I'm not sure if this is the right category to post this in, but here goes.
I am curious about planting some western tree species here in the east. What species can grow here well, and what are the considerations? I am interested, at some point in the future of trying Douglas Fir, Western red cedar, and possibly others such as Sitka spruce.
Mostly because I'm one of those people who just can't leave well enough alone.
But I'm just curious about whether anybody you know has done it, how it turned out, and so on. How about other western species, too, such as redwood, or ponderosa pine? Or others?
If you try some of those listed like western red cedar and Douglas fir you need the interior cultivars because back east and in the interior mountain ranges it is dryer climate. The trees on the coastal rain belt won't survive the dry hot weather. Western red has been growing in Nova Scotia, but the climate there is not as hot and dry as down your way. Sitka spruce won't survive. Look at where red spruce is growing, usually the ridge tops where it is cooler down your way.
A lot of people have a spruce tree growing in their yard here, planted. Not sure what the cultivar or species is. I assumed it was a red spruce since they are the ones that grow closest to here naturally.
I didn't really think Sitka would survive right here where I am, but maybe farther north. I am assuming any coastal tree (and Sitka definitely is one) would require extra watering.
Blue possibly and maybe some Engelmann/white cross. White spruce is mainly a northern tree in river bottoms, wet woods, gullies and old field and Engelmann is in the rocky mountains.
Since I am in "Western Mississippi" I will send you some Sweetgum, Privet, Honey Locust, Chinese Tallow, and I'll throw in some Kudzu just because I am a nice guy. ;D
Quote from: Magicman on November 09, 2012, 09:39:36 PM
Since I am in "Western Mississippi" I will send you some Sweetgum, Privet, Honey Locust, Chinese Tallow, and I'll throw in some Kudzu just because I am a nice guy. ;D
We already have most of these things. Kudzu is a highly renewable resource!
There is a large coast redwood (Sequoia sempervirens) reported growing in Abbeyville, SC.
Quote from: clearcut on November 10, 2012, 12:41:07 AM
There is a large coast redwood (Sequoia sempervirens) reported growing in Abbeyville, SC.
Oh, nice! I wonder how tall they can get outside their native range. We don't get the daily fog or mist that the coast of California gets, and Abbeyville is inland a ways.
So, where did you find the source for that info?
QuoteSo, where did you find the source for that info?
A bit of Google Fu brings up this page, with pics of said Redwood tree.
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=603e30ec-5a22-4061-aab6-439b32357f83 (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=603e30ec-5a22-4061-aab6-439b32357f83)
It hosts a geocaching site for the folks into that hobby.
QuoteThis redwood is 66 feet tall.. It's circumference at 4' high is 10 feet,and it has a diameter of 3' 2" at chest height.
So not exactly a monster, but a respectable tree.
It seems the coastal fog is not 100% needed. There are Redwoods here in NZ that are reaching 220 ft, and they are miles from the Ocean, and I see there is a stand in Hawaii as well, but at a higher altitude where it's cooler.
We have a few here in Stratford, the temperature, rainfall and Mt mists are probably close enough to their natural range, although ours have grown open in a park, so are probably only ~100 ft tall and maybe 4ft dbh.
As for what trees might grow, maybe go an check out some local parks and see what ornamental trees are growing well? Lots of trees can be grown outside their natural range if you can get the seedlings established and growing. Might take shelter or extra water to get them started.
Ian
It even snows in Hawaii ya know. ;)
Some western species have been grown in the British Isles to. But of course there is lots of "London Fog" over there to. ;)
Well, maybe I'll plant a Douglas fir in my yard. ;D
Here is an article from 2005 that describes the tree:
http://www.knowitall.org/sandlapper/Summer-2005/PDF/Redwood.pdf
It reports that the tree was 55" in diameter (not sure if DBH) and was 105' tall. I was later struck by lightening.
Fog provides year round precipitation, up to 100" in an otherwise Mediterranean climate that gets about 40" of rain, and largely defines where the redwoods grow. Coast redwoods grow remarkably well in irrigated landscapes.
QuoteFog provides year round precipitation, up to 100" in an otherwise Mediterranean climate that gets about 40" of rain, and largely defines where the redwoods grow. Coast redwoods grow remarkably well in irrigated landscapes.
Yes, I suspect it's that regular rainfall that they need. Hot dry summers would tend to stress them. But I think the actual fog is a side effect of the location/climate, rather than essential to their growth. Here we have the regular rainfall (~80"), throughout the year, and a mild climate (not too hot, not too cold). So they do grow here.
They investigated planting them as commercial forest trees, but they only really thrived in very specific micro-climate locations. Other areas they survived, but not as well. So Radiata Pine and Douglas fir got planted instead.
But it does suggest they can be grown in many locations outside their native range.
Ian
Incense-cedar (Calocedrus decurrens does surprisingly well in the East. I know of beautiful specimens in many locations in Georgia. There is also a nice redwood growing not too far from where WDH lives. There are Douglas-fir and blue spruce on the UGA campus, but they are pretty sickly looking.
Insense cedar is my favorite, and I've planted a few Giant Sequoia's, they are surviving, but have'nt taken off. Freezeing is a killer for the coastals, but if you can keep water through the heat, I would think most trees would grow anywhere.
Yes frost hardiness is a killer. Even up on the BC north coast where I worked the trees leaved out a good 2 months before they do back here in NB and we are further south than Prince Rupert. Remember in the spring time it's warmth that triggers bud break. It's only frozen out there from Dec-Feb and not every year, the rest of the year it rained. And what snow did land was gone in days unless up on the mountains. A big influence on their cold was outflow winds from Alaska coming down those big U valleys. Wind of the Pacific was always rain.
I was given a rather nice "cedar" log by a friend. He had cut it down 3-4 years ago here in this area. I milled it up the other day, assuming it was ERC. However, inside, it did not look much like ERC, nor did it smell like it. Now I am wondering just what it was I milled. To contrast it, a few weeks ago I milled up some really old ERC that had moss growing on the outside and the outside rotting off. When I got into the center, it was still bright pink and smelled just like ERC. But this mystery log was orangy and gray inside and did not smell like ERC. It just had a slightly attractive, dull wood smell. Any ideas what it might be? The bark looked like the various cedar and cypress variations out there, such a ERC, EWC, or Leyland cypress. I have never milled EWC or LC, but I have milled baldcypress and that had absolutely no orange color in it, only shades of brown, gray, and maybe custard color.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22845/not_ERC.jpg)
Sorry, my camera didn't capture the orange super well, but it is a little more noticeable IRL than in the picture.
BTW, I sold one 3X6 beam out of there for a mantel. I sold it for $3 / bf, 9 ft long, it brought $40. I had told him I would get him a cedar mantel, and so when he came for it, I never said anything, because I wasn't sure what it was. He wanted a nice rustic piece, and he certainly got that. ;)
Port-Orford-cedar maybe? Planted as ornamental. Fresh cut wood smells gingery. Be aware , if it is, that you need protection from breathing the dust and oil vapor for long periods, can cause kidney troubles.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 15, 2012, 03:57:46 AM
Port-Orford-cedar maybe? Planted as ornamental. Fresh cut wood smells gingery. Be aware , if it is, that you need protection from breathing the dust and oil vapor for long periods, can cause kidney troubles.
Could be. It isn't any eastern tree, is it, what I have here? The oil vapors aren't going to cause trouble for people who put the mantel in their house, are they?
Doesn't look like Port-Orford cedar to me. Port-Orford has a kind of tawny color, not too different from northern white-cedar or eastern white-cedar. My best guess would be a Cryptomeria japonica - Japanese-cedar. Very common ornamental in the South.
Could be any man's guess. All I seen was old stained boards with rotten sapwood. :D
Well it's just a guess, but it is an educated guess. I've cut Cryptomeria for turning stock before. It's very stringy and the color is right (minus the grey, which I'm guessing is just a result of the trees sitting for 4 years). And Cryptomeria is a common ornamental in okra's neighborhood, and the bark could be confused for eastern redcedar. So, like I said, and educated guess. :)
That, and familiarity/ experiences of the area I would say. :)
I've seen over the years, Paulownia and Magnolia tried up here. You know the end result. These are from seasonal nurseries. Just another one of them experiences. ;)
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on November 15, 2012, 05:22:01 PM
Well it's just a guess, but it is an educated guess. I've cut Cryptomeria for turning stock before. It's very stringy and the color is right (minus the grey, which I'm guessing is just a result of the trees sitting for 4 years). And Cryptomeria is a common ornamental in okra's neighborhood, and the bark could be confused for eastern redcedar. So, like I said, and educated guess. :)
It could very well be that, too. I have seen them in the area, and asked for an id on living examples before.
The grain of this wood is very course, more so than the ERC I am accustomed to milling around here. The gray may very well be from age-- regardless-- I like the effect. Maybe I will have to send Dodgy an end-grain sample.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 15, 2012, 03:57:46 AM
Port-Orford-cedar maybe? Planted as ornamental. Fresh cut wood smells gingery. Be aware , if it is, that you need protection from breathing the dust and oil vapor for long periods, can cause kidney troubles.
I sniffed it again today, and I wouldn't think it smells gingery or spicey at all. The smell is kind of an unremarkable, earthy wood smell with just a hint of cedary or piney-like smell, but not at all aromatic, just kind of incidental.
I guess I could always lick it to see if tastes poisonous. ::)
You'd probably still smell it. But also old logs or lumber that has began to break down will smell earthy anyway. Sugar maple will smell like a barn yard manure pile. :D
Yeah, this wood doesn't smell bad, per se, like the old maple, or even like green box elder, but just a tad musty plus a tad piney or cedary, but hard to smell anything at all. However, the old ERC logs I have milled have been bright pink inside and still smelled like aromatic ERC.