Well I have been using my solar kiln for over a year now and it's time to put in a new Nyle. I have had good luck with solar one but it just won't keep up with the amount of lumber I am selling. Does anyone have a Nyle kiln and is there anything I should know before building the chamber. The chamber will be 14' x 12' with a sliding door on the front. Here are a few pictures of my solar kiln.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30277/048.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30277/050.JPG)
I just built one for the L53. My chamber is 11.5' wide and 9.5' deep.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Kiln_1.JPG)
WDH, Is your floor concrete? What is the plywood for under the 6x6's? I bought the 200. Have you used yours yet? I'm a little nervous it seem's to be a whole different ballgame on drying wood.
I just sent you a PM. The kiln chamber is built under an old carport. The floor of the carport is concrete, but I layed down treated 2x4's, then added a layer of 1/2" treated CDX plywood on top of the 2x4's, then a joist floor of 2x8's on top of that with 9" of fiberglass insulation, then 2" of pink rigid foam insulation (polystyrene), then a 6 mil polyethylene vapor barrier, then topped with another 1/2" layer of treated CDX plywood. That was the floor that the walls were built from.
The plywood on the floor in the pic is what I use as guide to line up the tractor with the pallet of wood that I will load into the kiln. It serves as a guide so I know how far in to place the load. The pallets that the wood is stickered on are 4' wide, so they fit right on the 4' x 8' piece of plywood. I am just finishing my 4th load in the kiln, three of which were pine that I will use to build the pallets to sticker the wood on.
Check out this thread. Forum member Yellowhammer has a Nyle Kiln and a bunch of experience. I traveled over to see his set up and was very impressed. Robert (Yellowhammer) has a very well thought thru and efficient operation. He has the L53 like I, but the process is basically the same for the L200, it just can dry bigger loads.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,68986.msg1035199.html#msg1035199
You will find that the L300 or bigger is more versatile than the 50 or 200. As it sounds like this will be a growing business for you, versatility would be a good benefit to have. The smaller, less expensive units can indeed dry wood, but the 300 and bigger have more options for you when drying. When you locate the kiln, make sure you plans have a spot for the next kiln too...hate to see the first one in the wrong spot if you do indeed expand. Also, you will need a dry lumber storage building as production increases, more stickers, maybe an air drying shed, etc.
I have been a consultant to many start-up operations and I find that they often have trouble with cash flow on a week or monthly basis. That is, over a year, things are good, but some months things are so slow that they run out of cash. So, use a loan to purchase equipment and save your cash. As you make money, pay off the loan, but always keep a reasonable cash reserve.
Finally, step #1 should be to formulate a business plan. Your local extension office can help, or maybe the state has a small business help office. The plan forces you to plan and consider all the aspects of the business. It is well worth the effort.
Handling 500 Bf to 1000 BF at a time in a kiln load is one thing, but handling 4000 to 8000 BF in a kiln load is another. You have to be set up big to handle that many BF, and you will need much more infrastructure to handle that much wood. That is fine if you are set up for it.
Perfect timing for this post. I too am working on building a Nyle L200M kiln and was going to use a insulated sea container. and a track system to move the material in & out. I have been trucking my material to a kiln 150 miles away (one way) with tolls of $100 and traffic I said "Uncle". My concern has been the cost per kilowatt. It crazy expensive here 27 cent Ouch! but doing the math it will still be cheep for to dry my own material, plus I have the control of material rotation.
Gene I have my Business Plan and you are 100% correct about cash flow. Working now on a small loan
Good advice from Gene; if I had it to do over again I would go with a model larger than my L200.
There are several things that I have learned from 10 years of operation.
First - ease of loading and unloading makes a big difference in labor costs. My next kiln will be setup so that I can fork the stacks directly in and out of the kiln. Loading carts is time consuming and problematic.
Second, the size of the kiln chamber is important with regard to air flow. Forget using a container - go with a dedicated building with a shape optimized for airflow and loading.
Third, baffling the load is important to managing air flow in a small kiln, but it is also time consuming and thus costly. Factor in ways to be able to quickly baffle. Consistent stack lengths and widths help in this area.
Fourth, to save on electric consumption, be sure that the kiln chamber is well insulated. My next kiln will use spray foam insulation.
Fifth - In our part of the country during the first part of the drying process it is hard to keep the temperatures down in the summer time, especially if the kiln is well insulated. Vents will be important.
As always Gene had some good advise. But in this case I will only be drying around 1000 to 1500 bf per month. I will be building it so it will take 14' lumber. I would love to use spray foam but I just cant afford it right now but I'm sure it will cost me in the long run. My solar kiln will work as a pre drying shed now or a place to dry the 2" live edge slabs. I was happy with the L200 because I was going to get the smaller one at first. It seems no matter what I build or buy it's never big enough so I am starting to level my business out at a manageable point so I wont get to big. I have a full time job and I plan on keeping it until my kids are through college. I will be taking pictures and keeping you posted. SCSmith42, Do you dry your slabs in your kiln?
Buried in this thread is the build out of my L200 kiln chamber with a few modifications.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,1400.msg16897.html
I placed doors on either end of the chamber so I could move the cart through while I loaded another one. This has saved me more than once as I can be sawing and loading the next cart while the kiln is running.
SCSmith is dead on when he mentions the advantages of being able to load the kiln directly with a fork lift. Another method would be to extend the rails so that the kiln cart can be loaded using a fork lift, tractor or some such. Handling the lumber to stack, sticker, un stack and collect stickers is time consuming and costly.
You will have no trouble getting 1500 bdft a month, in fact I think the biggest thing you will notice going from solar to DH is just how much lumber they will crank out; I try to get a load out every one to two weeks based on species, predrying, etc.
There is a tradeoff on kiln compressor horsepower (large vs small) because to maximize profit per kilowatt its necessary to run full loads relative to the species or thickness being dried, and to dry at the maximum rate the wood will allow. Since its not a good idea to mix loads of species or thickness, the capacity of the kiln in many ways will drive your lumber production, maybe more than desirable. The higher the capacity the kiln, the more lumber required to feed it to maximize kW/bdft. Nothing worse than putting a short load in the kiln, hitting the "on" button, and watching the power meter start spinning knowing a full load would take the same time.
YH
Sometimes bigger may not be better. It is all in how you are set up, unless you are a big commercial operation.
Quote from: WDH on December 18, 2013, 10:00:34 PM
Sometimes bigger may not be better. It is all in how you are set up, unless you are a big commercial operation.
smiley_thumbsup
I have a couple buddies (or competitors ;D) in my area who are one man operations like me and have higher capacity kilns, but interestingly enough, they almost always end up running partial loads because they can't saw enough to keep the kilns at full capacity. I have the same throughput (or more) than them, at significantly reduced operating cost.
YH
YellowHammer makes a great point. A business plan will direct a new person to the correct size kiln. Smaller sizes can be more versatile at times. However, if the kiln is not full, then one might seriously consider working harder to get some custom drying to fill it. Especially if wood is air dried, we can mix species and thicknesses in the same kiln load. If one is going to run the kiln partially full, what is the cost of adding more lumber to fill it? It is not huge, so custom drying can be economically attractive for the customer and kiln owner.
Very good point.
Quote from: Sawdust Lover on December 18, 2013, 07:47:57 PM
SCSmith42, Do you dry your slabs in your kiln?
The kiln dries primarily 4/4 and 5/4 lumber. Thick slabs are air dried for a few years as needed before going into the kiln for sterilizing and finishing them off.
I have a Nyle L200M. It has been working well for me. I can put up to 3000 bdft of oak (16' lengths) in and it will dry in about 25 days (with some prior air-drying). I have also dried about 1500 bdft of green white pine in 7+ days to 12-14%. A well insulated chamber is important (floor included). For oak I have used about 1000 kWh of electricity (in the summer though).
In regards to kiln sizing, I would prefer to have a number of smaller kilns as opposed to one large one. Usually my quantities are in the 1000-2000 bdft range, particularly for the hardwoods. Sometimes I need to run more than one species at a time.
Here are some updates on the progress. The pad is 14' x 20' so I am using 4' of it to store lumber before it goes into the kiln. Therfore the kiln is 14' x 16'. It will have a sliding door on the front so I can load it with the forks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30277/IMG_5773.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30277/IMG_5772.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30277/IMG_5771.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30277/IMG_5770.JPG)
Are you going with the L200?
Yes, I bought the unit a few weeks ago.
I built a chamber for a LM200 a couple of years ago.
i'm in western ny with winters being around 20 degrees f and here's my list of things i'd do different.
i built with 2x6 and stone wool insulation. stone wool has better r-value and insulates if wet. what i noticed was that heat was transferred through the 2x6's to the outside. i would have staggered the studs and put them on 24" centers. better yet i would have gone with SIP structural integrated panels with no studs and no transfer.
i had trusses built and insulated between them. next time i'll put in ceiling joists and insulate that or better yet 8" SIP and then roof structure.
don't make bifold doors.
i built 14 x18 should have gone 14 x 20. i can fit 16' inside but not much room to move.
i'm sure there is more but i've only run a few loads and these are the glaring items i would change. the plans they sent for the kiln are good.
Thanks for that info C_Miller. I don't want to be the guy that's says I wish I did this different. All the info I can get know is greatly appreciated.
you are welcome, i remembered talking to a guy about spray foam, after the fact of course, he was telling me the biggest advantage comes in the first inch and a quarter where the foam seals the building. had i known i would have gone with the shallower depth on the foam and filled in with stone wool. alot of the transfeer thru the studs would have been eliminated. there are DIY kits on line and some local distributors too. i would highly encourage this. the kits are only a couple hundred dollars and will definitely pay for themselves in future tuition.
Merry Christmas
Good idea! I will check in to the DIY spray foam. I had a quote from someone to spray it but it was 5 times more.
As the kiln can get to 150 F or hotter near the top when the fans are off, check the temperature limits of the foam. Many evaporate at these temperatures.
What about maybe just spraying the walls? 150 degrees seems pretty hot. I hope I don't catch nothing on fire.
At the peak of the roof, the temperature can approach 200 F when the fans are off. Direct sunlight on a black, insulated surface can easily exceed 150 F.
Ignition temperature for wood is nominally around 450 F.
If you line the chamber on the inside with 2" of rigid foam, seal the joints with high temp silicon caulk, then cover that with 1/2" of the foil backed rigid foam with joints staggered to the 2" foam, seal these joints with aluminum tape like that used to seal air ducts, then add your vapor barrier, then 1/2" of pressure treated plywood, that should help minimize heat loss thru the studs in the walls.
One other thing that I did not see in your photo is that you will want at least two man doors into your kiln chamber - one on each side of the stack so that you can easily check the load (and if necessary fix any leaks in the baffling) during the drying process.
I've been told (but have not confirmed) that the best blend between cost and performance for insulation was to use a hybrid of spray foam and batts. An inch or so of spray foam goes in first to seal everything up, and then the batts go behind it. I think that this was also the point that C_Miller was making, and he has a great point about staggering the studs.
I would suggest that rigid styrofoam boards (also called blue boards or pink boards) would be the best insulation, as they are durable, won't sag, and will not absorb water. If the interior is a sheet of plywood, the insulation should be cool enough to prevent melting or evaporation.
We got the roof on today and put up the beam that will hold the sliding door. Will start insulating and put up the framing to hold the fans this weekend. Will be adding another door on the side to be able to get to both sides of the kiln. Does anybody know what type of doors I should use or should I just build them. I'm not sure if a regular insulated door is enough.
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(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30277/IMG_5829.JPG)
A well insulated door is fine. Heat loss through the frame can be large, so make sure you have a good fit, etc.
That's all I needed to hear! I will get some doors tomorrow. Thanks Gene.
It sure is looking good.
I'd like to mention that the door seals are absolutely critical. They should be as air tight as possible. Spare no effort making them right. Also as the door moves and ages, the seals and gaskets need to inspected regularly.
During normal compressor operation leaks will not be overly noticeable, because in many instances, the vents will be open anyway to allow excess heat to escape.
However, you will find how well the seals are working when its time to sterilize in the dead of winter using only the kW sucking heat strips, and when you compare your winter electricity bill to your summer bill. :D
YH
Looking good so far, can wait till you get it done and I'll make the trip up. Keep the pictures coming, I like to get ideas for when I start. Ricky
I'm looking in to the L2oo, boy they don't give them away :o
Did you guys get the door gasket kits?
And the moisture system for it to turn itself off when moisture content is reached? A lot of money for a kit, and I still have to make the box. :D :D :D
Going to have to sell a lot of lumber to pay for that. :D :D But it does look like the next step.
O.K. So I got the kiln done and loaded it 2 days ago. Sorry no pictures yet it was 0 deg and snowing. I started by loading the kiln with 1300 bf of red oak that was down to 30%. It was so cold and the wood had seen a few below 0 nights I couldn't wait to get some heat in there. I shut the door and started the kiln to preheat by itself. Nothing was happening for 3 hours. After messing around with everything I found out that the kiln will not preheat until the drybulb is 32 deg. I had to hold the drybulb in my hand and that started heating the kiln. Once it got warm enough I could let it be. The temperature is now up to 105 with a target of 110 dry bulb and 98 wet bulb. It is really moist inside the chamber but the compressor has not yet turned on to get some of that water out. They told me at Nyle that this was normal. So I am happy that my chamber is working with tempartures being 20 deg below normal here in Virginia. I'm hoping all this works out, It's a pretty big investment!
Peter,
I got the door gasket kit. Pricy, but I get a very good seal with the doors shut. I shamelessly learned a lot from Yellowhammer and his experiences.
I did not get the auto-vents (operate the vents manually), and I do not believe that the L53 comes with the auto-moisture detection.
The L53 compressor will not come on and run until the dry bulb reaches 80 degrees in the kiln. It will auto-shutdown if the dry bulb temp goes above 132 degrees. I learned that the hard way.
Thanks, I have learned a lot from all you guys about this kiln. Now I have to plan.
I am going to put a addition on my woodworking shop this spring, Now I have to think how to fit the kiln in the works. I'm thinking on the south wall where it gets sun all day, Might help in the winter to keep the outside worm and not fight the ice and snow,[ melt a little on a nice day]
I have all the info from Nyle, Plans and all. :)
i run a l 500 my kiln chamber is 32' wide i have 2 doors that swing out ea. door is 10 x 14 giving me a 28' opening.i change the load with my skidsteer, making the loading/unloading very easy.
i don't agree with always running your kiln at full cap. the cost per load is in direct relation to amount of time in the kiln, smaller load will get done sooner than a full load.this statment is for partilly air dried wood only.
i think the biggest cost of running a kiln in a cold weather climate is heat. i havent turned the elcetric heater on the kiln unit for years, i run a hotwater heat source which basically costs pennies to operate.on average we run the kiln 30 days a month or about 30 -50,000 b.f./ month and the electric cost to run the kiln is on average about $450/ month. if i was running the heater add another $900 / mo.
the next kiln charge i plan on taking some pictures showing my whole kiln setup.
I would really enjoy seeing some pics of the kiln operation.
Quote from: WDH on January 31, 2014, 07:31:14 AM
I would really enjoy seeing some pics of the kiln operation.
smiley_thumbsup
Especially the hot water setup
YH