Is there such a thing as a product that's too good? How much quality are you willing to give up to save money?
I think of this every time I pick up one of the $2.00 tape measures we have around the mill. They're miserable things to work with and they don't last long. But we also have a couple of Sears Craftsman tapes that cost over $10 new (when we bought them years ago) and they work great. When they break or just wear out, you take them back and they give you a new one. We must be on or third replacement. So... What's the better bargain?
Lets say a basic mid-sized hydraulic bandmill of good quality, engineering, factory warrantee, documentation, and free tech support, quick availability of replacement part, cost $20,000.00.
Would you be willing to give up warrantee, documentation, tech support, and availability of replacement parts for say $1,000.00?
How about paint quality? An industrial quality powder coat paint system is a major cost. Would you rather have one that had just a flash coat of paint shot on thick and thin, missed spots, runs, paint over weld slag, rust and dirt if the price was lowered $1,000.00?
How about compromise in construction? The use of bolts through oversized holes instead of machined and hardened pins that are fitted through bushings with grease fittings? The use of bushings instead of ball barrings? The use of pillow block bushing instead of a wet bearing housing? The use of plain, low-grade steel bolts and hardware instead of high grade plated hardware with locking provisions? The use of soft steel where hard steel should be used? If it cut another $1,000.00 of the price?
What if the mill was not professionally engineered and backed up by product testing and development? The builders not trained and qualified? No quality inspection program? If that would cut another $1,000.00.
How about if every corner was cut to the point where it was still able to function but without any consideration for safety or? Another $1,000.00?
So what I'm asking, if you could get the same size, featured, and functional mill for $5,000.00 less, would that be a temptation?
My time's too valuable to be messing with junk. Two years ago I was in the market for a new round baler for the farm. I looked at every brand on the market and purchased a John Deere. Why? Quality. John Deere builds a quality machine and stands firmly behind it. After a week's use the salesman, who happens to be one of the best baler mechanics around, stopped by the farm to see how things were going. On his own time too. We were having some small problems with it, mostly with the automatic oiling system. He borrowed one of my hired men and my toolbox and worked an hour on the thing, fine tuning different things. No charge to me. Not too many of the off-brands of farm equipment will do this. You got to make hay when the sun shines so you have to have reliable equipment.
Bib,
Those Craftsman Tapes are $14 each.
I have 2 for the sawmill. Linda has 2 for her edger plus we each have 2 spares.
I like the manual lock and Linda likes the lever lock.
The store is 45 miles away so when we break them they get tossed in my truck. When I get close to the store I'll stop.
Those little people get all flustered when I spill five broken tapes and parts on their counter. ;D
A tape will last me 30 to 60 days. Most of the paint is gone off the bottom of the tape, and it breaks around the 18" mark. Never past 36"
Linda can get several months out of hers.
We have 10 tapes total for the business. $150 up front but has not cost us sense ;)
I promised myself years ago that if I cant buy the good stuff Im not buying 8)
I agree that you can pinch pennies and still get the job done but when it comes to my tools and sawmill stuff, I buy what I believe to be the best.
To many times in the past I have cussed myself for buying junk.
Whats tough now is that I want more stuff, and have to wait for the funds to buy it ;D
$20k you can haggle that down to $19k and still keep the package in most case's
you got to think of your time sorting crap out, even new things need sopport the drop would hove to be a lot more than 2-3 thou, i've built and repaired lots of machines in my time and looking back some should have been scapped as soon as they stopped, but then there is the feel good to rebuilding good gear, and the fact that some times it is only something small or quick to sort out
$1000 saved is 28hrs of down time plus non warranty parts to buy $1000 sounds like a lot but it dont buy much these days
The way it's worded it's none but for me I look for the best "value" for my buck. Giving up the factory warrantee for a grand would be nuts but there is a price point that I would do it. I bet even Bibby would wave the warrantee to get a new loaded LT-70 for 20 grand, that would be a great value. Am I right Bibby?
Company "A" has a great tool at $20,000 and you will be completely set for 5 years with it. As best as you can tell but you do know even the best tool can give troubles and have you down from time to time.
Company "B" has an ugly thing thats sold as is, hacked together some and is likely to have some bugs in it that will need worked out for $6,000. It's nothing you want to show off to folks but will do what you need it to do quite well as best as you can tell.
Witch do you buy? I think it will come down to money for a business. Witch will be the better value to do the job that needs done by "that" business witch will very from one business to another. Maybe you are Harold and can fix up that cheep one in a week or two or you could need to be working it today and cant mess with it. Good example is hand tools, Snap-on is great stuff but more and more you see Craftsman in pro shops. Craftsman is not as good as Snap-on but is a far better value for the buck. ;)
Andy
I find that equipment that has some blemish defects usually has plenty of other problems that are not cosmetic. I hate to work on equipment, I expect it to be engineered and built so it works day in and day out without alot of tweaking. Last thing I need to be doing is running for parts or making adjustments. We bought a third party loader for our JD tractor. 3 years later it has needed constant adjusting and parts replacement. The lower cost has been eaten up by down time, parts and labor on adjustments. Now it needs to be replaced. Thing that impressed me with mills were all the 20+ year old orange ones that had tons of hours and years of use and were still making good lumber. I didn't need a salesman to tell me what was good I could see it for myself. How much it's worth when you sell one used is another factor, every time I trade in a JD tractor I get almost if not more than I paid for it. I expect the same out of my mill, look at what the used ones are selling for. It tells you how good they are new.
I bought my mill, cause it was $15000 cheaper than the WM.
Never again will I look for the bargain machine after what I've been through with this one. I've spent well over that in replacement parts and downtime, not to mention lost sales because of it.
I bought a WM edger last October. 8)
Did get $600 of the price because it was a demo with 30hrs on it.
I am generally a cheap sob, and tend to buy used stuff. At this point in my life, I still like tinkering and fixing things. I learn a lot about the machinery that way. Also, I don't saw full time.
That being said, if I were to commit to a new sawmill and make a living with it, I would not think twice about spending the full 20 grand. Even if it meant taking a hit on the financing. The better the quality and support, the quicker the equipment will pay for itself.
my dad allways said it only cost a little more to go 1st class, but in this day an age i dont know if it is possable.
duke
If I were going to making a living off of the piece of equipment I'd want the best piece of equipment my money could buy -- proven service/support would be worth the extra $$. Paint I'm color blind not an issue. Attention to detail rounded off sharp edges --minimal pinch points etc are signs of a quality product in my mind I'd pay extra for that as well. Problem is you need to own a fixer upper to know what you don't know...hindsight is 20/20 and you get what you pay for.
It was a good point brought up, it depends if you use the tool to make money.
If I need tool for one job, I don't run out and buy the most $$$ thing around. I buy the one that gets the job done.
If I'm gonna use it all the time, I pay the $$$ to get one that will last.
If I'm gonna get one that will be loaned to people, I get the cheapest darn one there is cause it will come back broken no matter how good it is!
Price has to be part of the evaluation of the purchase of a produce. If product ABC balances out equal to XYZ, then the one with the lower price would most likely be chosen.
Another thing to consider is how well a product holds it's value over the time you expect to use it. I'd guess portable mills change hands about every five years. Owner's retire (for the final time), business take off and there is the need to upgrade. Some quit the business and sale their mill.
So I always consider the resale value of a major purchase. What I call the total owning cost is the first price minus what you could expect to recover when it's sold some time down the road. In our study above, the buyer of the $20,000.00 mill may well recover the additional cost on resale over the $15,000.00 mill that probably won't bring much in say 5 years.
Only problem with our Sears tapes is, they tend to walk off. Our youngest son tends to "borrow" anything he needs. But I suspect maybe a customer or two have picked one up to measure something and forgot to put it back. >:(
Helper Brooke helps Mary measure logs. One was "1 hour and 45 minutes" long the other day. :D
Ray your right, you do generally get what you pay for. However if you have a Chevy budget and a Chevy will do, get a Chevy. A weekender who goes out and buys a $30K
LT40HD probably has more money than brains. Sure if its your livelyhood and you have the revenue to support it, than sure, go buy the LT40HD. Even then I think you'll struggle. Its like anything else, you get back what you put into it, and what you put into it is hard work.
$20,000.00 None
$19,000.00 If no warrantee, documentation, tech support, etc.
$1,000 seems like a lot of tech support.As for warrantee,thats only as good as the company that is giving the warrantee.If a company makes a good mill they don't really need a warrantee.
$18,000.00 If also poor paint and finish.
I could buy a lot of paint for $1,000
.
$17,000.00 If also corners were cut in manufactur
That would depend on what they where cutting.But if it didn't make the mill less durable that then I don't see a problem.
$16,000.00 if also not engineered, tested, and built by trained builders
Thats a loaded question.I'd have to see it run.
$15,000.00 If also all corners were cut to the point were it was unsafe
Again,for $1,000 I could grind off the point that were unsafe 8)
A $20,000.00 item with no warranty, documentation, tech support, etc. is not a $20,000.00 item. Support is everything. Documentation, spare parts and tech support is the difference in a quality item and a not so good item. Would you buy a new truck that was never documented and has no available spare parts at all? I think not!
Bibby,
You need a button that says " $22,000 for same quality, but prefered color". The real question is will people pay 10% more to get what appears to be the same quality from a bigger name? ;)
VA-Sawyer
VA,
Sometimes I think it may just work the other way. When we got started sawing back in 94 there was one small band sawmill owner in our area that did custom sawing. He also had a solar kiln, sold lumber and had an extensive woodwork shop. He had the market cornered.
After we had our mill for about a year, I got around to stopping in to visit with him. Announced right off who I was and we had a mill south of town. He said he'd heard of me.(He should have, half of his custom sawing customers were now coming to us.) We talked about an hour.
He said when he was looking into a band mill there wasn't too many choices. He drove to Indy and knew right off when he walked into the big office building with hardwood paneling and woodwork that it wasn't the mill for him. Too big of a company. Too much overhead. Said everyone was friendly and spent the day showing him the mills and demoing them.
He later learned of a band mill that was being built by the Amish or Mennonites somewhere in Iowa or Wisconsin. He went up to visit them and was impressed to find it was a family business that filled in between farming and making other farm equipment. He bought their mill.
I did have occasion to see some of the lumber he produced. It was by far the most atrocious I've ever seen come off any mill of any type or brand. Well could have been the sawyer's fault but he was a skilled craftsman at building all kinds of fine woodwork so I can't see how he could be so bad at running a sawmill.
His custom sawing customers started to gravitate to us. They all had stories to tell of the lumber produced by the other guy and all were amazed at the accuracy of the lumber coming off our mill. He'd really given band mills a bad name.
I'm sure if he had it to do over again, he would make the same decision.
The inmates at the prison where I have been selling ERC can't beleive how little planeing the lumber takes. Seems the guy they were getting it from didn't bring them as good of quality of lumber.
Mine, a little $6000 manual mill made one at a time with no manual to read.
Their previous source, orange.
I have been by the guys place and it looks like he doesn't get around to everything he means to. Not sure which mill he has as I didn't get out due to the fact he was not there. I think it was a 40.
I am not much more than a hobby sawyer but I try to buy quality that I can pay for. Hate payments. Fancy never impresses me.
I say that, and I just traded for a new Tahoe last weekend and I didn't have much over half.
Is that talkin outa both sides of my mouth?
;D
I'd build it myself before I would pay someone else for shoddy work.
When I'm spending that kind of $ on anything, quality has got to be up if not at the top, then 2nd. On a situation as this, quality and safety go very hand in hand to my point of view; especially considering it would be nice to KEEP both your hands...attached to your arms and not the mill that is. :D
Id have to agree with VA.....Its sorta like blue jeans...you can buy Levis or you can buy JC Penny....both are equally good but youll pay more for the Levis simply because they are Levis.
Saying 1 brand is " better " than another typically comes down to personal preference. You obviousally have to draw the line somewhere but its useally easy enuf to see which is a good product and which is not.
???lets see, buy a new Chevy or a used Cadillac, can't answer that? well both in good shape,both do the job,both have good dealers. Cad. better paint,better engine,more comfort, both same price, the Cad will resale better, last longer, Bibbyman, bet you drive a Cad? Me to. Duh---Duane
Nope. Not even close :D
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/wsbibmobile.JPG)
94 Buick Roadmaster with every option.
I agree, :D I can do my own shoddy work!
QuoteI'd build it myself before I would pay someone else for shoddy work.
Bibbyman, I believe the word they would use to describe your car here would be Pimpmobile! 8) 8) Sweet black!
QuoteNope. Not even close :D
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/wsbibmobile.JPG)
94 Buick Roadmaster with every option.
Bibby,
You really have a good thread going here.
Levi's vs. JC Penny jeans.... no contest, the Levi's will last about three times as long for me. I don't even buy JC penny ones anymore. Maybe I need to. Have they gotten better lately ?
New Chevy vs. Used Caddy. I guess you could say I bought the later. I got an '88 WM LT40 HD for about 1/2 the price of a new one. I had to do a fair amount of work on it, and spent some money on parts. It is a much better mill now than when it left the factory as it has most of the factory suggested upgrades. Still, it doesn't have some of the things I want, like roller toeboards and the new style clamp. The real reason for my going this route was the ability to recover almost all my investment if the business doesn't work out. It would be almost impossible to do that if I had bought new.
Good Lumber vs. Shoddy. It is easy to produce shoddy boards on my mill. Just leave a blade on long after it gets dull, let sawdust and woodchips build up between the cant and the bedrails or dogs, stick your head where the sun don't shine and then crank the feed speed up so high the engine bogs down. You can bet that there won't a straight or square edge in sight. Then again, it isn't all that hard to produce good lumber on my mill either. I feel that the operator is about 95% of product quality. It's more than just wanting a good job. You have to get into it enough to understand what is causing the problem and how to fix it. Part of that is hands on experience, but it also take some study time in the books as well.
Orange vs. Brand X Bandsaw. I bought Orange this time. I will look the field over next time as well but, I will be suprised if I find something that seems better than Orange.
VA-Sawyer
Coin in the purse is the limiting factor alot of the time. My father-in-law is a good man and a good hand with equipment. He spent years in the oil fields and will buy the cheapest tool there is for every job and cuss the whole time using it. One day while working on his tractor I went down to the shop and got my air tools and he noticed a differance most quick on how the job went. Now he is buying better tools and taking better care of them while getting more work done. I often buy lowgrade tools for jobs where most any thing will work and there is a good chance I will not need it more then once. But things I depend on to make my living or keep me safe I get the best I can afford that is of good quality and serviceable.
After many years in the Army I came to realize that the things that I defended my country with and my own person was made by the lowest bidder. ??? ??? You have to give our service men and women extra credit.
ARKANSAWYER
One of the things that makes me a believer about a sawmill is, when a sawmill is ran in the shootout and or timber shows. If I had a cheaper sawmill to "sale" I would make sure that I took it to the shoot out and paul bunyan shows to promote it. That's what makes potential customers believe that the mill is a good one. When the potential customers see it run, see the production rates ,at like the shoot out and price tags, then people can make their choices.
I have a stanley contractor's grade tape measure that I bought at Lowes. But I have done carpentry work for 15 years so my thinking is different from someone who may only need to do 1 carpentry job.
Luke
Way I figure it is if you cant afford the $20k machine, go and spend $10k on a second hand one, cos if it's built properly it will still be a good machine (well maybe after a few wear and tear parts are replaced)
The $20k machine will be the one that is still worth $10k after a few years use... the $15k one will have been thrown on the trash heap in disgust.
So even for the original purchaser, one had a machine that did 3 years good service and is still worth something, :) the other lost $15k >:(
A friend in my area and former customer "got the bug" to buy a sawmill early last winter. He languished over what model mill to get for a couple of months (But he knew what color it was going to be). Then he languished over new vs. used. He decided he'd look for a late model used LT40HDG25. I got him in contact with Sawmill Exchange, TMS, etc. He found a couple and talked a deal on them. He even decided he was going to buy one but when he called back, it had been sold. So, like a lot of us, he decided if he was going to pay most of a new price for a mill out of warrantee, he may as well get a new one with the options he wanted. That he did. Picked up his new LT40HDG25 a couple of weeks ago.
That's pretty much what happed to us back in 94 when I went looking at mills. Talked to three WM owners and they'd all sell their mills – at the price they paid for them – and, I'd have to give them the money first then wait until their new mill cam in. We too bought a new mill.
Now here in a few months (or weeks) when all the mills go up in price because of the steel shortage, that two year old mill at 2002 new price is going to look a lot better.
If you are talking about a mill, it doesn't take more than a few cut corners to cost you a few days of milling. How much did you save? I grew up on a farm and know the value of equipment that works when you need it, and does it right.
If I take a look in my "toolbox", most of my tools are of very good quality. I have a few "clinkers" that I usually buy for situations where the tool may become "sacrificial" or is almost certain to get lost. I have a couple of cheap adjustable wrenches that passed my "in store test" and won't be used for heavy work. However, I won't buy a crappy screwdriver. That is a world of heartache waiting to happen. Blowing half a day to go back to the shop to drill out and remove a screw just isn't worth it. Besides, a good screwdriver makes a great pry bar (I have't poked my eye out yet) and a cheap one doesn't. The only no-brand power tool I have is a 4" angle head grinder from Harbor Freight that I bought for occasional use, but have used and abused the stuffings out of and it still works great. Not bad for $12. Otherwise you see the usual suspects (PC, Bosch, DeWalt, Sears, etc). My last purchase was a used Stihl 066. Admittedly, you aren't going to find a 100cc "off-brand" chainsaw, but I wasn't willing to compromise even if there was. I bought used good one when I couldn't afford a new good one.
I guess I fit your profile, Bibby.
Good thread ;D
Of course there is no one way, if there was, everyone would have a Woodmizer......JUST KIDDING..... :D :D :D.......Everything has prettywell been said and, all I can add is that the older I get, the wiser my choices seems to be...OR...Im turning into an arrogant old fool(seen lotsa them yup) :D :D
Levi's are all made in overseas now. They are no longer any better than JC penny, or any discount jeans.
Now this is a slanted and emotional poll...
The warrantee is about useless on most of the equipment we buy because most failures are out of the warantee period.
Paint isn't Much better, My machine is getting kinda faded. So what it's 6 yrs old. and that ain't nothing compared to the older circle mills that you can't kill.
I am not too impressed with all the "tech" involved when I called and wanted to upgrade to a newer capabilitiy only to find I would have to buy an entire new machine to get the part I wanted...NOW THATS MARKETING...!
Good Steel properly fit and welded, Adjustable where needed. With good bearings these machines should last a lifetime not 5 or 10 yrs. I just had to weld a turner arm that was improperly welded from the factory, I just didn't get the pressure right on it for 6 yrs when the weld popped off cleanly down what otherwise looked like a fine weld. (It's welded right now) just needs some fresh orange paint.
If I had a nickle for every time someone tripped over the tire they put right in the way... I'd have a new blade or two too. (so much for safety) didn't paint the axle safety yellow either.
Actually The only trend I see in what people want portable sawmilling is what ever is comming next year.
As always, My opinion is to pay for the capabilities not the brand name. Look at the needs, options, capabilities, then matrix the appropriate machine vs your budget.
Eric
Interesting pole, not one really worth a statictian's minute. Ya might say its a bit biased. Of course, one will pick the first option. But that's not the story, not even close. Everyone buys at their tolerance level. I buy new sawmills. I've owned four of them. Warrantees are great and if you have an orange machine that you are pushing day in and day out, you'll need it. I used to be on a first name basis with my UPS driver and the parts guy in Hannibal NY.
I've got the swing mill now. Came with a warrantee I'll probably never use, one because I can ususally get what I need quicker over the counter, and two because there's just not much that goes wrong. HOWEVER - watch your warrantee wording. Peterson says 2 years on the FRAME. Come to find out, they only warrant the transmission for 6 months. Of course, they don't publish this. You have to have problems before they let you know its out of warrantee. Fortunately, my situation wasn't fatal and I figured out the problem without the promised parts that they didn't send. In the end, no big deal - right? ::)
I guess I could have set the poll up "upside down" – that is, start out with a barebones mill and add to it until some point where the price/value is too much.
The numbers were grossly rounded for simplicity sake. The example could have been about any product or service for that matter. I happened to pick bandmills because I've heard people say; "I don't need a mill that good." and to me it's like saying; "Give me the tough steak, I like to chew."
I had no hidden agenda or subliminal message in making this post. And I didn't know what to expect or what I expected to get out of it. I'm just glad we had a good conversation.
Thanks to all.
When I started looking at buing a mill back ikn 93 . The first thing my dad said to me is * If your going to buy something like this ... get something to work with not work on....* Dat's what I did
i don't beleive in cutting corners , and I hate having to do something over because it was not done wright the first time around I'm a firm beleiver in that you get what you paye for ...