He's offering 33% for ties, and 50% for grade. He says the sawmill pays out for both sides. They've been cutting in the area on several properties, and they wanted to cut here before they move on. Does this sound like a legitimate deal?
We have 37 acres, and I'm not interested in cutting all of it at this time. I wouldn't mind harvesting half of now, and maybe the other half down the road.
Deals around here are generally pretty informal, but I don't know if I should avoid this sort of thing or not.
I would check out his job,meaning the looks of the other lots. Is that how you would want yours to look? And ask the land owners if he does what he says he will,money wise too. I'm REAL fussy with my land.
I work in KY & would never offer that. I would either do 50/50 or 60/40 depending on wood. I would also let you know what you would getbon pulp ahead of time. What part of the state are you located in?
Tell him thanks, but no thanks. Your post is full of red flags. Do you, or would you, buy insurance from someone that shows up at your door and says that I want to sell you this while I'm in the neighborhood? ? Don't rush into anything. Do your homework. Get the services of a reputable professional forester. It will pay in the long run. My advice is don't even consider consider it
Good luck. And keep us posted.
Norm
Quote from: neckbeard on October 13, 2012, 10:58:17 AM
They've been cutting in the area on several properties, and they wanted to cut here before they move on. Does this sound like a legitimate deal?
That's a standard line that is overused. If you cannot be there to verify grades and volumes, you will not be happy in the end. And will you be able to find this guy when you are unhappy in the end?
Norm said it well too. Say no.
Check him out first, Not all guys are out to screw you! Sometimes you don't need to feed a forester on a small sale!! Not all loggers are crooks!
I don't know the logger, the terrain, or the quality of your timber. The percentage offerred is not uncommon for small loggers working on small tracts of average timber in many areas of the state. Cutting on shares can be a fair way to value small tracts and is very common practice in KY. Funny how quickly Foresters bad mouth loggers about cutting on "shares" but have no issues with consuting foresters working for a percentage of the sale price. The truth is many small woodlots would be more or less worthless without the small logger who cuts on percentage. Its hard to properly manage a few acres cost effectively unless you have the skills and desire to do it yourself. I would however not be in a rush, have a state forester evaluate and mark your timber prior to sale, and get more than one bid on the same trees; only sell marked tress unless its a clear-cut.
Quote from: Woodhauler on October 13, 2012, 11:59:05 AM
Check him out first, Not all guys are out to screw you! Sometimes you don't need to feed a forester on a small sale!! Not all loggers are crooks!
If you own 37 acres and that's all you own 37 acres is not a small sale to the landowner. It's everything. Certainly not all loggers are crooks. We all know that, but when it is your timber being cut, you only get one chance to find out if that one that is cutting yours is or isn't. This website came to be, because of a logger that was peaved because he didn't get a job, going back and telling the landowner that the logger that was on the job he lost, and brought in by a forester, was a timber thief. The logger being lied about, just happen to be the Michigan Association of Timbermen's logger of the year. Over hearing that conversation between the upset landowner and my boss letting him know that all was well that day, is what gave me the idea to go home and find out what I could find on-line. I typed in webcrawer "Michigan Timber Buyer" The only thing that came up back then in the last millennium, was that ticked off logger, who we KNEW was a timber thief. That was the day I decided to do something about it.
Jeff i totally understand, but in this world we live in everyone thinks everyone is out bto screw them! Some good old fashion background checking goes a long way! If you sell half the wood like he says he wants to , then pay a forester , he may bend up with a big disapointment on the money end. If he lives on the property and can keep a eye on things then i would say let a local logger in! Check him out first. Go to saw shops, parts stores and so on, ask if they know him and if he is a ok jobber. Call the state forestry service and ask them about him too!
Quote from: Kemper on October 13, 2012, 11:11:45 AM
I work in KY & would never offer that. I would either do 50/50 or 60/40 depending on wood. I would also let you know what you would getbon pulp ahead of time. What part of the state are you located in?
In McCreary county close to TN.
As an aside, I had a bit of a property line dispute with this logger when he was cutting in the adjacent property. I was in the wrong, and I could tell he was peeved at me. I'm not sure if I want to deal with someone that might have a grudge. Still, I understand he already has all his equipment in the area, so it's advantageous for him to cut here now.
I'm also not real happy with how the adjacent properties looked after being logged, but I really don't have anything to compare it to.
You don't need to compare it to anything else. Ask yourself is that what you want your woods to look like? I am a logger and would never cut on percentages and always recommend a forester who will be working for them not me. As everyone has said don't be in a hurry. Because he is in the area working it is only to his advantage not yours to cut your timber now.
Be careful, I almost would wait, and find a small logger that will go halves,
As already said it is only in the loggers best interest to be able to do the job now while in the area. I suspect your trees are not going away anytime soon. If you are to hire any logger be prepared to do your homework on his past practices. Don't necessarily only take names of references that he gives you. Check around and visit other jobs done by whatever logger you may want to work with.
Many reputable loggers are very able to do a quality job without the input of a forester but the landowner should educate themselves on best forestry practices if they are not hiring the services of an independant third party supervisor.
Quote from: Ken on October 13, 2012, 02:31:42 PM
As already said it is only in the loggers best interest to be able to do the job now while in the area. I suspect your trees are not going away anytime soon. If you are to hire any logger be prepared to do your homework on his past practices. Don't necessarily only take names of references that he gives you. Check around and visit other jobs done by whatever logger you may want to work with.
Many reputable loggers are very able to do a quality job without the input of a forester but the landowner should educate themselves on best forestry practices if they are not hiring the services of an independant third party supervisor.
Very well said Ken!
The good news is, now you know there is enough timber on your property to interest a logger. The bad news is- you still don't know what it's worth, or could potentially be worth a few years down the road.
If his plan is to cut everything that's worth cutting and leave the crap, that's not in your long term best interest.
You and I, as landowners, are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to timber sales. We don't do it very often, and have to live with any mistakes for a long time. Since this is your first rodeo, get a management plan first. Then generate a cutting plan, based on your objectives. Not what's convenient to a logger that happens to be in the area at the time.
Shows how much I know, but number-wise, I would have thought his percentages were quite generous, in this economy, and for such a small lot. Half of 37 acres isn't worth the time of many loggers, and with mill prices so low, who would want to to cut for any less than 50% of the good stuff, and 67% of the bad stuff? I wouldn't log even for those numbers, in this log market.
I have offered someone 33% of the sawlogs, and 10% of the pulp, for small lots. No takers, so far, but I'm also not needing to do it that badly. Usually people pay us to take trees away.
Ask him who he's logged for in your neighborhood and go talk to them. I do 60/40 for sawlogs and veneer after trucking expenses. Sixty to me. Seventy/thirty on 100" sawbolts also after trucking and $10 a cord for hardwood and aspen pulp. Basswood pays 8.
If he was in the area he should probably give a little sweeter deal on the ties, but the grade saw logs 50% is pretty good with timber prices in the pooper. Just make sure he's not going to try and charge you for equipment delivery... unless its spread around to the other property as well. As far as the land looking bad after logging, a bit of scarring is going to happen. What you want to look at is brush everywhere (tops and branches) they should be in stacks or clumps, excessive rutting along skid roads, a little will happen but they should fill them in so there is no standing water,(a skid road should look like an old timey wagon trail made by huge tires), if they are thinning look for spots along skid roads where bark has been peeled from the standing trees this should be kept to a minimum...although it does happen and is unavoidable sometimes it shouldn't be every tree, see if they left any trees hanging in other trees this is just bad and dangerous, they should fix this problem before they move on to another job (personally I fix that before anything else is done). So in other words the land will be scarred and a little messy but you should have healthy trees left over and be able to walk around your property without falling into a tiger trap of brush or drowing in a swamp made by skidder tires.
All that being said, door to door timber buyers make me nervous, not that they are crooked its just that they seem more likely to be crooked
Don't you want the brush spread out evenly across the property, so it will rot down and fertilize the land evenly?
Its a fire danger thing, piles only burn in one place while spread out burns everywhere, and can light anywhere. Seems that they rot about the same in piles or spread out... maybe this is one of those east coast west coast things? They do a bunch more chipping/grinding of the slash around here anyway so there really isn't a whole lot of slash left over, except when us gypo's are through with it grinders and chippers are spendy, torches and a few gallons of diesel are still pretty cheap(although sort of against the "law" now around here)
I prefer dispersed brush myself , where the tree fell, and it's gone within 10 years. Logging isn't parkland, but it's not about trashing the place either. One of the reasons I hate brush piles is it's porcupine houses. ;) If your in white cedar ground and it's left in piles it will be there a very long time.
Unfortunately, my experience as a small time logger is that not many landowners want to take the time to properly educate themselves about timber managment. They only want to take the "trees that are worth something," and when you try to explain timber stand improvement or management, the deer in the headlights look, or other responses like "I appreciate all the different trees" Little do they relize, that when you continue to cut good oak/hickory, you are leaving more sasafrass, dogwood, maple to take their place if you are not careful. It is certainly a challange to keep the landowner happy and encourage responsible forestry. It is discouraging at times. People don't mind putting fertilizer on the farm field, or dry dams to prevent erosion, but they have a hard time spending money on the woodlot. I am glad to see this forum has individuals that are generally interested in forestry and the long term management of the forest.
I charge 18 to 20 cents a board foot for small lots close to home, more if the job is far away, or their is extra work in creating a landing/building a road. This includes trucking of non-grade logs (pallet / mat logs) to the nearest mill/best market. Grade and veneer buyers write a check at the landing and pick up with their trucks.
Anything over 20 cents a board foot goes to the landowner with a copy of the mill slip and copy of the mill check. This arrangement works out from anywhere to 30% to 40% me on good timber with lots of veneer/grade logs to 70-75% me on poor timber with very few grade logs. I pay $3 ton for pulpwood to landowner. I figure it cost me the same to drag a poor log out of the woods as it does a good log.
That's another thing is roads and crossings. Some owners don't figure this in with taking those trees. Now granted some loggers can build some quick roads, more like ditches and some fellas will built proper roads to. Personally I don't like dozed roads because they mostly are a big ditch with the soil scalped off and pushed to the sides like a channel and nowhere for the water to drain off. Usually leaves piles of mud in berms all along the road with trees shoved over into surrounding trees. A real mess. Not allowed on public land.
Logger choice in management often doesn't end up well. What's the incentive to cut out low quality wood? Get someone impartial to mark the timber, then have a lump sum sale, payable in advance. You're taking on a lot of risk in this arrangement without a bigger payday.
From the way people are talking it sounds like the value of timber isn't high enough at the moment to warrant cutting now anyway. If that's the case I'll just tell him no.
By the way, I admittedly haven't done a lot of this sort of business in my day. Should I be negotiating the shares? If so where should I be trying to work towards?
I am very familiar with McCreary county, most likely know the logger, and probably will end up with at least some of the logs if the tract is logged so I can't give impartial advice but I will add some context to the discussion. Logging conditions can vary from easy on top of the plateau to economically impossible in some of the gorge areas due to cliffs, rock houses, and federal lands. Particularly on small tracts the only feasable access to portions of one tract may be across one or more adjoining parcels. May or may not apply here but changes in ownership of an adjoining parcel or the relationship of the logger with or to the neighbors can be a very big deal. There are probably more miles of abandoned "old county roads" than there are maintained ones and many of them cross the forest service, park service, corps of engineers, or private owners who dispute the road status. The point being I have seen more than one instance where if a neighbor is cutting timber that opens access to an adjoining tract it's certainly something to consider. If some of those factors apply "while the logger is in the area" could very well be as much or more of a benefit to the landowner than the logger.
Quote from: stavebuyer on October 14, 2012, 05:51:38 AM
The point being I have seen more than one instance where if a neighbor is cutting timber that opens access to an adjoining tract it's certainly something to consider. If some of those factors apply "while the logger is in the area" could very well be as much or more of a benefit to the landowner than the logger.
That is a good point. It is not just access to land locked lots either. I have a section of woods I can't get to without crossing my neighbors land because it is down over a vertical ledge. We have a deal. When he cuts his I can go in and do mine.
Doing it on a percentage, I would want to know what mills it will be sold to and then check the loggers reputation with that mill. splitwood_smiley
I hate to say this, but I would be very careful about going with a deal based on the advice of a mill. There are crooked loggers, and also crooked mills. Not saying your logger or the mill he sells to is. But they can get in cahoots easily.
If you don't have to sell at this time, I wouldn't. Its not that hard to move a skidder. Depending on what your interests are, I would educate yourself about timberstand improvement. If for no other reason, than there are crooked foresters too. Or really bad ones. Got involved with one of those myself. My guess is your state forestry service puts on field days that explains a lot. I don't see the prices getting worse than they are now. Simple things like knowing how to scale a log if you go on shares, which personally I would not recommend. Again, if you don't feel the need to sell, you have an asset sitting there. Take your time and learn enough that you feel comfortable. You might as well get all you can out of that asset.
Home work time.
First contact the Kentucky Division of Forestry. I understand that they will assess and mark up to 50 acres for free. They may also have some insight to your logger. The Ky Division of Forestry web site has a resources section that if you scroll down you will find a pdf file called "Growing Gold". At the end of this file you will find the average price paid in you area for logs by species and grade.
The Kentucky Master Logger web site (http://dept.ca.uky.edu/masterlogger/index.php) maintains a list by county of all certified loggers. They also keep a list of loggers that, for what ever reason, are considered as bad actors.
I cut in western Kentucky. Mainly smaller tracts, and all on shares. Normally 50/50, but have gone up to 60/40 if there is a high percentage of white oak stave or vaneer. The mill measures, grades the logs, and writes separate checks for the land owner and me. I attach copies of the scale sheets when I hand the land owner his check. When the job is complete I will give him a spread sheet listing all transactions, and any agreed improvements made to his property. Most of the other loggers I've dealt with are honest, hard working people, but that's not always the case. The good thing is that very few of them are still in business. Contact the forester first. He'll have a lot of information for you.
wow there is alot here. First in this area there is no percentage if u don't have cash up front u don't buy timber.With some references there is some great loggers around with forestry experience . Unfortunately there is alot of guys that buy a chainsaw and call themselves a logger.foresters can also b great but most around here work on a percentage too so if u don't have much timber value they wont bother in that case a good logger may b ur bets bet. Any way u should educate yourself enough to make the best decision for u . ur trees won't devalue standing.Take ur time!
As stated by others, seek out the services of a professional forester to help determine the best management prescription and practices to meet the desired objectives that you have for your property. This should be done before any timber harvest contract is agreed to.
If any of you know a really good forester in western KY that doesn't mind dealing with small lots, my parents have about 15 acres of hardwoods that they might use some help with. My dad had one forester come who said to leave it all for ten years and then clearcut it. My dad does not want to clearcut it, but improve, select cut, and manage it over time. He was mad that shortly after the forester said that, a huge healthy red oak blew down in the wind. He says he could lose a lot of good timber in ten years.
PM me if you have any good personal recommendations.
Just a natural part of the stand dynamics. The forester can't predict that your dad's woods might have a forest fire come through either. When a forester visits your land and does a plan, that is just a snapshot in time and everything after that being discussed is past tense because 5 years from then things are different, in fact the next day to. ;)
Stand dynamics is actually a course in college that looks at different stands and how they change with age, competition and environment (bugs, fire, weather events, logging). ;) It's just one of those tools to make forecasts and models.
In this area percentage is more common than any other way. with a forester he takes his percentage you loose. bid sale mills only pay for grade. you loose.A good logger alone will make you the most money.manage the stand the way you want. You pay the taxes.The problem is trust. People think you cant trust loggers you can only trust a forester.thats not true and will never be true.There are crooked people in all aspects of life.
QuotePeople think you cant trust loggers you can only trust a forester
That has never been said here. Never, not once. Let me guess. You are a logger.
And some folks think that you can trust all loggers. That isn't true and never will be true. All it takes is one dishonest forester, or logger. That's why you need to do your own homework. And I'll keep saying that whenever I get the chance. I know that I'm biased, but if someone shows up at my door, they have to overcome quite a bit before I'll trust them. Check them all out before you trust them to do your work. And then make sure that you get a contract. You might want to have your attorney check the contract over before you give them the go ahead.
You can't trust anyone any more, even politicians. :D
Norm
Quote from: Shotgun on October 15, 2012, 04:59:21 PM
You might want to have your attorney check the contract over before you give them the go ahead.
Sheesh, talk about a profession that's held in low esteem. :)
There is a built in conflict between loggers and landowners. The logger needs to extract the most value at the least cost, and the landowner (usually) is concerned with what condition the property is left in. That's not always true, the developer who owns the property next to mine had his place logged last year, and he was looking for a quick buck. I think he raped the place, but his decision was valid for his point of view. He's looking at the next interest payment, and we're looking at the next generation. Both views have merit.
neckbeard, you spoke of selling enough timber to finance building a pond. As far as management plans go, nothing wrong with that. Will you net out enough from this sale to achieve that?
I think it all depends on how long a forrester has been in the timber. As a tool maker, I have seen many engineers, but sadly they have not been on the floor, even cut a chip. There are so many good loggers, that have been there and done that. Good communication is the key factor, as it is with anything. It is a sad thing when books take presedence over experience. But equally when one that does not know is taken by one that should know. One should be careful, not paranoid, informed, not emotional.
I'm just like Shotgun. I had my place logged,I walked the lots this logger cut I think for 20 years. Always very critical as I always am. I needed a contractor to do the digging for the house. I might of paid a little more but saw some other places and homes that the "cheaper" guys had done. ::) Not impressed. I always tell people when you get a logger if he says I can be there in a month tell him not to bother. I have to wait a year for my logger. He is very busy. We have our dogs groomed. Usually it's a 2 week wait. Which is fine. She is busy because people like the job she does. I'm a hard man and I don't want a bad job done,no matter what I'm having done. I always check past jobs. I looked for a sawmill and I would see one on someone land and I would stop and talk to them, I did my OWB the same way.
Can I ask, why any landowner would sell into this market.
That's a pretty easy question. Haven't you ever been broke?
Even broke, it would be tough watching a load of logs, that take a lifetime to grow, leave your place, knowing there might be a hundred dollar bill on the other end. To answer your question, I've been broker than most.
It would be even tougher to watch an estate auction on my land.
First I am a logger. second i never said the people here dont trust loggers. It was meant a generlization of public trust and belief.third I cant see where the market is that bad. I just did a job cut 38 trees and made the land owner 5000.00 I dont think thats to bad.If the market was that bad knowone would be selling there timber.
QuoteCan I ask, why any landowner would sell into this market.
Things can always get worse,trees rot, released crop trees can then flourish. This is why I cut what needs to be cut every year; as long as I am healthy and conditions permit. I should say that I don't cut everything that could be cut every year. I have +-300 acres of my farm that are managed forest stands. I cut approx 20- 30 acres a year as part of an overall uneven age stand management plan. I try to work around markets as much as makes sense and each stand is different in terms of maturity.
Agreed thecfarm. Ga jones, around here its 265 for white fir, 280-310 larch and doug fir. What does it cost to put the logs to the mill, 40 miles away, average ground, three to four thousand feet on a truck? I hear 250-260, so that doesn't leave much.
sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.
There are good loggers, and there are bad/dishonest loggers. There are good foresters, and there are bad/dishonest foresters. There are good plumbers, and there are bad/dishonest plumbers. My bet is that the percentage of scumballs in just about any profession is about the same.
If the OP was experienced in this sort of thing, able to ask the right questions and do thorough reference checks, he just might be able to find himself a good logger and deal with him directly successfully. My impression is that he is not in a position to be able to do this, so going it alone is a gamble. He may find a good logger, but he doesn't really have the information & experience to judge whether who he has found is good or not.
Of course, he may also have the same problem knowing when he's found a good forester...
Quote from: ga jones on October 16, 2012, 10:00:35 PM
sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.
ga jones
What are you calling sapwood? Is it a grouping of species?
Quote from: ga jones on October 16, 2012, 10:00:35 PM
sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.
By sapwood, do you mean softwood, or conifers? This is the first time I've heard them referred to this way, I think.
Secondly, it sounds like your market is way better than ours. I can't sell white pine for more than $200/1000, yellow pine for more than $180/1000, hemlock would be considered pallet regardless of quality, red maple (our primary kind here) is $225, tulip poplar is $250, red and white oak, and ash, are $300, and everything else except maybe cedar and walnut, is considered pallet regardless of condition, and brings $175 / thousand, even cherry. So if we had your prices, we could maybe make a living logging around here. Darn tootin. As it is, I think most loggers here are having to decide between buying food, or buying chewing tobacco. ;D
I think he means white woods. However he is only going on local experience. Hard maple and yellow birch logs and veneer are worth a lot more than what he's been getting. With the marketing boards here helping woodlot owners I've seen TT loads of veneer maple get a landowner $3000 or $4000 a load and more if he's the logger. Now the market is very soft right now and I don't know if you could move veneer hardwoods to be honest and log prices like he is quoting is what we get from low quality red maple logs, basically pulp price for ties. Some one is making money somewhere in the chain because most all our products go to the US. ;)
All the commercial mills sawing around the clock and year round up here saw softwoods. Hardwood mills are run like a regular 40 hr day job and not in winter and a trickle compared to softwood sawing. Our forest is 60 % hardwood.
When selling by the truckload or by portions, you put your faith in the logger being honest, and the best judge in how to buck logs. You also think his marketing skills are very good. That may be true, but its the risk you take.
Lump sum sales take that risk off the landowner and put it on the logger. In a bidding situation, the logger or mill with the best marketing, logging and bucking skills will buy the timber for the highest price. Paid in advance, and there is no problem with honesty. Risk is limited.
I'm still jealous of those prices. Trying to find a veneer buyer around here is kind of like looking for live dinosaurs.
That being said, If the deal is to go percentages, then its in the loggers best interest to buck and market to the best of his ability. The better a load is at the scale house the better he gets paid. There are pro's and con's to both methods, the one that bothers me is the guy's that say they will buy your wood outright, no forester involved, so the landowner has no clue as to whats really going on. If the logger is making the purchase price with no other competition, then he can bid as low as he feels he can get away with' and sell for as high as possible. The chance for crookedness is huge
Quote from: thenorthman on October 17, 2012, 09:47:45 AM
, the one that bothers me is the guy's that say they will buy your wood outright, no forester involved, so the landowner has no clue as to whats really going on. If the logger is making the purchase price with no other competition, then he can bid as low as he feels he can get away with' and sell for as high as possible. The chance for crookedness is huge
That is a huge gross generalization you are making there. I prefer to buy my timber with just the landowner and myself being involved. Getting a chance to walk with the landowner and talk about what he wants done to his property is very important to me. I mark every tree that will be harvest, break down species and footage. They then can run numbers themselves off the Illinois DNR website for timber prices. In fact I encourage it we are always on the high end if not more. Your statement that we can the see how cheap we can get it is how not to buy timber. Treat people fair and honest. I have walked many of woods with State Forester marking timber together we bounce ideas and experiences off each other, makes us both better. Most private foresters in my state give me the impression they are in it for the check and that is all. Just finished a private forester sale, He never showed up once! I have cut many private forester sales can count the number of jobs they showed up on, on one hand. So who is giving the landowner more attention. The guy who buys it out right with fair money and is there every day talking with the landowner asking him if he sees anything we need to change or do. Or someone who has invested a can of paint and is never there watching he harvest? Don't lump us all together is all I ask.
by sap wood i mean pine hemlock spruce. soft wood is aspen cucumber . my hardwoods are oaks maple cherry walnut hickory birch poplar bass. The veneer market on red oak is 1300 mbf cherry is a little higher I usualy have 3 or 4 veneers a load.I cut small tracts so Im not moving whole loads of veneer. MIxed loads from veneer to grade 1. average 500 mbf.across the board.My log buyer buys veneer through grade 1.The majority of my loads are prime to grade 1 with a few veneers.
That is some odd local terminology there. Technically sapwood is the part of living wood where sap flows, as different from the heartwood, where it doesn't. And Aspen, Aspen is a hardwood. Cucumber, up here it is a vegetable. We don't have it. The pines Hemlock and the Spruces are all softwoods.
If sticky sap oozes out of the logs its sap wood.aspen is useless for anything but pallets and pulp. we cant even sell it to firewood buyers. It has to be seperated for the mills we cant mix it with other woods.20 bucks a ton
A lot of veneer loads up here are full of wood from many woodlot owners. The marketing board staff bucked all the logs for most woodlot owner and loggers if they want it, for a fee. The wood was gathered from the various sites and brought to a central yard. The buyers came and scaled, wrote out a check, then the marketing board paid everyone on their scale. Logs had been marked to separate one owner from another. Owner or logger often on site. When the wood left here, it was mill property. As far as I know those markets dried up since 2005. The buyers were all from the US except maybe one. They went all over the Maritimes and Quebec for hardwood.
Local terms as follows. sap wood = anything sticky. poll wood= firewood, pulp. Pulp=any sap wood you cant make saw logs out of. Pallet= any hardwood you cant make a clean saw log out of. Sawlog clean on 3 faces 12 inch on the small end and up. big fattys=over 2 foot dbh hardwoods. low grade=pallet,pulp. shaken ash=Quaken aspen .spruce,fir scotch pine=christmas trees.REAL BIG FATTYS=30 to 40 inch dbh (the mills wont take em any bigger)That stand is stacked=all big fattys.
The mills here buy saw logs on scribner and veneer on doyle. they number the veneer logs seperatly and resell them.There is a baseball bat plant here that buys ash and they scale doyle.Other than that its scribner. tonage on pallet and pulp.
Your aspen markets are clearly different than what ours are and terms are certainly not what industry definitions would be.
Quote from: ga jones on October 17, 2012, 08:36:00 PM
Local terms as follows. sap wood = anything sticky. poll wood= firewood, pulp. Pulp=any sap wood you cant make saw logs out of. Pallet= any hardwood you cant make a clean saw log out of. Sawlog clean on 3 faces 12 inch on the small end and up. big fattys=over 2 foot dbh hardwoods. low grade=pallet,pulp. shaken ash=Quaken aspen .spruce,fir scotch pine=christmas trees.REAL BIG FATTYS=30 to 40 inch dbh (the mills wont take em any bigger)That stand is stacked=all big fattys.
Is this local slang? do you market your own logs or contract to a mill?
local slang...I market my own timber.There are about 10 Hardwood mills to choose from I use 2. I have other logger friends we compare pricing back and forth to see what the other mills are doing.
Are you guys selling hardwood logs "straight though"(one price per species over a certain dia) or do the mills have different "grades" of logs.
So, how about having a log buyer come directly to the site to scale. This is common practice in our area. The landowner can be present to ensure that the logger is on the up &up. At the end the buyer gives a reciept with his tally, then takes care of the trucking. They will tag veneer and sometimes pay on the spot.
Logs and veneer up here is scaled NB Rule or Bangor Rule, which is quite similar to International. If the veneer or logs go to a NB mill it's NB log rule or tonnage and cords because the Scalers Act as far as I know doesn't allow for all those log rules. It just makes confusion, maybe that's the intend. Of course that's just an opinion. :D If they scaled Doyle up here, they would not get any wood because the piece size is smaller. Veneer here can start at 11 inches, but the better price is 14" +. At 14" + Doyle scale doesn't do too bad though.
Logs here have different grades going by clear faces, sweep, diameter. Yellow birch and hard maple always flip flop on price. Sometime hard maple is more then yellow birch is more. I suppose it depends on supply. We also have had a white birch veneer market because our white birch can get big. Just throw out the belief they only live as long as aspen. They'll live way longer. ;)
veneer here starts at 14 inch. different price for species and grade.I sell on the landing.
I have yet to see sticky sap come out of a hemlock
Quote from: 240b on October 17, 2012, 09:09:10 PM
Are you guys selling hardwood logs "straight though"(one price per species over a certain dia) or do the mills have different "grades" of logs.
Around here all sawlog are graded and scaled. There is a price per BDFT for the different species by grade.
Its slang............... ;D
Here, the only hardwood mill nearby worth mentioning, in terms of regular log buying from the public, pays straight-through prices for all species, except that there can be pallet logs from any species if they have too many big knots, too small diameter, or too much sweep or twist.
Round here its get a contract with the mill or hope they are buying when your logs get there... mostly scribner scale, one or two use doyle, and still looking for a peeler log buyer
I think that is a very fair price. Small woolots are hard to recoup expenses ( trucking the equipment in). I live in red oak country. And a red oak select sawlog that paid 600 per thousand 20 yrs ago pays 375 now. And 80$ a thousand goes to trucking. But the price of tires,fuel and everything else didn't go down. It's hard to make 50 percent work on a mainly sawlog small woodlot. Most of my profit comes from the firewood.
Its slang in his area. Those slang terms haven't filtered down into my area, and I'm about 75 miles south.
Sawlogs in our area can have up to 6 grades. Veneer, prime, select, #2, #3 and tie. Polewood and pulp go to the same markets, and can have wood that is full of defect, like rot. Depending on species, some makes it to the firewood market. We also have chickenwood, which goes for shavings to chicken farms. They only use softwoods.
ga jones, does the ga in your name stand for Georgia?
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 18, 2012, 10:03:00 AM
Its slang in his area. Those slang terms haven't filtered down into my area, and I'm about 75 miles south.
Sawlogs in our area can have up to 6 grades. Veneer, prime, select, #2, #3 and tie. Polewood and pulp go to the same markets, and can have wood that is full of defect, like rot. Depending on species, some makes it to the firewood market. We also have chickenwood, which goes for shavings to chicken farms. They only use softwoods.
That how things are at home, we do have schoolwood though.(makes biomass chips for small heating systems which the schools have.........)
no Jeff. why do you ask?
Ron We have a shavings mill here it goes to gas pads to soak up fracking fluids. also have the same grades however below grade 2 it pays me better to send to the pallet mill. One of my pulp mills is around york your probably familar with it.
Just wondering.
I have enjoyed reading this cause of the various inputs
Have known afew loggers and imo I think one was actually to fair and was cheating Himself good thing he had other income
he didn't make big messes and later he came back and actually drug the biggest tops out no extra cost so they could be cut for fire wood By the land owners son (who thought he would get rich selling firewood)
Met two or three that were fair one I recommended to several folks
Know two who are robbers have saw them hauling loads on the sneak and everything they cut they say is pulp but I also see that as the land owners problem,you don't turn some one loose on your property when you live miles away and you don't know them
Good reading, as 1woodguy said.
Couple years ago, the same logger working under a contract set up by a forester for the landowner went to the farmer/landowner of adjacent property and made the "while I'm in the area, I'll give you $12,000 for the usable logs I can see on your land". It was $12k that the farmer bit on, as he had no plan for his timber. The logger was as meticulous as possible on the first landowners contract, but left devastation on the second. He left downed trees, leaning trees, and tops just wherever they fell.
The second job was easy for the logger and the farmer was happy. The first landowner and his forester were a bit shocked at the sight and condition their logger left.
It may be just acting accordingly for the surroundings one is in.... akin to behaving one way in a courtroom vs. being in a rowdy bar.
As long as nobody's hurt, and everyone's happy with their results. People have got to get over expecting everyone else to feel exactly the same way they do about things.
Nobody is ever going to feel or believe exactly the way I feel about everything, so I've kind of gotten used to that.
So I fully understand that one property owner may want to ask a logger to make their land look like a park, and another property owner just wants the maximum amount of money in the shortest amount of time, with no thought to the future, because they personally need money right now. Neither idea is wrong in my opinion. We all have the freedom to choose what is most important to us.
A landowner looking for the most money with no thought of the future, and a logger that doesn't care, is a resipe for disaster. They might both be happy with the quick buck, but the land might not be so happy. Any land will heal its self over time, but as stewards of the land, we have a responsibility to do the best we can.
It's not always about the "needs", a lot of it is the "wants". In which case, if their bank account is empty their woods will soon be and shortly there after back to square one. Then the next thing you hear is about how the woods looked in the past before the devastation and high grading. Now, up here if a piece is aspen, fir, red maple that's what your going to get coming back. If it's sugar maple-ash-yellow birch forest with maple dominating, it could convert to fir ground, could be a meadow of raspberries for years, couple be aspen, birch and pin cherry or be converted to yellow birch from being predominantly sugar maple before or back to sugar maple. Without proper planning, I guess take your chances. You may not like the results, maybe don't care. That mix of hardwood species does not sucker unless there are young stems. Our hardwoods are even-aged.
What I mean is, I am responsible to manage my own property (or any I might be paid to manage), but I don't have a right to tell anyone else how to manage theirs. I can suggest things, but it's their decision. If someone wants to be foolish with their property, it's still their property. We can say it's unfortunate, but they should still have the freedom to make their own choices. As long as no one else's rights are harmed.
In Sweden forests, private and public, are managed for the common good. They remember the past when their forests were not taken care of and about wiped out. We may not be there, but it's good to know not everyone views the forest the same or it might well head that way. It does seem though that forest and farm gets pushed up to make room for development. I suppose you can only stack people so high in housing, but it's not there yet either. Everyone wants piece of land not just living quarters, but they also chase the dollar. They give up the farm to the developer for a buck, they cut wood for a buck. ;) I use to do management plans and it wasn't long after they received it that the woods were up for the highest bids. I stopped doing plans.
In the early 90's around here the export market exploded and Douglas Fir went up to $1800 per 1k (number get fuzzy but their close), In turn everyone that could logged their property, cause at the time no DNR or FS timber could leave the country (because of an owl that's not native or ever been in large numbers here)
anyway flash forward 20 years, most of that private land was never replanted (dnr has allot to blame for this) so the native hardwoods took over, big leaf maple ($250 per 1k ish) cotton wood ($130 if your lucky) and alder ($600+), of the three alder is the only one worth logging using locale methods (long logs), maple is rarely straight enough to get a 20' log, cotton wood is straight and gets huge fast, but not worth the trucking and fuel to haul to the mill, Alder once it gets to a size that a guy could start making money off it tends to keel over dead, most land owners don't understand this and it all gets turned into fire wood. So now that my run on sentence has confused everyone... What we are left with is a bunch of worthless timber and some scrubby hemlock or sitka spruce that can grow in the shade, but is about a quarter the size it should be, because no one thought ahead long enough to realize the impact of logging everything of value. I have been asked to log property like this and all thats left is a mixed load of wolf tree cedar, a few wind scarred hemlocks and the usual cotton woods.
So yes in my opinion taking care of and stewarding the land is necessary, even if its just dead reckoning. Part of the (most) blame sits with our state dnr for not letting people replant, it involves a different more expensive permit and reclassifying as commercial forest which means more expensive taxes, the public is generally scared of not paying taxes, not to mention a vague state law that claims the state owns your timber, so very little private land gets replanted (I'm not talking about the corporate land like weyco, sierra pa, etc they can afford the taxes). So in the end what we have is a septic load of land ready to be developed into strip malls and tract housing, cause its not worth anything else.
Ok rant over.. :-X
state claims to "own" timber on private land in washington? Tell us more. another wacky western state.. mineral,water,rangeland,timber seems as everyone but the guy paying the bill has a right to the land out here..
I really hope to have a nice-sized chunk of land some day that I can manage wisely. I'd like to care for it and work it and get it to grow good stuff. I'd like to have over 100 species of trees planted on it, and care for them all. (or hire someone to do much of it). But we'll see if that ever develops.
I'd love to have a land where I could concentrate on the "big ten" as I call them. Sugar maple, red oak, white oak, black cherry, black walnut, tulip poplar, eastern red cedar, eastern white pine, baldcypress, and hickory. Along with working the other 100 or so species in, too. Even sweetgum has its place. . . .
Personally, I think its a matter of ethics. When I mark timber, I do what is right for the land. I keep the landowner's wishes in mind, but that doesn't mean the land has to be devastated by poor logging techniques or poor management techniques.
The neighbor had someone log out his land with the dollar factor in his head. It is a small tract. They took out large ash, left the pin oak and hickory. A lot of that died, thanks to the soil compaction. Its come back in multiflora rose. He asked me when he could expect to see the land come back. I told him not in his lifetime. Its been 20 years since that's been cut, and there still are no trees coming in on that tract. No saplings, nothing. The money has long been spent, and the land is fallow. The logger knew better, the landowner didn't.
If you want to crow about being a professional, then you have to act like one. You know, do the right thing even when no one's looking. You don't prey on someone's ignorance just to make a buck. Just my opinion.
A forester should always give the land owner the best advice he knows, and also look out for the land-owner's best interests in every way possible, whether the land owner understands it or not. The logger should too, but is likely under less motivation to do so. At the end of the day, it is still the property owner's choice.
A forester or logger can refuse to do a job if the methods or results violate their conscience or principles. This is true with any profession.
I am in favor of wise land management, but I am not in favor of forcing wise land management of private property.
Just like I am in favor of people not smoking, but I do not want to ban tobacco. However, in my own house, I definitely ban tobacco.
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 20, 2012, 04:51:38 PM
. You know, do the right thing even when no one's looking.Quote from: Okrafarmer on October 20, 2012, 05:05:39 PM
.
A forester or logger can refuse to do a job if the methods or results violate their conscience or principles. This is true with any profession.
These are two very good points in my opinion.
landowners have the right to do with There land what they please.thats part of freedom in this country. opinions are free too.foresters, loggers can make sugestions and can the government.But in the end they will do what they want. And thats how it SHOULD be.
Here in the northeast we are getting away from lopping the tops too low. Of course you can't leave them 8 foot in the air either. The US forest service says(and I agree) that the tops left up around 3 feet make a nice barrier for the seeds to come up to saplings before the deer graze them off. And pulling the whole top out just destroys alot of residual growth along the skid road. Everybody has different agenda's. I looked at a wood lot years ago that was a very nice young ash stand. All around 14" and tall. I told the landowner it would be a nice lot in about 8 to 10 years. The next week he had a different logger in there cutting the small wood. Everybody has an agenda
In New York, those trees probably wouldn't have been alive in ten years anyway, the way EAB is moving. So far, EAB seems to be far away from where I live, and our ash trees seem relatively safe. But ash is a very minor product around here.
fourteen inches is a small sawlog. Every additional healthy year would have increased the profitability of the stand, to be sure.
But the broader point is, you can try to talk sense into people, but you can't make it stick.
Is it an ethical issue for a logger to clearcut a nice stand of timber if that's what the landowner wants? If a landowner has a block of sugar maple that could be sustainably logged for generations, and they want it clearcut, should it bother my concience? I know it would be a shame to see it go, but hey, im a contracter and that's what they want. Of course you would tell them about rotation management and how it would pay them every 12 to 15 yrs. once it is gone, they will never see it again.
You just have to make that call on an individual basis. We can't make the call for each other.
Basically, if I were faced with that decision, 1270, I'd do what you said. I would recommend that they do it sustainably with selective cutting, but if they insisted they wanted to sell it all, who am I to argue with getting some great logs?
Don't remember specifics... but if and when you have your private land logged in Warshington your supposed to pay a "stumpage" tax to the state, they bureaucrats say that money goes to the schools, it don't, (to angry to state who really gets the money without getting another warning...). Your also supposed to get a permit for cutting more than 5k board feet off your property and it can only be used on your property (it can't leave), unless you have a permit the likes of which are not cheap (300-2000 depending on if the county gets involved some times a Hel of allot More). Their is an even bigger headache if you have any kind of damp ground...which is open to interpretation depending on which state/county/federal forester you are saddled with (and they like to move em around). This is all just to get a simple permit to clear a few trees, its worse if you want to convert the land to a "working forest" whatever that's supposed to mean? And to top this all of the "tribes" want a piece of the pie if you're anywhere near a creek or river, its worse if they even think that salmon might have once passed through your land... All in all most times it not worth the hassle for a few loads that might gross $6k the truck takes about 600, the equipment takes 2000 (moved in moved out maintainence and fuel) the home owner gets say 40% after trucking which equals $2160ish, that leaves the logger with about $1140 for a little over a weeks work, without paying for permits and water shed inspections and "special use" fees.
but then most times the permits aren't fully clarified or just plain forgot... DNR is never notified, The county thinks you'r cutting "danger trees", the coppers don't care, and the neighbors look the other way because they are broke too and will probably go the same route when they log, but if you get caught, oh man that's a very healthy fine,
Besides the state DNR is supposed to be self sufficient, through state timber sales, mining, water, Their not, and there a long way from getting there, they keep gating off public roads for lack of funds, and selling off state timber land (that's been cut over and is now worthless) mining costs to much (because of permits) and very few people pay for water (the cities run their own systems). But they always have brand spank'n new trucks, they are all very well paid, and the schools still ask for a levy nearly every year (the school near me has something like an $50,000,000 yearly budget and only around 2500 students k-12) oh yeah and now you'r supposed to buy an all access pass to drive on roads that my taxes already paid for, not to mention the tabs and registration fees, can't forget that sales tax and fuel tax! I may not be very accurate on some of these numbers but they should be close.
northman, I feel your pain. It's not nearly that bad in Maine, but those are the kinds of reasons I don't live there anymore. South Carolina's getting worse, too, but there's still some freedom to be found here if you look hard enough.
Okrafarmer,now if I could convice about 40,000 more people like that.
Quote from: thecfarm on October 20, 2012, 10:34:41 PM
Okrafarmer,now if I could convice about 40,000 more people like that.
;D
It's sad, but they say Maine's greatest export is its youth. :-\
Ayup.
But, the logger is coming to the landowner with the offer. It isn't the landowner asking the logger to do a clearcut, or some other procedure. Its the logger coming in and saying I'll give you money for the stand, then turns around and high grades it.
If he offered to buy anything and everything he wants, it's still not a wrong way to do things. Assuming he selective cuts and "cherry picks" it, the land-owner will be left with junk wood left, and then has to decide what to do with it. Let it grow up to junk on its own, manage it for best results, clearcut it for pulp and replant, or whatever.
However, it is truly unethical for a logger to say he is doing the "best" "only" or "normal" procedure if he is high-grading and leaving the woods a mess. It is wrong for him to deceive the land-owner in any way, or to encourage or pressure the land-owner to allow unwise forestry practices.
I don't have any tolerance for people who take advantage of other people's ignorance. I think we can all agree that is wrong.
I would rather see a field of stumps than another highgraded woodlot. But I have also seen a few really nice looking highgrade jobs. An to the public driving by thats all that matters, how it looks. This is problem could probably be applied to other problems with our society too. "Its the way things appear, not the reality of the situation."
I know the ash borer is a whole different threat than budworms. But the line around here used by loggers knocking on doors at one time was, you should cut your woods before the budworm moves in and kills the spruce and fir. Well, lots of woodlots were not harvested and the fir and spruce were not wiped out. Budworm affect over mature, over dense and otherwise weak trees. Young healthy ones can take 3 attacks or more or often times not touched because they aren't stressed. I had one logger tell me that the lots that have not been clearcut by now, probably won't be until they change ownership. Good thing some people think different. 95% of harvesting up here is clearcut, 4 % haggle a place, and the other 1 % actually do decent work. You also find the 95% are always running down the 1 % and the 1 % never has to knock on doors. ;) Here I have just a young forest and have had realestate guys leaving cards in the door. I suppose someone looking for woods ground. I'll never sell because it cost less in taxes than a tank full of gas in the car. ;) One mill up here nearby will openly state that the only ground they buy is ground they can cut off. I can take you to a spot at the head of a brook that is probably 1200 acres of maple forest, they scalped the whole area even in the deep gullies. There may be some different stages of growth, but it's all cut. Much of it was old abandoned grant land, the folks moved away or died off and the relatives disposed of the land. And this mill is a softwood mill and they don't thin hardwoods.
The majority of our work comes to us. Hardly any knocking on doors. The landowners usually call us with an idea of the prescription they would like.
yup the best loggers around here have to wait for really bad weather to get a vacation, and they rarely answer the phone... the guys that advertise are the ones I worry about, "will pay top dollar for standing timber" yeah define top dollar, and if you were any good you wouldn't have to advertise.
Quote from: 1270d on October 21, 2012, 08:37:56 AM
The majority of our work comes to us. Hardly any knocking on doors. The landowners usually call us with an idea of the prescription they would like.
seems to be the way to go word of mouth, when I first got going on this logging thing I hit up a few friends and co-workers, now I just wait for the next one, usually have to guide the land owner a bit on what they really want... whats best for their pocket and their land, but if you treat them like intelligent human beings and give em a fair deal, they usually understand what it is your trying to do.
There is little clear cutting around here. The only clear cutting Ive done are home lots. The landowners come to me I dont knock on doors,However I have friends that do and there very successful at it. theres nothing wrong with it.If the neighbor has a stand of mature timber it doesnt hurt to ask.It helps with moving costs, property lines,landing issues.The adjacent landowner sees your work.Im on a job now where the adjacent landowner came to me. There was no place to land on his property so i asked the landowner where I was already cutting to land on him.It was no problem. Happy to help.Ive gained three landowners in this area.Just from being there.All four propertys were marked and sold through a forester 15 years ago on a 15 year select cut program. They chose not to go that route this time.
QuoteThey chose not to go that route this time
Big thanks can go to the forester that didn't have it over-logged 15 yrs ago. He made money for the landowner and didn't get a commission. ::)
They chose not to use a forester. That does not mean it wont be cut in the same manner.
Quote from: beenthere on October 21, 2012, 08:18:37 PM
QuoteThey chose not to go that route this time
Big thanks can go to the forester that didn't have it over-logged 15 yrs ago. He made money for the landowner and didn't get a commission. ::)
That's to bad. Things can change a lot in 15 years. Even though there may be timber that can be cut now that may not be the case in the next 15.
Quote from: Jeff on October 15, 2012, 04:55:47 PM
QuotePeople think you cant trust loggers you can only trust a forester
That has never been said here. Never, not once. Let me guess. You are a logger.
some people just cant trust loggers?
ga jones, You are absolutely correct. Some people just can't, don't or will not trust loggers. That is why I will not do a job without the involvement of a forester.
When you are doing something like this that is such a big decision, often once-in-a-lifetime, it pays to be suspicious of anyone involved-- logger, forester, land-owner. That's where it really helps to scope out the person-- get references, see previous work, ask neighbors about them. Get their reputation from multiple people.
FORESTER OR LOGGER
It is important to distinguish between the Forester and the Logger. The Forester is responsible for designing the forest plan, selecting the silvicultural system, planning for regeneration, determining the need for intermediate treatments, and arranging for the harvest. Silviculture is the art and science of tending and regenerating forest vegetation. The proper choice of silvicultural treatments depends on the interaction of timber types, soil and forest conditions, forest wildlife, and the landowner's objectives. Sustaining the forest ecosystem through integrated resource management should be included in the choice of treatments and the manner in which they are carried out.
A professional Forester can decide which silvicultural system and Best Management Practices for water quality protection are best suited for a forest stand. The Logger is the person who does the timber harvesting (logging) of the timber stand in accord with the management prescription developed by the Forester. The Logger produces the commercial forest products from the timber stand. Such products may include veneer logs, sawlogs, pulpwood, poles, posts, fuelwood, wood chips, or specialty products. The work activities of logging usually include felling, bucking, skidding, decking, and hauling. The three major types of harvesting methods used in Michigan are shortwood, tree length, and whole tree methods. Foresters and Loggers working closely together can provide prudent and environmentally sound forest management for the landowner.
"Foresters and Loggers working closely together can provide prudent and environmentally sound forest management for the landowner."
That is definitely true.
And if you ever find that a particular forester won't work with a particular logger, or vice-versa, it would pay to find out the details from multiple reliable sources before hiring either one of them.
A lot of landowners up here, get a big shock after the taxes are paid to. The folks that do the liquidation cuts get hit hard because they have no plan and the woodlot is not part of their full time livelihood. Cutting off your woods, they soon find out is not like the lottery. Here in Canada there is no tax on lottery winnings. ;) Also, many loggers here hold woodland and harvest some in tight times as is part of the job and they can save on taxes if they have a plan in place that they follow for their land. This is their livelihood. Most however do not have a management plan for their woods. Kind of a shame, but I guess they would rather pay more income taxes than follow a plan. I've worked with most loggers in the area in one capacity or another and only remember one following a plan. He's part of that 1 % I mentioned earlier.
Quote from: beenthere on October 21, 2012, 08:18:37 PM
QuoteThey chose not to go that route this time
Big thanks can go to the forester that didn't have it over-logged 15 yrs ago. He made money for the landowner and didn't get a commission. ::)
I've had jobs where the consultant used all the $$ from the sale and gave the land owner a bill on top of that.
Unless that was written in a contract for services I don't believe it for a second. How much money do some of these people think a sale actually costs to administer when a private woodlot may average 100 acres or less. When they are done through the local marketing board staff the landowner cost is $3.50 a cord and that's on all products plus a 2.2% levy which is paid to a board for any wood cut, whether done through their management or otherwise. And that comes from the "producer" of the products, not always the landowner. The marketing board staff does all the marketing, doesn't cost the producer of the wood one extra cent to have that information in his hand. If everyone is experienced enough in the area that is involved in a harvest, they will usually have their own list of markets and some phone numbers to verify if they are buying. Heck even without a marketing board, there are wood brokers around here to call and sell wood through.
Take a small 40 ac woodlot which is full of low grade wood ie.. firewood or pulp with a stumpage value of 5 to 7 dollars which is marked at 50 dollars per hour plus expenses plus mileage. It doesnt take any time to blow thur any money the jobs going to generate. these are not woodlots being treat in any commercial fashion (probably removing 5/6 cords per acre) or are they full of saw logs. many are lucky to generate 5 thousand bdft of low grade logs. By having this work done they (woodlot owners) are able to stay enrolled in use value program which typically reduces the tax by 50%. Plus the cost to show the job, plus check on it plus, meet with owner,plus paper work, close the job out, all at 50.00 per hour, it adds up. These guys make a good living. Oh, throw in any kind of management plan amendment there's a some more billable hours.
Quote from: ga jones on October 21, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
Quote from: Jeff on October 15, 2012, 04:55:47 PM
QuotePeople think you cant trust loggers you can only trust a forester
That has never been said here. Never, not once. Let me guess. You are a logger.
some people just cant trust loggers?
I never said that, those are your words, quoted from your post. I can sense you developing an attitude with me. I'm going to tell you one time, dont do it. You won't like it.
It's certainly not thousands of dollars to write a plan, not much to advertise a sale and most visits to the job after the initial layout is not all day. 10-12 acres can be marked per day on snowshoes in winter including trails. So 15 could conceivably be marked in summer. So maybe two weeks salary involved marking. I've done it all it's not double digit thousands, in fact well under $10,000. Now with that being said you can't drag out the harvest for months on end. I've seen guys do a good job on 100 acres and be done a single tree selection and some patch cc (under an acre each) and be gone in 4 months. That being said I would imagine the forester has 2, maybe 3 jobs going at any time if he's reputable. Trouble is around here most have the mindset that a middle man is bad for their interest. And the main interest is $$, not what to leave. I just took a ride today and saw about 5 cuts, maybe 3-4 years old and mostly coming to pincherry with aspen mixed in. Some fir scattered but it was suppressed junk. That's your next woods for those lots.
Quote from: 240b on October 22, 2012, 11:45:59 AM
Quote from: beenthere on October 21, 2012, 08:18:37 PM
QuoteThey chose not to go that route this time
Big thanks can go to the forester that didn't have it over-logged 15 yrs ago. He made money for the landowner and didn't get a commission. ::)
I've had jobs where the consultant used all the $$ from the sale and gave the land owner a bill on top of that.
I can see that happening if there is nothing but junk on the lot. If it is junk or a TSI job a good forester will try to get what needs to be done at no cost to the land owner and maybe even a little in their pocket.
Im sorry Jeff. I never meant to slander you. I dont have any bad feelings toward you.
Quote from: Shotgun on October 13, 2012, 11:18:21 AM
Tell him thanks, but no thanks. Your post is full of red flags. Do you, or would you, buy insurance from someone that shows up at your door and says that I want to sell you this while I'm in the neighborhood? ? Don't rush into anything. Do your homework. Get the services of a reputable professional forester. It will pay in the long run. My advice is don't even consider consider it
Good luck. And keep us posted.
Norm
What?! "Don't even consider it" I'm a 4th generation logger and I can tell you us loggers talk to the neighbors where we're logging all the time, NO BIGGIE, in fact I get a lot of work from neighboring land owners that approach me often, it's common place. It's simple to check his credentials, most loggers are reputable and will do a great job managing, harvesting your forest.
gjersy, I agree most loggers are reputable and can do a good job harvesting your forest but not very many of them have the qualifications to manage a forest. Growing a good productive forest is a science. It's knowing how trees grow and what they need to grow. It's knowing soils and how they affect a trees ability to grow. It's knowing why we need to thin, when to thin and the best way to do it. I'm sure a forester on here can also point out other aspects of managing a forest that I am not aware of.
I work with, hire a forester by the acre to mark tree's when necessary as do most of the loggers i know, the big loggers around here have foresters on there payroll. When I say logger i'm not talking about a firewood cutter or part time weekend pulp cutter with a tractor, I'm talking full time, certified, contract loggers, they will do a good job, for the most part, like I said check there credentials bud.