Using a bandmill, what is the best way to produce 2x's for framing use?
If you take the cant and cut the width first, say three of them at 3 1/2", turn 90 degrees, skim the top, then saw the thickness at 1 1/2" all the way to the bed, thus producing 3 -2x4's each pass, how do you keep the boards straight during milling? I've seen lots of photos of it being done this way, and I've done it this way myself many times. When I saw for myself I don't mind a few culls that bowed before use. But when sawing for a customer, the last thing you want to to see is bowed boards coming off the mill.
The other way I've done it is to saw each cant individually, adding 1/16" per linear foot, then standing them on edge with the hump up, sawing, turning and sawing to final width. This has produced the best boards for me, however it is very time consuming, more time spent handling, more waste... And so on.
So how do you guys do it? Is there another way or something else I should be doing?
As far as efficiency and bd ft per hour, I prefer the first method.
Thanks everyone!
Adam, I have encountered this issue as well. I have done it both ways too. I make my first face parallel to any sweep that might be in the log, and make this face the one where I drop the 1-1/2. the two faces on each side I bring down to 3-1/2" with 1-1/2" drops keeping the center of the log as centered as possible. this give me center cut boards. the other boards I trim and flip like you described. It just makes better boards for me this way. A lil more time and some slivers,(waste) but for the most part straight boards. david
This is my way. Note that you should always have an odd number of cants thus preventing splitting the center cant through the pith. If I can't get 3 or 5, then I bring it down to 1.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0617.JPG)
The third face has been opened, the last side board taken off, and the cant split into three 3 5/8" cants.
The red crayon marks are for illustration.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0619.JPG)
Here the three "splits" have been turned, the fourth face opened and 2X4's are being sawn.
This log produced 3 side boards that were edged and then each made two 2X4's.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0618.JPG)
2X4 studs. Also note the pile of studs in the background.
I have not had any issues with SYP framing lumber doing "bad things" like bowing or crooking, but I never split the pith.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0609.JPG)
The pile that is in the background of the above picture. They are all straight.
This is for a "many times" repeat customer that I will be sawing for again beginning Monday morning.
Thank you MM for the pictures as I will be a new Sawyer(in training) this spring and 2x4 will be some of the first things I want to cut. "but I never split the pith" Will be something I remember. Odd is the only way. Thats will help me.
Woodmizer offers several informative dvd's. One of them regards dimension sawing. Very informative, I learned alot from those :P 8)
Splitting the pith will guarantee that at least six of your 2X4's will bow.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0853.JPG)
Here I am sawing 2X6's. In order to center the pith in the center cant, I will have to take some 2X4's from the right side. That was the best option to insure quality and straight 2X6's from the other cants.
I've never had the privilege of sawing SYP, but when I saw tulip poplar and Virginia pine, they tend to want to bow when sawing using the first technique I mentioned. Piths not being split either. It just seems that this method wouldn't properly relieve stress in the log, causing the boards to move
MM- in your second post it looks like all 3 cants are the same width...? I'm using my phone so that may be the reason it looks that way...
Oops! Virginia Pine is a specie of SYP... It's just never referred to as that around here.
I saw plump and then dress the boards after drying, wether air or kiln or a comination of both. Most of my dimension lumber is tulip poplar and big tooth aspen. The aspen really moves a lot after milling. I use the grade settings on the rule, producing lumber that is 2 1/8 x 4 1/8. If there is a lot of stress in the log I will saw to the next dimension up to assure I can get a straight board. It wastes a bit of wood and is more time consuming but I get the straight lumber I need in the end.
Lynn, your pic in post #5 has been baffling me.
I see your front, left side outrigger is above the bunk, so you must be sawing something other than dimensional lumber from those cants. :-\
I will say this to the dismay of many, but must be said for at least my sake. I have cut many logs through for maximum 2x4 production. There are many logs that will yield straight boards with this techique, but with what I have found with our timber, it yields allot of crooked boards on the outer quadrants, to the point of almost useless lumber. I have found a little skim cut takes just enough stress out to relieve the stress and resulting in boards that can be used as is without making allot of short ones.
Great pics and tutorial on maximizing board production here. I wish I had some syp close to me. The nearest is around 65 miles SE of here and it's owned by weyerhouser if I heard right. It would be nice to have access to a dozen or more good logs for making some framing lumber.
Are any of these species good for framing? Oak, hickory, red oak, willow, cottonwood, sycamore, bois'darc, winged elm, or blackjack!!!! If so, I've got tons of it. Not many softwoods around these parts that are worth much to my knowledge. :o
Board production does not mean useable lumber in all cases, The list you gave can all be used if the builder has no problem with it and any codes don't prohibit it. Black Jack is a funny breed for sure, best for fire wood around here.
Quote from: drobertson on January 18, 2013, 05:01:45 PM
I will say this to the dismay of many, but must be said for at least my sake. I have cut many logs through for maximum 2x4 production. There are many logs that will yield straight boards with this techique, but with what I have found with our timber, it yields allot of crooked boards on the outer quadrants, to the point of almost useless lumber. I have found a little skim cut takes just enough stress out to relieve the stress and resulting in boards that can be used as is without making allot of short ones.
Especially in logs longer than 8 or 9'. Ive gotten away with it before on short logs and understanding customers. Same goes with poplar. I love poplar, dislike the amount of stress it has
Quote from: francismilker on January 18, 2013, 05:38:51 PM
Great pics and tutorial on maximizing board production here. I wish I had some syp close to me. The nearest is around 65 miles SE of here and it's owned by weyerhouser if I heard right. It would be nice to have access to a dozen or more good logs for making some framing lumber.
Are any of these species good for framing? Oak, hickory, red oak, willow, cottonwood, sycamore, bois'darc, winged elm, or blackjack!!!! If so, I've got tons of it. Not many softwoods around these parts that are worth much to my knowledge. :o
I sawed over 4000 bd ft of walnut into framing lumber for a customer this past summer. I couldn't talk him out of it. To him, wood was wood.
1 log still stands out clearly in my mind. It was absolutely beautiful and it pained me turn it into studs.
Quote from: Chuck White on January 18, 2013, 04:29:50 PM
Lynn, your pic in post #5 has been baffling me.
I see your front, left side outrigger is above the bunk, so you must be sawing something other than dimensional lumber from those cants. :-\
Chuck, there are a couple of pictures that the camera angle makes thing look as they are not. The top of the "right" outrigger is well below the saw bed. The "left" outrigger is not an outrigger, but the cam follower cover.
I was sawing 2X6's.
The first two pictures also look like very different sized cants and thicknesses, but they are the same. The pictures were to illustrate technique only.
syp must be a very stress filled wood. w.pine and red pine around here i don't worry about "pith" sawing, throw the log on the mill and let the sawdust fly :)
I would not make a statement that every SYP log is stress filled, but some are. By following a few simple rules, you can saw suitable framing lumber from most any log. There are times, especially with smaller trees, that the cant must be flipped after each pass.
I'll agree with MM on this one. Although my experience is limited, I have sawed logs that would need turning very frequently, and others I've sawed through and through with no issues. It just depends on the log itself, I guess.
This is why I try to convince the custormer to make minimal 1" bringing the log to a cant. This allows me to observe the log for any stresses that might be present. Taking a log and just cutting through with no regards to retained stress is almost pointless. As mentioned, some logs behave very well, and make real quick 2X4's or 6's but just when you think you have the cat by the tail, it turns into an epic battle of just getting through the log with whatever can be salvaged.
I'm not quite sure I'm understanding here. I've sawn several logs where the first cuts on each side result in the boards either bending up on the ends or towards the sides.
Sometimes enough to make me think it was going to hit me. And this has also happened when sawing the cant into the needed lumber. So, here is my question. When this happens, should I rotate the log to make my next cut and do this each time until the boards saw flat and true?
Magic, thank you for the info about splitting the pith. That's something I didn't know.
In my opinion, the pith is the least of worries, concerning pine, the orientation of the first cut as related to the drops to cut straight through is the major decision. there are too many variables with off centered hearts to try and battle the pith. Stress is the enemy, and finding it as quickly as possible is the key for me.
So what do you reccomend doing after the first cut shifts on you? Go ahead and rotate for the next cut? Do the same if it shifts again? How can you best relieve the tension in a log so that you can get clean cuts? I don't have a problem with tension in the bigger logs but they usually need to be turned several times to get a workable cant. In the smaller cants, turning them can throw your cuts off if they bend up or down. The clamp works Great horizontally, but Not vetically.
Yes David. I was geared toward the OP, but the first face that is opened on a SYP log is absolutely the most critical cut that you will make. If you are turning 90° for each face, that opening will determine the orientation of the cant for sawing through. Especially if the log has sweep and you get it wrong, the entire log/cant will be junk.
I'm beginning to understand now Magicman. Just one more ? and i'll stop bugging you sir. How do you determine where the first cut on a log should be?
I am less concerned with the first face and more concerned with the third face. I use the first two faces to see how the slabs/lumber moves. The third face is for getting the cant I want. I will have a target size cant when I load a log but the log will let you know if that target can be achieved.
coming from a man that saws a million bf. per year. i'll take his advice all day long :)
I am not giving Sawing 101, so this is simply "my way" for general sawing and is not meant in any way to be "the way". It works most of the time, but sometimes the log will surprise you.
The log will tell you but as a general rule, I saw through from the hump side.
I lay the log on the bed with the horns toward the right (loader) and open the first face. I bring this face down to my target cant size. I then rotate and take the horns off on the second face opening, and bring that face down to my target size. Now that the horns are off and will not obstruct the saw head or mast, I rotate and open the third face. I now bring the cant to my sawing size and split the cant if necessary and I am sawing framing lumber. I now rotate the final time. The hump side is easy. Start the sawing so that the dog board will equal your targeted lumber thickness.
But remember, every log is different. Some twist, and some have large limb knots or other defects. These will have to be taken into account.
custom nailed it, the third face, maybe the last but either case, one has to make a decision. the stress in the log will speak volumes, and only experience will suffice in this. the longer the log the more decisions have to be made. much can be made from long logs, and much can be wasted as well. In my opinion, there is allot of give and take. Finial proccessing is a premium and should be considered.
Since the OP asked about trying to handle stress, most of my responses have been toward stress, but as customsawyer mentioned above, the 3rd face is critical for determining the uniformity of your cant or lumber.
The first picture in Reply #2 shows opening that critical third face. The blade height above the bed will determine the accuracy and consistency of your lumber. My opening height was no accident at all. I produced one side board that edged and made two 2X4's, and then three splits that were the exact same thickness. Because of the camera angle, the uniform thickness is better seen in the 2nd picture.
The 3rd and 4th pictures in Reply #2 shows some of the 2X4's that I produced on that particular saw job. I have sawed many hundreds of framing studs for this customer that he uses to build homes.
It is ironic, but I will move my sawmill this morning and begin sawing framing lumber again for this exact same customer. :)
This log that I encountered today was a "poster child" for internal log stress. It had sweep, twist, and the pith was badly off center.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1432_28Small29.JPG)
I was sawing 2X6's and had to flip the cant 180° after each pass. I can only imagine what would have happened if this one had been split through the pith.
Do you center the pith from end to end using the toe boards on a log this bad off?
How close to "perfect" do you center the pith in general?
The best way to cut framing lumber is "listen to Magicman" He has cut over a million board feet, likely over half of that was framing lumber. All that knowledge and experience, and he freely shares. How fortunate could we be ?
AdamT, it is difficult to make a definite statement when dealing with SYP and framing lumber, especially with a bad actor like that log was. I had a couple today that were just as bad, or maybe worse. The pith probably passed through two or three different boards. :-\
Many times, "centering the log" would better describe what you have to do.
This is most interesting, and reminds me of just how nothing can be guarenteed when sawing lumber, just how did it and the other bads one turn out?
Slightly straying from original topic, but how critical is it to center the log when making random 1x's? Not including quarter sawn lumber as I know that's a must.
And I too am curious how the boards turned out on those logs
Quick answer; I disregard the pith, center the log above the bed, and saw through from the hump side.
Quote from: Magicman on January 21, 2013, 08:57:52 PM
This log that I encountered today was a "poster child" for internal log stress. It had sweep, twist, and the pith was badly off center.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1432_28Small29.JPG)
I was sawing 2X6's and had to flip the cant 180° after each pass. I can only imagine what would have happened if this one had been split through the pith.
I almost always cut a log like that in half if I can. But sometimes there is no choice if you just have to keep the length. What a waste tho'.
Very true. Probably half of that log went into the slab pile, but when you are sawing the customer's logs and he wants 16' lumber you just get what you can get. As a side note, in my opinion, those 2X6's were not worth a flip.
I like that Magic! Your right about getting the customer what they want. This last job I did was for trailer boards. The young man paid the price and got what he wanted but it was all out of Post Oak. My dad says it's the worst of the Oaks for cracking, splitting and warping. I'm starting to believe him.
I'm just glad the young man understood going in that the logs weren't gonna yield a lot and would take more time to get any usable wood out of.
I think he was happy though because I managed to get him 840bf and he really only needed 512bf.
If I may, and ask for forgiveness in regards to the pith. The subject of cutting through the pith has really bothered me of late. And I have realized that my definition was skewed as to what is to be known as splitting the pith. I have always tried to keep the cut on one side or other of the center of the log(pith). I have had many such as what MM illustrated in the off center pith. and as a result, the center of the log was on one end of the board, while the oppisite side of the log had the other side of center on the other end. I am not sure of the integrity of boards cut this way, but for me, I always try to eliminate the situation. I was referring to cutting straight through the center, this is my misunderstanding in terms. the custormer usually has a number of logs and some kind of material list. All we can do is try to achive the custormers requirements. Sometimes it comes out blissfull, and other times lots of burn wood. Sorry for misrepresenting the acutual facts of what shoud be proper sawing, david
I do not think that you have David. When sawed, off center pith logs usually exhibit movement as the boards are removed and the stress is relieved. We all have seen them move sideways, lift up on the ends, and bow up in the center. We all have also seen cants lift up in the center and pop away from the log clamp. Sometimes they have to be re-squared which loses a board. They just do bad things.
Boards sawed with the pith on the edge tend to crook, (crown) so I try to avoid sawing framing lumber this way. With off center piths, there are logs that you just have to center the log above the bed, saw it, and get what you can.
Amen, and don't how we dislike to see these logs when they are in a row to be cut. We know the folks need (or want the lumber) and know it just wont' make, thanks, and sorry for the misunderstanding Lynn. david
"to pith or not to pith, that is the question..."
Question or comment for David and MM
leaving pith to wander through boards in softwood isnt as bad as hardwoods from what ive seen and read correct? - also its a big no-no if grade sawing?
I know for a fact if i leave any pith in eycalypt timber it will just turn to firewood a month or so down the track so I always have to eliminate pith / corewood from anything produced.
boxing it in on doug fir and such seems to be fine and personaly i try and get the log center as much as possible altho logs like the picture are a bit tricky as stated haha
Anyway, back to topic...
Cheers
Justin
This is a little off subject but I have a question. When cutting dimensional lumber if the log has sweep I try to cut boards so the warp in the dried boards will be bowed boards. It's easier for me to deal with bow than crook when framing. My question, is it better when cutting hardwoods for furniture to cut logs with sweep so the boards will crook instead of bow as they dry? Does it matter?
Justin, for me, yes.
I saw everything to minimize crook. I sticker with the bow up so that the stack weight straightens the boards as they dry. Logs, both softwood and hardwood with piths on one side on one end and on the other side on the other are just bad logs. I saw through with the pith up/down and hope for the best. Those boards are good candidates for grain "runout" which are weak structurally.
On good straight logs, do you eyeball the pith, or put a tape measure to it and get the pith level?
What about straight logs that have an off center pith?
AdamT, You keep mentioning leveling/centering the pith. At no time have I ever said to center the pith and in Reply #36, I said that "I disregard the pith, center the log above the bed, and saw through from the hump side."
There are very few SYP logs with a centered pith. If I had centered the piths on several logs today, I would have lost a majority of the logs.
To open the first face, I orient the log with the hump side toward the side supports and center the log above the bed. I center the log again for the second face opening. Turning 90° for each face, that brings the hump side up for the final face opening and saw through. But remember, my way of opening a log and sawing is only my way. There are others that are probably more correct than what I do.
I will take a few pictures of the framing lumber job that I am now sawing and should finish Monday. :)
Quote from: Magicman on January 24, 2013, 07:44:35 AM
I sticker with the bow up so that the stack weight straightens the boards as they dry.
Stacking bowed boards (in hardwoods) is very aggravating. I want my stacks flat and straight. I usually try to alternate a bow up, then a bow down. On the next layer, it the bow was up on the stacked board, I put the bow down on top of that board to try and level out the stack.
MM, have you every tried alternating the bow? I may be fooling myself :D. I am speaking to hardwood here, not pine. In making furniture, a badly bowed board is a serious defect in my opinion.
How do you deal with knots? Pulled a test board from the kiln today and had to cut a knot out of the center. It had twisted, warped and cupped really bad.
In hardwood, I try to put them on the edge to lessen their impact (easier to work around them). That is the opposite of what you do in pine. In some species, they are not so bad, but in some others like pecan, they are the smiley_devil.
Yup, flat hardwood for furniture is a completely different animal. In a way, I am thankful that most of the flat lumber that I saw is for siding, lathing, and wall paneling. I just finished a stack of 16' 1X8 lathing.
The up/down stacking is fine, but the helpers that I usually get can not keep it in order, so I just tell them to stack hump up. Even then, I saw some horn up 2X4's today and I did not say a word. At least it was stacked. ;D
I will be sawing something a bit different toward the end of next week. 2" Oak for a horse barn. :o
Quote from: Magicman on January 24, 2013, 10:38:41 PM
but the helpers that I usually get can not keep it in order, so I just tell them to stack hump up.
;D
Sometimes I have trouble with my stacker too. He does not listen to himself :D.
QuoteHow do you deal with knots?
I tried to find out what you had in the kiln. Hardwood or softwood, and what species? Size?
Seems you have a lot of irons in the fire, and hard to keep up :)
MM, a lot of what I've read and was told was always to "center the pith", but I realize that isn't always the case. I got you know!!! Your leveling the bark on the opening 2 faces. I did not realize SYP rarely had a fairly centered pith. I don't really saw much pine.
Poplar is a different beast then SYP, with much more stress than any pine I've ever sawn. I don't saw much framing lumber, but when I do, it's usually poplar. Poplar tends to have a centered pith, so leveling it is easy, depending on log length. Do you saw much poplar down your way?
I appreciate everyone's input. I learn so much from this site everyday!
Thanks everyone!!
WDH over the years I find that if I cut bowed logs you will get bowed wood, just cut straght logs and make fire wood out of the junk.
when I buy logs they are straight the bowed ones stay on the truck. so when I sell wood my customers like straight lumber, some times I might get 1 or 2 that bowe and they go in the chiper.
I find that if I sell nice lumber I can get a nice price
just trying to help :)
Quote from: WDH on January 24, 2013, 10:42:06 PM
Sometimes I have trouble with my stacker too. He does not listen to himself :D.
Fire him. ;D
A newbie question. I am reading all this great info about how to cut logs with stress. I am assuming row planted trees that have grown straight up will have much less stress. Does the stress in the logs mainly come from trees that lean and bend while the are growing?
Row planted SYP with a majority of juvenile wood will give you fits with stress related sawing. I sawed some ~15" trees a couple of months ago and had to flip the cant 180° with every board. :-\
AdamT, I always saw through from the hump, regardless of the species. Poplar with sweep behaves similar to SYP.
Also, since my initial log setup on the sawmill bed is just second nature with me, I must apologize for and clarify a detail about centering the pith. In logs with sweep, the pith will almost always be closer to one edge. In this instance, center the log with the toe boards and center the pith as much as possible by turning the log. (You can kinda see this in Reply #30. The pith is about the same distance from the top and bottom of the log.) For me, even now, the hump/horn relationship is more important then the pith. Ironically, when I get the hump/horn turned correctly, the pith will be "almost" centered. The one fact that remains is that I never split a pith for framing lumber.
You questioned straight logs with an off-center pith. Yes, center the pith by turning the log, and center the log with the toe boards.
Again, all of my log setup is for opening the first face and then turning 90° for each of the other face openings.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on January 25, 2013, 07:15:36 AM
WDH over the years I find that if I cut bowed logs you will get bowed wood, just cut straght logs and make fire wood out of the junk.
Peter, I agree. If you already have sweep in the log, there will be stress and tension. I have also seen growth stress in seemingly straight logs. When you cut a board in a log with growth stress, the cut end of the board will rise off the end of the cant as you proceed to cut the rest of the board. I have seen it worst in small walnut logs or in the top (or last log) in walnut.
Banana logs. It is difficult to get good lumber from bad logs. I often tell customers that you can not make Chicken Pie out of Chicken Mess. They kinda understand and just say to "get what you can".
After you take the horns and hump off of some logs, there is not much left. :-\ Sometimes you can shorten it or whack it in two and increase your lumber yield.
Of course, I am still talking framing lumber. Getting grade furniture lumber takes grade quality logs.
bowed, or logs with sweep in my opinion come in several catagories, those that the sweep are greater than the small dia. and those that have less sweep than the small dia. I have found that some good can come from either, just takes some trimming and fuzzing of the stressed edges. Yes it takes longer, but good can come from them. As I described to a good friend earlier this week, some folks need "X" amount of boards from what logs they have. I just cut the best I can getting straight boards, lots of slivers, but straight boards, This is what I do, and yes the wife is on me a little bit, but why cut boards that have to be shorted to remove the crook or crown, when I can make straight ones, there are more logs, but once a board is cut, it pretty much is done. some folks just want the most they can get, but then realize when building they have a pile of 4' footers rather than 8-10 and 12's, just my way of doing it, working in thousandths and less most of my life has been a curse for lumber production, but yields good boards for the builder, david
Quote from: Kingcha on January 25, 2013, 08:16:45 AM
A newbie question. I am reading all this great info about how to cut logs with stress. I am assuming row planted trees that have grown straight up will have much less stress. Does the stress in the logs mainly come from trees that lean and bend while the are growing?
I just spent the day milling eucalypt and the guy had cut down several along the "edge" of his timber stand, so they all had branches one side and a bit of a lean..
I got a look at them and just thought "this will be interesting?!"
and yeah, like MM some cants i was flipping over after every board.
EVERY log was like this.
Most didnt show much off center pith, but you new it was coming.
Interesting side note;
Cows had got into the stand when the trees were younger and damaged a lot of bark.
the centers were damaged or rotting out on them which was interesting - i should have taken a photo of one where you could see where it healed over but had gotten to the core and made the damage years ago.
Cheers
Justin
Anytime you cut trees from the edge of a tract you are going to find stress in the logs.
Quote from: customsawyer on January 26, 2013, 05:14:02 AM
Anytime you cut trees from the edge of a tract you are going to find stress in the logs.
yeah, i hate it when thats all you are given to saw, it just makes the day more difficult. :(
Cheers
Justin
Well god made the trees ,I just do the best I can with them, maybe god likes bowed trees, he allways knows best :D
Opening the 3 face on a SYP log before sawing 1X12's. This did not cause any problems, but it was an eye opener for the Customer. :o
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1121_28Small29.JPG)
It just illustrates one of the interesting things that we all see. :)
Thanks for the good info. A couple of more questions on stress and cutting. Has anyone cut Red pines and how is the stress in them. Most all of them are 60'-70'+ and straight.
One other question about cutting. One of the guides i have read suggest after your opening cut flip log over 180°, but I see MM saying 90°. Did I miss something, does it just depend on the tree or what you are cutting. I am smart enough to know that listening to MM is a good thing. I know the best way for me to learn is by doing but I would rather have a head start. My first trees I cut will be red pines out of the middle of a stand.
Thanks all
I am thick skulled and Struggling a bit with terminology. MM you stated:
"Yes, center the pith by turning the log, and center the log with the toe boards.
Again, all of my log setup is for opening the first face and then turning 90° for each of the other face openings."
Does this mean to center the pith is to have it parallel to the deck? You put the horns toward the loader so normally the pith is parallel to the deck. Help me to understand what is meant by centering the log. Does this mean when you rotate the horns up the pith is no longer parallel to the deck ( it could be U shaped with the horns up) you use the toe boards to orient the log such that pith or ends of the log are the same distance from the deck?
this is exactly how I cut framing lumber, other wise the boards would have had the crown in them the distance of the bow. One must know what the boards will be used for, then cut accordingly. Siding will be fastened flat, so the bow will be attached flat. Crown can be used to an advantage with joist and trusses, but has to be maintained to a reasonable amount in my opinion. this is why I just cut the boards with multiple cuts to remove the stress, a lil more handling, but staight boards for the most part. It has to be said, some logs are bad dogs, and will not behave, such is life and milling.
Okay, i am like sam here. Sometimes i split a cant to get say 1x6's and 1x8's. But when i turn the cant the stress causes the ends to either curve up or down. This means my top and bottom two boards are coming out the wrong thickness. When cutting 2x's this can mean a loss of a lot off wood.
once you have your cant and are ready to start cutting down, its a good idea to flip your cant after every cut. by doing this you keep the stress in the middle, that way you don't end up having thick ends and thin middles. its more work but to me having the best sawn lumber does take more work. :)
I m sure it has already been said but stress is amplified expediential with log length. I'm not even sure what expediential means but though it sounded real cool. :D 8)
Quote from: red oaks lumber on January 26, 2013, 06:59:34 PM
once you have your cant and are ready to start cutting down, its a good idea to flip your cant after every cut. by doing this you keep the stress in the middle, that way you don't end up having thick ends and thin middles. its more work but to me having the best sawn lumber does take more work. :)
That was my thought, but my Dad(partner) thinks otherwise and I stopped arguing with him a LONG time ago! ;) Ohio_Biil it means the stress is more pronounced in longer logs. Magic Man posted an Excellent picture of the stress from a first cut above. The longer the cut, the more the stress in the log shows up.
I have had 20'ers act just fine, (pine) that is, and others go crazy, I have had 8'ers, go crazy too, I think this is why it takes at least three cuts to see where the stress really is, then make the adustments to any pattern that might have been made, and then add to the additional post, flip, flip, flip, to keep the center and stress even as best as possible. Yea it is slower but the boards will give the reward. Otherwise, find an excuse and just keep cutting. imo, sometimes there is nothing you can do, and pine is not our choice of firewood here. Good kindling, but not much else,
Quote from: Kingcha on January 26, 2013, 09:45:03 AMOne other question about cutting. One of the guides i have read suggest after your opening cut flip log over 180°, but I see MM saying 90°. Did I miss something, does it just depend on the tree or what you are cutting.
No you did not miss anything. It has been said many times over on the thread, that everything is "general" and everything depends upon the log that you are sawing. It also depends upon the sawyer and the sawing technique that he has developed. With good logs and everything is going fine, I turn 90°. That eliminates one step while sawing, BUT, some logs need turning 180° for the second face opening. I probably had to do that on about 4-5 logs Thursday. Again, you have to watch the log. If it is stubborn about squaring up on the side supports so that you are confidant about your 90° angle on the second face, then turn it another 90° laying the first face opening on the bed and saw.
Quote from: samandothers on January 26, 2013, 11:06:08 AMMM you stated: "Yes, center the pith by turning the log, and center the log with the toe boards.
I knew that one was coming back. ;D What I said above is exactly how I set up most logs to saw, because most logs have an amount of sweep. Maybe not much but some, and if your do not handle it properly, your lumber will crook. Yes, some framing lumber with a crook (crown) is usable in some instances, but I try to minimize it when I saw.
It is just so difficult to put into words exactly how to saw every log that you are faced with. We have mostly been discussing logs with sweep because those are the ones that have the stress that requires special handling by the sawyer. Logs with sweep will have an off-center pith.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN1089.JPG)
OK, look at the above log that I have turned and have the horns toward the loader. Even though the pith is off-center, with the logs turned as I have it, the pith is about the same distance from the top of the log and the bottom. Turning and placing the horns toward the loaded, also tended to center the pith. It just happens that way. Now I will level the log so that the center of the big/little ends are the same distance from the bed with the toe boards.
With the picture, did this make more sense ???
Again thank you Magicman. I am sure I will have more ??? down the road. At this point I think I have read enough to jump log first into sawing. At that point I am sure more questions will arise.
Matt
MM
Thank you for your time and patience. Picture is worth a thousand words, and the words helped a great deal too!
If you imagine a plane through the length of the pith you rotate (turn) and then lift (with toe boards) to get the plan parallel to the plane of the deck. The toe boards are used to remove the taper on the side of the first cut.
I think all I did was restate in a different way, a way that helps me make sense of it, but the result is the same as you described.
Thanks again for addressing all the questions.
Even with our best efforts, we can never get it just right because the log/tree is still the boss. The log is not perfect and neither is sawing. Sometimes, close is close enough.
One fact remains, when I am setting a log up to saw framing lumber, leveling/centering the pith is secondary to the hump/horn orientation. I only level the pith as close it it might go, and I never ever split the pith.
Off subject, but leveling and centering the pith of a large Oak log can be challenging. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1343_28Custom29.JPG)
This butt was a bit over 38", and required some Bibbying. ;D
.......and they sat on the tailgate and watched. :)
I love a good audience, especially an older guy that once worked at a sawmill. ;D
Water oak? This one has a lot of heartwood.
It did not have any of the "normal" Water Oak defects and turned out some exceptional 1"X8" lumber. The pith was perfectly centered and it probably was the best Water Oak that I have ever sawed. :) The only QS was just what came out naturally as I sawed the 8" cant through.
As I previously stated, this has nothing to do with framing lumber, but was just an illustration about centering the pith. Big ones can be difficult but are still possible.
Magicman (or anyone for that matter), I'm relatively new to the forum, but in the month or so I've been here I've seen a number of references to "Bibbying" or "Bibby" https://forestryforum.com/board/Smileys/default/huh.gif. not found in the woodopedia. pretty sure it is referring to trimming down a log with chainsaw to fit on the mill ,but wanted to make sure. also, does it have anything to do with Bibbyman and is there a story behind the term? Sure am learning alot soaking up y'alls knowledge and looking forward to the day when I have a mill and can put it to use.
Yes it does refer to Bibbyman and his technique that he showed in pic form of trimming down an oversize log on the bandmill. We seemed to pick up on the slang term for the procedure and refer to it as bibbying.
What a wonderful question. When I use the term it does indeed describe reducing the butt of the log with either a chainsaw or the sawmill and usually rotating the log by 1/8 th increments.
And yes, the term Bibbying is affectionately attached to our guy Bibbyman who has described the method of creating an octagon as we reduce the log's butt diameter.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Follow up question to Bibby/Bibbying/Bibbyman.
Does the name Bibbyman come from those bib overalls he is wearing in his avatar?
BTW, I've almost sub-consciously began using the term "bibbying" to describe trimming a log to fit the mill. The word just seems to fit the action. ;D
Regarding turning the cant every cut to minimize stress...I suspect that's done much more frequently when using a hydraulic mill than when using a manual one. ;)
QuoteDoes the name Bibbyman come from those bib overalls he is wearing in his avatar?
:D :D :D
Start a new thread and see how many wrong guesses you get with that question. ;) ;) ;D
Quote from: Tree Feller on January 27, 2013, 10:13:20 PMRegarding turning the cant every cut to minimize stress...I suspect that's done much more frequently when using a hydraulic mill than when using a manual one. ;)
No matter how much work it is, if the cant ends lift up off of the sawmill bed, you are getting thicker board ends and the correct thickness in the board center. That extra thickness is being stolen from the bottom (dog) board. No matter what, you must rotate the cant 180° to equalize this stress. ROL described doing this in Reply #71.
the log, cant has to be rotated! I have not cut as much as MM, but am getting closer,and know for a fact, that even boards can be obtained, unless the cant is rotated. there is not much discussion on this left to discuss. david
I made another series of pictures today detailing sawing 2X4's from a log. The camera angle is still a bit screwy but it is better this time.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1441_28Small29.JPG)
The pith is badly off center, but the log is turned so that the horns are toward the log loader. The red crayon marks the pith and also the top and bottom of the targeted three 2X4 cants.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1442_28Small29.JPG)
The first face has been opened and the two side flitches have been sawn which will later be edged.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1443_28Custom29.JPG)
The log has been turned 90°, the second face opened, and flitches taken to bring that face down to size. Note the red crayon mark on the right.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1444_28Small29.JPG)
The log has again been turned 90°, the third face opened, and flitches removed to bring the cant down to the proper size for splitting. Note that the pith was not split.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1445_28Small29.JPG)
The final 90° turn which brings the three cants vertical for the last face opening and saw through.
The customer wanted the flitches (side lumber) edged into 2X6's.
Thanks MM! I've learned a lot!
I like the use of the crayon. Really makes things visible and I've done it before with marker. Do you use the crayon daily or just for illustration purposes for the forum?
Quote from: Magicman on January 28, 2013, 08:52:56 PM
No matter how much work it is, if the cant ends lift up off of the sawmill bed, you are getting thicker board ends and the correct thickness in the board center. That extra thickness is being stolen from the bottom (dog) board. No matter what, you must rotate the cant 180° to equalize this stress. ROL described doing this in Reply #71.
Well, I realize that it's different sawing commercially but since I saw only for myself, unless it was some very special wood, I would simply put a log like that in the burn pile and get another, better behaved, log. In fact, I would go buy the lumber before I spent all the time and effort to turn a cant manually
every cut. It's bad enough turning one three times just to square a cant.
BTW, MM, I really appreciate that last pictoral showing how you saw for 2x lumber. I have some SYP to saw into construction lumber and have a much better idea now how to go about it to get the most yield from the logs.
Wow! I loved this thread. Wish I had 100 acres of timber and a woodmizer :) I think I understand the terms being used except for "horn". MM when you say you have the 'horn turned out' is that refering to the ends of the log pointing out?
Quote from: proteus on January 29, 2013, 10:42:28 AM
Wow! I loved this thread. Wish I had 100 acres of timber and a woodmizer :) I think I understand the terms being used except for "horn". MM when you say you have the 'horn turned out' is that refering to the ends of the log pointing out?
Makes me wish we had a bunch of SYP around here!!
On logs with a bow in them, there will horns and a opposite face with a hump. The horns are the ends of the log that stick up or out, while the hump is, well, like a hump. Picture the log as an elongated "U" with the horns being the top of the U...
As i thought, but just wanted to make sure. Thanks
Not all logs have stress that has to be dealt with. Yesterday I sawed 9 SYP logs and only one had to be flipped, and it only once. :)
Quote from: AdamT on January 29, 2013, 08:34:42 AMI like the use of the crayon. Really makes things visible and I've done it before with marker. Do you use the crayon daily or just for illustration purposes for the forum?
The lumber crayon is a permanent fixture with me. Most of the marks on the above pictures were for illustration, but I do make a couple of marks on every log that I saw.
Generally speaking, I measure the diameter of the big end, (just say that it is 16"). I go to the small end and measure/mark it's center. I raise the toe board so that that (Tom) mark on the small end is the same height above the bed as the center of the big end is. (8")
I then measure and determine where my target is and make a mark. I measure from the saw bed to that second mark to determine my saw height. If I see boards above that mark, I adjust the blade height accordingly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0294.JPG)
I use a retractable lumber crayon holder.
very instructive!
Now I have to find the Dutch words for the things I learned... Nobody here (in the Netherlands) will get me if I talk about horns, humps, pith and don't even mention 'Bibbying' ;D
:D :D :D :D :D
I been reading back thru older post to learn what I can, being new to milling. For those that are new to milling, this thread gave me a lot of info and I thank each and every poster in this thread.
Now only about 260 more pages to read. ;D
Quote from: roghair on February 02, 2013, 07:41:55 PM
very instructive!
Now I have to find the Dutch words for the things I learned... Nobody here (in the Netherlands) will get me if I talk about horns, humps, pith and don't even mention 'Bibbying' ;D
I've never thought of it that way. :)
i probably flip cants more that most but, when running a finish planer you see real quick that its the small things about sawing that really stand out :) i have always said if you want to become a real good sawyer, run a 2 sided planer and moulder for 6 months. the words awe "close enough" or its only "rough sawn "or the blade isn't that dull, won't roll off your tongue any more :)
Quote from: red oaks lumber on February 04, 2015, 06:34:46 PM
i probably flip cants more that most but, when running a finish planer you see real quick that its the small things about sawing that really stand out :) i have always said if you want to become a real good sawyer, run a 2 sided planer and moulder for 6 months. the words awe "close enough" or its only "rough sawn "or the blade isn't that dull, won't roll off your tongue any more :)
:D :D :D :D :D smiley_thumbsup
Thanks this taught me alot as well.
I need to cut a bunch of 2x4s for a shed soon
I thought that it would be best to split the pith.
Quote from: Tree Dan on February 04, 2015, 08:36:52 PM
Thanks this taught me alot as well.
I need to cut a bunch of 2x4s for a shed soon
I thought that it would be best to split the pith.
As green as I am, I'm sure that this post will help others. That was the reason I got it back on page one. Us new bees need all the help we can get. ;D
The juvenile wood in the core of the tree around the pith (about 6 - 10 years growth) shrinks just a little bit longitudinally (lengthwise) while the mature wood on the outside of the juvenile core does not. So, if you put the pith and the juvenile wood on one edge and mature wood on the other, the little bit of longitudinal shrinkage of the strip of juvenile wood is just enough to pull the board into a "C" shape, and your board will have side bend. This is why it is better to center the pith in a board. Then it will dry straight without the side bend.
Here is some side bend in hackberry.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Hackberry1.jpg)
I have read back to page 133 on this board. This has ALWAYS been the most instructive post. MM's finest.
Best topic ever - thanks for all the great information!
My question-
Proceeding like MM does you get to your 3rd face cut and you log reacts with sweep, bow, whatever we want to call it. Now I have a 3 sided log with 'horns' again. What now? Is the tension in a log pull or push?
My gut says cut the horn side first, hump second, but what do others do?
most of the time I saw like you mentioned, but I rotate 90°, If the sweep is such that I cannot get a good face to square then I saw the horns on the second cut. I don't flip 180° very often on the face cuts but do once the cant is sized for whatever I'm sawing out, and also to help even the stresses out.
It generally does not matter which face that you open or when. My method is just simpler for me because I almost always rotate 90° and any other sequence will require an additional turning.
However you open the log is your option, just as long as you set the cants up for the final saw through to be from either the hump or horn faces.
"However you open the log is your option, just as long as you set the cants up for the final saw through to be from either the hump or horn faces."
OK,
The way you saw is the shortest route to that goal, and uses best practices, that is obvious.
Thanks,
QuoteIs the tension in a log pull or push?
Tension is pull... compression is push, when talking relieving growth stresses during sawing.
When drying the wood, then you may have some wood (juvenile core area) that will shrink more and "pull".
Hope that helps and doesn't add to any confusion.
Quote from: beenthere on February 05, 2015, 10:00:54 AM
QuoteIs the tension in a log pull or push?
Tension is pull... compression is push, when talking relieving growth stresses during sawing.
When drying the wood, then you may have some wood (juvenile core area) that will shrink more and "pull".
Hope that helps and doesn't add to any confusion.
My fault I didn't state that quite right. If the tree was a leaner the inside of the curve in under tension and the outside is under compression. My question I guess is when you cut this what happens? Cutting the tension side, it gets relieved but does that mean it pushes the log the other way toward the side already under compression or pulls tighter or is pushed by the compression side. I'm clearly overthinking this.
If you cut the tension side of a log, the ends of that slab will curl up. The cant will curve down, maybe only a little bit, but it will be high in the middle if you run the saw across it. If you flip the log over and cut a slab or a slab and a couple boards off, typically this high center will correct itself, at least partially. ;D
High tension logs result in curved lumber if the tension is not released during the cutting process. Often this means a lot of turning and maybe some correcting cuts with more waste. ::)
DMcCoy
Google "tension wood and compression wood", and you will find some good illustrations of where the tension wood that is laid down in new growth in leaning hardwood (angiosperms) trees and in the softwoods (gymnosperms).
Growth stresses can be confused with loading stresses (i.e compression load and tension load), and that may be what is showing up here. As well as there is the reaction wood laid down when a tree is leaning.
So cutting cants as MM does you could get boards that bow the thin way - easier to correct in balloon framing vs the bowing the hard way as the picture in reply #109 above. It all makes sense.
beenthere - went to wiki reaction wood. Thanks.
No disrespect intended to MM, I applaud his accomplishments through the years, but If I tried to saw 2x's on a regular basis like shown, I would end up with a pile of usable short boards, Please understand some logs will behave, just have not seen it here in my very few I've sawn in comparison to MM. I have found trim cuts to relieve the stress are critical to straight boards, bar none. I say, try it and see, proof is in the pudding, again I apologize to our MM for the comment, but pretty sure he has skin thicker than his new aprin ;D Pine can be unruly as can most other timber, I've just never trusted pine and never will.
subscribed
Quote from: drobertson on February 05, 2015, 09:16:37 PM
No disrespect intended to MM, I applaud his accomplishments through the years, but If I tried to saw 2x's on a regular basis like shown, I would end up with a pile of usable short boards, Please understand some logs will behave, just have not seen it here in my very few I've sawn in comparison to MM. I have found trim cuts to relieve the stress are critical to straight boards, bar none. I say, try it and see, proof is in the pudding, again I apologize to our MM for the comment, but pretty sure he has skin thicker than his new aprin ;D Pine can be unruly as can most other timber, I've just never trusted pine and never will.
drobertson
So how do you cut 2X's material ? Please explain how your method differs from MM.
Dr - could you explain how you go about it. Reaction wood is something I have had little experience with. One really bad one,should have pulled it off the mill - it was a dog leg - worst lumber ever.
I have 3 trees I need to take down that have tipped twice during growing. butt diameter to 12 - 20". I'm hoping to cut the two curves out and save the straight pieces.
Re-read this entire post yesterday before cutting some SYP studs. Alot of turning for a little manual mill and I let a two side squared cant roll off the deck. Took about 30 minutues to get it back on. I cut 2 logs and ended up with 40 2x4 studs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34007/IMG_20150205_105511_417.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34007/IMG_20150205_121051_720.jpg)
Quote from: francismilker on January 18, 2013, 05:38:51 PM
Great pics and tutorial on maximizing board production here. I wish I had some syp close to me. The nearest is around 65 miles SE of here and it's owned by weyerhouser if I heard right. It would be nice to have access to a dozen or more good logs for making some framing lumber.
Are any of these species good for framing? Oak, hickory, red oak, willow, cottonwood, sycamore, bois'darc, winged elm, or blackjack!!!! If so, I've got tons of it. Not many softwoods around these parts that are worth much to my knowledge. :o
Don't think bois'darc would make good studs. Black Jack is good for firewood. I have some cotton wood I and going to cut into dimension lumber to see how it works.
Quote from: drobertson on February 05, 2015, 09:16:37 PM
No disrespect intended to MM, I applaud his accomplishments through the years, but If I tried to saw 2x's on a regular basis like shown, I would end up with a pile of usable short boards, Please understand some logs will behave, just have not seen it here in my very few I've sawn in comparison to MM. I have found trim cuts to relieve the stress are critical to straight boards, bar none. I say, try it and see, proof is in the pudding, again I apologize to our MM for the comment, but pretty sure he has skin thicker than his new aprin ;D Pine can be unruly as can most other timber, I've just never trusted pine and never will.
They way MM is cutting, it looks as he is releasing the stress out the logs as he is cutting down to his cant.
If you have a better way, please explain. Us new bees need all the help we can get. Thanks!
My experience with hardwoods has been that the heaviest stresses seem to concentrated in the sapwood. Once that is gone, usually the problem is still there, but smaller.
The heaviest stress usually occurs in leaners and in branch logs. Younger, fast growing trees are worse and older, slower growing trees usually aren't as bad. :-\ :snowball:
I'm bringing this back up due to a sticker question.
I'm fixing to mill some 2x10x12 for floor joints. I had framed out the sub framing with 4x6 ers with treated lumber. This will be built off the ground on house piers. I have those set at 6' on center due to using green lumber.
My question. Would it be better to stand up these 2x10's for a short time across the 4x6 ers till I have enough cut? Say just spacing them a inch apart to dry a little. Then nail/ brace them in place? I'm hoping to get enough cut in the next two weeks if the rain holds out. From there, my sub floor will be green 1 bys.
If you sticker them in a stack and run a fan on them, they will lose a good deal of moisture in just two or three weeks, and some of the largest initial shrinkage will occur, and all that is a good thing.
i would lay them flat and sticker very well :)
Quote from: fishfighter on February 14, 2015, 04:42:51 AM
I'm bringing this back up due to a sticker question.
I'm fixing to mill some 2x10x12 for floor joints. I had framed out the sub framing with 4x6 ers with treated lumber. This will be built off the ground on house piers. I have those set at 6' on center due to using green lumber.
My question. Would it be better to stand up these 2x10's for a short time across the 4x6 ers till I have enough cut? Say just spacing them a inch apart to dry a little. Then nail/ brace them in place? I'm hoping to get enough cut in the next two weeks if the rain holds out. From there, my sub floor will be green 1 bys.
I framed my house with green 2x8 T & G. They shrank so bad that the T's and G's are almost worthless. Depending on what you are building, if you could give them some time to dry(shrink) you might be happier, again depending on your use.
QuoteI framed my house with green 2x8 T & G.
I'm trying to picture this... ???
Quote from: DMcCoy on February 14, 2015, 08:55:37 AM
I framed my house with green 2x8 T & G. They shrank so bad that the T's and G's are almost worthless.
I have learned lessons like this. :)
Well not sure if this is right to say, but when we added on a sun room in place of a deck, I choose 2" treated pine t&g. It was green and wet, I noticed this but I hired the job. Now, the gaps are such you can see the earth below, If I ever do this again I will sticker the treated stock. Now for green, if would not machine it till dry. Or make some healthy deep overlaps, No, I would let it dry then machine.
These 2x10's are red oak. Fresh fell trees. There is so much water running out them it is leaving a puddle under them. :D
Guess I will sticker them.
Thanks.
Quote from: DMcCoy on February 06, 2015, 07:28:18 AM
I have 3 trees I need to take down that have tipped twice during growing. butt diameter to 12 - 20". I'm hoping to cut the two curves out and save the straight pieces.
I cut some curved pieces for a customer that they sold for making benches. The curve was such that I needed all of the 24" of throat to saw them. If it was Poston he would saw those curved logs into 2-1/2 to 4" thick slabs, add 3 firewood blocks, and sell it for $300.00 as an SAR (some assembly required) fire pit bench. Just an idea.
Gerald
Quote from: beenthere on February 14, 2015, 10:15:50 AM
QuoteI framed my house with green 2x8 T & G.
I'm trying to picture this... ???
Sorry bad phrasing. Green decking.:/
Quote from: GAB on February 15, 2015, 08:28:26 AM
Quote from: DMcCoy on February 06, 2015, 07:28:18 AM
I have 3 trees I need to take down that have tipped twice during growing. butt diameter to 12 - 20". I'm hoping to cut the two curves out and save the straight pieces.
I cut some curved pieces for a customer that they sold for making benches. The curve was such that I needed all of the 24" of throat to saw them. If it was Poston he would saw those curved logs into 2-1/2 to 4" thick slabs, add 3 firewood blocks, and sell it for $300.00 as an SAR (some assembly required) fire pit bench. Just an idea.
Gerald
That is a really good idea, thanks.
I got a request for live edge lumber for sofa tables.
I'll bet I could find a home for curved pieces as well.
Live edged curved pieces make interesting sofa tables too.
I'm dropping off a couple slabs of red oak today. Two pieces that are about 3" thick and a easy 24" wide by 8'. The wife wanted them to make a couple benches for around our fish pond. Told her $200 is much better today. 8)
Oh, I did sticker those2x10 and 2x6 's I cut yesterday.
Quote from: drobertson on February 05, 2015, 09:16:37 PM
No disrespect intended to MM, I applaud his accomplishments through the years, but If I tried to saw 2x's on a regular basis like shown, I would end up with a pile of usable short boards, Please understand some logs will behave, just have not seen it here in my very few I've sawn in comparison to MM. I have found trim cuts to relieve the stress are critical to straight boards, bar none. I say, try it and see, proof is in the pudding, again I apologize to our MM for the comment, but pretty sure he has skin thicker than his new aprin ;D Pine can be unruly as can most other timber, I've just never trusted pine and never will.
I have to agree with this, pine in general isn't bad, but it can still catch you.
Compression wood will always bite you in the behind if its there and not dealt with.
Cheers
Justin
The W Pine here in the North East is easy to cut . And behaves well. I find I cut W Pine 1" boards or 8"x8" beam, 2" is hemlock or spruce.
No offense taken by me whatsoever.
I have stated many times that if the log is not opened properly, you are in trouble sawing SYP. And then there are times when you do everything right and it still will bite your butt, especially Plantation Pine.
I saw too many Mbf each year for it to be a concern of mine. It's my "bread & butter" sawing. :)
MM, the more I mill, the better I'm getting at it. I had always been a wood worker and can read a board on how it will act out, building boats.
So far, 99% of the logs I had been milling, all boards have been coming off flat. I been flipping the cant way more then I need to, but it seams to help reading the cant.
I guess only time will tell once my boards start drying out if I am milling the cant right. Oh, the trees I been felling are real nice and straight. (Red Oaks) I been picking the best of the best.
I was pretty sure Lynn took no offense, and glad of that, I just know he has sawn more framing lumber from pine than I have for sure, but I am a gaining ;D The reason I made the mention was for newer folks getting in, and having and building a customer base, they will run into situations where folks know just enough to get into trouble, ex. a half dozen logs that will yield "x" amount of 2x4's, so the customer says rip'em out please, and then they get the rest of the story, not what they had envisioned in numbers of straight ones, that's all I was trying to get across. It takes time to learn reading logs, and they all can bite,
They sure can. Wished I took some pictures, but I open a sweet red oak. The best of the best I could pick. Sure a hell, it wasn't even firewood. I couldn't even pull 1x's off it. :'( Nothing on the outside said it was twisted and full of knots. First branches were well 20' up. Butt end was 28". :'(
:P
thank mm I ben sawing frameing lumber the way you show on post It help me be more productive before I was watseing to much time and wood thanks again I also upgrade to fine adjust outriggers no digging and shinning
Been cutting some framing lumber this week so I went back and read this post again. If you square up a cant to 16" and you want to get 2x8's out of that cant, how would you saw it? Cut and turn till you get the can't to 7 1/2" or split the log? I can see how you can not split the pith with 2x4's and 2x6's, but when you get a big log and want 2x8's or 2x10's it would be a lot faster to split it and saw to the deck. Plus a lot less waiste.
Never split the pith unless you like side-bended, crooked boards.
There is no waste flatrock58. Bring the cant down from each side to 7½" or whatever and then saw through. The side boards that you took off will be edged to your 7½". These side boards can be split because the pith is several inches away and is contained within your center cant.
There is no exception to not split the pith when sawing framing lumber. This is where reading the log and determining each cut before that cut is made is an absolute necessity.
Edit: Just a side note. The measurement used by member flatrock58 was 7½" and I used his example. It should be noted that a "factory" 2X8 measures 7¼". The extra ¼" is oversize on green lumber to allow for shrinkage. On beetle killed or partially dried logs, I may only oversize to 7 3/8".
Just thought I would bump this thread. Lots of us new sawyers these days. Great info here.
Quote from: UncleMoustache on March 28, 2021, 12:56:11 PM
Just thought I would bump this thread. Lots of us new sawyers these days. Great info here.
.....and I read every word!! Thanks! I learned (or relearned a lot!)
Trouble with sawing 11/2 x 31/2 is your not allowing for shrinkage and your newly sawn framing lumber is now below grade , 15/8 x 33/4 should keep most from being undersized.