Greetings! I am building a timber frame house withing the next few years and I will be doing most of the work myself. So, step 1, cutting the timber. I have access to all kind of tamarack( eastern larch) on the property and was wondering if they are good to use for the bigger timber (beams, joist, etc). They are all mature, rather straight and about 5 years back my brother and I cut a few to clear out(dead ones) and the heart are still rock hard to this day( laying on the forest floor at that!).
I am out west (Oregon) and have some experience with tamarack. I expect you will get an answer about how it is not traditional to use tamarack. I also think the reason it is not traditional is because there is not all that much of it. The traditional timbers were the ones that performed and were readily available like hemlock or pine).
In my experience It should perform as a timber without hesitation. It would be interesting to hear why it will or will not work.
Kderby
thanks for the reply. I know they sometimes used it for post and beams in barns. But, maybe the wood will dry out differently in a barn do too lack of insulation. Would be nice to know if wood ages differently in a barn or a house. I am assuming yes, but then again, what do I know!
Wood will dry slightly more in a heated indoor environment, but it should only result in slight amount of extra shrinkage. But the effect is only small.
The "traditional" wood for building is usually whatever happens to be growing locally (and is of useful quality). Then you design the structure to suit the properties of that wood. Spans, beam sizes, weather protection needed etc.
Ian
Thanks for the info Ian. Now, as far as I understand, I can use Tamarack as long as the design supports the strength grading of the timber? This also leads me to my next question: can I use tamarack for pegs? I have read you usually use wood harder than the joints. I have access to red-white pine, spruce, eastern cedar, white-gray-yellow birch, balsam fir and red maple. I also have some young oaks growing, but i only have around 20 and would like to let them grow.
Tamarack is an excellent choice for timber framing, it is dense and very strong, stands up very well in timber frame and conventional framed structures. The cost is greater than the firs,hemlocks,spruces and pines so it is not common to see it used in larger framing projects, the availability of Tamarack is often not the best if you need it as the power companies buy for the pole yards regularly and in large quantities. If you have your own supply it is certainly a good choice for timber framing. The western larch or tamarack in the pacific north west that we have is very similar to your Larch and is good material.
I have cut it into framing lumber, studs, beams and planks and it is very dense, running it through a sawmill is like sawing oak and a 7° blade works best for me on an LT40HD. The small branches are easy to deal with and the logs never have any big knots so the boards are nice and straight.
Kderby is correct in that there is not all that much of it and people that have it like it and feel that its a "good tree" as I have heard them say.
I definitely appreciate all these answers. I knew I was on to something good when i registered! The next question in line: Should I use the lumber right after milling, or should I dry the lumber first? My research tends to point to using green lumber, especially tamarack, since it it apt to twist & check.
My use of tamarack has been mostly in timber framing and small boat construction, my best results where air drying for a minimum time and then inspecting the material to determine if its checking or undesirable for framing components.
Tamarack is one of the best materials for wooden shingles that can be used so all the reject boards are used to make wood shingles. Everything that comes off the mill is used. Sawdust is great for planting beds, slabs and rejected cut items are firewood and very high in BTU's as a bonus.
Cut it stack and sticker the boards, add some extra weight to your lumber stacks to help keep it from twisting and you will have some of the best lumber you can get, it is also good in joist and rafter spans as it can resist sagging along with the best of lumber species.
The boat builders love it and how it holds the fastners, it was widely sought after by shipbuilders in years past and is still used by builders of commercial fishing boats in the pacific north west.
You will need a nail gun if you going to use this stuff for framing because unless you are very experienced at nailing you will be surprised at how many nails you will bend and sometimes not be able to get them out ;D.
Tamarack/ larch are great. They somewhat fall betweeen the hardwoods and softwoods in terms of weight/strength and performance. No objections here as long as you are realistic about your expectations.
As for the pegs, you have quite a few species I would stay away from using. Pegs don't require a lot of wood and you won't need that many. A few chunks of white oak firewood or some black locust fence posts should give you plenty of material you can rive pegs out of and have confidence in. The timbers can be used green but you will want your pegs to be bone dry when you pin the frame together. If I had to pick one you named I would probably go with birch. Red maple second. Cedar will split as you drive it in and is no good strength wise and has little crush/shear resistance. Everything you don't want in a peg. Same to a lesser degree for pine, fir, and spruce. Stick with a hardwood for pegs preferably rot resistant and relatively stable when dry.
Green timbers usually work up easier than dried ones. Twisting can be an issue when used green. Try to center the heart. This will help. Cut your timbers a bit oversized, stack them in a barn or under tin with about an inch between in a place where air circulates well but out of direct sunlight. Leave for 90 days or so and then check for twist. those that twist you can re-mill square later after they have finished moving. Many logs you can tell what they will do when you saw as you can see the tension in the outer boards as you remove them Standing dead is fine and should be fairly stable. If they are laying dead, be sure you check for insect infestation although tamarack heart is fairly resistant. You will need to sharpen your tools frequently as it has a tendency to dull. It is desirable for boat building because of its shock resistance. This is a good character for timber framing as well.
Welcome and keep asking questions.
From what your telling me, I'm probably better off buying a few pieces of oak or locust and make the pegs out of that. Definitely not a probable considering I won't need that much. Should I make the pegs when the wood is green, or should i wait till the wood is dry to make the pegs?
Tamarack here in NB is a different beast than western larch. Our tamarack have spiral grain. The leader will look like it's growing in a twisted habit. It will warp quite a bit and check bad when the heart is boxed. So a squared up timber will end up with a convex shape on every face. Spruce and hemlock are the species used traditionally in post and beam barns here in NB. Saw up a couple of those tamarack (the nicest you can find) and see just how they behave, then decide before going full bore. ;)
Quote from: shiver_me_timbers on March 18, 2014, 04:21:04 PM
From what your telling me, I'm probably better off buying a few pieces of oak or locust and make the pegs out of that. Definitely not a probable considering I won't need that much. Should I make the pegs when the wood is green, or should i wait till the wood is dry to make the pegs?
Yep, buy some 16" seasoned oak firewood, split,cut or rive your pegs, square, inspect and insure straight grain, then whittle to octagon shape and finish drying in your kitchen oven. Should be able to get all you need for less than $15. If you have a local mill that cuts RR ties, you might be able to get some end cutoffs for cheap as well
Depends on where he's at, red oak can be rare as hen's teeth. If he owns property in the lower St John river valley and close to the river or Grand Lake he might get his hands on some. But this is not prime oak country here, it's on the outer fringes. You have to go south to around Bangor, Maine to find any amount of red oak. White oak doesn't exist up here, except bur oak, which is extremely rare in NB.
to swamp donkey: I have heard that our larch does twist and check a bit. although I am still determined to try it out! ( I will be doing a few pieces first like you suggested). From what I read, tamarack is a far superior wood than most in strength and rot resistance.only thing bad I heard was the twisting and checking. I had heard that if you can find a dead standing tamarack it would be less likely to twist and check because it dried out straight, is there any truth to this? I have a few cut-down tamaracks, probably about 10-12 ft logs. Is there a certain lengths I should cut them to really see the effect of twist and checking. I would assume the longer the timber the more twisting?
to swamp donkey: was just wondering if you ever used tamarack yourself or know of anyone who did( for post and beams) and what is was like working with it. Also, you mentioned spruce was common for timber back in the day, I do have quite a few spruce, so if the tamarack really is a bad idea, I could always use spruce.
I'm situated In Barachois (near Moncton), so yes, red oak is rather rare. It does not really grow unless it's run-offs from someones yard. There are a few on my property, as well as white oak, but the seeds were taken from somewhere else. I do have quite a few variety though. maple, spruce,fir,birch,cedar, cherry...
I would saw up some tamarack to see for yourself how it behaves. However, as I said earlier the old barns here were spruce in my area. And there is tamarack all over the country so it's not like it's not available. I just think it's awfully twisty stuff. Even some lumber that Jeff sawed up at the cabin in MI was pretty twisty after it began drying to the air. Make some fence posts or poles for a pole barn, but not a timber frame. That being said, I have planted some to fill in wet areas on my land. Beats willow brush any day, and grows fast. ;D
I use larch/ tamarack all the time for frames. It is very workable when green and has a great strength to weight ratio. It also looks sharp when planed and oiled! People really like it!
It does tend to twist, and will check more than other softwoods. However, this is greatly reduced if the timber is winter cut, all joinery end sealed, and assembled before it dries too much. These really make a BIG difference. Good luck with it, it's good stuff when treated with consideration!
again, I appreciate all the input. I have a feeling this forum is going to be one of my main source of help for this and many other projects to come. Like I said in another post, I did some research, and although some people claim not to use it because of the twisting, more people seem to agree that it is a good wood to use despite it`s awefull reputation to twist. Tamarack is definitely used for timber framing and many other purposes, but it seems like it is used for everything but beams. There is a timber-framing business not too far from where I live and they use tamarack but from what I understood on there site, they did not use tamarack for beams. I read lots about sills, post, flooring made of tamarack,but barely anything about beams. So, this leads me to a few more questions :) . 1- I read something about certain lumber type being IMPACT RESISTANT, does this have anything to do with strength required for beams ? 2- is it ok to mix different species of wood for your timber? for instance, using tamarack for all the post and something else for the beams?
just read something about the grain in logs and how it affects the strenght. Now, it was about full logs, so I was wondering if the same principle was applied to timber? It said something about if the slope of grain is greater than 1 in 12 (5-degrees), then it should not be permitted in beams.
Yeah it's great to mix species for maximum structural performance. Different woods definitely have different structural properties which lend themselves to different applications. I typically make all my brace stock out of hardwood, even using things like maple which I would avoid for any other applications. Right now we are working on a 36'x60' hammerbeam frame that is a mixture of Larch and W. Oak.
Tamarck/ Larch really does quite well for beams as well as posts. It behaves quite a lot like Doug Fir structurally. It is a good all around performer.
You are correct, grain slope is something to avoid in beams. Slope will dramatically weaken a beam. This can be avoided by starting with a straight log and making sure it is sawn with the heart as centered as possible. A good sawyer will do this. Especially with Larch, you don't want to try to get straight timbers out of crooked logs. Too much funky reaction wood!
Some years ago, I worked on a crew building a "Romantic Shelter" (covered bridge for pedestrians only) in Massachusetts and we used Tamarack for the decking and roof sheathing primarily for it's resistance to decay especially on flat surfaces. I've been back several times and there is no indication of decay. Would be a great choice especially for it's orange color in unexposed areas and soft gray where both snow accumulation and uv are a concern.
It has a lot to do with quality of the timber as well. A lot of people around here will portable mill knotty pasture spruce, I mean great big knots in the boards. There is a reason why commercial mills don't want it. ;D
I definitaly agree with you on having to do with the quality of the wood swampdonkey. my landlord built a new deck last fall and from my judgment then, they used crappy lumber. It has not even been a whole year and there are flaws and weakness allready starting to show in the lumber. for example, there was a knot about two inches wide on one of the boards they use for the steps. well, that knot is gone now, and one of the steps got a two inch hole in it. Not the kind of hole you want on stairs !
I believe we call it hackmatack around here, The only experience I have with it is for decking as an alternative to pressure treated. I have seen people use it for fence post as well. This is around 4 years old.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18975/Photo_on_14-03-23_at_11_04_AM__2.jpg)
I don't know much about it but never would have guessed that it would make good timber frame, with the boards they would twist a lot and required some convincing to lay down flat.
If I was to try to use them for timber framing I would cut them oversized and let them dry some then re-saw the better ones square again. Spruce will twist and split plenty too.
apparently, you have to pick your trees to avoid major twisting. Most trees have a spiraled grained going counter-clockwise. Some have a grain which goes clockwise ,and those ,you should avoid. Also, you should pick your trees without much twisting( not always apparent). Someone also mentioned treating tamarack like it is tamarack. Meaning, you have to know how it behaves and processes it accordingly.
Hilltop366, was that deck treated with anything?
No, it's natural
I hope it lasts. I've seen many try to thwart mother nature and had to replace deck boards after 10 years. ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 23, 2014, 08:30:52 PM
I hope it lasts. I've seen many try to thwart mother nature and had to replace deck boards after 10 years. ;)
It's ok I know full well the decking will rot but I figure it will out last untreated spruce , the whole idea was to not use pressure treated decking while our daughter is young.
Yes, I would hope so. However, I like a roof over me, keeps the hot sun and rain off by bald head. ;)
I too do not like sitting in the sun, my spot is over on the right under the roof.
Ah ha! ;D
Hi SMT. I have used a lot of tamarack over the years for different projects. Tamarack is the most dense and strongest of the softwoods. It is better than cedar for any project that involves the wood to be in contact with earth. When its dry it is as hard as concrete and you need an arm like Popeye to drive a spike into the wood. It will split if you drive a nail to close to the end of a board. If you are going to use it as a fence post you should let it dry for a year before putting it in the ground. It'll outlast cedar posts. I have 5 inch cedar posts in my pasture that have rotted off after 15 years. I have tamarack fence posts that have been in the ground 10 years and show no sign of decay. I use it for framing doors and windows in my horse barn. It will twist and curl (not bow - curl!) if not bound tight in a bundle or lift as it drys. It would be fantastic wood for timber framing if you can keep it straight as it drys. Incidently, tamarack makes beautiful finished flooring for the house. I'm fortunate as I have a fair amount of tamarack in my woodlot. I've used up most of the really big stuff (20" -24") but have lots of smaller trees. Tamarack trees do not like shade and do not like to be crowded.
Bill
A friend of mine told me that he saw a lot of untreated tamarack power poles in Upstate New York when he was building hydro plants years ago.
Close to 20 years ago there was talk of using untreated tamarack for cesspools and weirs and someone from either southern NB or PEI was calling around to source some large straight ones. Tamarack is not real abundant here, it's around, but be hard to get real big stuff in large quantity. It's usually cut to try and get something else to grow instead. The only tamarack I have is what I planted and some seeded in on abandoned acreages around. I think there is a wild one or two behind the house in the old orchard. Crooked as a corkscrew to and 20 foot limbs. ;D
That being said, I've never seen cedar posts rot in 15 years. I've got one over 40 years old out by the well head holding a air line that goes down in the ground. Everyone around here had cedar posts for decades and lasted eons. I can even find cedar rail fences well over 100 years old. Dad and everyone around here cut them up for good dry fire kindling. And there is still an old cedar telephone pole standing, untreated, since the 40's up by the bridge. I think if you use young cedar that is all sapwood, they will certainly rot quick.
Our tamarack here does not behave at all like western larch. And European larch and Japanese larch are different to. You do see a lot of European larch used for floors. I wouldn't try it with our tamarack unless it's a shed or grainery floor maybe. There are some European larch plantations in NB. Forestry Canada experimented some with tamarack and has trials all over the Maritimes. Any I was sent to measure was crooked looking stuff.
Tamarack doesn't stand very long when it's dead, just look at Jeff's thread on his bug killed tamarack. It don't last. A cedar snag will stand for my lifetime.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 11, 2014, 09:50:44 AM
Close to 20 years ago there was talk of using untreated tamarack for cesspools and weirs and someone from either southern NB or PEI was calling around to source some large straight ones. Tamarack is not real abundant here, it's around, but be hard to get real big stuff in large quantity. It's usually cut to try and get something else to grow instead. The only tamarack I have is what I planted and some seeded in on abandoned acreages around. I think there is a wild one or two behind the house in the old orchard. Crooked as a corkscrew to and 20 foot limbs. ;D
That being said, I've never seen cedar posts rot in 15 years. I've got one over 40 years old out by the well head holding a air line that goes down in the ground. Everyone around here had cedar posts for decades and lasted eons. I can even find cedar rail fences well over 100 years old. Dad and everyone around here cut them up for good dry fire kindling. And there is still an old cedar telephone pole standing, untreated, since the 40's up by the bridge. I think if you use young cedar that is all sapwood, they will certainly rot quick.
Our tamarack here does not behave at all like western larch. And European larch and Japanese larch are different to. You do see a lot of European larch used for floors. I wouldn't try it with our tamarack unless it's a shed or grainery floor maybe. There are some European larch plantations in NB. Forestry Canada experimented some with tamarack and has trials all over the Maritimes. Any I was sent to measure was crooked looking stuff.
Tamarack doesn't stand very long when it's dead, just look at Jeff's thread on his bug killed tamarack. It don't last. A cedar snag will stand for my lifetime.
Wander over to my place and I'll show you 15 year old rotted cedar fence posts! :)
Lots of rotten sapwood to from being the top rail or pasture cedar. You gotta use the good heartwood stuff. That 100-140 year old 5"-6" diameter stuff from the cedar swamp. ;D
I think there might be a few cedar rails from who knows when kicking around here and with moss all over them on some stone walls. We always peeled the cedar and seem like the split ones last longer,no sap wood. The round ones might start out at 6 inches,but with the sap wood gone,they would be down to 4 inches.
I have no idea where my cedar posts came from. I bought 250 of them from the Co-op years ago. They all average about 4 inches in diameter so it is quite possible that they are pasture cedar as you say. Most of them have rotted at the ground level to point there is only about 2 inches of wood left. I have several 6"-8" posts to replace the worst ones. And I have a nice cedar swamp at the back of my woodlot. Lots of big stuff there. Gotta figure out a way to move the logs out because it is all black muck and roots!