The Forestry Forum

As many of you know, I'm building a barn that requires some beams for the foundation.  One of the trees I wanted to use for one of these beams died some time ago... I remember about this time last year I noted that this tree was dying, so it hasn't been dead too long and it was still standing.  It was a good size (to me) tree, about 22" DBH.  I felled it last Saturday and I was surprised at how difficult of a time my new Husky 365 had with it.  When I got the log on the mill, much of the outer wood was punky.  As I whittled it down to the proper 6 x 8 size, I started to have problems with wavy cuts and finally realized that my blade was loaded up with pitch!  I had been using the regular amount of lube (water and dishsoap) and my normal feedrate... at least until I started getting wavy cuts.  I had dips of 3/4" or more and I learned to recognize the difference in sound when the blade moved away from one of the guides.  When I first moved to the south over 25 years ago, a friend of mine introduced me to the phrase "fat lighter" and/or "lighter knot", which I was told was rotted pine where the sap had accumulated in the heart of the tree and hardened.  He showed me some when we were out in the woods and the smell was like a fresh cut pine on steroids!  When I was cutting this dead tree, the sawdust smelled just like it so I concluded that is what I was cutting.

Anyway, I have a handful of questions.... Does it sound probable that I was cutting this sort of wood?  Is it rare?  How does it form?  Is it as strong as a normal, fresh-felled SYP?  Should I stay away from cutting trees that I suspect might be like this?  If it's OK to saw and use, what is the best way to keep pitch off the blades?

I finally finished the beam, had to change blades for the last two cuts and I literally flooded the blade with lube... went through 2 gallons in about 10 minutes.  Now I wonder if I should even consider using the beam?

All y'alls (plural for y'all to those of you not familiar with the southern dialects... and yes, they [me too now!] really do talk this way!) wisdom on this subject would be appreciated!  Oh, and true to the forum's mantra... here's some pics... it DID happen!

What you have there is a Heart Pine beam, highly prized in most circles.  The tree was obviously a Longleaf.  The beam will be very strong and stable and will never rot.  As an added benefit, there ain't a bug on the planet that will eat it.  On the down-side, it will be extremely heavy, and you will have trouble driving a nail into it.  If it was mine, I'd be tempted to save it for some application where weather resistance is important.

DanG,

I do not know if this was a Longleaf, since it was dead and had no needles.  No cones either but I did not see any large cones around the area.  The limbs had broken because of rot.  I would suspect that it was Shortleaf, Loblolly or Slash.  I do have some Longleafs but nowhere near where this tree was.  There is also a similarly sized tree about 12' from where that one was that for certain is not a longleaf.

As far as bugs go, they have eaten their way into this log, but not the heart.  Actually, when I used a cant hook to turn the beam on the mill, the corner where the hook gripped broke away.  Although I haven't lifted the beam, the slabs and boards that came off the sides were lighter than usual.  The first 1.5" board that I took off the log broke when it dropped from the log to the bunk as I was pulling it off. Subsequent 1.5" and 1" boards did not break.

I certainly hope that what is left is plenty strong, I went through a lot to get it to the mill.  By far the longest I have skidded a log to date and the most inaccessable location to date as well.  I seriously doubt that I'll ever go to that much trouble for a DanG dead tree again (couldn't resist  ;D), it's been nothing but trouble!  On the positive side, I've gained confidence in log handling techniques.  I destroyed a cheap snatch block in the process because I couldn't see when to stop.  The log didn't fit through the cable opening in the snatch block!  Ooops!

Thank you for your post DanG.  You are quite famous here, eh? 

He's DanG famous!

GR,
Looks like a nice log to me.  I will leave it to others to offer advise on sawing heart pine as I have thus far sawn very little of it.

BTW, y'all is already plural (least ways it is 'round these parts) :)

Welcome to the world of SYP.   ;D   I use water and pine sol (pine o pine, etc.) for the blade lube.  If you get into hard knots and/or heavy pitch, if you think you are sawing slowly, slow down.  Good sized (and some, not so good sized) pine knots will throw your cut off.  When they've been dead a while,  that soft/hard cutting on those things is best approached very slowly.  Did I mention, 'very'?    ;D  It is hard to tell sometimes when the blade has left the plane. 

The wider, the worserer.   If you're going to saw more of it, a blade built for it helps a lot.  I don't know what mill you have, but they will likely know what would work well for your mill.

Well, duh, had I waited for the pics to load, I believe even I should/could have seen what mill you have.   :D

Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on November 14, 2012, 05:47:30 PM


BTW, y'all is already plural (least ways it is 'round these parts) :)

You uns is plural of you'alls.

We dont talk strange on the computer. PC

Y'alls = Possessive form of y'all...ie, "everyones opinion".   ;)

Welcome to the world of syp. I have used 3 blades and 5 gallons of soapy water on 1 12 ft log..Even had to shut down the mill and scrape the gunk off the blade with a knife. Lessons learned::

Blade has to be sharp sharp with plenty of set..
Pitch buildup will cause bunches of dives and climbs
Keep the blade wet
Push a dull blade enough to heat it up, and pitch will melt and stick no matter what you do.
Wear old gloves, pitch will stick to your hands and it's hard to get off. Get it on your clothes, just learn to live with it..
When all else fails, spray the blade with a light coat of diesel or kerosene
Watch the blade when it exits the cut. If it jumps up or down, change blades..

Thanks all y'all!  ;D

Most of what I've sawn has been SYP and I've never had these kind of issues, only with this one that was dead.  There is another good sized log on the tree as well and appears to be sound, but I don't know if it's worth dragging from where it is just to encounter more of this kind of aggravation!

The freshly felled live trees that I've cut have yet to present a problem.  They cut like butter!

Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on November 14, 2012, 05:47:30 PM
BTW, y'all is already plural (least ways it is 'round these parts) :)

Funny GMM... I was told about the "all y'all" by multiple people where I used to work in Columbus, GA!  It ain't that far from where you are to be different...is it?  Of course southern dialects are like brewerys in Germany, every little town has one!

This kinda fits in with this post,If you have the usual flanged band guide take a black majic marker and put a line on the back where you can see it.You can watch it turning and if you notice it slowing down you know your band is starting to dive.Sometimes slowing the feed will catch it. Frank C.

You can also put a quart of diesel in with the water and soap in your lube tank.  The agitation from the engine will disperse the diesel just enough to get just a little bit on the blade, and the diesel will help keep the pitch from building up. 

Another thing that will make you scratch your head is when you are cutting dry outside layers and moist or pitch heavy inside layers at the same time. yikes_smiley help_me dangle_smiley smiley_goofy_face smiley_huh smiley_huh2 smiley_furious3

I couldn't decide which smiley fit the frustration the most so I went Aussi. on ya. ;D

WDH: I'm not what you would call an environmentalist, but I just don't like the idea of petroleum products being dispersed on the ground in my sawdust.  I suppose if I find nothing else that works, I might try it, but I think I'll try a few other things before I go that route.

Bandmiller2: My mill does not have a flanged roller, it has a bearing at blade height that limits the movement of the blade while in a cut.  I can easily hear when the blade guide stops spinning, so I'll know when something funky is going on.

Thank you all for your suggestions...

I took the finished beam off the mill and set it in place on the posts last night.  When I looked at it this morning you could see where the bugs are still at work.  Sawdust coming from some of the holes.  I'm going to spray the thing with permethrin tonight and see if that kills the bugs.  Although I really hate to waste the time and effort that went in to this beam, I may decide not to use it, fearing that it will not have the required design strength of 2700 lbs plus a 25% safety factor.

Quote from: grweldon on November 15, 2012, 04:01:33 PM
WDH: I'm not what you would call an environmentalist, but I just don't like the idea of petroleum products being dispersed on the ground in my sawdust.  I suppose if I find nothing else that works, I might try it, but I think I'll try a few other things before I go that route.

If your sawing pitchy Pine.....Diesel is the the way to go. I put a cup of Diesel in my lube tank with water......sometimes......only when my blade collects an abundance of pitch. Other wise I keep a spray bottle of Diesel by my mill. When I hear the blade begin to sizzle, caused from build up, I'll spray my blade until it quietens down. You'll spill more gas at a service than you will spraying Diesel on your blade.  :)

As Piney says, lots of set and a sharp clean blade.   Steve

I don't sharpen or set my own blades.  I use what comes out of the box...

If your sawing pitchy Pine.....Diesel is the the way to go. I put a cup of Diesel in my lube tank with You'll spill more gas at a service than you will spraying Diesel on your blade.  :)
[/quote]

This may be true, but at a gas station, the spill is most likely on concrete.  Gasoline evaporates quickly and has very little oily component.  Diesel or Kerosene is quite oily and if mixed with sawdust can migrate.  The amounts you are speaking of are extremely small, but environmentally speaking, none is better!  :)  Still need to try the powdered Cascade dishwashing detergent like Magicman uses and the Pine Sol-type solvents first!  I don't think I'll be cutting too much pitchy pine anyway.  Don't have too many dead ones that I would consider cutting.

Quote from: customsawyer on November 14, 2012, 09:04:44 PM
Another thing that will make you scratch your head is when you are cutting dry outside layers and moist or pitch heavy inside layers at the same time. yikes_smiley help_me dangle_smiley smiley_goofy_face smiley_huh smiley_huh2 smiley_furious3

I couldn't decide which smiley fit the frustration the most so I went Aussi. on ya. ;D

I Love It. ;D 8)

Maybe we all, y'all, us'n  could use a dedicated Aussi emoticon to help dress up our posts with 1 click of the mouse. ;D

°Hey GR, I too have had a few resin syp logs. these can be a bear, If at all possible I try to make the entry cut from the small end of the log.  And just pour the coolant to it.  Glad to see your project moving right along,  keep us updated with somemore pictures.   david

Quote from: paul case on November 14, 2012, 06:20:09 PM

Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on November 14, 2012, 05:47:30 PM


BTW, y'all is already plural (least ways it is 'round these parts) :)

You uns is plural of you'alls.

We dont talk strange on the computer. PC

Yous is the proper term north the Mason-Dixon and western PA its yuns....  The following is a typical Philly conversation:
"Yo, watch yous doing?"
"Nutin. Jeet yet?"
"Nah'wanna?"

Translation: Hi, how are you on this fine day? I'm good. Did you eat yet? No, would you like to have dinner/lunch with me?
:D :D :D :D

Quote from: drobertson on November 16, 2012, 08:58:21 AM
Glad to see your project moving right along,  keep us updated with somemore pictures

I've got one or two more David.  I'll wait and see what I have after tomorrow and I'll post them on the continuing thread in the General catagory.

Sounds good,  looking forward to seeing them, have a great week-end,  david

I got into a pine like that when I first got a mill.  It was a nightmare with the waves.  But I just milled a dead lightning struck pine.  At least half the log was fat.  It did good, no waves.  Just socked to lube to it, kept a sharp blade  and sawed slow.  It made some pretty lumber.  Diesel is probably no more harmful to the environmental than the saw dust from milling fat lighter. 

Quote from: grweldon on November 16, 2012, 07:59:31 AM
Still need to try the powdered Cascade dishwashing detergent like Magicman uses

I do not use powdered Cascade, I use liquid.  About two ounces (one glug) per gallon.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0302.JPG)
I remove the "squirter"


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0306.JPG)
And give it 5 glugs.

I sometimes have to turn the Lube-Mizer on full for a few seconds between boards and allow the lube to clean the blade before the next cut.  I have never used or seen the need to use Diesel.

A "pitchy" blade will "wander", but a pitchy blade is also hard to pull through the log and can cause your drive belt to slip which will cause your blade to wander big time.  There are many possibilities.

Gotcha Magicman!

Y'all are probably gonna think is is crazy but I have found that when getting pitch build up like that I just simply cut the lube off all together first time I did it was an accident ( ran out and didn't realize it ) went to refill jug and noticed all pitch was gone off Blade and belts Im guessing that it just gets hot enough to allow it to melt away been cutting wet sticky pine like that ever since dry as a bone and have done better than any lube I tried and I tried em all

So Valley, you are saying that the pitch is its own lube. Nifty.

Quote from: Okrafarmer on November 18, 2012, 10:24:22 PM
So Valley, you are saying that the pitch is its own lube. Nifty.

Not really sure all I know is it works

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 15, 2012, 04:21:40 PM

Quote from: grweldon on November 15, 2012, 04:01:33 PM
WDH: I'm not what you would call an environmentalist, but I just don't like the idea of petroleum products being dispersed on the ground in my sawdust.  I suppose if I find nothing else that works, I might try it, but I think I'll try a few other things before I go that route.

If your sawing pitchy Pine.....Diesel is the the way to go. I put a cup of Diesel in my lube tank with water......sometimes......only when my blade collects an abundance of pitch. Other wise I keep a spray bottle of Diesel by my mill. When I hear the blade begin to sizzle, caused from build up, I'll spray my blade until it quietens down. You'll spill more gas at a service than you will spraying Diesel on your blade.  :)

Hey Gr, 

I'm not sure what you use in your 365, most likely petroleum product bar oil. The 365 mixes much more of this lube in your sawdust than the bandmill does. Just an FYI. Some people use vege oil in their chainsaws though, maybe this is what you feed your Husky.

Well I've never milled it but can relate to it .Years back when carbide insert blades were quite costly for a hand held circular saw I spent 35 dollars for one because a standard steel blade would dull after about half dozen cuts on SYP .

Prior to I would have never guessed anything with the word pine in it could be so hard .

I have seen individual trees/logs that were cantankerous, but those were just oddballs.  Sawing SYP is 90%+ of my sawing and probably 75% of that is dead.

The principal issues that I may encounter is "compression wood" in the butt log and knotty top logs. 

Quote from: Magicman on November 19, 2012, 09:20:55 AM
I have seen individual trees/logs that were cantankerous, but those were just oddballs.  Sawing SYP is 90%+ of my sawing and probably 75% of that is dead.

The principal issues that I may encounter is "compression wood" in the butt log and knotty top logs.

That's good to hear!  I imagine most of what I saw for quite a while will be SYP.  I've had a few knotty top logs, but as soon as I say I haven't had many issues sawing them, I'll be humbled really quick, so I won't say that!

hey if you need help with sharping i have a cooks sharpener and don't live too far. being able to sharpen and set your own really take the guess work out of sawing problems.

Thank you Bushhog!  I will certainly take you up on that.  You are near Ramer, are you not?

Do you also have a Cook's mill?  I'd certainly like to visit and see.  You are also welcome to visit my place if you wish...

I have about 6 blades that need sharpening.  How long have you been sharpening your blades?  I can bring them down to you this weekend if that fits your plans...

GR, it may be just me, but it looked like the smile in your avatar just got a little bit wider. :) :) :)

Actually, If Bushhog is not busy this weekend it's about a 70-mile drive to his place.  It would be a good 1/2-day trip if you count visiting time!  It's a great time of year to get out driving in the country as well!

I really don't like that picture.  Makes me look a bit too...uh...clean maybe?  While I enjoy taking nice hot showers after a day's work, I really enjoy getting dirty a bit more!  Of course the ultra-hot shower water helps to relax the muscles that I always overwork and pay for in the morning or over the course of a few days.  I'm still recovering from two weekends ago when at some point in time (can't pinpoint) I moved my neck and back in a very wrong way!

I can only reminisce about the days when I would lift my head off the pillow and swing my legs over the side of the bed and not feel pain!

Yes, but it's the pain that lets you know that you're still alive and kickin' ;)

UINS is more from southern mo. and the dead pitchy pine here i could not saw without a little kerosene and bar oil mix squirted on the blade... i use about 5 squirts per ten foot cut.

UNIS?

uins.... :D

Quote from: grweldon on November 16, 2012, 07:59:31 AM

Quote

If your sawing pitchy Pine.....Diesel is the the way to go. I put a cup of Diesel in my lube tank with You'll spill more gas at a service than you will spraying Diesel on your blade.  :)

This may be true, but at a gas station, the spill is most likely on concrete.  Gasoline evaporates quickly and has very little oily component.  Diesel or Kerosene is quite oily and if mixed with sawdust can migrate.  The amounts you are speaking of are extremely small, but environmentally speaking, none is better!

When sawing extremely pitchy white pine, I've used straight diesel, no water, as my lubricant. Works like a charm. Remember, dilution is the solution to pollution ;). The tiny amount that ended up in the sawdust is of no concern to me.

I live on hobbie rd north of ramer just look for the matt's motor sign 10mi from the eagle gas. would be fun to hang out, I work at hyundai in maintenance so working on sawmills pretty easy compared to cnc machines that have to be accurate down to .001". I am off wed, and thurs. then work nights this weekend so i will be home after 7am and stay up till 10am. been sharping blades for my noorwood for years gotten pretty good at it too. paid about as much for the sharpner as the mill :D

Bushhog, we'll have to catch each other when you aren't working night shift.  I wouldn't be able to get there before 10 and I bet you'd be tired around that time.  Don't y'all switch shifts every 3 months?

I'm committed on Thursday and off Friday... can't make that work!  We will definitely get together though!  Do you typically work on Saturdays?