I'm in the process of finding a homestead and I came across a few options. Some are fully wooded and I would need the land cleared for my house and pastures. What would the cost be for clearing 10 acres of trees? Would a logger pay for the trees (if valuable) or would I have to pay the logger?
The trees appear to be mostly hardwoods and there is alread a driveway cut into the trees from an older home on the property. My goal would be to get a logger willing purchase the trees so I can use that towards a down payment (already spoke to a bank about doing this and they were okay with it). Thoughts and ideas are appreciated. I don't know anything about the logging/land clearing industry. Thanks!
Likely (highly likely !! ) that the value of the trees as wood is less than the cost of clearing the land.
A forester could be hired to cruise the timber for a board foot estimate and then get estimates of timber value.
Then get estimates from land clearing contractors for removal of everything where they may recover some of their expenses by cutting out and selling some of the logs.
Iam totaly against clearing forest land hold out and buy pasture/farm ground. We are losing to much forest to developers in this country already.
really???? :P
can't wait to see respons
Quote from: Autocar on December 12, 2013, 04:35:42 PM
Iam totaly against clearing forest land hold out and buy pasture/farm ground. We are losing to much forest to developers in this country already.
i agree with bill. it will cost a lot to stump 10ac and get rid of them
I just paid $9000. To clear 3 ac of woodland and leveled it with a buldozer. They used a trachoe D6 dozer and a skidsteer for 7 days and i kept all the logs. New site for my new barn. 60x104
As someone who has a homesteading bone also, I'd ask what you mean by homesteading? if your mean clear it for a Kentucky style horse farm pasture, it could be very expensive. I deal with some right of way crews and clearing and stump grinding a ROW can run up to 15 K / acre ( extrapolated out as these are linear) or more if very large trees. Thats paying crews by the hour though.
My question would be as a homesteader who looks to use the land, get the natural items from it that you can, and keep it somewhat forested and natural, is why would it all need to be cleared completely? we have a bit of woods and it would be unthinkable to me to clearcut it, but thats me. Does pasture really have to be clearcut to the sky? I've seen lots of cow pasture with woods/large trees, especially in the east center/ midwest where you are(and I am)
could you look at having the understory cleared with brushogging, remove non-logging trees for firewood, and selectively cut for harvest. Can still pasture some cows, goats are great for keeping the brush down and no"homestead is complete without some, clear for your house and buildings, ect.
every situation is different and everybody's idea of homesteading is different, but I also read a few homestead forums, back to earth/wise use type of sites, and there could be a lot of uses for those trees and woodlot besides timber. most of the homesteaders ( in that definition) are looking to use everything possible to it's best use. are there walnut trees ( sell the walnuts) a lot of Maple ( make syrup), anywhere is good goat pasture except maybe a swamp, but some breeds probably like that too. Chickens love to scratch around a woodlot. Firewood is premium prices if you buy it, but the tops from your harvest heat a lot. Our place was logged just before we got it, but I have more tops to cut than I can do before it will rot, and I use it to heat my house and boil sap. Lots can be done without an expensive clear cut and monoculture grass planting. If you're doing crops thats different, and probably a lot cheaper to buy cleared land.
Honestly not trying to pick at the OP and probably didn't answer his question, but as a wannabe homesteader I always look at the most use for what is there, and being a cheapskate always looking for the wisest cost. I like the thoughts in his post signature
Autocar has a very good point. Fragmentation is destroying wooded habitat and decreasing the ability of woodlots to be sustainable. I would suggest you buy a played out farm, restore the pasture and plant the rest to trees.
Well, opinions are like you know what and since you asked here is mine. First, if you intend to have pasture that can be productive and profitable, then do not grub out your stumps with an excavator or dozer, you will lose the soil organic matter content, which is off the charts in hardwoods like you describe and the #1 factor for live healthy soil, secondly you will destroy the soil profile in that the top soils will become mixed in with deeper soils and the microbes, earth worms, carbon, etc will all suffer as a result, not to mention the soil compaction which will happen resulting in reduced water and O2 permeation. Completely open pastures are also not the best answer, the soil is exposed to extremes of heat, wind, etc, animals prefer shade when its hot, rainy, windy, etc, so trees do have a very important place in a grazing set up. What I have done in the past, and still do on our own land, is find a balance between wooded and open and mimic the Savannah we had when I was out west, today its called Siva-pasture by all the fancy types, but basically we grazed our cattle and horses in the woods. The key is to get the canopy open enough so that grass will grow to its maximum potential, and the trees will remain healthy. Somewhere in the 20% - 40% canopy enclosure works well, depending on tree species, size and soil type you are talking about 20' - 60' spacing between trees. This allows the sun to cast a shadow across parts of the soil during the day, and the same areas to get full sun for part of the day. A variety of grass selection (both cool season and warm season) along with legumes (clover, alfalfa, etc - going to need nitrogen to feed the microbes to break down the extra organic matter) will be critical to establishing your pasture, don't try to create a mono culture or just use what ever the local feed store says to use, do some research - please run if somebody tells you to plant Ketucky 31 fescue. You will also need to budget in some lime, that will open a whole nother can of worms, but around 500 lbs per acre / year for 4 years will create amazing results, that level is not an attempt to change the ph of the soil based on a soil test result - you will need a second mortgage if you try to do that, rather you are just trying to create an environment where the soil microbes can flourish and help your plants to do the same. Lastly as far as removing the stumps - hire out a forestry mulcher, you can find dedicated machines, 3 pt hitch models, and excavator attached versions. It is hard to say the cost per acre because that will depend on the number of stumps you have and how big they are, species, but if you do a selective approach like this I would think $2000 per acre would be a safe planning number. The mulcher will leave all the mulch scattered across the soil surface - that is a good thing as this is more organic matter which will decompose into the soil. One other thing to consider in all of this is just how much rock do you have in your soil? I have seen parts of PA that don't know what a stone is and others that literally plant corn in gravel. Good luck, include photos if you move ahead with it.
I am with Southside logger, that sounds like good implementation. Landclearing can be very expensive.
David l
If it's forest now, what is the soil like? As mentioned, it might be clean ground, or it could be a distant cousin of the thecfarm's land and all rock. :D I haven't kept up on land clearing around here, but cleared and stumped is a lot of money. Better to look for open ground is my thinking.
I sure hope it's not related. :o I have rocks sticking up out of the ground,but I start digging around here..... ::) Dig out one stump,and I have 2-3 good size rocks and ALOT of smaller rocks to get rid of. And I might find a bigger one that I can't even move just a few inches below the ground.That is why I don't dig my stumps out.
history books and stuff...
Way I've seen it done on the cheap is log a little, clear a little, repeat until done.
While I'm generally against developing... its your land.
Any way, the primary method of clearing land before dozers and tnt was to leave the stumps and just work around them until you could find time to dig it out manually or let it rot. These days however a guy could pick up an inexpensive dozer for around 5-10k while its not a huge beasty it will eventually pluck the stumps out, especially coupled with a stump breaker, a large steel wedge thing hanging off the rear of the dozer...
So you could log it and leave the stumps, if they are anything like around here most of them will be gone or mostly gone within 5-10 years. If your dead set on having flat ground to turn the plow or whatever on, log it buy a little dozer and have some fun. Diesel in the grand scheme of things is pretty cheap, and dozers are always fun.
If your set on planting something and going full tilt homesteader, the pioneers would plant corn and beans in between the stumps, and rake whatever hay they could where they could, (although green corn stalks make a Hel of a silage for feeding critters with). When they had time and money they would work in whatever stumps that where in the way or convenient, eventually they cleared a whole bunch of land out this way.
I've got 11 acres in near north Ont and I'd guess about 3 acres or so is cleared. The entire lot was harvested previously but the forest has come back pretty well. Mostly softwood with a scattering of maples (some sugar I plant to tap). Will be thinning it out over time but am also setting it up to eventually have a large garden as it has good southern exposure. Almost all the rocks have been removed and left behind the shed thankfully ;)
Long story short, I agree with the others not to go apocalyptic and clear all 10 acres. Best to keep a woodlot going for heating and general bonfire time. Makes for a nicer property imo.
Far cheaper to get ahold of an old hobby farm than it is the start over. But land clearing often involves selling the wood for revenue for clearing. But you'd get maybe a quarter of the cost of clearing if your lucky. Around here we don't dump wood in dumps to burn, it's most all salable to mills as pulp if nothing else. Much of our wood is not high value.
You are right there swampdonkey. We are lucky to have ways of getting rid of wood,even if it's not the best wood. Any land clearing done around here the wood is not just pushed into a burn pile.
If you are a true homesteader, allow Mother Nature to work for you! I've watched our own timber land change, oak trees dying, standing a few years and topple over, stump and all. The Native Americans, early pioneers, girdled the trees, speeding up the process, then, clearing and burning their plots for camps and cabins, pastures, farms.
But if you do have a timber sale, you know you've got some tough stumps to deal with. Have the cutters cut the stumps as low as possible, try to keep that big heavy equipment only for pushing out a pond, or build a dam for a lake.
I can not imagine paying good money for timbered land with the intention of clearing most of it off . The early homesteaders cleared large plots of land because it was free or nearly so and the clearing and farming was part of the improvements .The forested land was far greater in those days than now .
Some times even required and this was long before heavy equipment was available to do wholesale land clearing .
It is quite another thing to clean up an old "homestead" that has been let go and grown over with sprouts,weeds and other undesiable growth .
Brian, I just saw the thread, the way it works best in this area is to sell the valuable timber first,take the money to the bank. What is left are the tops and less desirable tree,s. You then start having to pay to clear. That,s it in a nut shell!! In our area trucking is the killer of making money on logs because of the trip to a good paying mill is a hour or two away!Anytime you start talking clearing land you are talking money from your pocket. There are a few ways to get around this,but it evolves $. You could purchase a used machine and clear your own land at your leisure or you can cut a deal with a local and tell them all is free for the removal!This is possible,but it usually does not work! PM me and let me know what your specifics are and I would be glad to steer you in the best direction that works for you! Tim
Holy bahdunkadunk! Thanks for the responses everyone! I'll try to clarify some of the questions and issue brought up. First, the property in question is 331 Fairview Road, Glenmoore, PA. It is 33.5 acres of woods on a partially steep slope with very stoney loam soil. I might have cfarm's relatives down here! ;) There is a house already on the property that I would plan to fix up. My wife is not too keen on living in complete woods but is okay with living on a homestead/farm, hence the land clearing question. My intention is to develop a polyculture farm utilizing as much of the land properly as I can manage in the most sustainable manner possible.
"Why clear the land at all then? Why not just buy farmland already cleared?", you might ask. In Chester County, farmland is very valuable and thus expensive for me to get into. As an example, 5 acres of farmland/cleared land with a house is $350,000 while 33 acres of woods with a house is $450,000. Also, farmland that is more in line with my intentions is too far away from my current job in Philadelphia, as I am required to live within 50 miles of my office. We are still looking for other good properties.
I do agree with those that want to keep the land natural and I would strive to do that in my homestead. I am still learning on all that can be raised, grown, and cultivated in open land, partially wooded, or fully wooded lands. I would not want to grow or raise monoculture (one type of crop or livestock), as I feel that is detrimental to the land and against being a good land steward. I did not think of girdling trees to help in land clearing, might be something worth looking into.
Also, I agree and understand about too much development and land clearing occurring in the country today. My intention was to remove approximately 10 acres of trees to allow for more crop growth, not necessarily all in one big section. I do like the idea of removing a few trees in one spot (60' between each tree) to allow for the sun to reach the ground. And the idea of doing a little at a time is appealing, but might not be feasible in my situation. By the way who doesn't like a good bull dozer? ;)
As to my original posted question, I spoke with a Farm Credit rep and he had suggested getting an appraisal of the timber value from a forester and then seeing if a logging operation would be willing to bid on clearing the land. It was an idea to help with the $110,000 down payment required to acquire the land (Farm Credit requires a 75% LTV ratio on their loans). Now that I know that it will most likely cost me money to have the land cleared, I will probably not go that route.
I really appreciate all the comments, suggestions, opinions, and feedback provided. I will try to answer any new comments and questions as best I can. Thanks!
P.S. Tim, I was writing a response when you responded. I'll PM you later with some questions. Thanks!
As said you could cut the trees yourself and do the clearing too. On mine grown up pasture,my land clearing,there is a mixture of hard and soft wood. Nothing of any value,no size to it. I do try to leave any red aok for wild life. The maple stumps will rot in about 6-7-8 years,if I keep at the suckers that sprout out of the stumps. The white pine stumps seem not to rot,but I can dig them out very easy with the tractor in 10 years. Really all that I get is just the stump,it's not a big root ball. But if doing it this way ,you must keep at the mowing part. I have tried a bush hog,but the best thing I found is just a cheapy push lawn mower. Yes,it takes more time,but the better job I do mowing it,closer to the ground and around the stumps,the quicker the grass will come back. As soon as I open the area up the bushes just start to come in,FAST. The only chemical I do use is on the aspen. I cut a bowl in the stump and put rock salt and water in. The aspen will really send the shoots out,BAD. Clearing 10 acres is alot no matter what. I might get about a ½ acre a year. Did not do any this year. Kinda like the more I clear,the more I have to keep clear. After about 4-5 years I can let up on the mowing part. At first I need to really keep at it.
Hey Kilgrosh, I have enjoyed your posts . Is that the piece along Colts Foot Lane ? That might be an issue. Bet that 35/mph gets to be a pain. I would probably have a chat with Leamy Construction in behind you. Bet those lads would know some history on that land. Big concern when buying land is to be sure there is nothing in ground like buried fuel tanks etc that become yours when you buy. Just a thought. ;) Looks to be high ground without to many reparian zone issues. Pretty piece of real estate , just missing a water view. ;D
ah, my bad, I thought you were buying 10 acres and wanting to clear all of it. If you have 33, then clearing 10 wouldn't bother me too much. I like the idea of clearing enough to open up the canopy for the sun to come in. Hopefully the house won't require too much work to make it your own.
Also didn't know rural property was that expensive in PA ! I thought Ontario was dear lol.
fwiw, I've been reading Storey's Basic Country Skills (ISBN: 978-1-58017-202-8) quite a bit and it's been a great resource as we decide what to do with our 11 acres. Between the organic farmer down the road and friends who've got 27 acres, we have lots of experience to tap.
Good luck with your search and I hope you find the property that speaks to you !
I heard horror stories of the cost to clear land when I bought mine.
I tried to find around 10 or so acres of pasture near where I live for my girlfriend to keep her horses by the house and have a little hobby farm. The realtors all said to expect $10k an acre for cleared pasture land where I'm at. NO THANKS!
I bought a wooded and rocky 18 acres near my house and found an owner operator who had a D5 dozier. He worked reasonable but it was all cash. It took him 10 days at $600 a day to clear around 10 acres. He left me with 11 burn piles and it was sort of smooth. I took the biggest pine top out of one of the brush piles, hooked it behind the tractor, and drove around for what seemed like days to smooth it all out. We sowed our own grass and burned the brush piles ourselves. All told it cost around $15k to clear 10 acres AND fence in the entire 18 using high tensile electric wire. I used Bermuda grass with the recommended fertilizer from a soil test. Its been about a year and a half and I still have 3 large burn piles left. They are too large to work with my tractor so I hope this winter to have somebody come help with them and I'm done.
Find an honest owner operator with a dozier and pay by the hour. Every cost estimate I got by the job was way higher.
I'm kind of with A-car on this one .
During the late 70s to mid 80's thousands of 10-15 acre tracts of hardwood fell to the mighty D8 Caterpillars ,turned into farm land that really didn't need to be .A D-5 wouldn't have stood a chance on those oaks .
The taxes on farm land is only about 7 bucks an acre so why they felt it neccessary to doze down what took several life times to grow I'll never know but they did .
The only real "logging " I ever did was on a 5 acre plot of the nicest shag bark hickory I've ever seen .Nice 80 footers ,straight as a die and 35 feet to the first limb .We cut enough to supply half the country with axe handles and never did get it all cut before the big crawlers attacked it .
It was a shame but if we didn't get it it would go up in flames .
There's acres and acres of farms growing up all over the country. Take a drive through Island Falls, Maine and take your pick. People just walked off and left. There are even Amish there and I have not seen a thing they are growing, nothing. There's no living to be made off 10 acres of fields, not even close to a living. Not reliably year after year anyway. Anyway, not everywhere is land worth 1000's of $$ an acre all cleared. Those farms will grow about anything, unless your going to grow oranges and bananas. Generations have done it. But the big market centres are far away, so that kinda kills opportunities. I'd look hard and say to myself is the job what I need or do I want a hobby farm in an area where cost of living is way less. If you want the job and pay the big bucks for the land or the clearing that's one answer to the problem. In those areas where cleared land is high, I can imagine timbered land is very expensive to. All you can do is look into things and decide. Those of us outside of your area can make the decision and are mostly speculative suggestions. ;D
There's lots of southerners who moved to Maine, just as there are lots from Maine going south. Make your fortune at your job, then come up to Maine and play. :D In my area, most of the flat or rolling hardwood ground is now fields. The woods left on many farms is swamp and wet land or mountains and gullies. I mean up here, we don't need 10 % of the farms, we don't have the population to feed.
Yes its the property near Colts Foot Lane. If looking at Google Maps aerial view, look to the north of the power line cut and you will see a house in the woods. Thats it.
Thanks for the tips on clearing cfarm. I'll keep that in mind about the push mower.
Al, taxes on the land are $50 per acre if under Act 319 (Clean and Green Act).
Woodenboater, I already own Stoney's book. Its a good reference guide. I just finished The Self Sufficient Farmer and will probably read something by Salatin or Logsden next.
SwampDonkey, my wife already thinks where we live to be cold enough. She would want to move further south if possible. My current job pays well and has great benefits, plus there is a pension for me at age 48 (16 more years), so I can't leave just yet.
Quote from: kilgrosh on December 14, 2013, 05:38:42 PM
Yes its the property near Colts Foot Lane. If looking at Google Maps aerial view, look to the north of the power line cut and you will see a house in the woods. Thats it.
Thanks for the tips on clearing cfarm. I'll keep that in mind about the push mower.
Al, taxes on the land are $50 per acre if under Act 319 (Clean and Green Act).
Woodenboater, I already own Stoney's book. Its a good reference guide. I just finished The Self Sufficient Farmer and will probably read something by Salatin or Logsden next.
SwampDonkey, my wife already thinks where we live to be cold enough. She would want to move further south if possible. My current job pays well and has great benefits, plus there is a pension for me at age 48 (16 more years), so I can't leave just yet.
Careful with Salatin and Logsdon... they'll make you a believer...(I am...)
Anyway, its your land to do with as you please, once its paid for anyway. There are more acres of timber now then there was when the pilgrims showed up, so don't worry too much about cutting a few for yourself, theres a whole lot more out there.
As far as making a living off of 10 acres through farming, who's saying he wants to make a living, maybe he just wants to provide for himself? If thats the case a small family can easily support itself on just 5 acres. Toss in the other 23 acres of timber land and thats 23 cords of fire wood every year to supplement the pocket book and pay taxes. Theres more to this than just having a bunch of trees standing around soaking up water and sunlight.
If I had the chance to jump on something like this, you can bet your farms half of it would be cleared by the end of next year, probably sooner. By the following year moo cows would be busy pooping everywhere, making the soil better to support food crops, but that's just me.
And a D5 with a skilled operator (or a stubborn one) would do just fine pulling stumps, it may not do it fast but it will do it. I've seen and worked around ancient D-4's that regularly pulled 36" doug fir stumps without much trouble. However letting them rot would be better for the dirt, and cheaper too.
Well all I can say is Douglas fir must not be as tough as our hardwoods .I own a couple of old D-4's and they certainly are not stumpers .14,800 pounds and 35.68 drawbar HP doth not a stumper make . :D
Oh you can dig them out but you'd have a hole big enough to bury a pick up truck in the process and half a day doing it .I've seen D-8's beller and snort on a short cut 36" oak stump .
I have no idea what kind of oak,but I have played around with a few small red oak stumps. Them things are hard to get out of the ground. And they don't rot much either. I have a red oak at the lower end of the field,right next to the woods. Looks like that will be there for a while yet. I did get a white maple out of the ground. Was a good size tree too. I don't dig them too often. Too hard on my equipment,40 hp tractor are not made for digging stumps. Nor made for digging out rocks either. :D
I have pictures some place of the stumps of white oak left from a cut make in 1937 that are still hard as a rock .
Sugar maple will rot up in a few years oak will be there for a life time .
Some place on the net somebody in Washington state attacked a 7 foot Douglas fir stump dropped in 1919 .They couldn't budge it a bit with a D7 Cat.
The maple will rot quick if the stump and roots die. A sugar maple stump on a mature tree will die, whereas a red maple will stay alive with the old roots and sucker every which way to Kansas. Red oak stumps don't die either, they sucker as bad as red maple. That's part of why the stumps stick around longer. I can still find aspen stumps of large trees cut in 1984 on my lot. They created the new stand of aspen. The same root network, plus some, is alive and connected to all them new trees. ;D
Well aspen is a class all it's own kind of like a colony .
Because we all hail from different geographical portions of the globe we look upon this land clearing from different perspectives .
I've seen those slopes in Pa ,some of them you couldn't hold a mountain goat similar to portions of southern Ohio where they ran out of flat land so they stacked acres almost vertical .There's nothing you can do with other than grow trees .
Western Ohio,eastern Indiana is fairly flat rich farm land .Lots of it but maybe at best 15-20 percent still wooded .
As I had mentioned as allowing Mother Nature to do her work....scrap that...she does her thing anywhere, anytime. The diseased red oak that died soon toppled over, and the wind storms that seem so prevalent these days completely uprooted large white oaks of well over a hundred years age. Root balls over 10' diameter, wind thrown and laid out, totally awesome power. No D-8s could have put those trees down in seconds!
So we get to Washington state and others in the PNW .I've never been there but I've seen the slopes in pictures ,steep ,trees galore .It isn't a big deal to clear off a patch.I mean they clear cut timber and it grows right back . Hardwoods don't work that way .It might take 200 years to recover from a clear cut in the heart land .
So now tell me if midwestern farm land is so rare just why for years did they have gov set aside programs to pay farmers not to grow crops ? Why further are they paying crop subsidies .
We see a lot of that in parts of Maine, but these were marginal farmland areas. Grows good aspen, birch and white spruce, but too wet for taters. Not only that, but there are farms an lands that are flood plains. Good fertile land but very costly to maintain. Same attitude as building right back on the flood plain, and this after the third house went out with the flood waters. If someone else is paying for fixing, got nothing to loose.
But if I keep at an area that I have cleared,meaning keep the suckers off the stumps, and in 6-7-8 years the stumps are dead. But this is being very adamant on the stumps. Soon as any growth is there cut them off. I use to do it all with a weed wacker. But found a push lawn mower works better. The maple stumps I can get real easy with my tractor in 6-7-8 years. But the oak stumps in the same time frame are still hard to get out. I just cut them low to the ground and mow over them. White pine stumps don't rot either. The roots will rot and in about 10 years I can get them out. Kinda what I see for a stump is it,no tap roots,just the stumps. That stumps is just as hard as it was 10 years ago too. The sap wood maybe rotted but there is some nice looking wood in that stump. I have cut the stump off and split it and used it for fire wood. Black cherry that I have a few of. I am digging stumps out around the stone wall that have been there 30 years.
You probably have diffeant trees and some stumps might be there for many years.
Well say they shove off 5-10 acres of hardwoods,root out the stumps,root rake it ,pull a 10 ton offset disc over it .They've knocked the top soil off it and will likely plow up roots the next 10-15 years .What did they gain other than the high cost of extra fertizer to even be able to grow a crop of dandilions .
Now farm land is one thing .When I was in the navy after I got out later in the fall I trotted off to my favorite woods to hunt squirrels .Some pot licker knocked 2/3 of it down and built a golf course .Now that really sucks with a half life to coin an old nuke navy adage .
There are a few fields around here where everything that was not wanted was pushed into a high,long windrow. Stumps,topsoil and rocks.
Windrows after a few years are a good place for fox to den up .Get out the Walker hounds ,ten guys and the red rascals still give you the slip .Sly as a fox so to speak .No chip chip cheerio tally ho here in the corn fields .More like there goes the red son of -------< under the radar,nice guy Al ;D
ya all are just missing the point.
Not every forest absolutely has to be for commercial use, and not every farm is a business.
And trees grow fast here because it rains a lot, and its big business to replant. Not just because they are "soft" woods, even the maples get huge in 50 years, I've cut cotton woods that where 4' in diameter and maybe 30 years old.
4' in 30 years is pretty fast for sure, 8/10" ring. Big leaf maple out there is like growing red maple here. Rock maple and black maple grow a heck of a lot slower. I have box elder maple in the yard over 20" diameter in 35 years, not much good for anything. I've got a white oak over 30 years old, out in the open and barely 10", maybe 30 foot. Probably slower than a rock maple because I took down a 36" rock maple that was 85 years old, 3 cord of firewood, almost 80 feet tall, not quite. ;D
We kind of figured it out one time that oaks in praticular grow at about a tad over half as fast in the northern great lake states as they do in Georgia for example .It would also make sense NB sugar or as they call rock maple would be more dense farther north than it would be in the lake states .
We also like to discuss(argue)the virtues of northern Canadian maple as oppossed to the lake states .
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 15, 2013, 11:23:21 AM
4' in 30 years is pretty fast for sure, 8/10" ring. Big leaf maple out there is like growing red maple here. Rock maple and black maple grow a heck of a lot slower. I have box elder maple in the yard over 20" diameter in 35 years, not much good for anything. I've got a white oak over 30 years old, out in the open and barely 10", maybe 30 foot. Probably slower than a rock maple because I took down a 36" rock maple that was 85 years old, 3 cord of firewood, almost 80 feet tall, not quite. ;D
The area I live in hhave saw cottonwoood a fourr foot bar wwould not cut all the way thru with out knochiing it. I have cut them and went home wait for the wind to blow them down
Not a good idea to leave a tree partially cut and waiting for the wind to take it down.
How long does one wait? And how do you mark it so no one wanders near it when it does come down?
Best to leave it until someone can cut it down all the way. IMO
:D Fat trees .About two miles away from me on my way to work about 4-5 years ago somebody attacked a fat and I mean fat weeping willow .Growing right beside creek about 6 or 7 foot at the base .They clipped off the branchs and left the rest .In a year or two it looked like a plump woman with a bad hair day .Obviousy they didn't have enough bar to get-er-done .
Brian, if homesteading is your objective you should look for places that have strong Ag Extension, 4H and FFA programs. There's a lot more to successfully raising chickens, sheep, goats, cows and crops than you will ever find in a book.
Have you considered Cecil Co. MD? They have a 4H program that is consistently in the top 5 nationally for the past 8-10 years, and lots of small diverse farms. Land costs vary widely, as some of the farms are home to the best race horses in the nation, but there are bargains to be found. Elkton is only about five mile further from center city Philly than the site you mentioned, but the commute should be much better once you cross the PA/DE line.
There's a reason why we mostly all use long bars out here...
Out of all my saws I've only got one with a 20" the rest are 32" are better (there is a 28 running around here somewhere but I've never used it...)
I dumped a 36" cotton wood today, I should count the rings on it, I'm guessing its less then 20 years old though.
There are several species of cottonwood ya know .I would assume Washington state to have western balsam poplar ,Populus trichocarpa as oppossed to the eastern cottonwoods we have on this side of the country.
Just like there are several species of pine, maple etc.
I've heard them called black cotton wood, according to the wifey... populus balsamifera ssp. trichocarpa. So yeah I guess your right and stuff
The ones we have do get huge sometimes larger than the red oaks which can be real large for an eastern tree .
I've heard it said the eastern cottonwood grows rapidly for the first 40 or so years then gradually tapers off to a slower growth rate .It's been years since I fell one and I never really paid much attention to the size or amount of the rings .I do know they hold a lot of water .
Quote from: Delawhere Jack on December 15, 2013, 06:06:04 PM
Brian, if homesteading is your objective you should look for places that have strong Ag Extension, 4H and FFA programs. There's a lot more to successfully raising chickens, sheep, goats, cows and crops than you will ever find in a book.
Have you considered Cecil Co. MD? They have a 4H program that is consistently in the top 5 nationally for the past 8-10 years, and lots of small diverse farms. Land costs vary widely, as some of the farms are home to the best race horses in the nation, but there are bargains to be found. Elkton is only about five mile further from center city Philly than the site you mentioned, but the commute should be much better once you cross the PA/DE line.
Thanks for the tip DJ. Chester County, PA has a large extension office and Penn State as a bunch of programs too. I've already talked to several organizations that assist people getting started in homesteading/farming. You're right in that there is a ton of information that is not available in books, especially info that pertains to my local area.
Cecile County is just too far for me at the moment. I know mileage wise its not that much further but something about being below the Mason-Dixon line makes it another world away! ;)
To reply to a few comments, I am not looking to make a living off the homestead/farm from the get go. I want to provide for my family as much as I can from the property (meat, produce, wood, etc.). If I have extras or its just as much work to care for 5 pigs as it is to care for 30 (just an example as I don't know the exact caring needs for pigs yet), then I would look into selling at a farmer's market or CSA. Another thing is that I have 16 years left before I get a pension, and during that time I would like to build or establish a second career (market farm, woodworker, pig farmer, whatever) so I can make the transition smoothly. I would rather make all my mistakes and learning curves now when I have the steady income coming in.
Quote from: kilgrosh on December 16, 2013, 09:42:15 AM
Cecile County is just too far for me at the moment. I know mileage wise its not that much further but something about being below the Mason-Dixon line makes it another world away! ;)
Yes, yes it is. And as Martha Stewart would say "It's a good thing."
They call is "Cecil-tucky" for a reason.
Supporting a family off the 10 acres of cleared farm must have a different meaning. To me it's making a living as well as feeding yourselves. But if feeding yourselves is the goal, you can do that with far fewer acres. 1 acre would grow more stuff than a family of four could begin to eat. ;D
Oh tell me about it .My dad planted about a half an acre and fed a family of seven .I know very well where the old saying of "a tough row to hoe " came from .Green beans ,corn and Colorado mule deer . ;D
piggies are relatively easy, as long as you have a really good fence, good water and feed twice a day, they stay fat and happy, and grow quick too. One good sized hog should keep us in pork for better then a year, although there never seems to be enough bacon...
chickens are a snap, and provide lots of eggs if you get the right breed, just get half again as many chickens as eggs you use in a day. (some would call chickens the gateway animal to husbandry...)
Moo Cows take more land and more energy to raise, hay is not cheap, so if you can have enough pasture to make hay and support your herd without buying in hay or silage, otherwise they can get pretty spendy fast, however one adult cow will keep a family in beef for quite some time.
most of this is from experience, where on a 1/3 of an acre here, and raised 6 piggies in the last 3 years, and lots of chickens, not enough room to raise beefy cows, although I have family that does.
And a vegetable garden really does not need to be very big, our little patch provides about 50% (maybe more) of our veg needs 22'x38' is all it is, with some raised beds in the front yard.
just be careful with parasites with all your critters. some of them people can get too...
Now if I can get the apple trees to do some good...
I completely understand that I can feed a family of four on a smaller piece of land, like an acre or less. I want the larger piece of land because I would like to develop into a market farm/CSA style farmette. My general plan is to start small with a simple vegetable garden, try my hand at corn & grains, raise a pig or two, and have a few chickens. As I gain experience and my comfort level goes up, I will increase to larger crop areas, more pigs, more chickens, and add in some goats. And finally, the ultimate goal would be to have several acres of crops, 30-40 pigs for meat, 50 chickens for eggs and meat, 10-15 goats for meat and milk, 15 ewes for lambing and wool, raise a steer or two for beef, and turkeys or guinea fowl for seasonal markets. I would rather get all the land I need now and grow into it, than have to move every few years as I expand. Not to mention but I still would like to do some sort of wood production operation (sawmill, firewood, furniture, etc.). Everyone can dream big ;)
DJ, Pennsyltucky is any portion of PA west of the Susquehanna and north of the Ohio! ;)
You better work on the family, might need 8 or 9 kids to help. :)
8 or 9 chillens .R-U-nutz? Sure the good book says be fruitfull and multiply but it didn't say you had to fill in for somebody else .
Lawdy can you imagine 8 or 9 youngins and they were all girls ? By the time they were all teenagers a man would think he lived in a hen house .Not good ,don't do it . :o
In my grandfather's time that was an average sized family. Lots of 12-14 kids to a family in those times. My uncle has 7 and had several great grandchildren before he was 80, when he passed away. His oldest daughter is not much younger than my mother. :D
Yeah but some of those guys wore out two three women in the process .Start having youngens at 16 and dead and buried by 35 ,8 kids later .Go find another fertile one and do it all over again .
My Lawd a dozen kids if you didn't have a big truck patch you'd go weekly and buy groceries by the pick up truck full .Can you just imagine just the amount of toilet paper you'd use ?You'd have to have 4 bathrooms or if you had boys a bunch of trees .You'd have to buy an old school bus just to haul them all around
Gramps uncle married a young wife, by 23 years. Grew huge gardens all over the neighborhood, since his father was the first homesteader. That old woman lived as long as any that had 2 kids. It's the old man that was worn out. :D Cut'n wood, growing stuff, hunt'n, fish'n for meat. :D There was no hauling anyone, they walked or they didn't get there. Toilet sheds had 4 seats back then. Heck even when I was young there was the two seater in back of the wood shed. And the woodshed held 20 cord. Had to be filled each summer (woodshed). :D Dad here had two to fill, plus the basement, plus the wood for two potato sheds. You cut firewood all year 'round. :D
God's bless birth control and the ford tractor...
Ya all know that a tractor made slave/child labor obsolete right?
Kilgrosh, you sure can aim big... there is a CSA out here called Fruitful Farm,(Arlington WA/OSO WA) ran by a Mennonite family, they've only been going for like 5 years on about 2 acres, but they've turned a piece of blackberry choked hard pan nearly swamp into a very productive bit of dirt.
I think you have the issue of child labour or slave misconstrued. It was part of family survival to help on the farm at a young age. There was no money as in cash to speek of. Those children were my father and his father before. Both never spoke ill of the other or the ways. What you hear about (or I do) is some timber boss, company run store (work credits no cash) or food processor steeling what ever they could get away with. Your confusing the whole notion with some boss working you and your whole family to death so he can make big profits with low labour and material (timber, farm goods) costs. When those tractors came out, the majority of farmers couldn't afford to buy one.
Swamp you're talking about the 30's .Everybody was poor .Rich and poor alike ate Spam .
On ten acres you might raise some hogs or chicken and a truck patch and eke by but it won't work out very good if you ever want more out of life other than a spartan exisistance .Some people like that life style and if so have at it .
I grew up like we were poor but really were not .Both my parents lived through the great depression which forever patterned their lives to be frugal .
I'm lucky enough to have a good trade make a very good living and refuse to live like a wharf rat .The only reason I tinker with old junk ,firewood etc is because I enjoy it certainly not because I have to .
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 18, 2013, 11:49:01 AM
I think you have the issue of child labour or slave misconstrued. It was part of family survival to help on the farm at a young age. There was no money as in cash to speek of. Those children were my father and his father before. Both never spoke ill of the other or the ways. What you hear about (or I do) is some timber boss, company run store (work credits no cash) or food processor steeling what ever they could get away with. Your confusing the whole notion with some boss working you and your whole family to death so he can make big profits with low labour and material (timber, farm goods) costs. When those tractors came out, the majority of farmers couldn't afford to buy one.
Yer missing the joke..., and you never met the step drunk, to some folks kids just meant free labor or someone else that can do the dirty work, while they go to the pub or watch sports net...
I am impressed by all the comments on being a good steward of the land including the Leigh Family's intention.
For what it is worth, here is my take on things. Depending on the size of the wood, it appears that you need a tractor with a backhoe for your land clearing project and your future needs. Call the loggers to cut specific dangerous trees then clean it up with your tractor. Here is an example what can be done with a tractor that has loader arms, forks and backhoe attachment. Root around on my channel and you will see other land clearing projects.
https://youtu.be/DoXWbYDKRIk (https://youtu.be/DoXWbYDKRIk)
Good luck with your property.
Quote from: thenorthman on December 17, 2013, 09:34:30 PM
God's bless birth control and the ford tractor...
Ya all know that a tractor made slave/child labor obsolete right?
Kilgrosh, you sure can aim big... there is a CSA out here called Fruitful Farm,(Arlington WA/OSO WA) ran by a Mennonite family, they've only been going for like 5 years on about 2 acres, but they've turned a piece of blackberry choked hard pan nearly swamp into a very productive bit of dirt.
Yep, education and a tractor and women's life expectancy soars. Until 1900 men far outlived women. That flipped around wwii or shortly after. If there is a country where men live longer than women you are looking at horrible ignorance and poverty.