The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: lynde37avery on January 10, 2014, 07:57:18 PM

Title: load count.
Post by: lynde37avery on January 10, 2014, 07:57:18 PM
as some of you may not know, I work on specific calculations with my logging. every piece is fully inspected and marked with measurement on tip before sent to the mill. my loads of "spruce, hardwood, white pine" have been good so far. 3 loads this month n only 2 more I will meet my personal quota I would like to achieve every month. I will be able to tell exactly how many logs every month I sold and how much I got and spent.

How many of you guys work like this? I might seem kind of a geek or w/e but its fun and been tought to do this since week one in the woods.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Phorester on January 10, 2014, 08:07:51 PM

Somebody's got to do that, whether it's you or another employee.  Over the years I've seen a few chainsaw operators, truck drivers think they can go into business for themselves instead of "working for the other man", then loose their a$$ because they had no business sense and didn't think they needed it. 6 months or a year later and they're back to working for somebody else again.  Being able to cut a tree or drive a truck is one thing, running a business is another.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: thenorthman on January 10, 2014, 11:08:23 PM
I keep a running tally, and check the mill tickets to see if they are close, but I certainly don't scale and count every log, I'm usually wrong anyway... as long as the mill counts every log and keeps within what I figure the loads are worth I'm happy, besides its not like I can just call em up and say give me back my logs, I'm takin em down the road.

The other stuff like fuel, parts, etc yeah I keep a close eye on all of that, but don't get to bent out of shape about whether or not I'm spending to much on something, as long as its within in a certain range, I'll make money, if I start spending too much on staples then I need to raise my prices.  For example the latest job has taken many times more gravel to get the trucks in and out than I had originally estimated, I should have changed what I was paying/getting payed.  But deal is a deal so I'll eat a little bit of crow on this one.  Of course now I have a dump truck and the cost for rock just fell through the floor... so have to change the parameters again...
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: BargeMonkey on January 11, 2014, 02:16:49 AM
 We keep 99% of the soft wood we cut, and run through our own mill, so of course we do better on that. As far as hardwood, when we drop a load at the mill we total the # of logs dropped and the mill scales but we have a good idea what the load will bring before we drop it off. On an average lot, with 1 guy skidding and 1 guy hand cutting we figured 2-3 loads of good logs and 5-6 loads of firewood a week, less than that you arent making anything.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: timberlinetree on January 11, 2014, 06:22:03 AM
I wish I kept better track always thought  the log trucker was putting the big logs on top to hold down the load :-\ nope it was so he could unload them at his house before going to the mill >:(
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Autocar on January 11, 2014, 08:01:08 AM
I try to scale every log before I truck them to any mills , it takes more time then I like some times so when that happens I truck them home then when I take them to the mill I scale them when I unload. Not that I don't trust them I just like to know if my scale standing is close to whats laying in the feild.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: lynde37avery on January 11, 2014, 08:52:05 AM
ok so I don't sound too obsessive compulsive then.
I been working on learning Microsoft excel program, so I can have a backup to my hand written books. its slow going so there isn't a lot of numbers in it yet but soon I hope for a good outcome.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Dave Shepard on January 11, 2014, 09:32:57 AM
I'm not familiar with Excel, but I used to put everything into Quickbooks when I had a landscaping business. It was nice to be able to pull up any expense or income stream and see what the numbers were. The numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: g_man on January 11, 2014, 10:15:25 AM
I am a very small time "hobby logger" as you guys call it, who works in his own woods so my situation is different. I have  very small MBF numbers compared to full timers.

I can see both sides of this discussion have valid points like "it's going to the mill anyway and I have to go by there numbers anyway so why take the time to scale". To me it just doesn't seem right to always let someone else tell you what you have. How do you know if one mill or log yard gives you better measure than another if you don't know what is on the truck when you deliver it? At three loads a day it could make quite a difference over a year.

In my case, the only way I learned to buck saw logs for best money was by scaling them myself and then watching the mill guy scale them when I could. Most scalers I have meet in mills and yards are decent and will show you stuff that you missed if you are not a pita to them. You can learn a lot from them. Also if I hadn't done that I would not know a $20 tree from a $200 tree standing in the woods.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: jwilly3879 on January 11, 2014, 10:25:20 AM
It definitely pays to have a good idea what is going out. Especially true with a mill you are not familiar with. Earlier last year out normal buyer was shutdown so we shipped to another mill. I had conservatively scaled 43 logs at 7420 and when I picked up the scale slip and check it was 5400bf and 42 logs, missing was a 400bf 14 footer. Needless to say that mill will never get anymore of our logs!
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: thecfarm on January 11, 2014, 10:29:03 AM
My Father amd me use to scale the load every so often. But like g_man,we was just cutting on our land. No more than 3 loads a month. Easy to keep track off when you are small time.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Dave Shepard on January 11, 2014, 10:35:10 AM
Quote from: jwilly3879 on January 11, 2014, 10:25:20 AM
It definitely pays to have a good idea what is going out. Especially true with a mill you are not familiar with. Earlier last year out normal buyer was shutdown so we shipped to another mill. I had conservatively scaled 43 logs at 7420 and when I picked up the scale slip and check it was 5400bf and 42 logs, missing was a 400bf 14 footer. Needless to say that mill will never get anymore of our logs!

Did you talk to them about it? Might have just been a mistake.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: jwilly3879 on January 11, 2014, 10:58:46 AM
No mistake, others have had similar problems, he wants only perfect logs unless his inventory is low. At our normal mill he lists anything he has scaled back for defects and any culls are set aside for pickup.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Dave Shepard on January 11, 2014, 11:05:17 AM
Well, that log cost him business. It seems some people are always trying to skim something all the time.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: plasticweld on January 11, 2014, 11:53:14 AM
I have to go by averages. I truck my own woods so scale or theft is not a problem, Mills change what they pay all of the time. What was hot yesterday may not be hot today. Scale sheets and prices per board foot mean little to me what matters is what did the load bring. You can play all sorts of games with scale and grade. I pay for all of my timber up front. Some I sell, some I saw. I estimate the number of trees that it will take per load, then average the price per load. and only get concerned when the average is off from my estimate. I am buying stuff today that may not be cut for more than a year and I have yet to find a better way. I can not micro manage each load. I look at each wood lot and what is left in the end. I did learn a long time ago if you have to ask yourself if you are making money then you are not.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Ed_K on January 11, 2014, 06:52:53 PM
 I have a good idea of bf on a load,but I'm more interested in what the load brought as I keep a handle of my cost down to the min.There's times where you need to know when a job is not going to do you any good and time to move on.
Plus your accountant will appreciate the #s.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: thecfarm on January 11, 2014, 06:55:40 PM
Ed_K,I must ask. How old is that bundle of joy in your arms now? I like that avavtar picture.  :)
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Ed_K on January 11, 2014, 07:10:25 PM
 TheCfarm, Kylee is now 5yrs old,Older sis kelsey is 10.from youngest son.Older son, Rose is 14,Joe 16,and Hanah 19.
Now I feel real old  ;D .
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Rick Alger on January 12, 2014, 06:51:11 AM
With horses my output is small so every log counts.  I keep track of average log size  and average number of logs per load by using previous scale slips.  If a scale slip is out of line, or if I'm sending to a new mill, I will scale the next load and check each top end with a crayon. That way they know I know.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: ehp on January 12, 2014, 07:47:29 AM
I'm kind of going threw this right now , the mill I send the good logs to is paying the same price per thousand but my loads are running right at 7000 feet , they were and were always 8100 or better so my price per load is down about $1,000 or more , the mill I send the small stuff and off brand trees to is running any where from 7450 feet to 8900 feet and the per about a $100 per thou less but load price is not much different on total price per load , talked to the mill on Friday after getting the scale for last 3 loads and asked why we are playing games , never got a real answer as they know I'm a legal log scaler and I got my ticket in 1981 so have been scaling logs for a long time
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: Rick Alger on January 12, 2014, 09:06:45 AM
We had a situation a while back where a scaler was shorting the scale on some truckers and adding it to other truckers he was in cahoots with. He got caught when the mill owner did some check scaling himself.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: plasticweld on January 12, 2014, 09:21:57 AM
Quote from: ehp on January 12, 2014, 07:47:29 AM
I'm kind of going threw this right now , the mill I send the good logs to is paying the same price per thousand but my loads are running right at 7000 feet , they were and were always 8100 or better so my price per load is down about $1,000 or more , the mill I send the small stuff and off brand trees to is running any where from 7450 feet to 8900 feet and the per about a $100 per thou less but load price is not much different on total price per load , talked to the mill on Friday after getting the scale for last 3 loads and asked why we are playing games , never got a real answer as they know I'm a legal log scaler and I got my ticket in 1981 so have been scaling logs for a long time

I have never been under the assumption that scaling and grading logs where an exact science except in the class room. The buyers job is to make money for the mill. Most mills work on a small percentage of profit measured in single digits. Everything they do starts out with the price paid for the logs. Their job is to buy them for as little as possible and not pith you off, it is  not to be fair to you every time. I have found that I can mention to the scaler how I thought the last loads were off and seen a difference in the next few.  I have asked many times when I have had logs that I questioned how should they have been cut, what do they like to see, which would they rather have. Each mill specializes in some thing and they may want the logs cut a certain way. The logs I cut for one mill will be cut different for another; it is up to you to know what they want by asking. Most of your money is made or lost when bucking up as you have already incurred your costs. 10 percent one way or the other is huge because it is pure profit, most guys do not spend any where near enough effort to find out what the mill can make the most money on.
If you are off by a more than a 1000 feet a load then it is time to take your logs some place else for awhile. I can not think of a logger who always sells to the same buyer and makes out better than a guy who knows the market. I think the days of being able to sell to just one mill are long gone and success today is dependent on who is the most effective at selling logs just as it is the mills job to be the most economical in buying them. I start out with the idea that they have to buy as many logs as they can as cheap as they can and my job is to sell them for as much as I can. It is an on going battle and I just view it as a chess game
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: treeslayer2003 on January 12, 2014, 09:43:43 AM
plasticweld, I do the same thing. count trees, come up with load count, average the value. I tried standing scale and come up short every time.
I thought I was the only one done it that way.
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: thenorthman on January 12, 2014, 12:15:57 PM
So I guess I'm the odd ball,  The truck come during the week when I'm generally not there, so its hard to count how many logs he's got on the truck, I just have to trust the guy.  I keep a basic Idea as to whats on the landing, but by no means do I count every stick.

As far as mills go, we have a domestic and export option here, and export has nearly always trumped domestic, by $100. or more per 1k.  They have a pickier scaler crew there so I have to send them good wood, or at the very least the best I can manage in the crap stands I get to cut, otherwise they cull it or send it to chip+saw, but in the end I still make out pretty good.  They have never done me wrong, and the loads I have been around to count have always been spot on, maybe not the best for total board foot, but then those guys can see defect while its still standing 40 miles away...
Title: Re: load count.
Post by: ehp on January 12, 2014, 08:34:20 PM
its just a game and it happens every year , the more logs that the mill gets the more the games are played , my veneer buyer is the only guy that never plays any games which I like