Anyone ever mill for crane mats? Customer is talking about 12x12's and 6x8's and wants a discounted rate on my BF price due to me actually have to saw less. Mixed species loads & he doesn't want any of the side lumber or slabs and I have to load the truck with the sawn timbers (I think). I think his mat buyer is jerking him on price personally - seems like a lot of timber for what they're paying (about .55/bf). The only thing I could think of is those of you that saw ties.. If the customer is providing the logs for the ties what do you get to saw them?
Jobs like that you should base on an hourly rate. You can then convert this back to a bd/ft or per piece price for charging purposes. Work out how long it's going to take to do the job, you know how much you need to earn per hour / day, and price it from there.
You don't need to charge the client by the hour, they need not even know what your hourly rate is. You are just using that to set the bd/ft price.
Yes you will have less saw cuts to make, but handling the sawn 12 x 12s will probably slow things down? How much is what you need to work out. Maybe you will come up with a lower bd/ft rate, but your income for the day should be the same, so you aren't loosing out.
Also, I'd initially agree to do one load as a test job. Review the time taken after it's done, and make sure everyone is happy with the deal. If you have to re-negotiate, so be it. At that point you will have real numbers to price the future jobs on.
Ian
I agree with Ian. Work out what makes sense to you financially. I'm sure he is pressuring you on price to be able to make his money. It's unclear from your post if he supplying the logs or you have to do that?
Customer is providing and delivering the logs.
I would start with a figure that I usually saw out in a day and convert that to the money charged.
Then I would make sure that I got at least the same $$ for the mat job.
Then, if you have to handle and load the cants on a truck or trailer, you need to get paid for your support equipment use!
Just because you have less actual sawing, doesn't mean you aren't working extra because of the handling involved.
Handling the timbers make up the difference of not having to saw as much, but you know what your time is worth. It sounds like he might be "shopping" you. Do not fall for his bait.
We get 30-40% more production when sawing ties vs lumber but we are set up to handle them. Our LT70 drags them back easily and we also have air kickers and rollers to handle them once they are off the mill.
Yes, the question is how many could you saw an hour? If you put out 6 12"x12"x20' an hour, I think that would be 1440bf off the top of my head. For me, I'd love to saw some of those even at .20 per bf I think I could come out pretty good. It all comes down to log handling equipment for the big heavy beasts.
Do you have a market for the side pieces? That would help.
I am pretty sure that someone on this board who had both a circular mill and a lt70 said that milling a tie on the circlar mill took about a minute, and like five minutes on the lt70, if that can help in any way?
I cant remember who it was though, maybye someone else does? ???
crane mats these days are typically for the oil industry,read pipelines... they are not scrimping by on anything they do... I tend to charge accordingly.
just a couple months back I had a fella come by wanting some pricing on larger oak timbers... I shot him a price about .50 cents higher than normal bf wise... he called right back with the command"start sawing", we stay fairly busy every since.
If the customer is providing the logs, I am guessing that you will be supplied with the smallest possible logs without a lot of prospect for much side lumber. I like the idea of cutting a couple dozen and seeing how it goes-- but only if you have the equipment to handle them. The trucker won't want to wait around while you load them a few at a time with a front end loader. How many pieces of each size are needed? Could this be an on-going proposition?
Doesn't take much of a machine to handle individual 20' 12x12s, loading them on a trailer Iswhere you are going to run into the need for a fairly goodsize forklift
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28954/20120719_081926.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28954/20120914_164123.jpg)
I cut 40' 12X12s all the time. Your production can go up but you will have a increase in equipment cost to handle the logs and timbers. With the good comes the bad. These large logs and timbers are hard on equipment.
Quote from: Kansas on November 18, 2013, 11:13:08 AM
Do you have a market for the side pieces? That would help.
I thought about going min 6" wide pieces and selling it at as farm lumber for .50/bf & slabs as firewood for $25-30/face cord. I currently do not have anyone waiting in the wings to buy it immediately.
Quote from: dboyt on November 18, 2013, 02:40:00 PM
If the customer is providing the logs, I am guessing that you will be supplied with the smallest possible logs without a lot of prospect for much side lumber. I like the idea of cutting a couple dozen and seeing how it goes-- but only if you have the equipment to handle them. The trucker won't want to wait around while you load them a few at a time with a front end loader. How many pieces of each size are needed? Could this be an on-going proposition?
It could be ongoing if it goes well... haha. I have a 38hp kubota to handle them. I will need to get forks or a grapple bucket or both.
I just looked at where you are located. The big mill I cut for has just bought a mill in your area. They have the contacts and sales people to handle the side lumber and timbers from the logs. It will be difficult to compete with what they have going on. How long of logs are you looking at cutting?
He said between 12-16'. What mill did they buy?
not to hijack this thread but what the heck is anyone doing with a 40' 12x12? that is a mighty large timber and takes a decent log to make too!
Sounds like 12x12x40 timbers would go for "Timber Frame Construction".
But wow, that's quite a timber!
I think customsawyer once got four 12"x12"x40' timbers out of one log. :o Isn't there a pic of that somewhere?
I've cut a few long timbers. 10"x12", 7"x15", 10"x16", all over 47' long. Working up a quote on some 45' timbers right now. All for timber framing.
Quote from: mikeb1079 on November 18, 2013, 09:25:00 PM
not to hijack this thread but what the heck is anyone doing with a 40' 12x12? that is a mighty large timber and takes a decent log to make too!
Like the others have said, large timber frames.
This is member SCSmith cutting out a 12" x 16" x 42' beam. He has track extensions on the mill, and the optional log handling package - sold separately. ( a big crane :D )
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13296/Face_2_v_3.JPG)
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,61982.0.html (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,61982.0.html)
Most of the big timbers I cut are for crane mats. I do some for timber framing but only a small percentage.
I am not sure which mill they bought and am not sure exactly where it is just know it is up in the great white North.
Quote from: customsawyer on November 19, 2013, 02:29:01 AM
Most of the big timbers I cut are for crane mats. I do some for timber framing but only a small percentage.
I am not sure which mill they bought and am not sure exactly where it is just know it is up in the great white North.
Copy, there is pretty big circle mill a few miles from here that is always struggling to stay running due to low log supply and I was wondering if it was that one.
The mill they bought up that way is not a large mill. I heard it had a crew of 9 men. The main reason they got the mill is that they bought the mat contract the mill was cutting.
When I say large, everything is relative. I meant in compared to my LT35, haha.
QuoteMost of the big timbers I cut are for crane mats. I do some for timber framing but only a small percentage.
thanks jake, that's why i was wondering. i had a hunch that timber framing wasn't your main market.
Here is the pic of 4 12X12X40' out of one log.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11861/random_007.jpg)
Yes I know if you are cutting grade lumber splitting the pith like this is the worst thing you can do. Since these are used for heavy equipment to walk on top of I haven't had any excavators complain yet. :D
Quote from: thechknhwk on November 18, 2013, 12:26:17 AM
Anyone ever mill for crane mats? Customer is talking about 12x12's and 6x8's and wants a discounted rate on my BF price due to me actually have to saw less. Mixed species loads & he doesn't want any of the side lumber or slabs and I have to load the truck with the sawn timbers (I think). I think his mat buyer is jerking him on price personally - seems like a lot of timber for what they're paying (about .55/bf). The only thing I could think of is those of you that saw ties.. If the customer is providing the logs for the ties what do you get to saw them?
In my area, south Arkansas and Mississippi, since the "big boom" a few years ago, when the pipelines started going in, mat prices have become very competitive (cheap)lol. You have two mat companies that actually have a contract to supply the mats for the pipelines, and here the mats aren't sold, they're leased to the pipe lines. Some of the small contract mills may go for months without many orders for mats.
If you are very far down the chain from the main buyer the orders may not stay steady, or they don't in this area. I'd look at how long it would take and what equipment would be needed, and charge according to that. I'd treat it as if the first load of logs could be the last load of logs, and not a guaranteed ten year contract. So to speak... ;)
I'll have little investment if this goes down. The only thing I'll have to get are pallet forks and will want a graple bucket to deal with the slabs. Both things I plan on getting in the future anyways, but this may enable me to get them quicker. Once those are paid for I'll be operating in the black so to speak.