I've wondered what the going rate for custom sawing is. I've been asking $40 per hour or .50 per bd. ft.
I realize it depends on how much wood you turn out and a lot of differen't variables like equipment, logs, conditions, and etc, but is there a general "per hour" price to get me in the ballpark?
I'm not interested in doing it as a 40 hour work week, but folks are asking me to slice their logs and I need to know what's fair. One guy brought me 26 cedars last week and jumped at $40 per hour but I wondered if I was overcharging him. One thing about his specific deal was that before I started cutting I told him the type of logs he'd brought would be low producers. They were all 14" at the base and 4" at the tip type of trees. It was a sentimental deal where his wife wanted "those" trees cut into boards to line her horse stalls and he was happy to ablige her. I just hate all that turning and slab removal to get four 8' 1x4's!!!!!!
Thanks.
Fran,your in the ballpark.Charge more for hardwood.As long as you explain things to the customers so they understand, you can't get chicken soup from chicken s***.
$40 a hour seems low, .50 a bf seems high. What kind of mill? Steve
"It was a sentimental deal where his wife wanted "those" trees cut into boards to line her horse stalls and he was happy to ablige her."
Looks like your helping a fellow with a Honeydo :D.
Your price seems fair to me and the gentlemen didn't balk so it may even be a bit low.
Keep going and let the gentlemen know what your production per log is earlier than later.
Best
DGdrls
My immediate thought was the same as Steve above. The hourly rate is a bit low, and the bf rate is a bit too high. At least for my area anyway.
As you saw more jobs keep records. Compare the lumber produced figured both ways. On a full day's work I like for it to figure out about the same if charged either way. I prefer to bill hourly rate on Cedar, and bf on everything else.
I'm with steve and mm.Hourly is low and bd ft is a bit high.On soft woods i get 30 cent for portable work.If they bring it to me i charge 25 cents.If some hard wood is in the mix i usually don't charge extra.
One other thing, sawing any small or crooked logs just go by the hour. Steve
Do you guys have an understanding with the customer for any damages from metal in the log? We charge by the hour to offset any downtime if we have to stop and change bits or file any damaged teeth.
Ask Magicman to show the link for his contract. ;)
On a recent two-day mobile job, I sawed SYP into 1x for 0.30/bd-ft and made better than my target hourly rate of $50/hour after expenses, despite some serious blade issues mentioned in an earlier post . Last week I was sawing red and white oak at 0.35/bd-ft. The job should have taken one day but stretched into two for a number of reasons: the logs were short (8'), the customer didn't know what lumber he wanted sawn, he was kind of slow as an off-bearer, and he didn't want to get started any earlier than 9 a.m . The job netted me about $25/hour :(. I'm considering going to an hourly rate for everything except for pine.
Around here, if they bring the logs to my mill, I charge $0.35 /bdft but increase to $0.50 per bdft if the logs are less than 12 inches in diameter or shorter than 8 feet long. I also charge $75 per hr if I have to crank up my chainsaw. I don't like necessarily pricing at the current market, I have come up with these prices based on my production and profit experience, (and how much I need to get paid to make me saw someone else's logs) :D.
On the other hand, many of the established mobile sawyers I know of charge around $75 per hour because, as one of my sawmill buddies said "it keeps the customer motivated to help and not talk so much."
To most folks these hourly rates aren't unreasonable because they know from experience that other heavy equipment with a skilled operator such as bulldozers, wheel loaders, track hoes, and others usually run in this same range per hour.
YH
I just had a guy contact me for a job-"a big one" Told him I charged 45 bucks an hour plus damage to blades, plus truck mileage. He told me that he paid the "going rate" of 35 bucks an hour, plus he wanted a discount for 8 hour days of sawing-$320 day. He said the last guy had no problem with the $. I asked why the last guy wasn't still milling for him then. Rule #1-you can't lose money on a job you refuse. Figure ALL your costs-this includes downtime for repairs etc, taxes on $$ made etc.. I just charge an hourly rate-don't bother with the BF pricing. If you figure realistically 45 bucks an hour isn't much. You'll end up with 20-25 an hour left IF you're lucky/good, and that really is not much of a wage at todays level. You'll find it difficult to get 40 billable hours of sawing done in a week.
My rates are not negotiable. I may round off a half hour's sawing or not scale a few boards, but that is my option.
Sawing contract for any that are interested: LINK (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,38693.msg557454.html#msg557454)
I'm considering a totally different method of charging. I've found that most customers don't have a clue what a board foot is and have no idea how much time it will take to saw a log into lumber. Using either method sometimes leaves the customer feeling he's being ripped off because he doesn't any idea what the job will cost out of his pocket. I'm considering charging by the foot of log length ie a 12 foot long log will cost you 12 X my rate, an 8 footer 8 X the same rate. Customer knows ahead of time what the cost will be. Probably set one rate for anything under 18 inches and another for over 18. I'm thinking if I set the rates right, should average out about the same as bd ft or hour. Customer happy knowing cost before hand, I'm happy with a decent return..The sticky part will be setting the rates that are fair to both.
MagicMan,
I like the contract! I will use if you don't mind.
Pineywoods,
With your new paymebnt schedule, how do you adjust for different thickness? Are you just figuring you have the same number of cuts for a 4/4 board as you do, say a 16/4?
Charlie
I have always, and will always charge by the hour. Customers who are slow at the off-bearing, or who have bad logs should not have an impact on the income of the sawyer. We supply a professional service with professional equipment, and we work at a consistent speed, so why should our pay rate vary because of factors that we have no control over?
My rate is $60.00 per hour. I start charging when I turn the key, and I stop charging when I stop for a break or to quit for the day.
That's just how and why I do it, and is not a comment on anyone elses's way of doing things.
John
Thanks so much for the replies. I just got intouch with a guy (10 minutes ago) in my area who saws with a lumbermate 2000 and is getting $75 an hour which I thought was a little high. He says he's done trying to cut by the bd. ft. due to customers bringing undesirable trees and expecting desirable results which I understand.
Majicman, thanks for the link.
Thanks for the reply, too many post and we never hear back from them.. Too me $75 a hour with a manual mill is high, with a hyd mill that puts out 300bf + per hour is fine. Steve
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30162/walnutlogs9.jpg) I know one other fellow in my area who has a band mill and he makes his living with it. Its an older LT40 with a 2 cylinder onan motor and few bells or whistles and he is Charging $90.00 per hour. I have charged $1.00 per bf. We are in a metropolitan area and the only two doing it within 100 miles of us and he is the ONLY one doing it full time around here. If and when I saw for some one I get a $500.00 minimum. As you can see I have a good size Hydraulic mill.
Hello guys,
this is a great forum!
I have bought a WM Lt40 Hd G28 last year and milled a lot for myself so far. Currently building a 26x30 woodshop... In the winter I cut 9000 bf of hemlock for a guy.. It was a nightmare because I charged 25 cent/bf and he wanted anything from 1x2s to live edge siding, 3x8s, 8x8s.. Length anything from 8-16 feet, from 6 inch at the small end to 20 inches.. He was the only helper.. So I had to help him off bearing (the beams e.g.), I kept track off all the different dimensions for calculation,.. some of the logs had like a 4 inch sweep in it...
It was very frustrating (probably cut around 1000 bf in a long hard day). I should have quit but I did a good job and got it done. It was a learning experience and wont happen again.
I now charge 45$/h for my labour (I am not there to off bear for free all the time, to talk to the neighbour, to work by myself because the guy as an appointment,..) with a 3 hour minimum and I charge 30$ for a damaged blade (rocks, metall,..). Setup Fee and Milage Fee depends on contract volume. I dont charge for taking a brake, for machine problems,..
Thats pretty much it. 45$/h is not much but I am happy with it. Anything less is not acceptable for me- thats why I am charging by the hour.
I make sure that the costumer understands my mill though.. If he has a lot of small logs (small end 6 inches).. I tell him what I expect to get for a production rate... you can get a dry, planed, stamped 2x8 for 55 cent/bf delivered to your house from the store.. Of course there are other factors.. there is a value of using your own lumber,etc. But I want both- my customer and myself happy. I like things clarified before I start..
Once in a while somebody drops in and asks what I charge.. I tell them and so far I got no orders (not true, I have a small job coming up but..). I am really busy with other things but on the other hand, I am not using that expensive equipment as much as I should. And I love the milling, so would be good to do more. Maybe I get rid of the mill in a few years if it doesnt pick up. We will see..
Happy milling,
Fabian
Quote from: WindyAcres on November 25, 2012, 06:23:24 PM
Hello guys,
this is a great forum!
I have bought a WM Lt40 Hd G28 last year and milled a lot for myself so far. Currently building a 26x30 woodshop... In the winter I cut 9000 bf of hemlock for a guy.. It was a nightmare because I charged 25 cent/bf and he wanted anything from 1x2s to live edge siding, 3x8s, 8x8s.. Length anything from 8-16 feet, from 6 inch at the small end to 20 inches.. He was the only helper.. So I had to help him off bearing (the beams e.g.), I kept track off all the different dimensions for calculation,.. some of the logs had like a 4 inch sweep in it...
It was very frustrating (probably cut around 1000 bf in a long hard day). I should have quit but I did a good job and got it done. It was a learning experience and wont happen again.
I now charge 45$/h for my labour (I am not there to off bear for free all the time, to talk to the neighbour, to work by myself because the guy as an appointment,..) with a 3 hour minimum and I charge 30$ for a damaged blade (rocks, metall,..). Setup Fee and Milage Fee depends on contract volume. I dont charge for taking a brake, for machine problems,..
Thats pretty much it. 45$/h is not much but I am happy with it. Anything less is not acceptable for me- thats why I am charging by the hour.
I make sure that the costumer understands my mill though.. If he has a lot of small logs (small end 6 inches).. I tell him what I expect to get for a production rate... you can get a dry, planed, stamped 2x8 for 55 cent/bf delivered to your house from the store.. Of course there are other factors.. there is a value of using your own lumber,etc. But I want both- my customer and myself happy. I like things clarified before I start..
Once in a while somebody drops in and asks what I charge.. I tell them and so far I got no orders (not true, I have a small job coming up but..). I am really busy with other things but on the other hand, I am not using that expensive equipment as much as I should. And I love the milling, so would be good to do more. Maybe I get rid of the mill in a few years if it doesnt pick up. We will see..
Happy milling,
Fabian
With good logs cutting 1" oer 1-1/2" lumber you should put out 300bf per hour with your mill which is a bargin for your customer at $45 a hour. Cutting small logs small sizes should alway be done by the hour. Steve
Quote from: YellowHammer on November 25, 2012, 11:42:57 AM
Around here, if they bring the logs to my mill, I charge $0.35 /bdft but increase to $0.50 per bdft if the logs are less than 12 inches in diameter or shorter than 8 feet long. I also charge $75 per hr if I have to crank up my chainsaw. I don't like necessarily pricing at the current market, I have come up with these prices based on my production and profit experience, (and how much I need to get paid to make me saw someone else's logs) :D.
On the other hand, many of the established mobile sawyers I know of charge around $75 per hour because, as one of my sawmill buddies said "it keeps the customer motivated to help and not talk so much."
To most folks these hourly rates aren't unreasonable because they know from experience that other heavy equipment with a skilled operator such as bulldozers, wheel loaders, track hoes, and others usually run in this same range per hour.
YH
I have had people say that to me. How can you get $70.00 an hour when a $200,000.00 excavator only gets $100.00 an hour. I tell them the same way my lawyer charges me $100.00 an hr and my accountant charges $65.00 an hour.
Steve,
you are right. It might be a bargain for the customer when cutting nice logs for 45$/h. But I have to say: good for him! I am happy when I get my hourly rate.
Yes, its scary what kind of money you have to make these days.
I charge $65 an hour from off-loading to loading their trailer with the sawn wood. $30 for each and every blade damaged by foreign objects and the clock keeps running while the blade is changed out.
The clock stops only for breaks, lunch or the end of the working day. Being a new startup mill I haven't worked out what to charge if they want the wood stacked and just air-dryed or also kilned. Both drying techniques require space and extra work. I also need to figure out what to charge if they want it all planed or cut to length. Any ideas good people?
Quote from: learner on November 25, 2012, 08:02:17 PM
I charge $65 an hour from off-loading to loading their trailer with the sawn wood. $30 for each and every blade damaged by foreign objects and the clock keeps running while the blade is changed out.
The clock stops only for breaks, lunch or the end of the working day. Being a new startup mill I haven't worked out what to charge if they want the wood stacked and just air-dryed or also kilned. Both drying techniques require space and extra work. I also need to figure out what to charge if they want it all planed or cut to length. Any ideas good people?
How about $65/hr ... ?
John
say_what
There is one guy not too far away who charges by the mill pass. Each time the blade goes down the track, whether for lumber, slabs, stickers, etc, he charges. I'm not sure what he gets, or how common this is. He is the only one I know of who does this, but his customers must not mind as he stays busy.
YH
Just my .02, we charge $125 per hour. We can saw around 1000 bd./ft. in an hour. This covers any downtime due to metal in the logs and covers metal detecting prior to sawing. We only saw straight rough, everything in one pack. No stacking. Bring us the logs, take away a dead pack of lumber.
francismilker,
This topic always brings out a lot of varied opinions. The rates you gave would be consistent if you only averaged 80 board feet per hour. If you comfortably can produce 200 bf per hour then you would be earning $100 per hour (by the bf) so sawing for $40 per hour seems pretty low. If you're making a profit at $40 per hour then .50 p/bf seems steep - depending on your situation.
What others in your area charge for similar work may give you a starting point but you really need to know what it costs to operate your mill. Keep very detailed records for awhile; track the time it takes to saw each log and how many board feet you produce from each log. Keep track of your mill engine hours per job (mine increments by the hour, not the tenth), cost of blades and sharpening, cost of fuel, labor (if any), parts, repairs, taxes, insurance, advertising, etc. After a couple of months, or quarters, you'll have a pretty good idea what it is costing you to produce a board foot of lumber. Add in a reasonable amount for your time and return on your investment, perhaps even a replacement fund. Total it up - when you know that much about your operation it will be much easier to set your prices.
I've become more proficient since I started my business but fuel costs have surpassed any gain that resulted. I've held prices steady for the past 18 months but new fees go into effect January 1st.
5 years ago I started at .20 a bf and sawed that way for quite a while. 2 summers ago when gas got up to $4 a gallon I went to .25 and now I'm thinking .30 for 2013. I rarely have small logs to worry about so hourly pricing isn't so much of a big deal for me. Occasionally I'll get extra muddy logs or something that dictates an increase in the BF price, but such things are agreed upon in advance. This summer when things got slow I started pushing for smaller jobs that I could do in a day or less. On those jobs I charged .30 and everyone was happy. On jobs that have less than 1000 bf I charge a setup fee, normally $50 to help cover my travel expenses.
I've yet to saw a job where the first meeting didn't involve us staring at a log pile and the owner asking, "How many feet you think is here?" I'm pretty good at estimating and typically tell them that when we hit that point, I'll let them know so that they can plan their expenses accordingly. I try to avoid that deer in the headlights moment when they stare blankly after hearing the total bill. I much prefer to keep them abreast of the charges, often giving them a daily update as we go along.
Magic Man - I like how you round up. I've always done it for stuff less than an inch but always charged to the inch for stuff over. Its something I need to look into.
Martin
Quote from: pineywoods on November 25, 2012, 02:28:46 PM
I'm considering a totally different method of charging. I've found that most customers don't have a clue what a board foot is and have no idea how much time it will take to saw a log into lumber. Using either method sometimes leaves the customer feeling he's being ripped off because he doesn't any idea what the job will cost out of his pocket. I'm considering charging by the foot of log length ie a 12 foot long log will cost you 12 X my rate, an 8 footer 8 X the same rate. Customer knows ahead of time what the cost will be. Probably set one rate for anything under 18 inches and another for over 18. I'm thinking if I set the rates right, should average out about the same as bd ft or hour. Customer happy knowing cost before hand, I'm happy with a decent return..The sticky part will be setting the rates that are fair to both.
Piney, I like the way you're looking at this. I agree that Joe Homeowner usually doesn't have a clue what a board foot is. I even had one cabinet maker look puzzled about that ::). Keep us posted on how/what you figure out with your idea.
In your cost estimate to the customer, do you charge extra for bringing stickers? Is it still the same hourly rate to stack and sticker? Or just an increase to the hourly rate?
You are hired to saw 1200 bdft and stack it into a pile. You can typically saw 300 bdft/hr this way.
Example 1: You provide stickers but don't use them when stacking. The customer does that later.
4 hours = $350
Regular hourly rate $75
50 Stickers $50
Example 2: You provide stickers and stack with them.
5 hours = $400 (an extra hour because of time it takes to sticker while sawing)
Regular hourly rate $75
+ $5 per hour for stickering
I would think that Example 2 would be more profitable because you would be working longer hours at each job and Homeowner Joe (who doesn't know much about drying wood) gets a complete package. Thoughts?
In my situation, I do not hire or provide help. That is the customer's responsibility. I charge the same rate regardless of the lumber thickness, and stickers are just part of the job. I provide them while edging.
Quote from: Magicman on November 26, 2012, 08:21:56 AM
In my situation, I do not hire or provide help. That is the customer's responsibility. I charge the same rate regardless of the lumber thickness, and stickers are just part of the job. I provide them while edging.
You don't get that many stickers just from edging do you? If my customers wants stickers, I'll ask him if he needs any prior to my sawing. I usually get their stickers out of 1 x 4's from the log.
I guess every saw job is different.
I do not make a big deal out of sawing stickers. If/when I see that there will not be enough, I just make stickers out of a few flitches. Sure, that is a couple of less boards to scale, but I am OK with it.
I provide a service, turn a good profit, have satisfied customers, and have fun doing it. :)
smiley_thumbsup That's what its all about! :)
Lots of reading going on here, and it as usual sounds consistant. charge what you can afford to make ends meet in regards to market value. As far as stickers go, on custom jobs when starting fresh, I always try to arange some of the smaller, clearer logs for this to get the stacks going. and I charge for it. In the begining flow is critical. 4X4's or something close is good for lumber stacks, this is a must unless the stock will be moved. Cutting is cutting, and if the flow is up there can be some adjustments to help the custormer on cost. But we are here to make some money too. It takes time and experience, and for some a bankroll to give time away. david
So far, I've not become consistent enough with my mill to feel good about charging anything. I'm still in the learning stages and want to be very proficient with it before I hang out a shingle and start receiving wages. However, at $40 an hour for custom sawing I can turn out a few boards and hour and keep the customer smiling.
This rotating day\night shiftwork I do is the hardes part on trying to run a mill on the side. It's keeping the lights on though. The milkcows are just a glorified hobby these days but it keeps me udderly happy!
I'm using the mill as my form of "prozac in a plank" and loving every minute of it.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 26, 2012, 09:44:30 AM
Quote from: Magicman on November 26, 2012, 08:21:56 AM
In my situation, I do not hire or provide help. That is the customer's responsibility. I charge the same rate regardless of the lumber thickness, and stickers are just part of the job. I provide them while edging.
You don't get that many stickers just from edging do you? If my customers wants stickers, I'll ask him if he needs any prior to my sawing. I usually get their stickers out of 1 x 4's from the log.
I guess every saw job is different.
You guys use Green lumber to make stickers?
That's my question too Solomon. Wet wood on wet wood just promotes problems and staining. Not to mention those stickers are gonna warp and twist while drying just like the boards.
I have to say that properly drying ANY cut wood is neccesary. That's something I insist that our customers know.
Don't want them taking their wet wood home and sticking it in the garage or shed for a few weeks before doing something with it.
Here in Texas, that mold and the bugs just LOVE wet wood. I don't need a customer coming back saying my wood is covered with slime and as crooked as a polotician!
Any logs I cut for stock, I also edge in 2" cuts for usable stickers(2nd and 3rd cuts off the log are also good for stickers).Gotta have them myself for the drying stage.
I try to set aside 30% of all I cut, to be dried and offered to customers, for a price of course. Even cutting and drying stickers takes time, manpower and wear on the blades and mill.
Unless the customer asks otherwise, I allways cut 7/8" 1x?'s. It produces more wood per cut and allows for planing to dimension sizes.
Most people don't know that wood NEEDS to be dried! They are used to buying it from a lumber yard where that is allready taken care of. So they think they can just bring you some logs and go home with ready to use wood. We are in the bussiness of helping recently deceased trees Live on in the lives of people everywhere.
To do that I feel we are obligated to do more than just saw the logs for them.
Sawing the logs is just the beginning. When it comes off the mill, it's wet and covered with sawdust. Just loading it onto their trailer is the beginning of the problems. I like them to know up-front that it needs to be cleaned off and stacked properly. Then it needs to dry for awhile.
QuoteYou guys use Green lumber to make stickers?
Some species you can, others is asking for problems.
I use green stickers if I have to on various Cedar and Cypress species, without problems. But these are not prone to staining, and dry fast, so you can get away with it. I've had to use it on pine and eucalyptus too, and that did create some sticker staining, so I've seen the problem.
Or if the wood is for hidden construction then any staining may not matter.
Or, if you only have green stickers, it's still MUCH better than not stickering at all :o
Ian
Quote from: Ianab on November 26, 2012, 08:46:37 PM
QuoteYou guys use Green lumber to make stickers?
Some species you can, others is asking for problems.
I use green stickers if I have to on various Cedar and Cypress species, without problems. But these are not prone to staining, and dry fast, so you can get away with it. I've had to use it on pine and eucalyptus too, and that did create some sticker staining, so I've seen the problem.
Or if the wood is for hidden construction then any staining may not matter.
Or, if you only have green stickers, it's still MUCH better than not stickering at all :o
Ian
Good point!
Be careful what you sticker with. Know your customers.
99.9999% of my sales and custom sawing is farm use lumber. Farm use lumber only requires proper thickness x width x length. When I sticker farm lumber, moisture content of stickers or species doesn't matter.
I should have explained and did not intend for my stickering method to be used to air dry top grade lumber. :)
I do have air dried pine stickers and dry oak stickers I use for stacking and sticking Q-SAWN lumber.
Can we ever say too much when it comes to talking about Wood? Poston(David?) I just learned something so all is great! Quick build farm lumber, green stickers okay. :)
James
The great majority of my sawing is beetle killed SYP, and green stickers are OK. I keep a large whack of dried stickers that I provide when I know that the sawjob is Oak.