Cut some tall sweet gum yesterday. I only have 2 of the 3 videos uploaded. This timber was really tall and was VERY wind swept. Thanks for watching! popcorn_smiley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L72Ox5Rb1NM&feature=c4-overview&list=UU_NjqCPS3PCA_PGz4NCZuLA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV21xMEETgQ&list=UU_NjqCPS3PCA_PGz4NCZuLA
Into the 2nd video (2min.51sec.), the stump shows very little hinge. Improper hinge with such a shallow (and too deep) scarf...lucky that tree didn't smack you upside the head! The moment the tree passed the 20degree vertical fall line, crown mass sets in. Lack of proper hinge wood causes hinge to snap prematurely, crown mass spins the tree around and the butt end of the tree wacks the faller like a giant baseball bat.
Thanks! I will try and work on that. ;)
Looked to me like, with the rot involved, and the lean of the tree as well as no appreciable top, that felling that tree was pretty well calculated.
If a large canopy and lower limbs, then John has a point. And I do like some hinge for control and anti-kickback off the stump.
Thanks beenthere! Much appreciated.
The "said" tree was actually sound, the stump was so odd shaped and weigthed funny...I dang near cut it off at my waist to get above that bulbus stump. Sweet gum pulls fiber something fierce. Being as that most of our sweet gum is in hollows, I have to fall alot of them uphill or out of creeks...well I'm never in a good escape position in some of the deep creek banks...I have tried leaving a hinge and have seen fiber pull over 8" out of the log, mainly comes right out of the heart.
I found that "IF" I must leave a hinge due to possible skipping back over the stump...a 2" "box hinge" is where it's at. I try to "jump" all sweet gum if at all possible.
I watched the video again, the violent flail of the butt was due to the creek bottom...it looked close to me, but was no where near, it jumped forward around 4 ft, and I had backed away.
Looks like a lot of oak regeneration under the sweetgum.
Yeah, creeks and banks...slopes...they can make getting away hard. I was felling with a friend of mine a few weeks ago. Large oak located on a 30 degree slope. We put the tree down in the road. My friend started cutting on the lower branched, but I told him the tree is going to roll over and to be careful. Well, the tree did roll over. My friend tried to run but a branch wacked him over the head! People think that when the tree is on the ground all danger has passed. :o
CCC4,
I'm not too experienced in this, but I'm getting better all the time. From what I see, with your very narrow wedge cut, when the tree starts to fall, the top of the wedge cut contacts the bottom and tends to want to lift the trunk off the stump. With that method the hinge wood the tree has no option but to pull out where the hinge is. I would suspect that if you used a wider wedge cut, say 45° minimum (I shoot for 60°) the additional room before the upper part of the wedge cut hits the lower allows the fall to progress further before contact. The hinge wood tends to break at the stump (or at least crease) as the tree falls before pulling. I rarely cut anything over 24" and I shoot for a 1-2" hinge depending on how the tree starts to fall.
Just a little food for thought... try it and see!
Are you going to mill those trees?
Quote from: WDH on October 02, 2013, 09:07:37 PM
Looks like a lot of oak regeneration under the sweetgum.
Yes Sir, I noticed that also, along with the lack of sweet gum regen. I have a therory for the oaks, that creek gets out of it's banks and that set of sweet gum is in the bend of the creek. I would assume that high water floated the acorns up and around the sweet gum.
Hey WDH, are there male and female sweet gum trees? In that entire stand of sweet gum I noticed VERY few sweet gum seeds...could that stand have been all male??
How is your acorn crop this year? Ours seems excellent, large acorns and alot of hickory nuts also. I also have come across really nice big persimmons...reckon we are in for a hard Winter? I'm going to be prepared cause I think we are due for one. Thanks for viewing my videos!
Quote from: John Vander on October 02, 2013, 09:28:24 PM
Yeah, creeks and banks...slopes...they can make getting away hard. I was felling with a friend of mine a few weeks ago. Large oak located on a 30 degree slope. We put the tree down in the road. My friend started cutting on the lower branched, but I told him the tree is going to roll over and to be careful. Well, the tree did roll over. My friend tried to run but a branch wacked him over the head! People think that when the tree is on the ground all danger has passed. :o
Yeh, your preaching to the choir there...I got my jaw broke about 8 weeks ago from something after falling a magnum White oak...I was knocked out and never really figured out what hit me.
Quote from: grweldon on October 03, 2013, 12:14:08 PM
CCC4,
I'm not too experienced in this, but I'm getting better all the time. From what I see, with your very narrow wedge cut, when the tree starts to fall, the top of the wedge cut contacts the bottom and tends to want to lift the trunk off the stump. With that method the hinge wood the tree has no option but to pull out where the hinge is. I would suspect that if you used a wider wedge cut, say 45° minimum (I shoot for 60°) the additional room before the upper part of the wedge cut hits the lower allows the fall to progress further before contact. The hinge wood tends to break at the stump (or at least crease) as the tree falls before pulling. I rarely cut anything over 24" and I shoot for a 1-2" hinge depending on how the tree starts to fall.
Just a little food for thought... try it and see!
Are you going to mill those trees?
Thank you Sir for viewing. I try and always jump my timber. Grade logs shouldn't have any pull out what so ever. With our relatively short timber, I don't want to loose anything off the butt. With that being said I want my hinge to be thin and break rather than pull. I know this is considered a more dangerous way to log but honestly I would be out of a job ifn I pull alot of fiber.
As far as the end process of the timber, I supply (3) hardwood tie mills, (3) pine yards and (1) scrag mill. My background for the last 19 years has been in and around sawmills and logging. I was the head sawyer for 9 years at a ERC mill where I sawed on a full auto circle mill and I have about 900 hours on a bandsaw. My sawing career is over thank God... nothing will burn you out faster than cramming logs through a mill at a rate of 4 to 5 a minute for (9) years.
Thanks
Good vids, nice work. Stump jumping is great when you don't have a lot of canopy above you and can stay at the stump. We plunge most of our hard maple harts out and just leave two corner post to eliminate fiber pull and still get a controlled fall, may be something you want to try on the ones going up hill to give you a little more time to get out of dodge. If were producing mill bought wood we are graded on fiber pull and stump height so we wouldn't get away with the humboldts. Again nice work, I bet you get a lot of wood on the ground at the end of the day.
CCC,
No, sweetgum does not have male and female trees like ash, mulberry, and persimmon. Each tree produces both male and female flowers, just not at the same time so that it cannot self-pollinate.
Our acorn crop here this year will be sparse. I read in the newspaper today where the bears in the Mountains of North Carolina are roaming further down in the valleys because of a poor acorn crop. They are coming more in contact with people as they search for food.
QuoteIf were producing mill bought wood we are graded on fiber pull and stump weight so we wouldn't get away with the humboldts.
That line leads me to have to ask why not a humboldt, as I understand the humboldt leaves all of the butt log intact, and the notch is out of the stump wood only. And if the notch is open enough, then the tree can drop with no fiber pull out of the butt log.
What am I missing?
Don't understand what the weight of the stump left in the woods figures in here either.
I suspect that he meant stump "height".
That makes sense for the stump. ;)
Now about the humboldt. ??
In my procurement days, we always considered acceptable stump height to be 6" or less, but that was in pine. Not sure that is reasonable in hardwood.
I think he is talking about stump height. Ok, well I am self taught pretty much, in the books (which I have not read) they act like you need to throw your face in at darn near knee height and put this huge massive angled face in, thus reuiring a high stump. Well, there is always the narrow faced over kerfed method, I can generally keep and average of 4" on about all hardwoods. The bigger hardwoods, depending on flair of the stump, I sometimes get to almost 6".
Sets of double cut oak logs will make you stay low. I try to keep everything low, just depends on what kind of terrain.
My background of ERC is what brought on the "Low Humbolt"...hey did I just "coin" a cut?? Anyway, in red cedar, you don't ever want to show up at a mill with conventional face cut...I've seen loads turned at the gate. Problem is for the cedar liner people...they MUST have an 8'3 log to get (2) 4' pieces, a conventional can take the lumber down to 8' flat er 8'1. See what I'm saying.
Oh, I am also pretty bad to go above flaw... but depending what the flaw is, I may re-cut the stump. I am guilty of leaving some high co-dominate stumps...if in an area really remote er something.
like said before. consider plunging your face cut and just leaving tabs on the outside of your hinge. I have experience on it with on oak, ash, and maple. Wouldnt it work on the sweetgum? Pretty much eliminates the fiber pull and gets your keester away from the stump. Also doesnt take much time to do.
just want you to go home safe.
lol yeah I meant height :D, to long of a day I guess.
When plunging the face there is no need for a knee high stump or huge angled face. Works fine at any height and with a narrow face.
I see what you are saying about the conventional face, a load of logs sent home would not be a good thing. That's some really tight trim tolerances.
CCC4,
Like I said, I'm really new to all this. I guess I was assuming quite a bit since I had no clue about your background or experience. Obviously you are extremely experienced and I could learn a lot from you. You just mentioned "heart pull" and being an engineer, I analyzed the mechanics and concluded that the method you use could result in the heart pull that you mentioned. I really didn't have a clue that all the factors had been taken into consideration.
Would you please take to time to explain a few things that I don't understand?
I've heard the term "Stump Jumping" but I suppose I don't actually know what it means.
I'm also not clear at all about why a load of Cedar would be turned away because of the way it was cut.
Thanks brother... didn't mean to offend...
sweetgum here acts weird, it won't chair but if ya don't cut it off it will break up or pull bad. I jump gum too most the time, beech as well as it can act funny to. pine n poplar I use open face directional method, face bore leaners like Keen said. oak, we have so many different kinds it just depends on subspieces and where it growing. this being said, stump jumpin is something non pros shouldn't try. ccc4 and myself have many years in the woods full time. vids are for entertainment purposes only.
Quote from: CCC4 on October 03, 2013, 10:37:03 PM
Anyway, in red cedar, you don't ever want to show up at a mill with conventional face cut...I've seen loads turned at the gate. Problem is for the cedar liner people...they MUST have an 8'3 log to get (2) 4' pieces, a conventional can take the lumber down to 8' flat er 8'1. See what I'm saying.
A conventional face cut will leave some of the slanted cut still on the butt log. Notice he said they MUST have an 8'3 log. A conventional cut would not work in that case. Unless you used it and then cut if off and then marked the logs out. Which that would be a waste of wood. Or this is how I am seeing it.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on October 04, 2013, 08:33:20 AM
sweetgum here acts weird, it won't chair but if ya don't cut it off it will break up or pull bad. I jump gum too most the time, beech as well as it can act funny to. pine n poplar I use open face directional method, face bore leaners like Keen said. oak, we have so many different kinds it just depends on subspieces and where it growing. this being said, stump jumpin is something non pros shouldn't try. ccc4 and myself have many years in the woods full time. vids are for entertainment purposes only.
And stump jumpin is ... what?
Quote from: grweldon on October 04, 2013, 08:12:38 AM
CCC4,
Like I said, I'm really new to all this. I guess I was assuming quite a bit since I had no clue about your background or experience. Obviously you are extremely experienced and I could learn a lot from you. You just mentioned "heart pull" and being an engineer, I analyzed the mechanics and concluded that the method you use could result in the heart pull that you mentioned. I really didn't have a clue that all the factors had been taken into consideration.
Would you please take to time to explain a few things that I don't understand?
I've heard the term "Stump Jumping" but I suppose I don't actually know what it means.
I'm also not clear at all about why a load of Cedar would be turned away because of the way it was cut.
Thanks brother... didn't mean to offend...
Sir , there is no offense taken in any way. Ok, i'm just here for a short bit so I will try and explain what I'm doing. Basically with the narrow face and the "over kerf" I try and get back into the heart wood and stop somewhere around 60%..now this is where reading your tree comes in, you have to know how far you can go in before pinching your bar, plus you have to know that your tree isn't leaned or it will come on over and chair backwards...and that's not good.
By using this method I do two things, I can get through my back cut as the tree starts going over...instead of leaving a 40% / 60% and trying to burn through the back 60%. (does that make sense) Secondly the majority of the heart wood is already compromised by my face...add the two together and you can eliminate any fiber and reduce you possibility of barber chair.
This method is considered pretty dangerous and people don't really like to talk about it a whole lot, I would assume it has to do with reading the tree...you could get one over on ya pretty easy if the tree was misread. It's kind of funny, I have been scolded pretty bad from PNW and NE guys for jumping timber...however some of the videos I have run across from some top cutters in the PNW area use the same method.
Basically to sum it up, I try and ONLY leave a hinge in certain conditions for certain reasons. I am uploading a real nice pine video from this morning, it shows open faces and Humbolt's and one pretty bad back leaner that I wedged over to keep my lay. It will be up later this evening.
thecfarm is spot on with why the cedar gets turned away with conventional faces...one side of the log can be 8'4 but the face side may be 8' flat, and that is not good for buyers who HAVE to get (2) full pieces out of the cant.
I didn't mean to be gloating about my experience, I just felt like telling what all I have done for the last half of my life...and that I have zero plans on ever sawing anything again ;D
But really Sir, I take zero offense to your post. I don't consider myself a "Pro" by any means, but slayer is right, "stump jumping" can be dangerous and nobody wants to hear of someone getting hurt by trying to emmulate what he or she see's on a video.
Oh and on the pine video I have being uploaded, the back leaners...you will see me make cuts in the right corner...it didn't work but I will tell you why I did it after you see the video...ifn you want to know.
I coulda forgot that stump jumpin is a bad word in some circles. it's not to me, just it is another method of cutting down a tree.
Hey slayer! ;D I gotta go finish my track, I will hollar at ya tonight man. Hope ya had a good safe day man! Slayer you're gonna like the pine vid! GOOD pine and I got the 660 lined out! Whoot! Later
Pine video from this morning. Nothing special. 660 used in this video. Thanks for watching!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfGHlN3b6yU&feature=c4-overview&list=UU_NjqCPS3PCA_PGz4NCZuLA
Enjoyed going along with you and watching your pines fall.
So much, that I even thought I could smell the pine sawdust. smiley_thumbsup
Thanks for posting.
That video cam is pretty impressive.
By the way,how is the wood coming out of the woods?
holy that's a fast saw compared to anything ive used
For avoiding splits on cedars and pines, wing-cuts combined with a fish cut works well. In some cases plunge cuts work with wedges too. Yeah, wood turned away at the mill is not nice!
I sometimes cut away some of the bark on thick barked trees as to prepare the hinge more accurately. Including bark in the hinge means less sound wood across the face of the scarf.