My TK 2000 started breaking bands. After loosing the third band in less than four hours, I knew I had a serious problem. A little investigation revealed this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28750/IMG_0796.JPG)
The drive wheel was "walking" off the bearing and had sheared off the washers that retain the bearing in the wheel hub. I called TK and it was clear they have seen this problem before since they now have bearing keeper rings on the mills they are now building. The tech told me that if the bearing was still a snug fit, I could put some lock-tite on it and replace the washers with Grade 8 and I should be OK. If the bearing was loose in the wheel I would either need to replace the wheel or have a machine shop bore out the wheel and install a sleeve.
Unfortunately, when I disassembled the the wheel assembly I found a pile of metal filings between the two wheels and the band wheel bearing was a loose fit :(. The bearing in the drive wheel was still tight. As I was in the middle of a multi-day mobile sawing job, I needed to get back up and running fast. I wrapped the bearing in thinly stretched electrical tape and pounded the bearing back in. Most of the tape stayed in place and the bearing was tight in the wheel. I then put everything back together using grade 8 hardware and sawed for almost two days before the bands started breaking again. The bearing looks OK and I don't detect any wiggle when I pull on the wheel.
I would like to understand what caused the the wheel to walk off the bearing with so much force that it could shear six washers off. Why does this cause bands to break? Also, do you guys have any advise on alternate fixes for this and what I should expect to pay to have a sleeve installed?
Sorry, man, have to be there to see! can't even begin to help too many issues that can be the cause, focus on the fundamentals of pulley mounting, you will figure this one out, david
I would highly recommend taking it to a machine shop and getting it shimmed and pressed together, but this might help for now if you have no other choice.
This may not be applicable whatsoever, but what I have done on 4-wheeler hubs, which are aluminum, is to use a pop can cut to the width of the bearing race or seat. For a mill you want to make sure whatever you use for a shim sits the entire width and circumference of the bearing or you will have either wobble or a slight jumping action, which will wear out more parts down the line.
While I'm certainly no expert on these portable mills I'd have to guess what causes it is the tension pulling on the wheels and then every time it gets wavy it suddenly is pulling more. I would bet that the side of the wheel that the teeth ride is wider than the other.
Basically like driving on a washboard road, it's constantly hammering on it forcing it to wobble and the washers to break.
Just my .02 cents.
Allan
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on May 18, 2013, 11:12:11 AM
Also, do you guys have any advise on alternate fixes for this?
Paul, i hate to see anyone with mill problems. It will drive you crazy and I hope you get it fixed soon and get back to milling.
But on the lighter side and in regards to your question above......do you really want my answer? ;D
(I couldn't resist it and your welcome to pay me back. :))
I appreciate your sympathy David and yes I do want your answer, so long as it doesn't contain any of the following:
Woodmizer, Wood-Mizer, WM, LT-10 thru 70, my mill, David's mill, orange, juice, cantilever, or any word shaded orange.
Fire away grizzly. :D
Ga, sorry to hear of your issue,
check the pulley at the bolt between 2 & 3 o'clock,
photo you posted looks like it has a hairline crack there.
Bearing retainer plate/washer from TK sounds like a good idea.
perhaps they will send you some?
Locktite suggestion sounds temporary at best,
I would guess the bearing, pulley clearance is too large from the factory?
I suggest what ever you do to one side
do to the other.
best
DGD
Paul, after looking at that I went out in the rain to check my 2000. It has what I guess is the new larger washer they are talking about. Looks pretty simple to install if they will send you one. I was thinking your machine was newer than my TK. Ricky
Ricky- My mill is a 2010 model. I think they added those bearing retainer rings (one on each side of the wheel) shortly after mine was built. You would think that it would be a recall type item given the damage that can result to the bandwheel. I think the price I was quoted for the "kit" was around $32 shipped for one wheel. I can buy the washers and make my own for around $8 per wheel. Doesn't fix my wallowed out wheel hub though. >:(
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on May 18, 2013, 03:30:19 PM
I appreciate your sympathy, David. And yes, I do want your answer so long as it doesn't contain any of the following:
Woodmizer, Wood-Mizer, WM, LT-10 thru 70, my mill, David's mill, orange, juice, cantilever, or any word shaded orange.
Fire away grizzly. :D
Sell it and upgrade to a machine painted a shade between red and yellow!
Quote from: delvis on May 18, 2013, 05:49:24 PM
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on May 18, 2013, 03:30:19 PM
I appreciate your sympathy, David. And yes, I do want your answer so long as it doesn't contain any of the following:
Woodmizer, Wood-Mizer, WM, LT-10 thru 70, my mill, David's mill, orange, juice, cantilever, or any word shaded orange.
Fire away grizzly. :D
Really, sell your WM every time you have a problem. Steve
Sell it and upgrade to a machine painted a shade between red and yellow!
It's good we post our problems. I went out and checked my machine and see if it has the retainer ring. It doesn't, so I'll be doing something.
There are Loctite products made to glue a loose bearing in the hub. If I remember right they have a certain tolerance range. You will have to see if you can measure the gap first. I'm not sure I would have a high hope of success, as much stress as these wheels take.
If a bearing was a loose fit on a spindle some will knurl the spindle to take up the slack. I don't know if this can be done in a hub. Call a machine shop and lets us know. A shade tree mechanic would dimple the inside of the hub with a center punch. Hopefully with some kind of uniform method.
If anybody can post a picture of the retainer ring it would be appreciated.
Here it is Larry:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC03241.JPG)
This is a pic from another TK owner on the FF, not mine.
Based on the pic, I think this is the the size washer they're using:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-flat-washers/=mt4m9z
There is one on both sides of each wheel.
Back when I first got my B20 the idle side bearing got loose in the bore, it cost around $90 to get steel sleeves put in both sides and hasn't been aparts since then. Steve
Thanks Paul.
Is there just one ring per side? No ring on the back side of the hub right.
I was told there are two per wheel. I'm not sure, but I think there may be a clearance issue between the ring on the back side and the square tube that holds the spindle. Might need a washer or two on the spindle before the wheel goes on.
woodkiller recently replaced his drive-side wheel. He should know. I'll contact him.
I agree with dgdrls it appears that there is a crack near the 3 o clock bolt, if it is cracked that would cause a lot of problems with a large dia wheel.
Quote from: dgdrls on May 18, 2013, 03:56:45 PM
check the pulley at the bolt between 2 & 3 o'clock,
photo you posted looks like it has a hairline crack there.
best
DGD
Good eye, DGD. :) It does look like a crack but it is just a casting defect. Believe me, I've looked at it very closely.
I just replaced the idle side bearings on my orange mill, so it happens to the best of them ;)
The big black washer that Paul shows in his last picture looks just like my mill except my machine is not that clean. It looks like there are 4 of them on the pully side. One on the front and back of each wheel.
Those are bearing retainers. They're normally used where there's no shoulder or "C" ring to hold the bearing in place. I'm surprised that TK didn't use them from the getgo.
Hi Ga Mtn Man:
My advice would be to call the manufacturer and have them send you a new wheel assembly at no charge, despite the fact that it appears your mill is technically out of warranty.
When you buy a mill from an amazing company that stands behind its products like few others, this is the kind of service you should expect when something major like this goes wrong within a (relatively) short time frame.
But then, what do I know?
:)
You can call me personally at 800-942-4406.
Will
Will- I will give that option some careful consideration and get back with you. ;D
I spoke with Will Johnson (president of TimberKing) and he is personally seeing to it that an entire new drive-side wheel assembly (not just the bandwheel) is being shipped to me at no charge. 8) Will told me that even though my mill is out of warranty he realizes I should not be having this sort of an issue and TK wants to make it right. FYI, he also said that they have re-designed the wheel hub since my mill was built to prevent this problem from occurring.
I can't ask for better service than that from a company. Thanks Will! smiley_clapping
Quote from: Will_Johnson on May 20, 2013, 09:22:29 AMdespite the fact that it appears your mill is technically out of warranty.....When you buy a mill from an amazing company that stands behind its products like few others, this is the kind of service you should expect when something major like this goes wrong within a (relatively) short time frame.
Sometimes quality extends beyond a company's product. It also includes it's personnel. smiley_thumbsup
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on May 20, 2013, 11:17:58 AM
I spoke with Will Johnson (president of TimberKing) and he is personally seeing to it that an entire new drive-side wheel assembly (not just the bandwheel) is being shipped to me at no charge. 8) Will told me that even though my mill is out of warranty he realizes I should not be having this sort of an issue and TK wants to make it right. FYI, he also said that they have re-designed the wheel hub since my mill was built to prevent this problem from occurring.
I can't ask for better service than that from a company. Thanks Will! smiley_clapping
He just guaranteed a loyal customer in you, and impressed a whole lot of other people reading this. For good reason! Good for TK!!! Service don't get much better than that. 8)
I got my mill used and TK has been great with me also, they sent me a few things to help without charge!! Anyone looking a mill should look at TK real hard. Ricky
GMM,its a moot point now as your getting a new wheel,If the pulley bore was prick punched evenly all around and ether a good epoxy[like cat] or locktite stud&bearing mount was spread around chances are you'd get much more service out of it as its just compression load on the compound.Frank C.
I guess you don't need that measurement now. 8) 8) Good customer service would be a HUGE understatement!
Stick with Timberking. I had an "Orange Sawmill" once and finally parked it in the fence row. My wife made a flower bed out of it.
oklalogdog
Let's see a pic of that WM as a flower bed. If ya have one.
While it was a pain for Ga Mtn Man to deal with this problem it started an interesting technical discussion. I feel like I learned something, thanks for posting it. It is very fortunate that TK's Will Johnson saw the thread and decided to put himself out there. smiley_thumbsup
"Let's see a pic of that WM as a flower bed. If ya have one."
BeenThere - So you've got one you need to make a flower bed out of too huh?
Friday I received the new wheel assembly along with a retainer ring and new B56 belt for the idle side. Got it installed over the weekend with no problems:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28750/IMG_0800.JPG)
Did a small 6-hour saw job yesterday and the TK 2000 was running like a new mill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28750/IMG_0797.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28750/IMG_0798.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28750/IMG_0799.JPG)
And no broken blades! 8)
My thanks to Will Johnson and everyone at TimberKing for going the extra mile to help me out with this issue.
Wow, that's good service! Congratulations ;)
Good for you and TK. :)
Orange you glad your milling again. Good job Paul and TK too! smiley_thumbsup
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on May 29, 2013, 03:14:36 PM
Orange you glad your milling again. Good job Paul and TK too! smiley_thumbsup
Been racking my brain for half an hour trying to come up with a clever word play on "coral red". I got nothin' >:(. Can someone help me out here?
:D I did, but decided to keep it for myself for when I need it. :) Choose your battles wisely and only fight those that you expect to win.
Quote from: Magicman on May 29, 2013, 09:20:20 PM
:D I did, but decided to keep it for myself for when I need it. :) Choose your battles wisely and only fight those that you expect to win.
Get him Magic.....sic'em boy. running-doggy
Oh no, I am holding him off of you so that you can run. :D
bat_smailey
I'm a little late to this discussion, but of course I'm going to interject with my opinion. First off, being the "whole-heartedy enthused" owner of a TK mill, I'm am very happy to hear how Will Johnson stepped up and did the right thing. They have also been very fair to me in all my dealings with them.
Mechanically, for a slip-in bearing, the most accepted method of manufacturing a bore that a bearing will seat in is to design a shoulder for one side of the bearings outer race to seat against and design a groove on the other side of the bearing to accept a C-clip and prevent the bearing from moving. The bearing bore tolerance is usually about + or - .0004". An optional "press-fit" design would have the bearing bore sized under the size of the outer race of the bearing, up to .001" for bearings up to about 3-4", more for larger bearings. A C-clip would be optional in that scenario, but if large design loads were expected, could also be used for extra security.
In 30 years of manfacturing design and production I have yet to see a bearing held in place on a through-bore with plates on either side as shown in some of the pictures in this thread. I suppose there isn't anything wrong with it. It's cheap and quick and assuming there is plenty of room for the extra thickness I guess it works fine. Usually, space is at a premium and this design would not be satisfactory.
And I am just really curious if the "Orange" mill would use a method like this! ;)
Having worked on lots of machines over the years I think the engineers were asleep half of the time, a lot of room for improvement on most. If anyone finds the perfect mill with no faults let me know. Steve
I was checking wheel belts this morning when I thought I noticed the drive side bearing spinning in the wheel when I turned it. I took one nut off and looked at the backside of the retaining washer. Sure enough I saw a track where the bearing spun.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF0252.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1524085872)
Removed the other 5 nuts and pulled the wheel off. It was still snug, but a slip fit. I think it should be a press fit. Locktite 609 bearing retainer is something I always have on hand as it has saved my butt a couple of times. Cleaned up the bearing race and wheel hub with lacquer thinner. Wire brushed the spacer rings. Reassembled everything with a liberal application of Locktite.
I dropped by the local nut and bolt place to pick up some new washers and nylocs. They had high grade alloy machinery washers almost twice as thick as the OEM washers. I figured they would work just as well as the new TK retaining ring. 8 cents each is cheap insurance.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF0253.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1524085894)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF0255.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1524085914)
This repair won't improve anything as I sawed last week with perfect results. Hard to improve on perfection. It should keep me sawing.....I hate surprise breakdowns.
Thanks to Paul for the original post as this is something I probably never would have noticed without his warning.
Glad I could finally pay you back for showing me the ropes way back then. That was a fun trip move_it...six years ago! :o
Its what the forum is about. People helping people, and sometimes goats. :D