Hey Guys,
I'm working on an article that I've been told is a bad idea for several years... which of course is why I think it deserves to be addressed :D
Using Dan Cassen's new book (specifically chapter 5) as a starting point, he and I are writing a general introductory article about the proper way to use your own sawn lumber in structures you don't have to hide from the county. ;)
We know that we'll have to give a general outline, and then provide as much info about specific exceptions/regions that do things a bit differently, etc. We're also planning on including a "For More Information" section.
So, what are your experiences? If you have any with this subject, please share. We want the article to shed light on an often obscure subject, enough so that people have a general idea of the process, and know where to go next for specific rules in their area. Your input will be very valuable in determining what we decide must be included. Thanks in advance for any input! :)
Great subject! I don't have any answers (for better or worse we're kind of free do our own thing up here) but I'm interested hear the responses. :P
JM
In my county, all construction and framing lumber has to be grade stamped. That does not make the lumber any better than what you can saw yourself, it is just that it is the rules. Much home produced lumber is better than what you find in the Big Box Stores, but that does not matter. This puts the small producer at a decided disadvantage.
In my county, unless it's a 'dwelling', there are no rules........build anything you want/out of anything you want to use. You DO have to have a building permit, which costs 10ยข per square foot; all the inspector does is make sure that you're "x" number of feet from the property line. If it's a dwelling, one's own lumber can be used, but at some point it will have to be inspected before it can be occupied (same with plumbing, electricals, etc). You can also wire, put in plumbing, etc. your-own-self. btdt.
my cabin in Colorado is a post and beam structure. All the timbers had to be approved by an engineer licensed in Colorado. I sawed all the wood here in Florida and transported to the site in Colorado. Using SYP the engineer had to do some homework since that is not a normal wood for there, so when he had a question he just made the timber sizes bigger. Sure made for a over built structure.
How and here do you go to get your lumber and timbers grade stamped?w
in the south you contact Southern Pine Inspection Bureau for pine lumber
You might try American Lumber Standard, there is tons of information on their website, so you should be able to find someone to grade stamp your lumber.
Sorry I can't be any help but I'm very interested in what other Nebraskans have to say about our laws (if any chime in). Sounds like a great topic to me, and something I've always wondered about here.
Rubber Stamps are cheap and easy to aquire. Be sure and use WHITE pine if you dont have a kiln.
Connecticut build codes require graded lumber for framing for all structures. The codes are set by the state but enforced by the towns and cities (there's no county level government in CT). It's always possible that you could get a local inspector to cut you some slack, but it would be a hit or miss proposition.
Whenever I get an initial contact from a potential customer who indicates that want to use lumber from my mill for framing anything they're going to get a building permit for, I tell them to talk to the town building department before they take one more step in that direction. I rarely hear from these people again.
--Peter
In my county as far as I know they only care that you get a building permit for buildings that will not be inhabbited at all or for a certian percentage of the year. As mentioned earlier all the inspector dose is make sure its on your property. As long as they get there money they dont care but as far as a residence i am not sure.
Quote from: Solomon on January 17, 2013, 11:24:31 AM
Rubber Stamps are cheap and easy to aquire. Be sure and use WHITE pine if you dont have a kiln.
That's funny. Actually, I got a message back from my County Planning department and my property falls into the sparcely populated category (duh) and I fit under the provision of R301.1.1.1 that states I can use owner-provided lumber with no mention of grading! One more phone call/question for clarification and I will be good to go. 8)
Arkansas has adopted the national building code. The state delegated enforcement to local government but they didn't send along any money. Most cities and towns have code enforcement. A lot of counties do not have the money (or will) to hire code enforcement folks. This gives some rural people the mistaken impression we do not have building codes. We don't have code enforcement cops.
I get a little concerned custom sawing. Somebody comes up with the bright idea to use 2 X 6 erc floor joists, spanning 12' on a deck. Of course 2' on center. Probably gonna get told I'm not interested in sawing for them.
It all works well until a substandard house falls down and hurts somebody. Than the lawyers earn their money.
Basically with all the different standards especially umungst different counties/jurisditions...........the chapet will be a quick read.
Check with you local building authorities, be it city, county, state,province,territory, or federal body. There are too many different governing rules out there along with the caveat that some accepted county rules do not follow the basic federal rules with in essence makes then nul and void, in the big picture.
when the ubc (uniform building code) first became law, wisconsin was everything needed a grade stamp. after a couple of years myself and a very good inspector kept lobbying the state and finely they relaxed the ruling for "native' lumber. non graded lumber can be used in non-structual areas(walls,headers ect.)
2 yrs ago my parents were putting on an addition on their house, my dad asked me if the project needed to be inspected. i called my good friend the inspector and asked about inspection. he told me once the first "dwelling" was inspected you could put a million dollar addition without ever needing inspection. go figure :)
Just finished building a house In charleston sc. I milled all the pine floors,walls and ceiling. Asked the inspectors a number of times about my wood. They had no problems with finish materials, never asked about framing. Did not have time to mill finish and framing wood. I was told sc has a native species law that allows you to prove the strength of you own milled wood. That being said I also built a woodstove flue heated kiln, that was on site during the build. Nobody including the inspectors could believe how well the floors and beaded board turned out. The only problem I had was even setting the electrical boxes out 3/4" they were not all flush with the wood.(my framers were terrible) so I had to use plastic slip-in box extenders,this was so electrical was isolated from a combustible. I can also say that all of the 16000 15ga nails in my nails are there ;). I would not use non kiln dried wood in any house, or air dried and kiln sterilized. Made the floors in my old house and had a bug burrow out 6 months after construction. When we tore that house down I could see it ate about 36" of wood before it came out. We finished our 1638 sq build in September of 2012 and took 17 very long months(living with mother in law :-\)
In my neighborhood(western NY) there is the city...town...county...and state codes, most of them adhere to the state code as it is written. my land is in the township jurisdiction and for a recent project of mine, my architect told me that my lumber had to be stamped by a state licensed engineer. Just so happens that the county engineer has a private practice and works regularly with many drafters...i called him, but something like a $500 retainer made me rethink it. Never even discussed this with the bld inspector, just made myself some new discreet plans.
excellent topic, one that gets glossed over a lot, i think!
I built several garages from fresh cut ruff sawn but I will never forget the nice house I built with the stuff. The Balsam and White Pine studs were great but Spruce and Red Pine are worthless because they wanted to twist. I cut the stuff in the Fall and got it milled and stuck and stacked. In the Spring, I framed up the house as I had also layed up the foundation the previous Fall. Well, I was doing this on the side and managed to finish the last of the drywall & paint
and carpet were completed in the following Fall. I managed to rent to a buddy that same Fall and he heated the place with wood.
Well, that nice wood heat kept the place dry and warm over the Winter. But it also kiln dried my framing lumber at every nail in the dry wall pushed out of the finished drywall. I got stuck redoing all the popped nails heads and provided another coat of paint. i learned lots in those days but never had that problem again.
imshot
I live in Washington State. We've got state and county codes that we have to worry about. I'm currently building a house and I had done research on using my own milled lumber for the framing and structure. What I originally read was that was not possible. After I finished the framing I was talking to the structural engineer about some of the variations that I had to do and he mentioned that I could have used my lumber for the framing if I would have had him notate that on the plans. Seems like you can pretty much do anything here with an engineering stamp.
Where I live (The regional District of Nanaimo) there is a "green building incentive" available.
The district will refund the cost of a timber grader, up to $250, for anyone who builds with lumber grown and milled on site.
All structural lumber must be graded, if it's used in a building built under permit.
My BIL built his house straight off the mill. Did not cover the interior walls, just put a couple 2x4's across from stud to stud. All framing was exposed. Heated it with a wood stove one winter. If the weather was too cold he would stay with his parents. Come spring he insulated and dry walled it. Had to trim a couple of bowed studs. You have to know it is rough sawn, can't tell by looking.
Hi Mooney,
I build all over the country, and vary involved in the "green building," and "DYI-permies," movement. As a traditional timber wright we see it all. If you want to chat about your article some evening give me a PM.
Regards, jay
Quotei called my good friend the inspector and asked about inspection. he told me once the first "dwelling" was inspected you could put a million dollar addition without ever needing inspection.
And that can only be banked on with your friend the inspector. Keep that inspector as your friend. :)
Other inspectors can take a completely different position, and not only inspect the addition for code but make the old house meet present day code as well.
Been many instances where the old wiring wasn't code, so re-wiring the old house had to be done.
Getting to where insurance companies are also getting their nose in there as well and requiring improvements before they will write a policy.
Thanks for that info about arkansas larry. I didn't know that. I live in a very rural county. We don't even have one stoplight in the whole county. I asked someone that builds houses for a living about the building codes for my county. He said "If it has a roof, you have to pay personal property taxes on it". That was all he said.
In wisconsin you can take a course and grade your own lumber
It is called Wisconsin local-use dimension lumber grading. Tried to ger a picture of the certificate but my picture posting skill got lost.
Allows your sawyer to grade your lumber for you to build your own house.
Just checking out this page, anybody done this?
http://www.spib.org/training.py?cid=6&/training.
Hi Folks,
I'm noting that many of you have been "pushed," on whether or not you can or can not use your lumber. I've even seen that some of you feel an inspector could come back and make you do something that a different inspector signed off one.
Learn to "push back!" There is meeting code, and there is being out side of code. Many code inspectors will tell you that you can't do something, which actually means, they aren't qualified to inspect it. There are many cases where folks are told, "you have to get a variance for that, and we don't issue variances," again push back.
I know many folks are getting pretty tired of "big brother," and in a lot of places they should be. Learn the system, and ask for your rights as a property owner to be respected. Not to "jinks," myself, but I have gone up against all kinds of inspectors, towns, counties and municipalities that try to "bully," having there way...learn to push back on them, and you can often achieve you goals, as long as they are within reason.
I helped a friend in Wisconsin many years ago now that was told, he would have to tear his timber frame addition down because it hadn't been inspected. The original house was. Needless to say he pushed back and the frame is still standing. A little civil disobedience and media coverage can go a long way, if what you are asking for is reasonable.
Regards, Jay
New Hampshire has a #2 construction lumber program much like the wisconson one mentioned, though I do not now its current status.
The original law required recertification after a certain time, but due to budget cut backs the courses are never scheduled in the state university program.
New Hampshire's program continues by state law under RSA 434:59. The unfortunate part is the department of agriculture rule 908 has expired. At some point I suspect Ag will reinstate there rules To the best of my knowledge it has been a few years since UNH cooperative extension has put on the certification class. Given that the certification is state law I suspect a state resident could make a big stink about the programs current activity.
In 2008/2009 I built my garage with eastern white pine and utility poles.
NH RSA 434:59
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xl/434/434-59.htm
I did it a bit differently as my county doesnt have any building codes outside of the city limits. I am way outside of the city limits.
I built with oak. well it is what we have and no I couldn't have sold the oak and bought pine, not here and not when I did it. All the house is oak. Studs, trusses, sheating and most of the paneling. all put up green. Sawed it out and built it in 5 months with only help from my dad and my 15 yo son. I even did the plumming and electrical. outside is all metal.
I could go on but a pic is worth a jabillion werds.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20540/2940/Paul_s_house_pict_%282%29.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20540/2940/Paul_s_house_pict_%283%29.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20540/2940/Paul_s_house_pict_%284%29.JPG)
The paneling is lapped over and screwed down to each stud and the last pic is erc live edged paneling put on the same way.
PC
Maybe Jay can chime in here...
I want to use my lumber but don't necessarily want to find someone to grade it. It just seems like it would be a hassle. I Googled a bit and found a discussion about the phrase in the building codes "or better". So if I can show that the design is good (with beam calc numbers) with a 8x10 in a particular application and I up it to, say, a 8x12, should the Inspector accept that? My county says that the plans must be stamped by an engineer - I can see showing him the numbers and him buying off on the design with little work on his part. So if I footnote the timbers stating that they are "better", would that work?
Anyone try that and can provide the language or technique that worked for them?
I have to admit any board from our mills are 10 time's better than what the Junk box err Big box store's sell with a stamp on then. I would prefer for then to have to stamp their finished oak LOL
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28571/IMG_0051.jpg)
Hi John,
Northern California is one of those hit and miss spots. First take your time and come side ways at the political end of it. Don't ask direct questions at first about "your project." Feel out who is a "free thinker," and who is a "government drone." Look for "comps," (comparables,) within a your zoning jurisdiction, that should help get you going.
Best of Luck,
jay
Migal
QuoteI would prefer for then to have to stamp their finished oak
The stamps needed for building codes only have to do with structural material. ;)
Likely at the price tag shown in the link, that is a clear hardwood board.
I'm one of them there inspector guys that enforce the building codes. I also have a sawmill & sell lumber & have built my shop and other structures with lumber I milled. It is acceptable to do in residential construction by following some guidelines. It's also up to the "authority having jurisdiction" (your local code officer). Here is some information from 2010 residential code. I supply the form for the mill if someone wants to use rough sawn lumber for a structural application. The funny or not so funny thing about this is the code allows grade lumber to be #3 or better but requires ungraded lumber to be #2 or better.
jim
SECTION R502 WOOD FLOOR FRAMING
R502.1 Identification. Load-bearing dimension lumber for joists, beams and girders shall be identified by a grade mark of a lumber grading or inspection agency that has been approved by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu of a grade mark, a certificate of inspection issued by a lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section shall be accepted.
Exception: Dimension lumber which is neither identified by a grade mark nor issued a certificate of inspection by a lumber grading or inspection agency may be used for load bearing purposes under the following conditions when authorized by the authority having jurisdiction:
1. The producing mill shall sell or provide the lumber directly to the ultimate consumer or the consumer's contract builder for use in an approved structure.
2. The producing mill shall certify in writing to the consumer or contract builder on a form to be provided by the authority having jurisdiction that the quality and safe working stresses of such lumber are equal to or exceed No. 2 grade of the species in accordance with the conditions set forth in American Softwood Lumber Standard (PS 20-99) published by the United States Department of Commerce. Such certification shall be filed as part of the building permit application.
Mooney,
I have built a few structures in Indiana using wood I milled (tulip poplar and big tooth aspen). There is a court case called something like the 'log cabin rule' that allows any owner built structure to be constructed without a building inspection. I always get a permit and have the scheduled inspections because the inspectors are a wealth of information. They do not have juristiction over my building but becasue I paid the fees and will be paying property taxes on the structure they have been more than willing to point out areas of concern and make suggestions. They have never questioned the integrity of my materials. Actually I often hear ' you can't buy this quality of lumber much anymore.'
Caveat: If you sell the structure all bets are off. The structure must be owner built and owner occupied.
In California, R301.1.1.1 states that your intent cannot be to sell and if you do sell in the first 12 months, that was your intent. So, I presume, that if wait a little longer you will not be in violation.
What would the liability be for Woodmizer if they put there name and publishing information on such a document.....................Mooney........get your hands out of the meat grinder, could lose an arm.
As an outsider looking in the number of civil and group lawsuits in the US per capita is just mind boggling, best thing if for a manufacturer to walk away from something that could lead to "well they said it was ok".
Read the disclaimer you get when you buy a new toaster..........do not insert hand in slot, do not use in the bathtub....etc......yes funny, yet there for a reason, some things are best to stray away from.
I may want to buy a Woodmizer in the next decade, don't mess it up for me.
I haven't used any of my own lumber in a permitted building, but I have talked to my building inspector. He is in favor of native lumber. In fact, he and his son bought an LT35 so they could build a house with native lumber. We do have a Native lumber law in Mass. Basically all lumber must meet #2 grade rules, and can only be used as #2, even if it's select structural.
QuoteWhat would the liability be for Woodmizer if they put there name and publishing information on such a document
What document are you referring to here? Not following the jist of your post.
Hamish,
You have got to explain your post to me? (#38) What liability? Do we have litigious society, yes thank you we do, and it is horrible. Why buy into the hype? What Mooney is trying to do is educate people about a system, that in it's entirety, isn't that bad, but some individuals, towns, states, etc. take it to extremes. I'm not buying this, "don't do it you'll get sued, mentality," for going through life.
popcorn_smiley pepsi_smiley
JC White Cloud,
It is not the "dont you will get sued mentalility", it is rather there are so many variables per area, anything written to be concise would be a truckload of paper to even scratch the surface, as to what is acceptable where. Basically yes there is a system everywhere and it is to check with you local officials, plain and simple.
No need to re-write the book, but as a business there are liability concerns if ones name is attached to it.
Does it matter to you if you can use any rough sawn lumber for all construction in Helmand Province? Pretty much the same as if what is acceptable in Ohio, or Alberta, but you live in Texas. Nice little read but........ok start digging as to who I am going to talk to and get local regulations etc.....
or....
like most "well I read it here and it said it was ok..............".
Hamish,
I might have taken a "stupid pill," on this one, but I'm still not getting your point, I don't think? Do you really believe that if Mooney publishes an article about using green lumber that folks are going to just blindly read it and go out and do something stupid?
Quote"well I read it here and it said it was o.k..............".
I know some folks will do this, no doubt, but that is the minority not the majority, and WM is not open for any liability because some folks don't have the common since the Creator gave a turnip.
QuoteDoes it matter to you if you can use any rough sawn lumber for all construction in Helmand Province? Pretty much the same as if what is acceptable in Ohio, or Alberta, but you live in Texas. Nice little read but........o.k. start digging as to who I am going to talk to and get local regulations etc.....
One, I live in Vermont, not Texas, and two, why does it matter where I live. Someone owns trees, they want to build with those trees, who do they talk to locally to let them do that, and what are the challenges for them with their species of trees and local regulations. It's that simple, and that's what Mooney is shooting for.
QuoteIt is not the "don't you will get sued mentality", it is rather there are so many variables per area, anything written to be concise would be a truckload of paper to even scratch the surface, as to what is acceptable where.
Again, the intent of this article is a guidelines to folks that want to use their own lumber for construction. Some basic principles and questions to ask about there local building regulations. There is no need for a "truck load," of anything. Just basic common since and some knowledge about rough lumber.
Seddon's book, "Low Cost Green Lumber Construction," and Hackenberg's publication, "The Greenwood House," did not lead the masses to go out and break laws or do stupid things. These two text did a wonderful job of helping folks use there own wood. It is time to bring these text up to date with some new authorship, I'm trying and Mooney wants too.
Regards,
jay
"One, I live in Vermont, not Texas, and two, why does it matter where I live. Someone owns trees, they want to build with those trees, who do they talk to locally to let them do that, and what are the challenges for them with their species of trees and local regulations. It's that simple, and that's what Mooney is shooting for."
"Again, the intent of this article is a guidelines to folks that want to use their own lumber for construction. Some basic principles and questions to ask about there local building regulations. "
Sums it up to exactly what I have been saying, so that should be the article plain and simple. As to the later part about people just reading something and going and doing something stupid? Yes some will, not knowing the simplest of grading standards etc............
Individual not so likely, corperate entity, yes.
Where you live does matter. Rules are different. Then entire article can be written in 4 lines, plain and simple.
Not getting into a Edited by Admin match with you, I respect your views, enjoy your sawing, let each new opening face bring a smile upon yours.
Hello Hamish,
If my post sounded up set or angry in any way, sorry about that... :-\ I was just uncertain of some of your points and the ones I thought I understood, don't seem valid IMO. I'm not pick'n on you, I just don't see that what your share'n makes much since to the topic of the original poster Mooney, or his goals in writing the article.
QuoteWhere you live does matter. Rules are different. Then entire article can be written in 4 lines, plain and simple.
::)
Actually, having been part of architectural projects all over, including over seas, everywhere is more alike in North America than different. How the rules are enforced, now that can be a quandary of sorts and how some try to change, add onto or modify/interrupt the rules, that can be different for sure. To say Mooney could write the article in 4 lines...well maybe, but that would be boring. ;) I referenced two wonderful books that helped me out tremendously when I remodeled my first house and then built my first timber frame. I think Moorey has much to write about for his article than you might imagine, as did those two authors, and WM is as likely to see a ligation as did the publishers of those books.
QuoteIndividual not so likely, corporate entity, yes.
Just so you know, from every thing I've read :P and experienced, (I've been sued before, unsuccessfully I'm happy to report,) individuals are twice as likely to be sued as any corporate entity statistically. Now this may have changed, but as far as I know, it hasn't. Now with that said, the insurance structure in North America has facilitated the growth of a litigious actions, which is note worthy for all of us.
QuoteNot getting into a Edited by Admin match with you, I respect your views, enjoy your sawing, let each new opening face bring a smile upon yours.
I'm not sure what this means or how to respond??? I'm glad you like my work and I respect your views too, I just may not agree with a few of them and thought that discussing them would enlighten both of us, and those reading the thread.
Best Wishes, jay
I built with rough sawn and didn't bother with permits. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Eventually the tax assessor will show up and there's a whole lot more here than is on his card. I may have to pay twice the cost of the permits which will be added to my property tax bill the year I get caught. That's still much less than I'd have spent buying lumber at HD or Lowes.
Tounge firmly planted in cheek!
Hamish is from Ottawa. Give the poor guy a break. They live in a walled compound out there.
Not wild red necked Alberta. Hell he probably don't even know what a pick me up truck looks like. At least not a real one.
Hi CorleyF,
I can't condone what you did, or recommend it to other folks, but as a paradox, I also can't tell you how many times I have done it myself and help clients do it as well. ;) :D As long as you go into it with the full knowledge of what you are doing, well it speaks to something I've mention before about knowledgeable civil disobedience. If folks like you and I don't push back on the "system," it will run over the top of all of us. I'm an optimist, believing in this huge resurgence of DYI folks and young craftspeople that are learning the "old ways," that we will see amendments and specialty clauses added to many of the regions building codes. More are added each year, we just have to keep the pressure up.
I hope all goes well for you and that you educate folks that think what you are doing is not proper, it is and should be available to anyone that want's to learn how to do it.
Regards, jay
this is a great topic I live in an area where three counties come together
And rules vary from one to another and a lot of times it depends who you talk to or who you know
Or for example you have lived in the area X number of years and new owners from a different state move in rules change for them
Or they change the rules as they go
An example this happened ...you make an opening in a brick wall you ask what they require they say steel I beam you comply
Then they say beam made from 2x12s you say treated?? They say doesn't matter
So they change it after your done to has to be treated
On and on
This has been a fun topic to read and would love to read more. I called our local building department and was told that all framing(load bearing) lumber has to be graded. For me I would love to be able to use my own wood in some spots but overall I am happy to use it for trim, wood floors and siding. I am sure I will find some other spots that I will be able to use it and save some money that are not load bearing.
Quote from: Corley5 on January 19, 2013, 11:48:32 PM
I built with rough sawn and didn't bother with permits. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Eventually the tax assessor will show up and there's a whole lot more here than is on his card. I may have to pay twice the cost of the permits which will be added to my property tax bill the year I get caught. That's still much less than I'd have spent buying lumber at HD or Lowes.
My great uncle was a contractor in Maryland in the 1930's-1950's. He won a bid to raze and remove an old brick municiple building. The other bidders scratched there heads at his low bid....
Use of dynamite was prohibited within city limits, and subject to a $25 fine. He used dynamite, saving a ton of labor, and before the dust settled, he walked over to city hall and paid the fine.... :D
How did it ever get to this point, that you can't even build your own house using whatever resources you want to use in this supposedly "free society". I agree with Jay, we need to push back on a lot of issues.
Hi Folks,
I'm glad everyone is getting something out of this, and yes we all need to "push back," as hard as we can. I do it every day on different fronts within my business. We all need to encourage Mooney to do the best article he can. He and I have been corresponding offline and are having a phone conference early next week to discuss what we are both writing about on this subject. If we start get'n young "whipper snappers," like Mooney writing about things like this, and things will start to change for all of us. WM is doing a wonderful job in supporting his endeavors as one of their P.R. people. I promise to do whatever I can.
This part about getting lumber graded and stamped has been on my hit list for some time now. I have pushed back from Michigan to North Carolina on this issue with timber frames. I have said more than once if this is the requirement, so be it, but you have to make the process of getting a certification for being a grader/stamper much easier. I have written several state officials about this. If you own and operate a saw mill, you should be able to get a little OJT, take a class/apprenticeship and then be assessed in some fashion, there by getting your stamp. It seems in a lot of areas to be more of a money grabbing venture supported by government and big business, than an educational program for sawyers. One of the topics I am encouraging Mooney to research and write about for this article is Stamp/Grade Certifications and when/where/how to obtain them. If we saw, we should be able to do grade/stamping as well for our clients.
Regards, jay
I built my cabin in my back yard, I was moving it to where it is now. I went to the building inspector, an older gentlemen, he questioned my drawings, like what we discussed. I told him I wanted to build next spring, bring the drawings next spring, with the revisions we talked about on ther drawings and I will issue the permit.
Next spring I showed up to at the BD, new laws and a new people in the BD. I was told that there was no way I was going to build that in this township by the new inspectior. I was told that each log had to be stress tested and stamped by an engineer. Well as you can imagine I LOST IT.
I spent the next year moving the logs to the new site and hiring a brand new engineer, ;D, we got along great as he was just starting out in the building services. I wrote letters to the Mayor and councelors. I finnally received my permit, with 3 stamps on my drawings from Engineers. I built, and after, the engineer passed my building and sent as letter to the town, 2 inspectors showed up to close the permit.
The one who turned me down and another inspector. The comment to the one who turned me down was "What seems to be the problem here this is a fabulous Log Cabin" and then to me 'enjoy it you have created a beautiful building'
Anyways I woild love to see what mooney comes up with, I don't see whay we can't build with our own wood, if it needs to be inspected so be it.
I believe with the right info we can do what we want as long as we do not impact others.
I do understand why counties want everything graded and stamped by an engineer. It is because once an inspector signs off on it, they assume some of the responsibility and can and do get sued if things go wrong in the futures.
Not saying I like it, but that is the fact.
Thing is that most of these regulations are actually aimed at the commercial builders.
They are the ones that push designs and materials to the absolute limit to save cost (and increase profit)
You can be sure that if graded lumber wasn't required that some unscrupulous builders would be buying the cheapest ungraded 2nd rate wood they can find, and using it in houses. Once it's covered in drywall who will know? Couple 2nd rate wood with plans that are using the bare minimum necessary to start with, and you get problems.
Generally "owner builders" tend to over engineer, and often use heavier or better grades of wood in their buildings. Fist it's a labour of love, they take pride in the building, and want it done right. Secondly, if you are milling your own wood, it's relatively cheap. You can up size beams, put studs closer together, add more floor joists or rafters. Compared to a commercial builder that is going to build with the exact minimums that the engineer says is needed.
NZ has recently tightened up on the building regulations following some shoddy building practices in recent years. (Houses that leaked and rotted etc.) But these were professionally built, and often quite expensive buildings. Not owner built structures. So now you need to be a registered builder to pretty much build anything structural, or that has to do with the water tightness of the building. >:(
Unforeseen consequence of this is that it became illegal to build you own house, which obviously raised a bit of a fuss, and the law is being amended to allow "owner builders" again, albeit with a bit stricter conditions, so stop dodgy unregistered builders claiming to be "owners". Things like you can only build one house every 5 years etc as an owner.
The ungraded timber thing can be worked around by getting the architect / engineer to specify "ungraded" wood. Usually means up-sizing or adding a few more structural parts, but it can be done. Pine timber in house construction also needs to be treated here, but this can be avoided by using naturally durable woods like cedar, cypress, Douglas fir etc.
I think the book is a good idea. Not to encourage people to do anything illegal, but to point out what the laws actually say, and ways of LEGALLY getting through the inevitable red tape.
Like if you approach the local council wanting to build a house they may give a standard answer of "It must be graded and treated timber, and built by a licensed builder", and not actually present you with the alternatives that I mentioned above (It tends to be more work for them)
But if you know these alternatives exist and have a practical strategy you can often get the permits and build your own house.
Ian
Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on January 20, 2013, 01:03:20 AM
Hamish is from Ottawa. Give the poor guy a break. They live in a walled compound out there.
Not wild red necked Alberta. Hell he probably don't even know what a pick me up truck looks like. At least not a real one.
Funny, I have never owned a car in my life, my only walls are lake on one side and rail fencing locking me into my 830 acre compound.
Guess I could move back out to Alberta, buy a cowboy hat and pretend.
At least we both like Lego.
Ian, hit the nail on the head with a couple of his points. Often tightened local regulation was caused by poor construction by commercial contractors, not owner builders. Then after the "restructure," your told, only a commercial/union builder may build a house? Those are the one I "take to the wood house on." Don't take, "No," or "you can't do that," for an answer, all ways push back. Ian, is also correct that many of them don't want to bother with owner builders and their questions, the simplest thing, is just tell someone they can't do something. The more books, articles, forum discussions and folks doing their own work, the better.
On the positive side, because what has been done, many places are allowing owner builders. Yes there are still some hurdlers to jump over, but you can do it. The more folks that do, the more those hurdles will be shortened or removed. Now if we can just get the owner/sawyer issues fixed, things will be real nice. :)
Regards, jay
Yes Ianab "Generally "owner builders" tend to over engineer" as I am one of those and have built my last 2 homes. The inspectors are very easy to work with if you are not trying to get away with shoddy work. They like inspecting homes built by home owners. I had a couple of issues they let go, but insisted on a couple of others.
When I talk to the code office on the phone they did not know me, I am sure when I do finally start my next home that they will work with me some. I remember getting that funny look for the last electrical permit pulled........They where not used to someone putting that many outlets in. :laugh:
Funny, I have never owned a car in my life, my only walls are lake on one side and rail fencing locking me into my 830 acre compound.
Guess I could move back out to Alberta, buy a cowboy hat and pretend.
At least we both like Lego.
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If you are an Albertan, living in Ottawa and didn't get elected from here to move you there we need send rescue party to get you back here where you belong.
We can still do lots of building out here with our own lumber. Or even Lego if you like or straw bales and host of other things.
And the hat meh not so much any more? mostly Ball caps now with some oil patch corp logo on it. Probably 2 well heads for every cow head now and in places not even the cows have been.
It's me again, "the code guy". This has become a very interesting post with views from every spectrum imaginable. But lets not lose sight of some very basic reasons for codes, laws, regulations in every aspect of our lives. "We are a reactive society".
Something terrible happens! We create legislation and laws to prevent it from happening again. There are the obvious more stringent new laws for gun control, and some older ones that address DUI & other social laws.
But what about building codes?
I had a home inspection business for several years before doing codes. Have you ever seen someone using 16 Ga. wire from an extension cord buried in a wall connected to a 20 amp breaker with 12 outlets on it? (Big fire hazard). Or, maybe 2x4 2' OC rafters spanning 12' where the ground snow load is 40? I once did an inspection where a family removed a load bearing post from a room to place a pool table there. They wondered why the second floor was sagging. This may seem off track from the discussion of "doing what you want" with your own logs. But if you think about it, a lot of these regulations are to protect the people that buy these homes once the builder moves on.
My advice is to talk with your local inspector. Ask him to show you the regulations, (it's his job). If you don't agree with his assessment there are other options for code interpretation.
I see a lot of training videos that are very disturbing. They are from faulty construction practices. I believe we all have a responsibility to build safe.
Jim
Hi Jim,
Thank's for that. You are most correct, that is why I for one become so upset when I'm lumped in with that crowd. Just because someone uses there own wood and/or a more traditional building method, they shouldn't be ostracized or looked at like they don't know what they are doing. You are correct that we all have a responsibility to build safely. If more regulatory folks had your background I don't think we would be having this conversation. I have seen way more bad architecture done by G.C. that DYI owner builders, or as you pointed out, naive home owners that do something without thinking.
Regards, jay
The most common question I get from inspectors when I do any thing that requires a permit and an inspection is "don't you think that is a bit of over kill?"
Or a comment of " this is not a commercial building". You didn't have to spend the money to do it that way.
When the labour is you for your self the extra cost to "do it right the first time" is not a major factor in the over all project cost. And the peace of mind is the most gratifying as well.
When ever the development officer that has to sign the permits pushes back on me I go get a friend that is an engineer and a town councillor to approve and put his stamp on the plans if I don't already have it and my permits get signed. Development office rarely questions any thing any more and I only do my own stuff.
In fact I have had a couple of customers sent to me for appearance beams that also need to be structural and I get them cut with the same engineer on site to sign off on the before the pieces get loaded.
If you leave it to the bureaucrats you couldn't build any thing and when they get stupid you have to trump them with smart, well planned, patient, COMMON sense that is irrefutable and if you can make them look good at the same time that is a bonus.
BUT if the officer just happens to be a PIA to every builder in the county, if your lively hood does not depend on the development office and you have the courage and a few friends in the building community then it can be good to make the officer look really stupid in front of their own council. Can get the council looking for a new officer pretty quickly and they will generally get someone that will do a job more in line with what the voters want.
Sure worked well for us here locally.
QuoteMy advice is to talk with your local inspector. Ask him to show you the regulations, (it's his job). If you don't agree with his assessment there are other options for code interpretation.
Agreed. The building regulations are usually there for good reasons. People do dumb things, or take shortcuts to save money, and it may affect other people in the future.
Hence the suggestions of how to work within the regulations, with the building inspectors, rather than trying to skirt the regulations, and possibly making a mess of things.
It's not a matter of "doing whatever I want", it's being able to build my own house/shed/barn etc, in a legal and safe way.
On another separate tangent. It may well be more practical to buy the structural graded wood anyway. It's arguably cheaper than you can produce yourself anyway, and is generally hidden from sight. Then use your own (usually higher quality) wood for the non-structural uses where grading isn't an issue. Siding, floorboards, wall lining, trim, cabinets etc. The stuff you actually see.
Ian
Wow, this was one of the few weekends I didn't check the forum, which meant a boatload of excellent reading this morning! :P ;D
Great perspectives from you all, which will help me make sure that our finished article will treat the issue right. I've been told several times that this article is a bad idea, however, I believe this is something that many people do want to know more about, and currently there aren't a whole of of readily available introductions to the topic, especially for the sawyer. We'll be circulating it among regional management here at the company to look for 'bugs'. ;) Also, I'm sure we'll have our lawyers look at it as well, because Hamish has a very good point about liability.
Perhaps this is a good time to let you guys know that in a couple months I'll be soon moving overseas for a year or two for WM. This issue of the Wood-Mizer Way will be the last one I get to put together for a while, so maybe that's why I'm eager for a difficult project. I'll still be checking in once in a while.
(Insert thick Austrian accent here) "I'll be BACK!" :D
Mooney, thanks for starting this discussion. I was just contacted by a guy who is thinking about cutting his own structural lumber, and I want to be able to advise him about the potential pitfalls, and some things he needs to do to make sure he doesn't get cross-wise with a building inspector. For me, this discussion is not about providing all the answers, just generating the right questions.
By the way, the "I'll be back" comment sounds especially appropriate when looking at (I assume) your picture holding that cant hook!
Pete
Quote from: ljohnsaw on January 17, 2013, 05:19:19 PM
Quote from: Solomon on January 17, 2013, 11:24:31 AM
Rubber Stamps are cheap and easy to aquire. Be sure and use WHITE pine if you dont have a kiln.
That's funny. Actually, I got a message back from my County Planning department and my property falls into the sparcely populated category (duh) and I fit under the provision of R301.1.1.1 that states I can use owner-provided lumber with no mention of grading! One more phone call/question for clarification and I will be good to go. 8) I wouldn't be asking
anyone with local government for clairification. They will use the oppertunity to charge you for something or set up a lot of hoops you have to jump through. Flaming hoops at that. Just build your structure according to the code they already gave you. Rule No 1. Do NOT trust the government! If you do, you will get the shaft every time.
(Insert thick Austrian accent here) "I'll be BACK!" :D
[/quote]
You'll still visit the Forum want you Arnold? :)
In my county, the last time I checked, if the structure is over 800 square feet then it has to meet the county building code requirements. I built a 16' x 24" shop years ago, the county inspector inspected the wiring and did not really comment on the framing. I oversized all the load bearing lumber. I initially bought my first mill with the intention of building a house using wood from the trees on my place, but never did.
Lumber Grading is within the reach of the small custom sawyer, projects requiring professionally graded and stamped lumber that you produce on your mill are not beyond the reach of professional lumber graders. Here is a link to a company that can provide this type of service to the west coast. This type of service should be available in almost any part of the Unites States or Canada.
http://www.wclib.org
Do you have an idea what the wclib will charge to come to your site and grade lumber?
I am sure it is not cheap.
I really cant help with the cost of this as am in the process of getting set up with them, there are a few options on the costs of as well as the services that are available. The management there is very helpful and I am sure would answer any of your questions if you where within the limits of their service area.
According to the Southern Pine Inspection Bureau, from their website, the way I understand it, (and I haven't talked to 'em so I may have my head up my butt) they'll inspect your lumber for $500 a day plus expenses. I'd think you could inspect a lot of lumber in a day. But as I said I haven't talked to 'em, and I'm no lumber inspector either. So I really don't know what I'm talking about!
For the Canadians on the site
www.clsab.ca Canadian Lumber Standards Accredition Board, has links for services in every province.
Most country wide are geared toward manufacturers not individuals, and the cost for the average person are quite high. Visually graded lumber is piece by piece, so depends upon how much one individual can grade and stamp in a day. A thousand dollars a day ++ will pay for alot of structural framing lumber.
Quote from: hamish on January 22, 2013, 08:19:14 PM
For the Canadians on the site
www.clsab.ca Canadian Lumber Standards Accredition Board, has links for services in every province.
Most country wide are geared toward manufacturers not individuals, and the cost for the average person are quite high. Visually graded lumber is piece by piece, so depends upon how much one individual can grade and stamp in a day. A thousand dollars a day ++ will pay for alot of structural framing lumber.
Yes Hamish $1000 will buy a lot of lumber until you want special dimension Appearance lumber that is ALSO structural AND can be approved by and engineer. YOU will not find a single retail store in Canada that sells, for any price, much less stocks rough sawn, STAMPED, 3"X8",9",10" etc. etc. The comercial mills don't even saw that stuff any more. I deal with a couple of the big mills and I get orders refered to me by them because they dont cut those dimensions for several reasons. Most of them economic on their end.
You can stand on your soap box and yell about it till the cows come home. But the market is in a state of flux right now and the small guy with the little mill is becoming the go to guy for unique one of a kind "make my house mine" lumber products and in this country Alberta is leading the way. (as always) Get used to it or maybe I should say get over it.
I just talked to the CLSAB and was directed to the AFPA. Getting you own lumber graded by an accredited grader is not real expensive. The course is an intensive week long time commitment and costs about $400 ish with text books. You end up with a wallet card of your certification and/or an 8X10 wall certificate. You then get your stamp (if you want one) through the AFPA and payment is based on volume you grade through a Dues structure. The certificate expires every 3 years.
Even at a $1000 for a 3 year certification it would be cheap. The dues are a cost of business that increases the value of the product you sell. Not a factor at all.