I got a call today from some folks that want to build a barn. Went to check it out this afternoon, 48' x 60' with loft. They have hundreds of acres of lob lolly pines which got me to thinking how about using their trees for the lumber instead of going to the lumber yard as they had planned.
I got the bright idea that this would be an opportunity to finally get the bandmill I've been dreaming of (you guys are a really bad influence) and mill most of the lumber from their trees. I figured about 18-20k bd ft for the frame and b & b siding. They have already marked out several blocks of trees for the loggers who will be there soon. I'm thinking they would drop the trees and I wouldn't have to. If not, I would charge additional for that.
I need some pricing input from y'all as I am brand new to this. Only worked around a bandmill once years ago.
The particulars are : lob lolly pine 20 to 24 inches at the base and tall and straight; I'll be cutting 1x for siding and batten strips, 8x8 for posts, 8x10 and 8x12 for beams, 4x10 for rafters, 4x8 for loft joists , lengths from 12' to 24'; using my help to off bear and stack; my skid loader to handle logs and lumber.
I've been looking on here for bf pricing and seem to be seeing $.45 to $.50 bd ft . Would this be a fair price to work with ? If not , what would ?
Also, I've been building full time since I was 15 , but never with green lumber. Kiln drying or even letting it air dry for more than a week or so wouldn't be an option, because they need the barn up now. They are using it to host weddings, first one booked for beginning of June. Not planning on a true timber frame but more what we refer to as "post and beam" in these parts. Would I run into major shrinking issues? Or do you think it would dry ok in place ? Obviously no heating or ac since its a barn, just good old breeze and sunshine.
If it matters as far as pricing, I'm in central VA. Thanks in advance for your opinions and advice.
Shannon
Sumday.......WOW! Let's recap.
It's February......the trees are still standing.......you don't have a mill yet.......they want a barn NOW.........and have planned a wedding for June of this year? say_what
I charge 25 cents a BF to saw my customers PINE logs. :)
Exactly what I thought David. I would think the learning curve of how to run a mill would set any person back longer than expected. I milled every chance I could for myself for 6-8 weeks before I felt confident enough to saw for a customer. Plus delivery time of a new/ used mill.
Building the barn won't be the problem. Good luck and I hope it works out for you!!
I also have a wedding venue business plan, sounds like same thing the're wanting. My own trees and everything. Im with you guys. Maybe with a June booking for 2014!
But I hope it works for you and them
Sounds like a good plan sumday, I don't know the pricing up there, .45-.50 sounds a bit on the high side for here in missouri, I charge in the .25 range, with your equipment there might need to be some consideration, some of those beams will be a handful to move and stack. If you have'nt sawed very much, I have to wonder about the learning curve, and getting some mills tuned in sometimes takes a lil time, not always but start up issues can occur. I would love to jump on that one for sure. I see some good $$$$ right there, and it sounds like great logs to work with as well. I have to say at .50/bd ft you could still beat store bought price, but not the timelyness of it. I see it like this, no set backs, good days to saw, a mill that runs, a good system of stacking and handling, steady supply of logs, two weeks and you are done cutting, just a ball park estimate. I hope you get it and a good mill ready for the task, david
It's not your fault they booked the wedding in a barn they don't have yet but it just might be you they blame if you take longer than they think you should to mill the lumber. It sounds like a great project if they weren't in a hurry.
Quote from: Ocklawahaboy on February 12, 2013, 08:37:26 PM
It sounds like a great project if they weren't in a hurry.
It does sound like it would be fun to saw this barn package. But your right.....if they start blaming you for delays, the fun will stop. >:(
Thanks for the feedback so far. Sounds like I might have been a bit high on my price guesstimate. As for time frame, their plan is to order a "barn package" from a west coast supplier (to the tune of almost 70k ; conventional lumber not timber frame) and have it shipped to VA. Wouldn't be here for a month. I explained to them we could buy all the same material here for far less than 70k, and no cross country freight.
And as I was standing in the middle of all these lovely trees talking with them this milling idea came to me. I figured IF I could pick up a used mill, which is all my wallet could handle, I could spend some learning time on some logs at my place. Then go set up at the job once I had some idea what I was doing, and begin to produce some framing sooner than the 30 days they were looking at.
I know we can build the barn with conventional lumber and have them in by June. Maybe that's the way to go and keep my mill dreams on hold so as to avoid a possible disgruntled customer.
Thanks for the explanation Sumday. It sounded different in your OP.
Good Luck.....sounds like the wedding will be as planned. smiley_love smiley_thumbsup
I hope it wasn't from BarnPro, one of our customers tried that in '11 and the material sat in our yard and spoiled before they figured out they couldn't get it permitted in Mass. I could have cut them a timber frame for the same money. ::)
You hit the nail on the head , Dave. I've had lots of experience with "kit buildings" after years of building kit log homes. Sometimes things don't go as smoothly as they could.
In this instance, the package, which was $80k, was basically $40k worth of building materials and a set of plans that were no good for here.
So are the permits and grade requirements for local building codes ok with green, un-graded lumber for a barn that will be a commercial enterprise, from the sounds of the wedding business plans? ??
The owner isn't planning on informing the county that it's anything other than a barn. $25 permit, no inspection. We'll see how that works out.
Then if something disastrous happens, the producer of the building materials and/or contractor takes the big hit?
Keep your eyes wide open and get good insurance.
You fellers have some good points about time and liability. I think I'll have to let common sense over rule mill desire right now. Thanks for all the input.
Notwithstanding other opinions, If I were you, I would seriously consider it. If you are an experienced builder and not an assembler, a post and beam is a walk in the park. Barns have been built from green lumber since they've been building barns. Aside for allowing for some shrinkage, not an issue. Cutting the lumber is the easy part. your skills as a builder will make the difference between a sound and unsound structure. advise your client that some movement must be expected working with lumber off the saw. If they understand and want to proceed, make sure they sign off on it in your building contract. Figure the cost of a hydraulic mill into the cost of the job. Practice sawing by cutting blocking for the lumber, perhaps a temporary log deck, stickers etc, etc, etc...by the time the site prep is done you should be comfortable with the mill. You have scores of people here to help you through the sawing process and answer all your questions. A job like this is the type of job that will bring you more work if you do it well. I would encourage you to work up a bid. Make a cut list and figure your BF +10%. multiply by .35 per bf to arrive at your price for sawing. figure all your expenses and compare the 2 numbers. adjust the bf cost up or down to cover labor, expenses and a modest profit
from the info you've shared, it looks like a really good opportunity for you. I'll be watching your thread with interest.
Quote from: beenthere on February 12, 2013, 09:35:52 PM
Then if something disastrous happens, the producer of the building materials and/or contractor takes the big hit?
Keep your eyes wide open and get good insurance.
Beenthere is offering you some very sound advise in both of his recent posts. I will add that I have been running my mill for six years and my expierence was such that I learned the hard way that it's not as simple as buying a mill and start cutting. I have cut a clamp off, tore the fiber optic cables of my set works system , pinched the band blade half way through a cut because of a bowing cant and destroyed many a blade hitting forgin objects in the log. A metel detector doesn't detect concrete, rocks , glass and ceramic electrical insulators.
It cost me a $1600.00 in repairs learning to operate it. I had no teacher. Find an expierenced sawyer to help you learn to operate a mill if you ultimately get one.
Pete Conlogue Chesapeake, Virginia.
solomon...Keep your eyes open and have good insurance? yes, good advice. However, the only disaster I can think of that would affect Shannon is spontaneous mechanical failure. There are relatively few instances of building failure and the vast majority of those are due to poor engineering not material failure. further, shannon is a building contractor and this is not his first time out. I'm fairly sure he has a good grasp of sound construction methods. One runs a greater risk of having a guest slip on your stoop and sue you for damages than having a barn suddenly collapse. do you stop having guests to your house or do you take steps to ensure their safety? Do you stop building or do you take steps to ensure everything you build meets or exceeds the building codes? If someone has to worry whether the building they just put up is going to stay up, they should probably consider another line of work.
Making good lumber is really not that hard as long as you understand and apply a few basic princples. Shannon has the added benefit of already knowing what good lumber should look like and will have the advantage of working with really good logs. There is more of a learning curve learning how to efficiently operate a hydraulic mill, but after a couple weeks of 10hr days, he should be ready to start sawing for real. Shannon also has the additional benefit of a 24/7 help desk where dozens of pros are available to help him through any difficulty, right to the end. IMO, he could not have a better opportunity. The only real unknown is the logistics involved to meet the deadline and how can he make it all come together on time and under budget. ;)
I think its doable, and if your ambitious enough, give it a try. But there is one thing about the way this has to be done fast. You are going to need a decent mill fast, and one ready to go. I would contact Woodmizer and see if they have a quality used mill, checked out by the company, and get to sawing. A hydraulic mill, preferably a 40. Unlike us here in Kansas, you should have people available from their service department back in that area. Also, if need be, find a portable mill or two back there that could help you if you see getting it done on time is going to be an issue. I don't think pricing your cutting in your figuring at .45 is unreasonable. In all reality, it won't add that much to the cost of the package. Much of the cost will be putting it up. My guess is, they really don't value the trees anyway. And it can be a nice selling point that the lumber all came from their property. Some people set a great store by that. You should be able to get all the lumber cut in 30 days max. One thing; 24 ft could be a problem. Can you design it to get by with 20 ft max?
It's one thing to deliver sawn lumber from a cut list, and another to design the barn or the cut list. If you're copying a package make sure all the information is there. I"d be cautious and proceed carefully, if neither you nor they have good knowledge about exactly what is in the package or what they need.
Well , I checked with the building dept and all they require is a $50 permit and the owners signature stating that it is not a residence.
Some replies :
beenthere and Solomon - thanks for the cautions, it is usually best to look at things from every angle. I do have good insurance (which I haven't had to use in 20+ years thankfully) and I do realize it would take some time to learn the new skill. It's also great to know if I have any problems/questions you all are here to help. I think the last time I checked the milling experience poll was just over a kajillion years total exp :)
5quarter - sounds like you and I are on the same page. Thanks for the encouragement.
Kansas- thanks for the good advice on locating a mill. I've already been contacted by one FF member in my area about assisting or cutting it all. I definitely need 23 ft cut capability for this project.
terrifictimbersllc- I would use my own design and cut list, but good point all the same. thanks
Y'all are an incredible resource. Thanks again. I'll keep you posted if the decide to take the milling route instead of the "Lowes" approach.
Shannon
i'm with 5quarter on this one. yeah the timeline is a bit limited BUT this seems like too good of an opportunity to let pass you by. what a perfect excuse to buy a sawmill. plus, you have the best sawing resource of all....the forestry forum! this may be one of those chances that if you didn't take you'd kick yourself down the road.....
plus who doesn't love a good challenge! :laugh: :laugh: