Things are happening out there. I started really noticing about 6 months ago. People calling for pallet lumber prices. At the time, we were overwhelmed with work, and I priced way high. We did pick up a few accounts anyway. I been in contact with an occasional customer that gets mostly softwood from Canada. He had told me his prices were going up. His pallet lumber costs have risen from .32 cents a board foot to .40 cents. But that is on the fake board foot basis. I translated that back to 5/8 x 3 1/2 on a true board foot basis. Its .55 cents. Technically, its 11/16 or supposed to be. But close enough for my figuring. He expects the price to go up more. That is a 25% rise in price. He told me a newsletter he gets has construction lumber from there pegged at going up 37% this last year. If someone gets the newsletters, I would be interested in knowing if that checks out.
All I am saying, is if you start getting calls from people wanting pallet lumber, be aware. Whether its hardwood or softwood. There will be a lot of pallet companies and private companies trying to find the lumber at old prices. Might as well give them new prices, based on the market. I see a lot of you talk about cutting ties at 45-50 cents a board foot. If softwood is at .55, seems to me hardwood for that kind of dimensions ought to be at least 65 to 70 cents for pallet lumber.
Hi Kansas and :new_year:
so you must pay .25 to .30 a bf Int to make money on hard wood, and sell for .70?
On strictly pallet lumber, we been paying .22 to .25 cents delivered in. I suspect those days will end before long. We use Doyle scale here.
Doyle will help a lot , I dont know how guys [ the logers] do it with Doyle :D :D
what size logs, like 12" small end minimum
Most of the logs we use are bigger. On a lot of these salvage jobs where they are dozing out for more farm ground, we do get into the smaller ones. But those bigger ones the Doyle and International scale start to get real close. We make more money on the big ones. Just a lot more board footage cut per hour.
Kansas,
Could you explain your estimation of ''fake'' and ''real'' bdft?
I had some logs that wouldnt tie and found a few pallet makers buying 4x6-8 cants. They want to pay nothing and get picky like no splits and no bark. The price they want to pay is $.28 to $.30 bdft for 16 bdft each. I cant hardly make my expenses doing that. No sense working for free. I am however making pretty good on pallet cut stock as those are short pieces that generally would go in the slab pile. I have been cutting 5/8x 4 x 40 for $.32 each on clean ones and #2 for $.16. The outfit I sell those to would pay $.50 for 5/8x6x40. That makes those 4x6 cants worth only $.20 more if I cut them into 6'' boards or $.32 more if I make 4'' boards out of them. It may be an ok way to clean up the low quality 8' stuff but I cant see me doing to much of this as I would go broke.
I need to start nailing pallets together for someone who needs a special size. PC
That is the trick Paul. Finding them is the hard part. Pricing for parts around here is pretty much the same. I figured by the time I do the extra work and expenses I am better off leaving them in the slab and selling the slab for firewood.
I wondered if any one else was seeing this...I had the supplier re-quote a lumber order a few weeks ago for my garage and was a bit shocked with the latest numbers. I used to be more in tune to this kind of stuff but all I've been working with the last 6 years is steel studs and drywall.
Not sure how pallet lumber pricing compares to framing and sheet goods but I saw my original quote of $15,000+ go up over 30% in about a year! Needless to say I was a bit irritated >:(
Here is the justification/explanation I got from the wholesaler...
"The Market Master is our method of tracking the lumber market at a glance. What we've done is quoted a 2700 square foot (bare bones) house and updated that quote weekly based on current market pricing...that's where your increase overall comes from, lumber is up around 30% since August 2011."
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28818/Lumber_prices_2012%7E0.jpg)
If pricing is going up this much, hope it works out better for your guys than it did me! :D
Paul, a fake board foot is getting paid for a full 1x4 but its cut 5/8x3 1/2. Big difference in volume of lumber. That is the way so many pallet companies think. Same with the runners. A 2x4 is actually more around 1 1/4 by 3 1/2. They get prices on Canadian or Southern softwood lumber on the full measure, and get the fake. We just translate what they want to real board foot to price it. If that cant is actually 3 1/2 x 5 1/2 that puts the price at near .38 a board foot if you figure .30 cents on the fake. Still starvation wages. I wouldn't do it. Just set the price where you can make money, and cut something else if they don't like the price. We cut a bunch of blocking that we cut full measure 4x6 and get from .50 to .55 cents. Its not a wonderful price, but keeps the log yard cleaned up of about everything. Its in 4 and 6 ft lengths. We just chainsaw cut them, and it doesn't have to be perfect on the length. If we have a bunch of 8 ft logs that average 8'6", we just bundle them together, and cut the bundle in half.
I don't want to discourage you from making pallets yourself. Just remember that if you are working mostly alone, the time spent building pallets means the mill won't be running. You will need a really good air supply, a couple of air nailers, being one is usually down, a supply of pallet nails. Not that big of deal. Some small companies or unusual companies will pay up. The biggest selling point is this for you. You can cut whatever they want. If they want an extra heavy pallet, then price accordingly. We have one company that wants oddball smaller pallets, but want extra thick runners, around 2 1/2 thick, and full one inch boards. Its like a 30 x 36 pallet. We get around 22 bucks each. They only order maybe 2 times a year. Still, not bad money.
One more thing. Most pallet companies don't even understand what they are getting. Same with sawmills. They can't translate real to fake, or vice versa. When they go to sell a pallet to a company, their mindset is usually in the fake. I ran into this before. At one time, we cut a fair amount of lumber for a lumber broker. They wanted 4x4's. I priced at 3 1/2 x 3 1/2. Broker came back and said, its a go, but the want the full 4x4. I had to explain the price would be higher. He couldn't understand it, so I went over all the math. In the end, he found a mill that would cut full 4x4 but charge as if it was the 3 1/2. It doesn't sound like much difference, but it is.
I was hoping to find a thread like this here. Got a call this morning from a man looking for pallet lumber. Said they bought around 1.5 million bf of it last year and was wondering if we would be interested in supplying them some.
Now that is WAY more than I'm willing to even consider without knowing ALL the facts first. Being a new mill I'd consider supplying a limited amount each month but Only if it would be profitable.
I wasn't born yesterday and know of several mills that have gone under by getting locked into Bad contracts(mainly with the railroads for ties).
But if doing business with these guys could help towards getting another mill, then I'm willing to listen to them.
So I guess what I'm saying is, any advice gentlemen, and ladies? Like where to get info on current pallet lumber prices etc? I'm allready looking at having to have a knuckleboom to even consider this.
We have 4 loads of slag coming sometime in the next few days to finish getting the yard ready for all sorts of weather. Last week just about washed us out and it caused us to have to regrade everything.
The ground is Still mushy! Se we have no choice on the slag. Logs are heavy and the trucks and equipment to work with them even heavier. Got the website up and running so we will hopefully be getting more business sooner rather than later.
Getting a contract like this would surely help but I'm concerned about doing it right! So any advice or help would be Greatly appreciated.
Quotewas wondering if we would be interested in supplying them some.
How much of "some" are you thinking you want to contract for? What do you want to get for your lumber that you saw from your logs?
I have cut quite a bit of pallet cut stock for a 1 man operation and I havent ever had a contract. They tell me what they will buy and for how much or for my price and I cut it out as I am making other higher priced lumber or cants. They pay when I deliver. PC
Quote from: beenthere on January 22, 2013, 07:51:55 PM
Quotewas wondering if we would be interested in supplying them some.
How much of "some" are you thinking you want to contract for? What do you want to get for your lumber that you saw from your logs?
Both good questions beenthere. Cutting the proper widths and thicknesses is easy enough, but the lengths he is requesting will require a LOT of additional cutting. That translates to either less sawing or more employees. It's the time involved and expense of hiring more people that I'm looking at here.
I'll have to talk to him again and find out what he is looking for, price wise, but I'd like to have an idea before I get into that with him. I'll also have to do a test run to figure out just how long it would take to produce 1 pallets needed lumber. That's the only way I can think of to figure the amount we could produce in a day, week or month. And I don't want to take away from our ability to custom saw for people. That's why I'm trying to get an idea what people charge for their pallet lumber and about how long it takes them to produce so and so amount of it. I don't want to take bussiness from other sawmills in the area, but most of the original mills doing this have since gone out of bussiness. Retired or just produce for local pallet makers. We've visited just about every mill within 50 miles and most of them specialize in other things. These guys are out of San Antonio and evidently the mills around there have trouble getting timber. Something we in NE Texas don't have a problem with.
What kind of specs are they talking about? It sort of sounds like they want pallet stock that is cut to length, and separated. I don't know what type of equipment you have, but pallet plants use automated methods to get pallet stock from pallet cants. They most often double end trim to the length they need. If they're running 40" pallet stock, they'll cut 10' cants into three 40" cants. Then they'll run them through a gang saw and produce a pile of boards by the thickness they want. They also use automatic stackers. Its hard to compete against that type of automation.
To me, pallet lumber happens to be lumber that won't make grade. We accumulate that during the normal course of sawing. Depending on species and log grade, we won't get much if there is a higher calling. We saw pallet cants (3½x6) out of all logs that won't make ties. We also get some boards that are separated. But, we don't saw specifically for the pallet industry. None of this material is double end trimmed.
We don't have any contracts with any of our buyers. When we have a load, then we send it to them. If you produce a good product, you won't need a contract.
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on January 23, 2013, 06:09:50 PM
What kind of specs are they talking about? It sort of sounds like they want pallet stock that is cut to length, and separated. I don't know what type of equipment you have, but pallet plants use automated methods to get pallet stock from pallet cants. They most often double end trim to the length they need. If they're running 40" pallet stock, they'll cut 10' cants into three 40" cants. Then they'll run them through a gang saw and produce a pile of boards by the thickness they want. They also use automatic stackers. Its hard to compete against that type of automation.
To me, pallet lumber happens to be lumber that won't make grade. We accumulate that during the normal course of sawing. Depending on species and log grade, we won't get much if there is a higher calling. We saw pallet cants (3½x6) out of all logs that won't make ties. We also get some boards that are separated. But, we don't saw specifically for the pallet industry. None of this material is double end trimmed.
We don't have any contracts with any of our buyers. When we have a load, then we send it to them. If you produce a good product, you won't need a contract.
Yes Ron I've learned that since getting his call. Just another reason I'm getting ALL the info I can before I call him about this. Here are the specs for what they want. You'll see the name of the company at the top if anyone out there wants to inquire about producing for them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30097/palletstock.jpg)
Until I get more sure of what I'm doing, I'm taking it slow.
I make and sell 5/8x3½x40 for $.32 each and $16 on the seconds. Anita and I can run 2 bundles of 566 each in about 3 hours. Now that is all out of the sides of logs. I have a different , better market for the cants from the middle of the log. I know that we arent setting the world on fire at this pace but It beats throwing it away IMO. Some of what I cut up could be sold for flooring since it is mostly oak, but I havnt been able to find a local market for it.
We trim to length with a 14'' cutoff saw and run the blanks through a resaw to make the boards.
PC
Paul is doing good @ .32 for 5/8 x 3 1/2 x 40
Up here in Iowa his board is only worth .22 delivered.
Thank you Paul and ElectricAl! That is Exactly what I needed to know. So if I'm figuring this right paul, that's around $350 for a little less than a half days work. Now, this guy said that they have their own trucks, so I imagine they are gonna want a lower price. That being said, I'm thinking I'll either need more help or some sort of saw that will help make things more productive and easy.
That type of investment would Definately need a contract! I'll need some sort of guarantee that they will buy before I'll commit to buying more equipment.
We have the edger and two radial arm saws but maximizing production while minimizing time is the key to making a Decent profit with it.
Thank you gentlemen. I'm learning more everyday and owe it to good men like you.
The problem with a contract is that you're on the hook for volume and price. What happens when the price of pallet stock goes up and you're locked in? What happens when you can't get the logs?
The other thing to look at is where Paul says he gets his material from. They're side cuts and many would have been thrown into the slab pile, since he has no alternative market. Basically, he's taking a waste product and adding labor to make his product. There is no resource cost.
In this business profit = lumber value - log costs - mfg costs. See how well cutting pallet stock fits into that formula. You have to know how much it costs to make the stock. If you're cutting 5/8" on your mill, you'll be making a whole lot more cuts than cutting heavier cuts. The cost to make the cut is the same whether you're cutting a 5/8' board or a 4" board. As volume goes down per cut, sawing costs rise.
Just make sure you put a pretty sharp pencil to your calculations before you jump in too deep. Most guys have said that cutting pallet stock is a slow road to the poorhouse.
Ron is right. I am making those boards on the side. I pay $.25 for logs and sell cants for $.425 to $.47 and with the overrun on the scale I almost always get more than $.30 for sawing them up. The stuff off the sides is free you might say. I just cant stand to waste the stuff and the whole pallet cut stock deal makes a good paying job for my wife. It works well for us.
I would say watch out for the contract as well. You may get started and not like it. Dont get tied to something you arent sure of. I couldnt read the size sheet you posted but if you dont have a resaw, I would try to make stringers( usually a 1¼x3½x whatever length) or 6'' boards as they usually pay better. You move more bdftage with less cuts that way. PC
Learner, nothing to do with price. Get rid of the radial arm saws and just go to Harbor freight and get a compound miter, but leave it at a straight cut. The reason I say that is in a production situation where you can get in a hurry and get tired a radial arm is less forgiving, especially dull. I seen one fed too fast or the piece wasn't all the way to the back, not sure. Anyway the only thing that kept it out of the fellows belly was it ran out of cord. Just as a personal belief, leave them in the woodworking shop, not the sawmill.
Prices on cut stock here are 18 cents a board foot on actual measure. I leave those little boards in the slab.
QuoteAnyway the only thing that kept it out of the fellows belly was it ran out of cord
WH
Sorry, I gotta ask.... how does a radial arm saw "run out of cord" ??
I have a radial arm saw, and no way can it "run out of cord" so am curious as well as I'd like to know in case I am in grave danger I don't know about.
This one had a clamp holding the cord to the mast.
I can see a couple of these little pallet boards in most every slab we throw on the pile. So, what?, probably a $1.00/log or more could be recovered.
Sounds like a no brainer. But when you consider getting these little boards out and cutting to length takes lots of labor, investment in equipment, and a market that fits your production level and then balance the profit against what you could do with the same time doing something else, I feel comfortable pitching the slabs on the pile.
Learner,
If you are curious about how much money you won't make sawing 5/8 deck boards.
Pick your junkyest log, scale it to find the cost.
Start the timer . Load it, saw it, edge it, chop it, stack it, band it, move it, write an invoice, move it.
Stop the clock. Add 15% to the time for the real world.
Stringers should be more profitable.
Don't sign a contract. See if they'll give you a PO with "As Develops"
That way the price is set and you can produce as much or as little as you want.
You don't want to be committed to sawing for 10 cents when a custom sawing job comes along that pays 35 cents.
ElectricAl
Paul,
I'm impressed with your Pallet Market. 42 -47 cents for a cant is huge.
Up here a 3.5 x 6 in a whapping 35 cents delivered.
Pallet logs range from 25 - 30 cents.
Cut stock is .59 for a 1 3/8 x 3 1/2 x 36
.60 for a 1 1/8 x 3 1/2 x 48
Delivered.
Our buyer is 90 miles north of us. That takes a lot of the fun out of sawing.
ElectricAl
The $.47 is a tie, 7x9x8'8''.
The $.425 is a 3x4-10'6''. This is a friend of mine who builds heavy skids to haul water tank sides on. Sometimes they use as many as 300 pieces per week.
The 5/8x3½x40'' is actually paying something like $.53/ actual bdft and they go to a pallet company in Joplin.
Those are delivered prices but the farthest is about 20 miles from me.
I have been paying $.25 for logs and I can only get $.30 for a f4xf6 pallet cant. I cut a few of those out of logs that wont make a tie and are already cut to 8'.That company that buys the pallet cants will also buy a 1 1/4x3 1/2x 103'' stringer for $.1.48.
Oh the funny part is that pallet cant has to be perfect and the 3x4-10'6'' can have some bark.
I could probably make more on the side lumber to sell to a flooring plant , btu the closest one to me that is buying green lumber is about 120 miles. And yeah that kinda sucks the fun out of it. PC
This whole thing has bothered me from the get go, which is why I'm asking. We Do have an edger that will accept several blades so we've been talking about this as a future thing. When we can run a board through and get three boards out the other side. That will involve taking the edger to a machine shop for modification first though. Using the radial arm we could cut three or more at a time to length. I think it boils down to me talking to the man and getting an idea what they want and expect. ElectricAl, I think your dead on with the contract deal. Just let them know up front that I'll only provide what I can, when I can. If they like that fine, if not then nothing lost. After all the call from him came out of the blue. As for what to charge per bf, guess i'll just have to wing it unless some nearby suppliers pipe in on what they get. I'll try to get the guy to give me an idea, which i know will be low! But i can adjust from there.
Pallet cants in my area are $420/Mbf +. I've been hearing some a little higher. The big competition is ties and guys aren't going to switch from a steady tie market to a cant market that fluctuates. So, that keeps the cants up in price. The lowest its been in the past couple of years is about $350/Mbf.
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on January 25, 2013, 06:11:35 AM
Pallet cants in my area are $420/Mbf +. I've been hearing some a little higher. The big competition is ties and guys aren't going to switch from a steady tie market to a cant market that fluctuates. So, that keeps the cants up in price. The lowest its been in the past couple of years is about $350/Mbf.
Is that with a 3 clear face log that is 12" small end? and international scale
That's finished product. Has nothing to do with the log, grade or scale.
Pallet stock is slow here right now. Inventories are hig enough that they are paying less or not buying as much, due to good logging weather and availability to logs
Gday
My thoughts on pallets and del cutstock esp is the Sawmiller is doing all the hard work and the pallet maker is just about making 100% ontop of the cutstock price just for nailing the thing together and marketing . and its not hard to sell pallets its the same as lumber just a finnished product you are just moving higher up the food chain :)
I am sawing pine pallet cutstock @$550 to $580 per thousand bare in mind I pay roughly $210 to $250 per thousand for log thats based on 50% recovery and I do better than that the higher my recovery the lower my log imput costs are ;)
so that leaves me with roughly $300 per mbft for sawing and out of that it costs me $40 per mbft in del cost the govt take 10%gst (tax) of the top and I also have higher labor ,power and other imput costs but I am still going to make a dang good living ;)
but the ultimate goal for me is to switch to doing higher percentages of finished pallets to the final buyer over the coming year for that little bit of extra work ill be running at $950 to $1100 per mbft with a higher profit margin
Contracts OOHH they sound nice but just be carefull you do not want to put yourself over a barrel Mate :) :( >:( but to the same token I have also heard of good news contracts over the years also that have set people up :o :) ;) 8)
I think the trick is to consolidate your production capacity by that i mean grow slowly and aquire the gear you need to be productive I have tha capacity if I double shifted the laimet to do in the order of 3600 pallets a week @$19 to $22ea that is why I am doing cutstock atm and as I build up I can easily swap my cutstock sales over to my own pallet shop and sales needs ad the Meadows into the mix you have some serious production capacity per week :)
Profitable Cashflow is king and you need it to do anything or go anywhere with a business Im chasing production because it also puts me in the box seat as a supplier for larger ongoing contract jobs but they are and will be on My terms and prices ;)
I have also said this before and it goes for all timber sales if your dealing with a middle man there is the price they would like to pay and the price they are willing to pay ;)
Regards Chris
When it's their contract it always in my case seems to favor the other party in the long haul
When it's mine it usually works for me unless some drastic expenses come in
I like pay as you play the best !
I have never done pallets but guys I know who went broke trying were the ones locked into a deal and got way way over their heads
They wern't getting paid enough to begin with
Another time two brothers I knew wanted me to join in with them (I had a few tools and a forklift at the time they needed)in the pallet game odd size pallet and only the one customer I passed
At first they done ok. Then the company played the old pay you slower and slower game, so they borrowed to cover costs
Finally the customer went belly up
same guys have did this several more times on great deals
A take what you can give is best deal
Cause you have time for other customers
And they can see you can stay busy with out them some tend to pay better or quicker that way
CYOA comes from experience
As I get older I test the waters with a toe
Used to test by leaping from a plane into shark infested areas thinking I was playing going to be playing with dolphins :) :)
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on January 25, 2013, 07:30:05 AM
That's finished product. Has nothing to do with the log, grade or scale.
Well I don't know what I was thinking this moring sorry, when I was looking at the price you all get and what I would have to pay for pallet logs , and in NH It's 275 MBF, and sell wood for 420,
just can't do that here
We pay more than that on the stump. Veneer helps defray log costs, but if you're only buying logs, you lose that advantage. You're not only getting pallet cants from a log. The cants should be the lowest priced item in your log.
thats why I buy the best logs I can , not veneer but 3 cf and I get to sell all the wood for a good price,
selling lumber can be a hard thing some times
maybe I just need to learn more about more markets, thank for your input Ron Wenrich :)
In the South, sawing pallet lumber has historically been one of the best ways to go broke in the wood business.
I have to agree WDH. I'm thinking they found out we are a New sawmill and are hopeing to take advantage. Getting a call from someone wanting lumber though is nice. When I spoke to the guy, i was thinking they just wanted pallet cants. Not the actual boards. That's a lot more time and work involved. And as Meadows says, by then, all the work is done. All you need is a nail gun to build the pallets yourself! And we have all the neccesary equipment for that so. I'm thinking this man will have to really entice me to want to supply his company with pallet boards! ;)
Gday
All very good valid points have been brought up here . ;) ;D
I do things and think little differently because i have to. Now most Sawmills in the world chase blocks or timber or resource in the Med to High quality log resource and every year those logs get harder to find as more producers look for the same grade logs to produce Hi/Med & Low quality products and suffer profit dilution along the way that comes with it .
Now filp things around where you process the low to med range low stumpage cost blocks with a reasonable % of Med+ grade logs. And produce timber the other way around where you can profitably produce low grade products but when you do get those better quality logs you treat them as such with a higher return :) :)
Now there are alot of people who have had blocks that have either High graded and alot of lower grade trees left or in the case of Plantations seed or tree quality or lack of management was variable to say the least now big loggers come in and offer bugger all for the timber ($1 to $3 a ton for the lot as pulp) or the blocks to small for them to shift the big gear in to do the harvesting. I tend to offer $10 to$15 a ton across the board but I dont cut pulp but Jack my partner and logging contractor dose do treated fence posts (small rounds ) form anything for 3"> to 7" or 8" dia which gives dang good fiber recovery and return to the plantation owner The block we are in atm was passed up buy everyone else and there will be two or three thousand ton of log in it and we have a heap of blocks like that to do :)
Now what that dose for my business is those good logs that do come in I can produce good timber out of it dry,dress or treat it and retail it without loosing or having alot of capital tied up in production costs or if I have the product sitting there as it cost me less to produce than buying higer grade logs and also I have cashflow coming in from the lower grade products which are the easy ones to move ;)
Im working in the butt end of the industry some would say but where have i got to go from there ;) :D ;D hell I even spent two years sawing graded building and pallet timber out of a graded pulp log resource which was not pretty and that mill had a dang good profit margin :) :)
Just something to think about ;)
Regards Chris
Learner, you're right about being "new meat" People try to take advantage of that. A few months ago I was speaking to the mgr. of a large mill about sawing logs for them that were not profitable for them to run thru their own mill.
We talked of me setting up on their site to reduce costs, but due to insurance issues it was not possible. After more discussion, and talking about milling costs for their mill, and my own sawing overhead, we started to talk numbers for what he was going to pay. What he offered was right where my costs were, I would have made wages only, with no room for profit.
Since then we havn't had discussions. I told him I had to wait to be sure what my overhead was going to be, so maybe something could develop but I don't expect it to. But, nothing ventured nothing gained. It was a good experience and I learned alot from it
The problem is everyone is trying to make profit for their own individual businesses
and the more businesses involved the harder it is to be viable and the sad part is you just have to walk away from some work due to that instead of being fair buyers will screw you rite down to just above cost I said no to a $40k a month job the other day :) :) Thing he dont know is I already know where the bloody lumber was heading and he just lost his cut ::) ;) :D
Its taken along time but I will be incharge of costs from go to wo Logging,Trucking Ect will all be done at a little above cost so the mill turns a better profit as a whole .
Rooster I remember that thread now they have said what they would like to pay Just keep in touch and wait em out and let those logs pile up in their yard and I am sure they will come back with a better offer those logs are costing them money sitting there Mate ;)
Regards Chris
Does anyone know what a fully assembled pallet would bring in central pa? This thread has me thinking about rainy day work, not only that, if its profitable it would enable a logger to utilize timber otherwise not worth it, and in the process benefit the landowner.
Timburjack be careful what you wish for. The big mill produce pallet lumber from there low grade logs and the pith of there good logs. They sell this stuff at cost or below to get to the grade lumber in the good logs. It would be hard to compete with them on a price for pallet lumber.
So-- a sweetgum log is a railroad tie encased in pallet wood, eh?
More properly, "encased in warped pallet wood" :).
Quote from: WDH on January 28, 2013, 09:21:57 PM
More properly, "encased in warped pallet wood" :).
So true.
customsawyer i see where you are coming from but after reading meadow miller's post it got me thinking. That market and price is down under, but if the only transportation cost would 200 to get it to a mill, and the wood would be leaving as a finished product, that would eliminate various middlemen and trucking costs. Given a market could be found for a low volume production operation [say 500 a week] and the raw material cost would be 20 cent scragg logs, it would seem that it would be competitive with an operation that is buying cants for 40 cents. Obviously it would totally depend on what price a pallet would bring, if it is $10-$15 that makes it a lot different than $19-$22.
Allright guys, stop knocking sweetgum! :D There are much worse woods out there. I like sweetgum. Probably because most others don't! ;D
Quote from: learner on January 29, 2013, 08:32:28 PM
Allright guys, stop knocking sweetgum! :D There are much worse woods out there.
Name them.
Post Oak for one.
Sweetgum is a great pallet wood!
Quote from: learner on January 29, 2013, 08:55:28 PM
Post Oak for one.
At least post oak makes good firewood, unlike sweetgum!
I think I thought of three that are decidedly worse than sweetgum.
1. Ailanthus
2. Mimosa
3. Poison Sumac.
Hey Hey now dont go knocking my post oak.
We have a lot of post oak, red oak and black oak. Post oak is the most dependable to make a tie out of them. Ifn they are good enuf to tie on the ends, they will usually make one, but red and black oaks will sometimes have bug eaten out voids and other problems show up as ya saw into them. PC
Timburjack, it's hard to compete with the Amish pallet makers I've heard. Unless you operate on a larger scale
Learner, whats wrong with your Post Oak? It saws just fine here as long as it is a quality log to start with.
lots of nice post oak around here also as long as its not the ones with the twist or large limbs not much over head high.
The red oaks have more problems
May be the difference in the area you live.
These are some random thoughts, most of which I have expressed at one time or another. Being I am snowed in, and don't want to watch Oprah or Jerry Springer, figure this is a good time to do it regarding pallet lumber.
This is all aimed at those that run bandmills. Not the big operations like Ron runs.
Big mills don't like doing oddball sizes. That gives you an advantage. Use it. Price where you can make money.
There are the good guys and the bad guys in the pallet business. There are a fairly high number of bad guys. Over time, you will learn who they are. Try not to learn the hard way. They will leave you holding the bag. They tend to resurface under other names. They sell cheaper than they can make them, except if they don't bother to pay for the wood.
Don't overlook companies that make their stuff in house.
Know the rules about overseas shipping. I have run into a few times where someone is shipping overseas, and didn't even know about the regulations about heat treating. I don't recommend you get a chamber and everything associated with it, unless you are getting into it in a big way. See if you can piggyback or work with someone that does. Between the monthly auditing fees, cost of stamps, paperwork, cost of natural gas or propane, it doesn't pay well if you are doing small batches. Just make sure your customer understands that pallet, skid, or box has to be heat treated and stamped if going overseas.
You have to have the logs on hand to cut it. That is, again and again, pallet customers on specialty stuff have customers order after they have run out of pallets. We usually have some stuff cut ahead in various length in cants and such that we can simply run through the resaw. For some reason, companies don't order until they grab the last pallet, and discover they already used that one. Then it is panic mode.
Building specialty pallets as opposed to cutting the lumber for a pallet company making them can be profitable, but usually that company is knocking them together for not much margin.
Do not underestimate your ability to price in profit. True story here. We cut some 7/8 by 2 1/8 and 7/8 x 7/8 sticks as we call them. Pain in the butt. The guy we were cutting them for went under, and a national pallet chain took over. They got angry because we couldn't get them quite fast enough for them, and declared they had their own sawmills and would cut them themselves. Everyone around the mills cheered.
That lasted for about a month. Then they wanted us to start cutting them again. I asked why. Said their mills couldn't do them in the right sizes to fit their needs. We upped the price and they didn't say a word.
To really make it work, you need a gang edger, a single head resaw with board return will do fine. The guy catching boards on the end will be as busy as he can be. A popup saw or radial arm saw as well. All these items can be found cheap these days.
In short, price to make money, seek out the specialty markets, get into sync with your customers, and deliver on service, timeliness, and quality. Whatever you do, don't try to run with the big boys. Won't work. But, you don't need to.
Thanks Kansas, I have gotting in to the apple box thing a little. started cutting for the apple guys by the hr, now they know each outher :D
now they found me, and some don't have trees, I do ;D so well see how it gos :D
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apples trees as far as you can see, I have sold 4000' bf so far, and all crazy sizes