I'm shopping around for dozers and am looking for a bit of input. I've spent time on tracked skidders, mostly a FMC unit, but need something smaller with some versatility and a dozer fits the bill. I've got my eye on two units right now:
A seventies TD8E Dresser with pretty fresh full out of frame engine rebuild and new undercarriage $15K
A (eighties?) John Deere 450C with moderate hours and good UC $11,500
Both units are equipped with winch etc, ready to work. I'm partial to John Deere, but have also heard really good things about the older TD8E Dressers, plus it's got a tad more umph to it...
I have local dealer support for both.
General logging terrain is flat land with minor grades, tree stands are thick (severely over stocked) and having a smaller dozer to snake around with is good, but also a lot of the timber is of size although it varies from job to job. Most lot's to be logged are anywhere from 5 to 40 acres with 10 and 20 acres being most common. There is often also "side work" available for a dozer (ponds, roads, general clearing etc)
I'd mostly like to hear about the pros and cons of TD8E vrs 350C from any/all experienced operators out there....
Safe
islandlogger
How about the ease of hauling whichever from job to job? That might enter into the equation and maybe not a killer either way for you.
Easy hauls, short runs, and a good willing buddy with a trailer :D
Do either of the machines mentioned have an arch on them? You will want one, makes the skidding a lot easier. Jd's are good machines but parts run more usually. Either machine have a 6 way blade on them? Definitely want a 6 way blade and an arch on the winch, you will have a very versatile machine.
Both have 6 way blades, neither comes with a arch BUT i got another good and willing buddy with materials in stock and welder hot to trot to fabricate me a good'n...
I have had good reliable luck with a TD7G. A little smaller frame and cummins 239 engine but w/o turbo so less hp than big brother 8E. Simple and easy to work on machines. Komatsu has supported all my parts needs so far.
An Arch will also put extra stress on the final drives as well because you will be transferring weight to the back of the machine.... Some machines handle this wear and tear better than others.
i agree with the statement about the arch... they r extremely hard on final drives especialy on a small machine like a 450..
7 Years ago i Dealt with a troublesome TD8.. Hated that machine.. seemed as though we were always doing Tranny and Clutch Work on it.. 6 years ago I bought my JD 550G, Havent had any big problems, but its gettin to where it needs to go in and have new brakes put in.
looks like you have done some homework on this subject and you are on the right track,if you are looking at the winch models they are equipped with with slightly heavier final drives. If you are thinking side work I would recommend finding a JD 450/550 or 555 with a detachable backhoe attachment and a detachable ripper then locate a mounting bracket and set up your arch with the winch and you will have a very useable rig for most of your tasks. This combo was available on the 450/550 dozers and 555 loaders, either way you go you will be getting the heaviest final drive configuration available for your applications. I had the JD 555 loader with detachable backhoe and ripper and it worked very well then traded if for a cat D4C dozer with the same set up. I think you will find a setup like this will keep you busy as far as side work and be very good for the logging operation as well. I preferred this configuration with a dozer but the dealers will tell you that more sold with the loader configuration, hope this gives you some ideas to work with.
I don't know about the newer dresser dozers but I have always been told that the older TD6-9-14-18 and such cost more to rebuild than an entire caterpillar tractor. And after fixing our international TD6 and Caterpillar D6 I would much rather fix the CAT.
I think you need to look at your local dealer/parts people to see where your support will be comming from if/when needed.
The older 450's had a habit of the frame cracking where it is welded to the plate that bolts to the steering clutch housing. Make sure there are no cracks,as the next thing that cracks is the transmission housing,and make sure the bolts are tight also. Don
Quote from: loggah on November 18, 2012, 05:54:02 PM
The older 450's had a habit of the frame cracking where it is welded to the plate that bolts to the steering clutch housing. Make sure there are no cracks,as the next thing that cracks is the transmission housing,and make sure the bolts are tight also. Don
what he said along with the cross beam if its a later c it will have the bigger cross beam much better. the rear cross beam......round......will wear the hole in the track frame. it can all be fixed. just something to look for.
Thanks for the input thus far, I'm hearing more feed back on the John Deere side of things....not much Dresser users out there??
I'm leaning more toward the Deere, finding out a bit more on the machine and it's history. It's been maintained by the same local Equipment Mechanic for the past 25 years, in fact he just recently bought it from the owners to do some small jobs on his property and is now passing it on. Be nice to have that same mechanic on call that knows the machine inside and out. He said the previous owners were "weekend users" and in their 25 years of owning it only put 600 plus hours on it...they kept it maintained even when just settin around. I'll be going to check it out next week and spin the tracks around some land see how she feels.
Good points on the final drives with using arches. I also have access to a tow behind arch off the draw bar. All in all, I plan to baby this thing, but get her making money to! I do have a John Deere 310D back hoe that I've customized a bit into a decent logging machine, these two together ought to make a good team and having the ability to jump from one to the other will save some wear on tear all round...
Safe
-islandlogger
I have had a 1978 TD 8E dozer for about 10 years now. I have used it for making roads, pulling tree length wood up/down hills too steep for my Iron Mule, and other pushing work. It needed a U/C when I bought it. I haven't had any problems with it. I don't use it full time, mabye put 400-500 hours on it? I also have a JD 350 with a gafner loader and it has been ok, but is way smaller. The TD 8 seems built to take day in day out use-and it has alot of hours-more than that vintage JD. The powershift transmission and steering on the TD-8 is better than the 4 speed with reverser and dry clutch steering on my JD.
Somebody had to ask: You weren't interested in getting a Cat, such as D-3 or D-4?
Sure, I would love a d-4, but finding one in my area in decent shape seems to be just not happening. And, I've heard and heard and heard that if you do buy a cat you pay for the name when it comes to parts....the TD8E and the Deere 450C are machines I've found locally and meet my price range etc.
-Islandlogger
I ran a TD-8e for 2 years and no major problems Biggest thing to watch is the 2 long thru bolts that go thru top winch mount and thru final drive houseing if they get loose they break and with an arch can be a bear to replace. A friend of mine is useing a Dresser TD-9h and it is a nice machine. Has logged with it long enough to wear out 1 undercarrage with no major problems Unless you are going BigTime a Cat is a little pricey for avarage small logger. I have both TD-9 and TD-14 and while they will still get it done but I would not recomend any thing that old if you are trying to make a liveing. Parts for the ole beasts have all went to China >:( >:( Hard to say it but even 70's is getting old(Graduated High School in 72) And I am getting wore out also :D :D :D
When one of you guys are in need of hoe for the back, I have a nice A/C Mark V, would be perfect to put on a small dozer........ FF will get their commission
Ironwood
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/mulch_036%7E0.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/mulch_035%7E0.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/mulch_037%7E0.jpg)
So Islandlogger, which machine did you end up with?
I own a '73 JD 450B crawler loader with a 4-1 bucket and 93A backhoe Attachment which is in the middle of a FULL restoration and just traded my restored '70 JD 450 straight with winch & arch for a well used but fully functioning TD-8E (along with cash, 3 legendary chainsaws and a new climbing rig).
Although I don't know much about the TD-8E yet, I can say that, after cleaning decades of grease, oil and earth from it, it looks like a more well designed machine as a whole over the JD 450 series machines. While I am still relatively new to crawlers, I was a mechanic / mechanical engineer for 25 years and looking at the two machines side by side I would have to say (at first glance as I've only had the IH TD-8E for a week now) I get a really good feeling about the TD-8E. Things I've noticed so far is the TD-8E is a smidge bigger, heavier by about 1,000 lbs, track frame covers are better, hydraulic wet steering clutches are SUPER nice, skid plates are a WAY better design, turbo'd engine with more HP than a 450 and most of all, the powershift automatic trans is much more convenient from an operator's perspective than the manual 1,2,3,4 gears and high-low-reverser that you have on a 450.
Granted, I am comparing a comparatively smaller LOADER to a larger DOZER but they are much more similar in size and capability than what you might think. Still getting used to all the legroom in the cockpit of a dozer lol and having a 6-way blade is amazing.
We did the first real work with my partner's TD8E this past week. We were getting into a boundary of timber we bought. I started in through an old pasture of very heavy, as in shut down and shout cause you can't see anything, autumn olive with the loader and was getting nowhere so we went and got the new toy. I've got no real experience but it got the job done in no time working on a ~35% slope up to the woods. So far I'm happy, just wished the blade had more tilt.
Oh, question! The blade drops pretty rapidly, we rebuilt one lift cylinder that was spooging, the other isn't leaking externally. The blade stays up when shut down but drops when running. Is that an indication of one or the other, cylinder or valve internal leakage?
Quote from: Don P on July 04, 2021, 12:53:01 PMThe blade stays up when shut down but drops when running. Is that an indication of one or the other, cylinder or valve internal leakage?
Now thats peculiar. Hmm
Its old enough for everything to be worn. Leaking down is typically in valve spool clearance and external cylinder or hose/pipe leaks. Piston seal leaks drift a little then stop once the same pressure is achieved on both sides of the piston IF and only if the control valve, hoses and cylinder rod seal arent leaking.
For it to only leak down running is just strange to me on an older open center type machine. There arent any load checks on the blade cylinders right?
There aren't any load checks. We noticed the blade was still up the other morning after my partner had shut down the night before with it up. I generally leave everything down so that observation was a one off. I'll try that a few more times to make sure it wasn't in some kind of bind.
My dads got a old 80s dresser dozer and that thing is a work horse. I Would recommend to a friend. I used it to clear most of my mill site recently
I have no experience with the Dressers, but my dad had two International TD-6's from the 50's, and later had a Cat D-4 (1949) and two D-6's and a D-2 of similar age. I used a JD 350A (actually a frankinstein machine, but had the drive system of a 350A), and had to help change out a steering clutch on it. I was appalled to find there was no way to do it without removing the track and final drive box. Seemed like Dad was able to replace steering clutches on the TD-6 without removing the final drive (what a pain!). But it's been a while. If you can access and remove steering clutches without disassembling a track, count it all joy. Not sure about the Dressers. I always felt the TD-6 was a well designed machine, except weak in the final drives (Dad busted at least three final drives and eventually parts became hard to get). A mechanic later told me that the oil level markings in TD-6's (and T-6's) was too low on the final drives, and that putting a couple more inches of oil in them would help them last longer.
All in all I think the biggest reason my dad tore up the TD-6 so much was from treating it like a TD-18. There was a giant stone, for instance, that he tried to remove from his field, and tore out the main clutch. Years later, he got that stone out with a D-6 Cat and we got to see just how huge it was......far heavier than a TD-6. :o
Thats the reason ive let my grouser bars go bald. Its a great fuse on my wallet.
A man (& machine) has to know his limitations.
A sort of quote from a Clint Eastwood movie.