a pound or two heaver saw.But as far as the extra few seconds in the cut goes,is any one sanding beside you in the woods with a stop watch to see you shave a couple of seconds off your bucking time between one block and the nexted. Not in my neck of the woods they dont.Only way is computerized fuel injection,and man thats a big step.I think in the nexted year or so you will start seeing 4 stoke chain saws.They are all ready produceing weed trimmers like that with some good resaults.It will be interesting to see what happins inthe nexted few years.Just my two cents worth.Hawkin.
Yeah I would like to see those 4 stroke engines in chainsaws, I would hope they have the power to get through the job. I would much rather keep my 2cycle chainsaw over a new fangled 4stroke model, just because I like the 2cycle and the sound of one at about 9K revs in the cut. but the way things are getting nowadays with emissions regulations becoming stricter and all that, I bet they will start making some models with a 4stroke in them. What is the maximum rpm for a 4stroke trimmer anyway? this could be a major factor in their ideas about them engines and chainsaws going together. Have a great time now, dont get hurt with them big saws of yours.
great to get so many posts. I am just about to send a saw off to Dan myself.I understand that in comparison to a given saw plus modifications, it would be cheaper to just buy a bigger saw. And I have nothing against another saw except I also need money for guns,snowmobiles,and child support.By modifying the saw I already have I'm 3/4 there. Plus there is the intangible of using a piece of tuned,customized equipment to make many woodchips.
I doubt that the 4-stroke saws will get very far on the market for the same reason you don't see small airplanes with diesel engines. The power to weight ratio sucks. When I have to carry the saw all day, I want as much power as I can get with the least weight I can find.
Do you consider a saw modified when all I did was take out the spark arrestor? The saw idles much smoother now and the engine just screams at full throttle. It seems like I gained a bunch of power.
All of my saws except two are modified in some way or another. The list includes a 345 Husky with modified muffler which really came alive. It`s a good saw for carrying on the 4 wheeler on the nastiest trails. I`ve also got an 026 I did myself by widening the transfers and dropping them into the base, gently increasing port timing, decreasing squish, chamfering the ports and opening the muffler, what a difference it made. Then I`ve got a Walkerized 346xp which is a real screamer that easily pulls 73LG. Then I have the Dennis Greffard MS260 Pro, 357xp, and 385xp, all strong saws. Finally we get to my pound for pound favorite, my Ken Dunn 372xp which has flat out embarrassed much larger displacement saws. I`m expecting a Dan Henry Power Ported 346xp to show up on my doorstep soon and Ed Heard(EHP) is building me a new 460 Mag. I guess that you could say that I`m a fan of modified saws. The other two that I currently have that aren`t modified are an 026 for hired guns if I need to supply the saw and an MS260 Pro that I keep for my dad to use when we cut together, that stock muffler is so much quieter that I believe that it`s easier on him by keeping him more relaxed.
I don`t entirely subscribe to the idea that there is no replacement for displacement when it comes to saws. With modern saws being so detuned from the factory, smaller properly modified saws often easily outproduce much larger saws. If your modified saw is only shaving a few seconds off a cut it wasn`t modified right, unless you are cutting doghair.
As far as longevity of modified saws is concerned, there is no real rule. I think that subtlely modified saws like those done by Madsen`s, Walker`s, or just a muffler job, will last longer due to the cooler running temps. More heavily modified saws with more port area give up some cooling ability and you lose some of what you gained by opening the muffler. They still seem to run just as long as any quality stock saw that I`ve seen though. The thing is that you will see substantially more production in that lifetime from a heavily "woods" modified saw.
And then there`s the grin factor. ;D
Russ
I have two saws which were built by Danny Henry and I may never buy another stock saw. Both of mine are much stronger than stock and they run perfectly except for being louder than stock.
I also have a couple stock saws that I've opened the muffler outlet for better exhaust flow. This is a quick 15 minute fix which will give you a noticable increase in power as well as allowing the engine to run cooler. On saws purchased in other countries without EPA emissions limits, this is not necessary. Stihl saws sold in Brazil, for example, have different mufflers and are much more powerful than their identical USA counterparts. They also do not 'lean seize' as often as EPA governed chainsaws since they run cooler.
Minn. Boy- Removing the spark arrester screen is not really modifying the muffler, it's just removing the spark arrester screen. If you enlarge the outlet hole under the screen, you can re-install the (cleaned) screen and still have better exhaust flow than stock.
There you go again, talking dirt : "widening the transfers", "dropping them into the base", increasing port timing", decreasing squish" (my all time favorite), "chamfering the ports". ::) What in the H are talking about. Explain to us unwashed.
Whew, when you're done, what ? Please, it's nice to do all that and talk TLA (computer industry jargon).
We respect the hobby to race, to soup up, to tune. But understand that most of us have a whole lot of other things in our lives including working wood. Some of us climb, ski race, sae kayak for example. We want a tool that works. Works well day after day. Whether it's cars, firearms, ATVs, climbing gear, tools...give me one that just plain works. IMHO 8).
Now the answers: how about the manufacturer's warranty for mods ? (They will not warranty mods on motorcycles for example).
Why don't all pro cutters--arborists, loggers--use modded saws at least here in the Northeast ?
How about longevity...real time facts ?
So, look at the other sideS. Give me a reliable, day to day machine that does what it should.
BTW: most of the pros here use about a saw per year--no mods. These are used hard and daily in all weather.
logbutcher-
IMHO, many saw owners feel exactly like you do. They trust the $12 per hour kid at the dealership better than they trust their own knowledge of their saw, therefore they do absolutely nothing to the saw except put gas and oil in it, and maybe clean the air filter. No other screws are touched or adjustments are made because 'they don't want to void the 'warranty'.
IMHO, people who do not wish to understand chainsaws should not modify their saws and then expect warranty work. That is fine, nothing wrong with running stock saws if you are not into making stuff better. BUT this thread is asking about modified saws. Therefore those of us who own and use modified saws are expressing our opinions.
I do not think anyone who owns a modified saw is particularly worried about not being able to get the $12 per hour kid at the dealership to mess with our saws for free under 'warranty'. Most of us are fully capable of adjusting our own carbs and changing our own sprockets. Most of us have never let a dealer work on our saws after purchase. We understand enough about the internal workings of a two cycle engine to know that there is no downside to properly modifying a muffler to reduce temps and increase exhaust flow.
If you want to start worrying about 'warranty', then don't touch anything on your saw unless you know what you are touching. :)
i took some advice last year on muffler mods on my 032, opend her up and played with the carb. made one heck of a diffrence. made it my best saw till i broke the rear handle.
Lotsa talk about modding mid sized saws like the 372. What modding a 3120 Husky? Then you'd have a saw ;) ;D 8) 8)
EHP Race and Ported saws(Ed Heard) has a Stroked 3120 on Nitro. Its his race saw. He also has a 3120 Work saw, with a standard porting job. Both saws really run well.
Hunter
at my best i was 180 and could work with any man in the steel mill i worked in.. im not sure even then id have enjoyed using that heavy a saw ..but to each his own :)
:o ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-*
Rocky Rocky Rocky....how about some explanation now.
Yep, we do adjust those screws, do sprocket changes, do clean/gap plugs...the usual. Hey Mr J. I even drilled two (count'em) "2" 1/4" holes in the muffler to open her'up, and then screwed the carb to adjust hi/lo/idle. More noise but no serious gain except some noise. I tried.
So what do all those terms mean? Curious minds do want to know. I'm willing to learn without the sarcasm and dissing.
Know of no "$12/hour 'kids' "working on anyone's saw around here....no way Mr Rocky. :o And, BTW: NO one cleans my weapons but me.
So ease off some and explain what those terms mean.
PS This is an open forum, remember?
Ask Ed what happened to him at eagle river a few weeks ago..
over a sec. and a half 6.19 to a 7.55
Cliff
3120 stroked with Nitro should run well 8) Some friends of mine bought one and then had to hire an extra man to help carry it. ;D ;D Way more saw than I need. My 395's big enough and it's the reason I've also got a 372
He got a respectable 3rd. He will get better as the season get rolling.
Hunter
Logbutcher,
You seem to display a disdain for anyone who would expect more than average performance from their saws, or maybe it`s just sarcasm, but it isn`t flattering to you. Do you really think that anyone is going to take their "daily driver" saw and modify it to where it loses reliabilty? If you do, you are implying that those people aren`t too bright and not nearly as intelligent as someone like yourself, whom it is implied, works in the computer industry, or do you just read alot of computer mags? BTW, "pro user" only means that a person somehow uses a chainsaw in earning a living. It does not tell us anything at all about how well they use the saw or understand how to maximize it`s use.
Stand by if you are interested in the terms that I used in my earlier post. I`ll try to explain them to your satisfaction since I am not trying to exclude or dazzle anyone with unfamiliar terms. I will however be simplifying things considerably just to get the point across.
Modern two stroke motors as you will find in chainsaws are piston ported. That means that you have no valves or valve train like in an automotive engine, simply holes or "ports" that are either open when the piston is not covering them, or closed when the piston is. Obviously where the ports are placed is important, not only to allow the engine to run at all but to give the engine the performance characteristics that you desire. In chainsaw engines, the latest research and field evidence clearly shows that higher rpm power is desirable since a primary limiting factor in chainsaw cutting efficiency and speed is the depth gauge clearance and chip size, so the more produced in a given time, the better.
Depth gauge clearance has two main functions, limit the size chip being taken and reduce kickback potential. The benefit of reducing kickback potential is obvious, whereas limiting chip size is less so. Because of the way that chain teeth operate, it is necessary to having opposing teeth. This results in a chip channel being formed on the insides of the cutters. The smaller chips can pass through but larger chips must be pushed through the entire cut in the spaces between teeth causing lessened cutting efficiency. This is one reason that some people can fool themselves into thinking that skip chain with the rakers ground off is faster than full comp chain with normal raker clearance. For them it is, but let them run against someone who knows how to maintain a full comp chain and they get their asses handed to them. So where this discussion leads is to the benefit of high chain speed and how to get it.
The way to high chain speed is primarily through a faster, more powerful engine. If you understand how camshafts with higher "lift" and more "duration" increase horsepower and push the rpm where max power is acheived higher in a four stroke engine, you shoud be able to grasp how making the transfer ports in a two stroke larger(they flow more similar to more lift) and raising the port duration or "timing" is beneficial.
Most modern two stroke engines are also what are known as "squish band engines". The squish band is an area of the cylinder head that provides space for high rpm rod growth that is often far too generous for optimal performance, but more importantly when the squish clearance is right you can eliminate detonation with a more even and properly timed burn. There are optimal squish clearances for all displacements and when you decrease factory squish to optimal by milling the base of the cylinder you also increase compression. Having the right squish also has the effect of increasing ignition timing by burning the end gases at ignition of the fuel/air charge rather than after the fact, which increases engine hp output.
Dropping the transfers into the base simply refers to making sure that you have an unobstructed flow from the base of the engine up through the transfer ports and into the combustion chamber. Pull the jug off most saws and you will see that the bottom of the transfers angle inward toward the center of the bore and go around the rim of the opening to the engine base. Since induction of the fuel/air charge in a two stroke is first into the crankcase, then through the transfers as the piston descends compressing what is in the base and forcing it out, you should be able to see the reason for dropping the transfers.
Chamfering the ports is basically deburring of sorts and adds to engine longevity. The idea is to bevel the cylinder lining of chrome or nicosil so that it won`t catch a ring and also to ensure that there is no obstruction to flow through the ports by a poor cylinder plating. This can be extreme in engines that use a sleeve.
As I said, this is an extreme simplification of the terms. Further discussion should probably be started in another thread. I don`t purport to know anything about engine building and suggest that anyone wanting to try should study up first, and then get ready to ruin a few parts.
Why all loggers don`t run modified saws is a question that noone can answer. I have a friend who is a full time logger who likes 066s and 395 Huskies. When I suggested that I could put him in saws for about $150 - $200 less than he pays from someone he has dealt with for many years, all he could say was "I don`t know, we`ve been buying from them for a long time". People are resistant to new ways of thinking, to each their own. BTW, production timberfallers have been using modified saws since the 70s but then what do they know about productivity or durability?
Russ
good explaination, russ 8)
now hand your report in and march directly to the principals office ;D
Quotegood explaination, russ 8)
now hand your report in and march directly to the principals office ;D
Thanks redpowerd, I prolly do deserve some sort of punishment for being such a windbag, just trying to get everyone on the same page.
Russ
LMFAO Russ! Never at a loss for words, I see. Good to know you haven't lost your vocabulary skills.
8) 8) 8) 8)
One minor point- There are guys who modify chainsaws for a living and they are very good at what they do. I do not even pretend to understand what Danny Henry does to an engine, but I trust his ability and skill enough to know that he will find and correct any defect in my chainsaw engine. Therefore when he sends me back my saw, it has no defects for which I might need warranty work. Danny has already found and corrected any defects. If my saw breaks, it's most likely from me screwing it up and not a warranty item anyway. I'm using a modified 346XP (46cc, 18" bar, 10 lbs) on a daily basis and it will keep up with a Stihl 044 (72cc, 16 lbs) on anything below 20" diameter. I've been running this saw for over 8 months now and it blows away anything remotely close to it's size. If it blew up tomorrow (highly unlikely to impossible), I'd buy another one without hesitation. Modified saws make me a lot more money than stock saws, are easier to use and run cooler.
Brian
Thanks for the kind words. Most of the people on this site never had a ported saw in there hands. They have no idea how a saw should run.
Shoot me an email and tell me what you did at the other place.
Later
Dan
We if it's any consolation I ordered a Walker muffler for my 066.
I really would love to modify my Stihl MS-180 to at least open up the muffler more, but the one thing I keep reading is that you should also richen the high speed mixture a little. Makes good sense, but the carburetor on this little gem has fixed jets on both idle and high speed. Guess I should be satisfied with only removing the spark arrestor screen. That alone increased the power, made it idle better and the top RPM went up considerably. All achieved by removing two nuts holding the cover on the muffler and lifting the cover off, taking the screen out and putting the cover back on tightly.
Hi Mini soda Boy,
I hope that your rpms didn`t increase too much, that`s a sign of leaner running as well as less restriction. I`m not familiar with the carb on the 180 but is it possible that it has a replaceable jet inside? You might also get away with fattening it up by opening the lo screw a little more or bending the metering lever a tiny bit. If you aren`t intimately familiar with what I`m talking about, I don`t want to encourage you to try any of this and risk damaging your saw. Can your dealer help you out?
Russ
The dealer just closed down. I'm not worried about the RPM's as it is, I just don't want to lean it out any more by letting it breathe better. I know what you mean about the metering lever, but I don't want to change that as it has to idle for long periods and that change might cause it to load up, which would defeat the purpose. It does what I bought it for and it does it quite well, so I think I best leave it as is. I just wanted to mention that just a minor thing like removing the slight obstruction of the spark arrestor (not needed, I use this almost exclusively when the ground is snow covered) can make a fairly big change in the performance of a rather small saw. By the way, when I said that is had no mixture screws, I meant none. The only adjustment is the idle speed.
Dont you just hate it when theres no adjusting screws on the carb? I have seen such models of carb on the FS75 and FC75 model trimmer and edger, and I DO NOT like not being able to adjust the mixture settings. But sine the MS180 is a homeowner type saw, I guess the reason for not having the screws is so that some guy that has no idea what hes doing doesnt touch the screws and ruin his saw. No offense to anyone who doesnt know how to tune carbs. I may send my saw to Dozerdan soon for some engine mods, As is my saw will match a stihl 044 in anything under 20" I just want more power from my saw.
russ, u bend that lever, u risk the saw with higher rpms?
Quoteruss, u bend that lever, u risk the saw with higher rpms?
Depends on which way you bend it. I was thinking that MB could bend it ever so slightly, and I mean a tiny bit up, which would richen the fuel/air thus decreasing unloaded rpm. Being bent up keeps the needle off the seat.
Russ
What happened at Eagle River ?
Well for a guy only running a alcohol saw the second time in his life < Cecil Star> and that was the first time he cut with it this year , i think he did very well , at least he didnot blow it up and it came home in one piece.
Cliff you should know that Cecil is just starting out and is scared of these saws and that is the way i want him to be plus his cold start is not much yet so he is giving up alot of time there, his cold start at Eagle River was 1.79 seconds so there is .8 or .9 of a second there a lone plus he does not know how much to push yet but give him this year to learn and we will see how he is doing
I just did my first modification: installed a Walker mufler on my 346xp. Immediately I noticed two things: more power and more torque at lesss rpm's . This saw runs really runs smoother and more consistent now. As Rocky said, if all you are worried about is mfg warranty, then just stay with what you get in the box. And for those who want to move up one or two sizes to avoid a little mod, just keep in mind that you will need to carry more pounds. My 346xp is only 10.6 lbs; not 12, not 13 . Bob.
If those stuffed up mufflers were so good for the saws, don't you think the saw manufacturers would sell them worldwide? Why do you think the USA gets 'special' mufflers with tiny outlets, and smaller carbs? It isn't to promote longer engine life, that's for DanG sure.
A modified saw is only as good as the service/follow up after the saw has been modified. In this arena Dan Henry is the man to deal with. I talk with Dan quite a bit and he has always found the time to answer any questions ( there are a lot of them ) that I may have. Dan is as standup as they come!!! ;)