I have a propane tank, one I think they call a 20 lbs tank. You know the standard one you use to put in a grill for grilling out.
I use it to run a heater to warm up the backhoe so it will start.
I was wondering how I can tell how much is in it.
I thought that there was a way to pour some water over it and it would bead up or something below the level of the gas. But maybe that only in the summer time.
Will that work in the winter time?
The outside temperature here is less than 32° F so maybe it won't work.
I have a regular bathroom scale, can I weigh it to find out how much is in it?
How much should the empty tank weigh?
I don't want to go to one of these places that fills it up and pay the fee if it's half full. But I don't want to run out during a snow storm either.
Any advice would be helpful. Thanks
Jim Rogers
Tare weight should be stamped on the top rim "TW", weigh it and subtract the tare weight to see how much is left.
Ps. getting any snow over there? Were suppose to get hit Sunday.
Tell the place you take it to get it fill you want to pay by the gallon. A empty 20 lbs should only hold 3.5 gallon
Here may be some help.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060618181222AA1bYqI
Weight full 38 lb
Weight empty 18 lb
You could rig up a gauge to go in line. Same sort of gauge you'd use on a cutting torch. You can glance at the gauge and know how long you've got left. Or you could buy one like this for about $12. This one is similar to what would be on a fire extinguisher.
http://www.amazon.com/Flame-King-YSN-212-Propane-Cylinder/dp/B001T4M522 (http://www.amazon.com/Flame-King-YSN-212-Propane-Cylinder/dp/B001T4M522)
You just need to get a couple of tanks .I think I have 8 as a matter of fact .6 are full in the shed ,one is empty and one still on the grill and it's 25 degrees out .No BBQ today .
The weight thing will work, when you fill and buy by weight they check the tank, set the scale to the stamped weight added to the filler fitting and then put it to 20 lbs over that. Most people are like me and don't take it in unless it is empty so you get what you pay for. I have owned lots of tanks but I presently only have one that can be filled. If the date stamp on the tank is over 10 yrs old a reputable place will not fill it. Doesn't matter what the tank looks like.
There is a magnetic strip for about $5 that you can stick on the tank that will tell you the liquid level in the tank, but they work by temperature change at the liquid line so they work best when drawing propane from the tank.
But the easiest way is to just have an extra tank on hand.
And yes, you pay the same fill price no matter how much they put in the tank to refill. ::)
We can either pay a bulk price or by the gallon. I guess they hope you just pay the bulk price they make more money. Now this is at a hardware store that fill tanks they got a bulk tank a pump and meter system .
actually, most 20 lb. tanks, when completely empty, hold 4.5 gallons at 85%. Most propane dealers use a scale. Place tank on scale no matter if empty or not. When tank reaches full weight, pump shuts off. You pay for actual gas put in tank.
Folks there's a secret to every thing and it's legal .You get those old tanks ,pedal them off at those places they just swap tanks .
They used to be anal about the valves .Now they just want to see a tank .That's how I ended up with 8 of them .Lots of ways to skin that ole cat you just have to be smarter than the average bear .
Be aware of the tank you pic up that way also. I've gotten a crappy one now and then.
Bodago, I don't know about most. The local gas station has a set price for filling a tank so I don't think they measure volume pumped. You pay your whatever and the tank ends up full. No worse than the tank traders, if you trade in a tank that is partly full, they don't care and it still costs the same amount. The trade in places around here are very strict about tank date and they check every time. If it doesn't make the date, no trade.
QuoteLots of ways to skin that ole cat you just have to be smarter than the average bear .
Or cheat ;D
Well I suppose every local is different .I asked the lady at Lowes and she said as long as it's a tank it was good to go .It's like 19 bucks exchange .I can get them filled a few bucks cheaper so the trade might cost me 3 -4 dollars if you figure it like that .
Funny part is about half those tanks were given to me some half full .They bought a new grill and knew they couldn't use the old bottles .Part of being a junk yard dawg pack rat I guess . ;D
Blue Rhino is one of the exchange places around here, and they will take any tank on exchange. You just have to make sure that if you take an old internal thread tank in that you get the right thread back, although most valves now have both the internal and external threads.
Blue Rhino, that's a funny name for a propane company. I guess if one of those tanks blows up on you, you might think you've been run over by a blue rhinoceros. :D
Blue Rhino is also one of those places that likes to sell you a "full" tank that only has 15# of propane in it. Check out the label some time. I called them once to ask about it. They said they do that "for their customer's safety" so the tank won't burst if it's overfilled or if it warms up. That's a load of BS. The OPD valve will release pressure if it builds. Filling a tank to 15# is just a way of short-changing the customer, and most never realize it.
A typical fill on my 20# propane tank usually runs about 4.3 to 4.5 gallons (18 to 19 pounds), depending on how empty it was when I brought it in (my grill gets flaky before the tank is bone dry).
Thanks for all your comments and advice.
Jim Rogers
Quote from: John Mc on December 14, 2013, 03:39:54 PM
A typical fill on my 20# propane tank usually runs about 4.3 to 4.5 gallons (18 to 19 pounds), depending on how empty it was when I brought it in (my grill gets flaky before the tank is bone dry).
I fill my own tanks. For me, that 4.3 to 4.5 gallons of propane would cost me a little over $6. Sometimes less. So if you are paying $19 for an exchange, that leaves $12+ for profit. Plus you probably pay tax besides.
I think Sportsman's Guide .com has a gauge to put on the tank's that will tell you how much is in the tank :snowball:
I can get them filled for around 12-13 bucks .The exchange deal is 19 to 21 bucks depending on where you go .
It's a conveniance .You got twenty people guzzling beer on the patio waiting for the chow to get done and the gas runs out on Sunday afternoon .What do you do? Run to Lowes or some place and get more gas before they drink up all the beer and eat raw hamburgers .
Get a cup of hot or boiling water and dump it on the tank. A frost line will appear at the tanks present level.
Al, I thought you had 8 of those tanks?
If you empty all 8 of those tanks in an afternoon, you must be running an industrial incinerator instead of a barbeque grill.
That's some heavy duty cooking. 8)
He likes crowds ;D.
Takes alot of grilling to convince them 100:1 oil people to mend their wicked ways. ;D
Those oil arguments are tiring long and drawn out, so the guests end up drinking a lot of beer :D.
There are so many replies about the propane tank you would think it was a grease gun. ;D
Quote from: Hilltop366 on December 15, 2013, 01:19:59 AM
There are so many replies about the propane tank you would think it was a grease gun. ;D
Thank you! We like to leave no stone unturned. :)
It's a slight break from the oil wars . ;D
Interesting,they pinch you a little bit on those bottle swaps .No wonder they don't belly ache about old bottles .
Well, I never got to test any of the solutions you guys suggested to me, as my tank went dry today while trying to warm up the backhoe engine enough to start.
So, I went to my local hardware store that sells propane, the place where I normally get it. And got it filled up.
The nice girl clerk told me that the tank weighs 20 lbs empty and 40 lbs full. And they charged me $20.
They had a sign on the gate that said $4 a gallon if buying by the gallon.
Jim Rogers
Jim,
Your lucky, you now have a known full tank to use for reference. Best way to keep from running dry is to find an old spring style hanging scale or fish scale. You could even make your own with a screen door spring, 2 hooks and a peice of pipe. Put your full tank on it before you use any and make a reference mark at the point the bottom of the spring hangs down. Label it full. Put an empty tank on the same spring and mark that point as empty. Now you have your own quick reference propane gauge that will work fairly accurately, regardless of outside temps.
My propane grill has a fancier version of this setup but same general idea.
A lever/counterweight scale would work too. Just need a full tank to establish reference weight. You get the concept, don't need to measure real weight in pounds.
:D Jims' just going to get off that moldy money and buy a couple more tanks is all .Now long as I've lived I've never seen a Brinks truck in a funeral procession .
I just keep a full tank in reserve. Then try to remember to have the empty on filled before the good one is empty. ;) ;)
After my wife leaves for NC for Christmas to visit her grandchildren, I'll go out onto the front porch and get the tank out of the grill that belongs to her daughter's boyfriend. They'll never know it's gone until May.....
Jim Rogers 8)
Well you might care to get it full before May else you might get a raw hamburger .That would be bad ,yuck.
Sounds like a good plan Jim.
If they say anything, just tell them the gas was going to go bad setting over the winter anyway. You just saved them from cleaning out a mess in the spring. 8)
We do propane tank exchanges at my wife's convenience store and when somebody slips in an old tank or one without the triangular valve we pay for a new tank. The employees are mostly trained now but it got expensive for awhile. So if you are looking to get rid of your old tank for a newer style please don't do it at your local Mom and Pop tank exchange, they are paying for the tank you got.
I still like being able to just glance at a gauge to see how much is left in the tank, and not having to worry about checking the weight. Just screw the gauge on your tank and then your hose onto the gauge.
Here's a pic of a gauge at Lowes for about $12. You can put together a more accurate gauge similar to this one using fittings from any hardware store and an old acetylene gauge.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12331/propane_gauge.JPG)
I'll look at Lowes and see if I can find one.
Thanks for the tip.
Jim Rogers
Quote from: Thehardway on December 17, 2013, 03:42:47 PM
Jim,
Your lucky, you now have a known full tank to use for reference. Best way to keep from running dry is to find an old spring style hanging scale or fish scale. You could even make your own with a screen door spring, 2 hooks and a peice of pipe. Put your full tank on it before you use any and make a reference mark at the point the bottom of the spring hangs down. Label it full. Put an empty tank on the same spring and mark that point as empty. Now you have your own quick reference propane gauge that will work fairly accurately, regardless of outside temps.
My propane grill has a fancier version of this setup but same general idea.
A lever/counterweight scale would work too. Just need a full tank to establish reference weight. You get the concept, don't need to measure real weight in pounds.
You do need to keep in mind that all empty tanks are not the same weight. Still, most are within a pound or so of each other, so that mark on a spring scale will at least give you a decent reference
I've used several different fill stations over the last few years. None of them are using their scales any more. Since the OPD valves became standard, most are just filling until the relief valve pops. Some charge "by the fill", a price that assumes you are empty (whether you actually are or not). Some charge by the gallon. Some who charge by the fill will stop at 4 gallons (or some other set number), whether it's full or not.
Quote from: Rockn H on December 18, 2013, 01:53:18 AM
I still like being able to just glance at a gauge to see how much is left in the tank, and not having to worry about checking the weight. Just screw the gauge on your tank and then your hose onto the gauge.
Here's a pic of a gauge at Lowes for about $12. You can put together a more accurate gauge similar to this one using fittings from any hardware store and an old acetylene gauge.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12331/propane_gauge.JPG)
This gauge does not work as one would expect. It is measuring the gas pressure in the tank not the liquid level. As long as you have some liquid in the tank the gauge will say it is full. The pressure of the gas in the tank varys a lot with the temperature of the tank. So if it is really cold the pressure will be low and so would the needle. Hotter the higher the pressure. So even if you only have a few ounces of fluid left in the tank you would have full gas pressure(depending on temperature). As you use that last bit of propane the liquid turns to a gas and you are left with only propane gas. From there your gauge will start dropping quickly and saying you are out, of course by then you are out.
T Red
Good reply.
What I've heard too... the gauge just confirms why the burner just stopped producing a flame or won't light. Doesn't give much pre-warning information.
Best, IMO, to just spend the money for an extra spare tank.
Nothing worse than a partially cooked grill full of steaks or burgers or brats, and the flame goes out with all those hungry people standing around drinking one more round while you buzz off to the nearest gas depot (if one is open that services tanks). Spend almost as much running the vehicle to town as the propane needed.
T Red, yes and no. I've used a 20lb propane tank on my cutting torch for years and that's where I got the ideal for using the same type gauge for the camp back in the day. The gauge will start out above 150 lbs pressure and slowly drop as you use the propane. It doesn't just stay at the top and then suddenly start dropping. Yes, temperature does play a role in how the gauge is going to read, but you still get a good ideal as to how much you have left. I'm not saying it's as accurate as weight, because temperature doesn't affect weight. I'm just saying for me, it's quicker to have a gauge on the bottle and just glance at it. I'll add that I don't know how well the gauge I pictured works, I've always used an acetylene pressure gauge off of a regulator that just reads up to about 400lbs. I'd think they'd work the same though.
Propane in leau of actylene is a less expensive option .Some like it,I don't .
Long winded conversation about propane tanks and remembered I have two more I had forgotten about .One on a 6 panal catalitic heater ,Ember Glow I have in the garage .Another on a lead pot I have to "boot leg " to get filled .Top discharge valve non safety type .
C'mon Jim get some more tanks ,I have 10 . ;D
I bought a tank for the Pizza Oven at a grilling store.
They also do refills there. The tank has this type gauge on it.
I haven't had to refill yet so I don't know if they're accurate.
When I move the tank around the gauge fluctuates as the pressure moves inside the tank.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/Tank_Gauge.jpg)
Quote from: Rockn H on December 18, 2013, 01:25:59 PM
T Red, yes and no. I've used a 20lb propane tank on my cutting torch for years and that's where I got the ideal for using the same type gauge for the camp back in the day. The gauge will start out above 150 lbs pressure and slowly drop as you use the propane. It doesn't just stay at the top and then suddenly start dropping. Yes, temperature does play a role in how the gauge is going to read, but you still get a good ideal as to how much you have left.
The reason the pressure drops as you draw propane from the tank is because of the cooling effect of evaporating liquid propane inside the tank as you remove propane gas. What is really happening is you are lowering the temperature of the tank and the vapor pressure of propane is lower at lower temperatures. So when you interrupt your draw of gas, the temperature of the tank and contents will go back up to ambient and the pressure will go back up to where it was when you started.
So as T Red said, there is a sharp drop in pressure the instant the last drop of liquid in the tank disappears. So those pressure gauges are really just indicators to confirm they are empty.
Had a bottle filled at local propane company and weighed it. just exchanged a bottle at menards and weighed it. 7 pounds lighter than the one filled locally. Reading this thread caused me to weigh the bottles. Another value of the FF family.
Quote from: trapper on December 21, 2013, 03:13:31 PM
Had a bottle filled at local propane company and weighed it. just exchanged a bottle at menards and weighed it. 7 pounds lighter than the one filled locally. Reading this thread caused me to weigh the bottles. Another value of the FF family.
My one nephew worked for one of the tank exchanging outfits delivering bottles a few years back so he lifted bunches of them. At first they held 20LBs, the next year 17LBs and now 15LBs. The paper tag listed the weight so it's legal but deceiving, who reads the paper tag. >:(
I think it's pretty much a known fact you don't get a full bottle .They get by with it it because it's conveniant .In my case it's a way to get rid of my old bottles of which I have one left .I think right after the holidays I'll do that very thing.
Quote from: trapper on December 21, 2013, 03:13:31 PM
Had a bottle filled at local propane company and weighed it. just exchanged a bottle at menards and weighed it. 7 pounds lighter than the one filled locally. Reading this thread caused me to weigh the bottles. Another value of the FF family.
Remember there can be some significant difference in the empties.
Some (Most? All?) of the tank exchange businesses are not providing full tanks, however, I've never seen one marked s containing less than 15 pounds.
I don't ever remember putting 20lbs of propane in a 20lb tank. It has always been 85% of whatever size tank you were filling, unless you left it in a cooler.The propane needs room for expansion, otherwise ka-boom.
I believe putting 20 lb of propane in a tank does leave the room for expansion.
Several places for information about filling tanks can be found. An explanation of the filling with only 15 lbs is available too, but the tanks should end up when full with 20 lb of propane. One link, of many....
http://www.elivermore.com/propane.htm
Quote from: bodagocreek2 on December 22, 2013, 05:53:15 AM
I don't ever remember putting 20lbs of propane in a 20lb tank. It has always been 85% of whatever size tank you were filling, unless you left it in a cooler.The propane needs room for expansion, otherwise ka-boom.
As much of a pain in the neck as the switch to OPD valves was, that's the purpose of them. No kaboom. They are designed to relieve pressure if it goes too high. You lose a little propane to the atmosphere, but no burst tank.
I think some of y'all should come give a school on filling propane tanks to the local propane companies here. lol They will not put more than 17 lbs in a 20lb bottle, or 85lbs in a 100lb bottle. The 100 lb bottle really kills me because I want all I can get in it. I have to "have it filled" and that means getting it by during the day when someone is there that "can" fill it, so naturally want to cut down on the refills. ;)
I don't believe 60lb tanks and above have OPD valves, hence the 85%.
Quote from: John Mc on December 22, 2013, 10:23:42 AM
As much of a pain in the neck as the switch to OPD valves was, that's the purpose of them. No kaboom. They are designed to relieve pressure if it goes too high. You lose a little propane to the atmosphere, but no burst tank.
The OPD valves are an internal float valve that prevents you from exceeding the 85% liquid fill level. It is NOT designed to relieve pressure. There is a separate relief valve that was also there before the OPD valves became the required type of valve.
If you were to over pressurize the tank and as long as you were under the relief valve setting, the pressure could and will come to equilibrium by internally condensing some gas into liquid which will lower the pressure. That is true as long as the tank is allowed to cool.
Thanks for the info, Gary. So the little spritz of gas I see/hear on occasion when someone is filling a tank is the OPD float hitting it's limit?
If the person doing the filling has the bleed valve open while filling, that spritz is probably the first bit of liquid to reach the 85% fill tube. I fill my own tanks by the bleed fill method, no scale or meter, and that spritz is my indication that the 85 % full level is getting close. As soon as the liquid comes steady out of the bleed valve, I know the tank is full.
Some people that fill tanks say you can hear the float slam shut, but I have not heard that. But most of my tanks have the old style valves without the OPD. I hate to fill tanks with the OPD because it takes so long to fill them. That mechanism of that float inside the tank restricts the flow when you are filling.
I am fairly sure the pumps they use for filling LP tanks have a means for reliving pressure back the the main tank while pumping the liquid into the tank being filled. If they did not, it's possible the relief valve on the tank could vent some of the pressure while filling.
I have had one of those new type valve bottles on a grill that would not let gas come out no matter what you did. I found out I could hook it on my dads grill and it would work if you turned in on in a painfully slow manner.... I got me a new one and let him have it. we fill all of our own bottles at home.
when they first came out with the new ones, we could still get the old bottles filled for awhile if you stenciled FORKLIFT on the side of the old bottles.
I get mine filled at tractor supply they only charge for what they put in the tank.
Gary, I also fill my own tanks, have for decades, when the new style valves came out, we just put the new valves into the old tanks. As for the different weights of gas put in the new tanks, that's mainly because of the new valves, the stem is longer into the tank and they've changed the float mechanism slightly and now the tanks don't hold as much, also some do it by weight and as a precaution they shut it off with a less percent full, some claim its got to do with insurance and safety, that way there is never the smell of gas leaking on a hot day.
The reason the new tanks don't fill as fast is because the float doesn't drop down as far on the new tanks as it did on the old tanks, they are supposed to fill slower, when they pump them full, its under pressure and that helps some too, but its still slower, with the float stem longer, you can no longer tip the new tanks to over fill them anymore like you used to be able to do, I think, but could be wrong, but since the new valves came out, they've even changed them a little too over time, I'm thinking lately the newest float stems are even longer still, to lower the percentage full even more, hence the reason why some tanks full are even lighter yet.
If you want to save the hassles of having to wonder if your tank is empty, go to an motor home place, buy the tank changeover kit, hook two tanks together and once one becomes empty, it automatically changes to the full tank, that way one is always empty before it changes to the full tank. I use the Hilton cordless heater on some of my equipment and I hook several tanks together to run the heater for a week or more to keep the engine warm in remote locations. I fill a lot of tanks each year, maybe 50 or more.
As for the bbq issue, not a problem, have the boys who come, kick in a few bucks and go buy another tank, do this a few times they come and before long, you've got a half dozen tanks on hand and more than enough gas to keep grilling all summer long and enough gas to warm the backhoe all winter long once they are full.
Quote from: Gary_C on December 17, 2013, 07:20:51 PM
Sounds like a good plan Jim.
If they say anything, just tell them the gas was going to go bad setting over the winter anyway. You just saved them from cleaning out a mess in the spring. 8)
Heck that's what we call Tiger Meat around here, a lil onion, crackers and some adult beverages suit me just fine. Just so it's good hamburger.