Over a year ago, I found this sad excuse for a saw in a dusty corner of an antique shop:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_0249.JPG)
It was in wretched condition. It was badly kinked, poorly filed, and had obviously been kept toe-down in the dirt for many years. The entire plate was caked in rust, but the last 4" of the saw was basically disintegrating.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_0246.JPG)
The handle was grungy and bleached with age.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_0250.JPG)
But I decided to take the saw home for one reason: split sawnuts. This was the first saw I had ever found with split sawnuts. For over 100 years, all handsaws had split sawnuts, but when the familiar domed sawnuts were invented around 1880, split sawnuts were all but gone within a decade. These particular sawnuts are "Munger" sawnuts, patented in 1869. They date this saw pretty comfortably to the 1870's.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_0247.JPG)
I did some research to try to learn the identity of the saw, but to no avail. There were no visible identifying marks on it, and none of my handsaw-loving buddies seemed to know anything about it. So it got tucked into a dusty cabinet for over a year - until last week. For some silly reason, I decided to take a second look at the saw. The kink(s) didn't look so bad upon another inspection. The last 4" of the toe were obviously shot, but the rust on the other 22" did look quite so bad. And the handle – well, it was 140 years old and still had both horns intact, so certainly that could be fixed. So I decided to clean her up, beat her straight, cut her down to a 22" panel saw, and file her sharp.
The process started with disassembly. Split sawnuts are notoriously difficult to remove from old saws, and they require a special screwdriver, which I made out of an old sawplate. Once those were off, I sanded the handle smooth with 150 and 220 grit sandpaper, then stained the bleached out handle with walnut stain to give it a nicer color. I finished with two coats of shellac and two coats of lacquer.
Then it was on to the saw plate. The first order of business was to remove the kinks, which I did with a finishing hammer and a smooth white oak "anvil". Then I spent about an hour sanding with a foam-backed sanding blocks. I used mineral spirits as a lubricant and cleaned it often to check my progress. I started with 150 grit, then progressed to 220 once I was satisfied that all the rust was gone. Some stubborn stuff remains in the pitting, and there it will remain. The last step was to clean and dry the sawplate completely, then a coat of paste wax to protect it from future rust.
Then it was onto the filing. This this saw was 7 PPI, I used a 6" slim taper file. The saw was badly out of joint, and I lost track of the number of times that I jointed it. I shaped the teeth at 15° of rake and no fleam at first. When I finally got the toothline somewhat approaching straight, I begain to file some fleam in the teeth as well. I used the standard 25° of fleam. Finally, I set the teeth and eagerly re-assembled the handle:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_4899.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_4900.JPG)
The handle cleaned up pretty well after a good sanding. It has an odd shape because the front edge is meant to be used as a makeshift square. I made sure to plane the front edge precisely so that it's actually square!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_4901.JPG)
The bloody screws were a pain in the arsenic to get back together. The threads got deformed when I removed them from the plate, and I had to file them all with a needle file to get them to engage the nuts.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_4902.JPG)
The PPI stamp is the only visible mark on the whole saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_4903.JPG)
I was able to smith the saw fairly straight. I did this before jointing, and since the saw was so badly out of joint, it was difficult to get the toothline perfectly straight. I think I will leave it as it until it is ready to sharpen again, because right now I don't want to mess up the set. It cuts quite nicely and you can't really tell that it isn't straight by the way it cuts.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_4905.JPG)
And here are the teeth. Not perfect, but better than the last saw that I sharpened. And the proof is in the pudding. The 7 PPI are a little grabby to start, but I'm able to crosscut a pine 2x12 very quickly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/IMG_4907.JPG)
The best part of this restoration job? I posted this to another forum that is mostly about woodworking handtools, and within minutes I got a response from a member who informed me that my saw is a Wheeler, Madden, and Clemson "Hard to Beat" combination saw. So the mystery is finally solved! I have a nice "new" panel saw, and I finally know its identity 8)
split sawnuts,that's a good trivia question. Something new to me. That was a good find and an even better save.
Well done, Very well done. Your project put a smile on my face, I love to see old things brought back to a new beginning. :)
I don't know much about antique woodworking tools but it's always nice to see an old warhorse restored. Good on ya for giving the old saw new life.
What a great save. What kind of wood was the handle?
Good save, Dodgy!
Nice job on your restoration, just wondering if any one has commented or maybe I just overlooked it but your saw looks like what was called a "London Twelve" with the three split-nuts, some expert may show up with some nice input on your newly restored handsaw.
Nice Work
When you saye you had to "joint" the saw.. What is it you are doing to it.... :P
Nice job, I have a few saws here that need be touched with a file too, I have a friend that does it, I must go see him and be taught how its done.
Marcel
I believe that means flat file along the tips of the teeth so the tips are all in a straight (or nearly straight) line.
Then file each tooth to just remove the 'land' that the flat file leaves. Then all the teeth should be the same length.
Similar method used on circular blades, (I rotate the backwards against a stone) as repeated hand sharpening without jointing will leave some tooth tips longer and some shorter over time.
Especially important on the old one and two man saws that have cutting teeth and rakers. The cutting teeth should be longer than the rakers to get good curly saw chips removed.
Jointing first is a good practice when sharpening a whole set of dado blades so they are all the same diameter after sharpening.
I get that, I have a saw here that I got from an old fellar some years ago that had been sharpened by him many times.... never was jointed, :D That saw must have a dip of nearly 1/2" There could be a land barrier there... :D :D
Usually being in a hurry, filing was to just sharpen the teeth that were dull, and thus it caused the dip in the handsaws.
When Dodgy said
QuoteThe saw was badly out of joint, and I lost track of the number of times that I jointed it. I shaped the teeth at 15° of rake and no fleam at first. When I finally got the toothline somewhat approaching straight, I begain to file some fleam in the teeth as well.
I gathered that his also had a good dip and he didn't take it all out.
Here is a .pdf on sharpening. I found it interesting read.
http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/Saw%20Sharpening.pdf
That's a nice restore job Dodgy. Most fellas might just walk on bye and not see the potential in that old saw. Amazing that you could find out who made it. :)
Kudos to you for saving that saw.
Thanks beenthere, that was an interesting read :P
Quote from: WDH on March 11, 2013, 09:32:26 PM
What a great save. What kind of wood was the handle?
This handle is beech, as were most saw handles prior to the 1950s. The "premium" saws commonly had apple or even mahogany handles. I have two apple-handled saws: a Disston D8 from the 1910's and an Atkins tenon saw from the 1930's. I also have a mahogany-handled Disston compass saw from the early 1900's. The rest of my saws all have beech handles.
Quote from: beenthere on March 12, 2013, 01:07:59 AM
When Dodgy said
QuoteThe saw was badly out of joint, and I lost track of the number of times that I jointed it. I shaped the teeth at 15° of rake and no fleam at first. When I finally got the toothline somewhat approaching straight, I begain to file some fleam in the teeth as well.
I gathered that his also had a good dip and he didn't take it all out.
Actually, I did take all of the dip out. I had to joint the rear teeth nearly down to the bottom of the gullets 4 or 5 times to get the toothline straight. As I was approaching my final jointing, when all of the teeth were at the same height, I stopped filing the teeth straight across and began to file them at an angle (ie, with fleam). I did two jointing passes, filing teeth with fleam after each pass. At that point, every tooth was at the same height. I figured as much work as I had done, it would be a shame to leave any dip in the toothline. I spent about 2 hours or maybe a little more filing the teeth, but now that the teeth are in proper shape, it will be a simple matter to maintain it that way. Maybe 20 minutes per sharpening.
Glad to hear it. 8)
And that must be a joy to use to saw a piece of wood.
Wow, just when you think you know a lot about woodworking tools! "Fleam" and "split sawnuts" are words I definitely never heard before, and I never knew the techniques required to file a saw.
I have started to use a hand saw a little more often, for those single cuts where it takes too long to get the circular saw out. Mine is probably in need of a good sharpening.
Somewhere I think I read a guy could cut through a pine 2x4 is 4 or 5 strokes with an aggressive, sharp saw?? Is that accurate? I haven't gotten anywhere close to that :D
Tis true tyb
There was a day when there were no power tools to make cross-cuts. Electric saws were coming in around in the 50's for those who could afford to have them. The carpenter I worked for when 16 couldn't, but the house building crew up the road had them.
Dodgy,
Thought you might enjoy seeing a small split nut 22" long.
Jim
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31755/Old_split_nut_hand_saw_003_28Custom29.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31755/Old_split_nut_hand_saw_002_28Custom29.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31755/Old_split_nut_hand_saw_004_28Custom29.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31755/Old_split_nut_hand_saw_005_28Custom29.jpg)
Tyb it is true and it was just 4 strokes in the wood. The first stroke jumps across your thumb nail the next four strokes fly thru the wood so you can go get the bandages for your thumb. ;D ;D ;D DanG that hurts!!!
Dodgy,
Next time that you come down, I want you to show me how to sharpen a handsaw.
I've got an old hand saw around here someplace that has been misplaced by someone for years. Either that or it walked off. The handle was abused though. I figured someone tossed it on the ground or floor once too often. ::) But I also have a newer Pax handsaw, well a 20 year old one. They've been making them since late 18th C.
Quote from: WDH on March 16, 2013, 07:56:42 AM
Dodgy,
Next time that you come down, I want you to show me how to sharpen a handsaw.
Danny, I will be happy to share what I know. I've only recently started filing them myself, but hopefully I will have more practice by the time I make it back your way.
Happycamper - That is a great old saw you have there. It appears to have been well-loved, because it's been filed almost to a knife point! Do you have a closer picture of the medallion? Is there any writing on it?
Real nice job!!!! I wish that saw could talk, what a story it would tell.
Great thread to read, Dodgy! :)
Any way you could do a quick overview of what kind of files I would need to sharpen a saw? And could I joint a saw on a long, flat steel surface with sandpaper, or would a long file be better?
Ty, I will dig up some of the references that I used to get me started and post them in this thread when I get a chance. You only need two files to sharpen a saw - a flat single cut file, about 8-10", and a triangular file. You will want to use a file for jointing. It's not hard at all to joint a saw with a file. Just use a straightedge or your eye to see where the teeth need taken down. Once you get it close, the file does the rest to make t straight.
The size of the triangular file that you need will depend on the size of the teeth. If you have multiple saws with different tooth counts (which you probably do), then you will need different files for each one. I believe I used a "slim taper" file on my 7 PPI saw. PPI (that is, points per inch) is measured by placing a rule at the tip of a tooth and counting the numbe of tips in the span of an inch. Getting good files is very important. Some stores sell junk. I use Nicholson files because I can get them ocally, but some folks order Grobets online, which are supposedly the creme-de-la-creme. I haven't tried them.
You will also need a saw vise (which you can make- I'll post pictures of mine) and a saw set, which you can get on eBay for anywhere from $5 to $50, depending on how particular you are. I got mine in a bid toolbox that I bought it an estate sale and it works fine. A Stanley 42x is the holy grail of saw sets. If I ever see one for a good price (less than $20) I'm going to get one.
More information to come. A lot of ink can be spilled about saw sharpening, but it's really not that hard once you get down to it.
You can get a new saw set for $25 at Lee Valley, they have one for fine set and course set. item # 60k02.02
I've got a couple of saw sets ,I think Diston .I've never used them nor filed a hand saw ever .Exception being an old pruning saw and a two man cross cut years ago .
I've got a Millers Falls miter saw that probabley dates back to 1920 or earlier that needs some attention. It must have been used for years without the depth guides being set .All the set is out of it and the teeth are not sharp .Other than that the the miter assembley is nearly perfect .
A guy gets kind of used to tilting arbor table saws ,radial arm saws and compound miter saws and forgets about some of the fine old hand tools that built the great old homes of the Victorian age .
Frank Klaus has a video on hand tools. he took a new saw, put it between two boards, and hammered the set out of the blade, then he took a screwdriver and put the set in the saw by twisting the handle on every other tooth. He then sharpened the saw.
His saw definately cut better than any of mine in his video!
So long story short, he used a flat bladed screwdriver to set the teeth
Have you noticed that the handles on many old handsaws are too small for comfortable use?
People had smaller hands then?? I haven't heard that, but it would make sense.
Quote from: Jasperfield on March 17, 2013, 09:38:32 PM
Have you noticed that the handles on many old handsaws are too small for comfortable use?
You're holding the saw wrong. You're trying to put four fingers through a grip that was designed for three fingers. The proper grip is to extend the index finger straight - pointed towards the end of the saw - and put the other three fingers through the grip. Once you get used to this grip, you'll find it difficult to saw any other way.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on March 17, 2013, 08:22:31 PM
Frank Klaus has a video on hand tools. he took a new saw, put it between two boards, and hammered the set out of the blade, then he took a screwdriver and put the set in the saw by twisting the handle on every other tooth. He then sharpened the saw.
His saw definately cut better than any of mine in his video!
So long story short, he used a flat bladed screwdriver to set the teeth
That's cool. Klaus is clearly a virtuoso craftsman, but I wouldn't recommend that anybody set their saws with a screwdriver. The finest sawmakers actually use hammers to set them, but again, that requires more skill than most of us need. A sawset is cheap and produces repeatable results.
Here (http://www.vintagesaws.com/sitemap.html) is a great reference for hand saws. There is an excellent tutorial on sharpening as well as a wealth of other information. If you have an old Disston saw and would like to know more about it, then this (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/) would be a great place to look. All sorts of information about telling the age of your saw, its model, and whether or not it's a good user.
Below is a picture of my saw vise - it's just seven pieces of white oak, screwed together. I use two holdfasts to clamp it to my workbench. The handscrews are what I'm currently using to clamp the jaws together, but I'll be replacing them with bolts and wingnuts. It's 28" long, so I can file a full-size saw without moving it. Most vintage saw vises are only 12-16" long.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/Saw_vise.JPG)
And this is the saw set I've been using. It reads "OVB - Our Very Best" on top. I'm not sure who the manufacturer is, but it works pretty well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/Small_Sawset.JPG)
I found 6 old saws looking around the barn. One is a 26" Disston from 1896-1917 according to the medallion, the other is a 26" from sometime after 1917 (haven't removed the rust to see if the etch is visible yet). The rest were a couple old "Warenteed Superior" saws, 26" and 24". And a couple no names, 26" and 18".
This is the oldest Disston (no split sawnuts, 7PPI):
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17472/close_up.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17472/whole.jpg)
The blade is pretty straight, and the rust looks like mostly surface rust, so I might make a new handle and restore it in the future.
That's a D8, Ty. It's a very good saw and looks like it will clean up nicely. The handle is actually salvageable. If you want, you can send the handle to me, and I'll fix it back up and send it back- no charge. Those D8 handles are very tough to replicate due to the shape of the slot, so it's best to save the old handles whenever possible.
Thanks Justin for the links, good reading and much info about the old saws. :P
Hey Dodgy,nice job restoring that old saw. Cool that you were able to put it back into service and identify it! Collecting and restoring old woodworking tools can be addicting,plus its fun to use a tool that is over 100 years old! Every time I find a saw at the flea market for a buck or two ,my wife says "you really need another saw?" :D I have been able to bless some of my friends who are into woodworking with some restored saws and chisels .You gotta love those old tools! thanks for sharing.
Dodgy,another website with great info on handsaws is www.wkfinetools.com .They have some great articles on sharpening and restoration. You might already know about it, but I just wanted to pass it along.
That's a great website, otter. I've been there before but not in a while. :)
Out of curiosity since this thread arose I got down the old Millers Falls /Disston miter saw .
It's a Langdon style size 2 1/2 whatever that means .Last patent 1909 .Cast steel .
I straight edged it and the good news is it's dead on straight .Just needs some set work and a little file work to bring it back so it doesn't hang in the cut .
Of course it has the angles on a turn thing for the saw but another thing I found I don't fully understand .It has holes/windows in both fences with large turn screws and slides that go through the windows .I assume it's to set some odd ball angle the normal compound is not notched for ? I'm a power tool man I really know little of nothing about this old stuff .
I don't have much experience with miter boxes, but I did find a link with some information about you miter box here (http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-borTools/MillersFalls/inPress/1904-AcmeMiterBox/1904-AcmeMiterBox.asp).
From what I understand, the Langdons are supposed to be good miter boxes! I want to get one to play around with some day.
I worked on another saw this weekend. This one was not in nearly as bad of shape as the last, but it still needed quite a bit of work. It's a 26" Disston D8, 8 PPI crosscut saw that dates to 1896-1917. I picked it up at an estate sale last year for 50 cents. Though the handle was in rough shape and the blade was coated in rust, there didn't appear to be any pitting, the blade was arrow-straight, and thankfully the teeth (unlike the last saw) were very well-shaped, with a lightly breasted toothline. The D8 is in front, with a 28" Disston No. 7 behind it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/Disston_Comparison.JPG)
The sawplate cleaned up without any surprises. It's still darkly stained from the rust, but there was no pitting. I gave the top horn an apple patch and attempted to stain it to match the rest of the handle with limited success. It looks very nice from the right side, but there was a light streak on the left side that wouldn't accept much stain. It sticks out like a sore thumb, but whadaya gonna do? It'll still work fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/D8_Left_side.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/Horn_Repair_Left.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/Horn_Repair_Right.JPG)
I filed the saw to the original specifications – 25° of fleam and 15° of rake. For those that are interested, the order of the saw filing operations were:
1) Joint the teeth a flat file held in a block of wood to keep it at 90°
2) File every other tooth so the 'flat' from jointing is about halfway gone. I use a file guide set to the proper specifications (I just got this one (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=70465&cat=1,43072,43086) last Friday, and it worked magnificently. Previously, I used homemade wooden guide blocks)
3) Reset the guide for the opposite teeth, and file the teeth until the flats disappear
4) Lightly stone the teeth on the side to remove the bur from filing
5) Set the all of the teeth with a sawset
6) Make one light jointing pass to make a tiny flat on each tooth
7) File the teeth as before *just* removing the flat on the final pass
Obviously there are a lot of subtleties to saw filing beyond that, but that's a rough guide of my process. Some folks do things differently, but that is working well for me. This saw bites aggressively into the wood and cuts so smoothly, it's an absolute pleasure to use! I've never had a saw that cuts so well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/Nice_Teeth.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/Arrow_Straight.JPG)
Your becoming a regular saw doctor Dodgy. ;D
Dodgy, have you ever tried any other way of removing rust from the saw plate? I've cleaned alot of cast iron ( I know, not the same metal) using electrolysis. There is also 50/50 mix of vinegar, and water that will do a good job. Just wondering if there is a preferred method, or are there many acceptable methods.
I really enjoy restoring certain pieces, and just want to make sure I do it right.
Slab Slicer - you're right, there are a lot of ways to remove rust, and no method is right for all situations. For handsaws, I prefer to sand the rust off, because rust inevitably leaves a rough, pitted surface. Even if it you can't see it, you can feel it. You want your sawplate to be as smooth as possible to minimize the friction created, so the sanding kills two birds with one stone - it removes the rust and it polishes the plate.
You could definitely use the vinegar or electrolysis to remove the red rust as well as the dark oxidation that, and then polish with sandpaper, and you would probably end up with a shinier sawplate. I doubt you would get any additional performance, though. Maybe I'll give it a try some day. You would want to be careful not to leave it in the vinegar too long, though, because the acid will attack the iron itself in addition to the iron oxide, and you could end up with even more pitting than you started with.
I use vinegar all the time for cleaning up planes, chisels, etc. I never have used electrolysis, but it certainly seems like a great method for some cases!
Nice job again putting that saw back into service. They do cut nicely when they have a fresh resharp!
Well, you fellas are probably sick of my old handsaw posts by now, but it occurred to me that I've mostly shown before/after pictures of some of the restoration work I have done. I worked on another saw last week and took some pictures as I went, so hopefully if anyone out these is interested in bringing their own saws back to life, this post will give you a little play-by-play.
The saw that I started out with is a Disston No. 7 rip saw from 1896-1917. It's 28" long with 6 TPI. For $5, I couldn't pass it up, because my other 28" rip saw is 4.5 PPI and this one will make a nice companion. It is badly rusted all over, and the handle is in rough shape. It will take some work revive it, but it will be worth it – the plate is arrow-straight.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/1_-_As_Found.JPG)
The handle is the roughest I have worked on so far. The upper horn is missing and the whole lower part of the handle is cracked in two. The tape is all that is holding it together.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/2_-Taped_Handle.JPG)
I owe the previous owner a debt of gratitude for taping the broken piece on. Usually breaks in this part are glued on (poorly) or nailed on. Both of these are hard to fix. Since this break is clean, all I need to do is carefully glue it back on with a little epoxy colored with wood dust.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/3_-Tape_Removed.JPG)
I'll clean up the squeeze-out after it hardens a bit, to keep from smearing it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/4_-_Epoxy_Repair.JPG)
Once the bottom part has cured a bit, I turn my attention to the upper horn. I start by flattening the spot where the break occurred with a wide chisel. Then I take a new piece of beech and match the grain as best I can, and epoxy it in place. Since I will be working this patch pretty well with a knife and rasps, I let it cure overnight.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/5_-_Upper_Horn_Patch.JPG)
With the epoxy cured, I plane and cut down the oversized beech patch, then mark out the shape of the new horn using a similar handle as my pattern. I happened to have an identical No. 7 28" rip saw handle lying around that I used as my pattern.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/6_-_Marking_Patch.JPG)
I cut out the shape on the bandsaw and begin shaping it with a chip knife.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/7_-_Carving_Horn.JPG)
Once I get it close, I use rasps, files, and a thin scraper to get the shape just right. You can do all the work with rasps and files, but I prefer using the knife to a rasp.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/8_-_Rasping_Horn.JPG)
Next, I smooth out the whole handle with sandpaper. I think I started around 120 and worked my way up to 180. The grits you use will depend on what shape the handle is in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/9_-_Sanding_Tote.JPG)
To even out the color between the old beech and the new, I stain the whole thing with walnut stain (for apple handles, I use mahogany). You can see that the patch is still a bit lighter than the old wood, so after it dried, I went back and carefully sanded just the patch with 150 grit, so it would accept more stain. Then I stained just the patch. This helped even out the color considerably.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/10_-_Staining_Handle.JPG)
I finished off with a couple coats of lacquer after letting the stain dry for a couple of days. And this is what she looks like:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/11_-_Finished_Handle.JPG)
It looks old, but not abused. Just the way I like it!
how many strokes to cut through a 1x12 pine board?
Beautiful restoration.
Nice job! You must have quite the collection by now :D. Keep up the good work!
Quote from: Dan_Shade on April 22, 2013, 06:33:57 PM
how many strokes to cut through a 1x12 pine board?
I'm not sure - it's a heck of a saw, though. I used it extensively on the chest in the other thread that I just started, and I feel like I was able to go about 3/4" per stroke in 1" white pine. I'll have to count next time I'm in the shop and let you know.
Quote from: purple otter on April 22, 2013, 08:37:07 PM
Nice job! You must have quite the collection by now :D. Keep up the good work!
Yep, once I got this one fixed up, I pretty much decided to quit actively searching for saws, but that's not to say that I won't pick up another if I see one at a good price. I have all the handsaws that I need fixed up and ready to go, but I still have some backsaws that need some love. I have a 16" tenon saw and a 14" sash saw that are next on the pecking order. I worked on a 10" carcase saw right before this one (a Disston No. 4), and it works fabulously. It has 13 PPI and I filed it at 10° of rake and 15° of fleam. It feels great to get these saws that have been hanging around my shop in unusable condition, finally back in working order!
I took some pictures of the process I used to clean up and sharpen the big rip saw, but I figured I would post that separately from the post able the handle. Maybe tomorrow.
Quote from: WDH on April 22, 2013, 08:28:52 PM
Beautiful restoration.
Thanks, Danny. I hope you have a saw ready for me next time I come back. I will have you putting your SawStop up for sale. Handsaws have flash-detecting technology that is significantly cheaper, anyway ;D ;D ;D
17 pictures on one page!?!?! You keep doing that and I'll have to get something faster than this dial up thing. ;D :D The wait is worth it. I don't think I have any old handsaws in the old farm house. My 14 year old grandson loves going in there. If there's one in there,he'll find it. His Grand Father had a lot of fun in there about 30 years ago too.
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on April 22, 2013, 09:37:27 PM
Yep, once I got this one fixed up, I pretty much decided to quit actively searching for saws, but that's not to say that I won't pick up another if I see one at a good price. I have all the handsaws that I need fixed up and ready to go, but I still have some backsaws that need some love.
I hope you remember that you have one of my saws that you promised to bring back to life! ;D
I remember :)
Quote from: thecfarm on April 22, 2013, 10:40:57 PM
17 pictures on one page!?!?! You keep doing that and I'll have to get something faster than this dial up thing. ;D :D The wait is worth it. I don't think I have any old handsaws in the old farm house. My 14 year old grandson loves going in there. If there's one in there,he'll find it. His Grand Father had a lot of fun in there about 30 years ago too.
Sorry, farm. A picture is worth 1000 words, and its quicker to snap than it is to type ;D
Okay, as promised yesterday, here are some pictures of the restoration of the saw plate.
This is sighting down its length - arrow straight. It's hard to find old saws in this condition, and a kink or wave is a lot harder to fix than rust.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/12_-_Arrow_Straight.JPG)
I didn't take pictures of the sanding and scraping process, but it's pretty straightforward. I sharpened a cheap, 2" wide chisel and used that to scrape off the majority of the rust. Make sure you have the saw on a FLAT surface when you do this - you don't want to dig in! You can use a razor blade, and it helps to round over the corner so they don't dig in. You don't need to be making any more scratches that you'll have to sand out later!
Once I scrape off as much as I can, I use 150-grit sandpaper with a cork-backed sanding block to smooth out the plate and sand out the rest. I pour on some turpentine to lubricate the blade. It will gum up with rust pretty quickly, and you'll have to wash it off and start fresh. After a few minutes, you should have off most of the rust.
The next step is one that I would reserve only for the rustiest saws. This one had some light pitting, and there's no way that your sanding and scraping can get into those nooks and crannies. If you don't get rid of that rust, it will eventually start up again, slowly corroding your saw. So to neutralize that rust, I turn to my good friend, phosphoric acid. Phosphoric acid will convert the insidious iron oxide into harmless iron phosphate. The iron phosphate creates a tough barrier that will actually protect the pits from moisture and helps prevent rust from getting started back.
You can find it at your Ace True Value by the name of "Ospho". They sell it near the paint and finishing supplies to prep metal for painting. I start by cleaning the turpentine and loose rust off the plate with water and dish washing detergent. Then I coat the whole thing generously with phosphoric acid using a foam brush and hang it up to dry for several hours.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/13_-_Phosphoric_Acid.JPG)
When it's dry, the plate will be coated with a dull grey film. I finish sanding that off with 220-grit. Some people will go up to 400 or even 600 grit, but with a saw plate that is stained and pitted, that's a waste of time. When you're done sanding, you're ready to sharpen.
First step in sharpening is jointing. This is when you run a single-cut file down the length of the teeth to bring them all down to the same height. You don't want some teeth high and some low - the cut will be rough and some teeth won't be doing any work at all. I use a block of wood with a kerf in it to hole the file at 90*. The blade has a slight "breast" (that is, a curve), and I follow that line as I joint to maintain the curve. You want the curve to be convex – if your blade has a concave curve, that's not breasting, it's bad filing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/14_-_Jointing_Blade.JPG)
You can see the flats on top of the teeth when I'm done with the jointing – some are big and some are small – an indication that the teeth were out of joint to start off with. You stop when you can just see a flat on every tooth.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/15_-_Flats_on_Teeth.JPG)
Now I'm ready to begin filing. I set my filing guide to 5* of rake and 0* of fleam. Most big rip saws have 8* of rake. That's a good angle for more aggressive teeth (like 4-5 PPI), but for these smaller teeth, (6 PPI), I want to make the teeth a bit more aggressive by reducing the rake. More rake = less aggressive. Rip saw are almost always filed with 0* of fleam. Fleam makes crosscut saws cut cleaner and faster, but it slows down rip saws significantly. I file all the teeth from the same side. Some people file every other tooth, then flip the saw around, but I do not. Either way works.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/16_-_Filing_Teeth.JPG)
I file the teeth down evenly, until all of the flats are *just* gone. To keep the teeth evenly spaced, watch the depth of the gullets as you file. When you see a gullet that it a bit shallower then the others, you know that it needs some work. Look at the teeth on either side of the gullet, and put pressure according to which tooth has the bigger flat. If both flats look the same, you'll just file with downward pressure and no side-to-side pressure.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/17_-_All_Filed.JPG)
Now it's time to "set" the teeth. That is, bend them side-to-side so that the kerf that the saw cuts is a bit wider than the saw itself. This allows the saw to move freely through the cut, and it also allows you to correct if you wander off of your line while sawing. Here I'm using a Stanley 42, but most any saw set will do – it takes some practice to know how to set it properly, though.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/18_-_Setting_Teeth.JPG)
When the teeth are set, I make one last light jointing pass, the dial in every tooth just right so the flat has just disappeared. Then I very lightly run a dull file down the sides of the teeth to remove the bur from filing and even out the set. After that, I'm all done, and the saw is ready to try out!
Old 26" Disston D8's and 28" Disston No. 7s have identical handles. Only the location of the saw nuts are different. So this rip saw makes a handsome pair with the D8 that I fixed up earlier this month!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/19_-_Handsome_Pair.JPG)
Happy sawing!
Thanks Justin, this is a very interesting thread. :P
Hey Dodgy, I noticed you are using the Veritas saw file guide. I just read an article about it. How do you like it? Would you recomend it? The price seems decent.
Otter, the Veritas guide is a well-engineered and well-executed little gadget that I wouldn't be without. I filed a few saws before I got it using homemade wooden guides, but the consistency in the shape of my teeth went way up once I started using this guide. I highly recommend it.